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Why both Japanese and Korean nationalists lust after Manchuria
EvilAsianDude
post Jun 11 2009, 01:46 PM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 11 2009, 02:28 PM) *
I don't know about the concept of democracy being alien to Chinese, but you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension. Where did anyone claim that the views are held by the mainstream? ]


I suggest you improve your own reading comprehension first before you criticize others. You obviously implied it. I mentioned that such a belief was not supported by the mainstream. To which you replied that South Korean politicians requested Manchuria be returned.

Obviously you wouldnt have made such a comment if you either A. knew how to read or B. actually thought it was mainstream. Why would anyone make such a remark and then claim that they wern't talking about the mainstream. Its just baffable. Why did you bring up those politicians in the first place when I explicitly stated that it wasnt supported by the mainstream and population?

QUOTE
The thread refers to Korean nationalists, and even then, where did we say that *all* Korean nationalists claimed Manchuria?The fact of the matter is, the claim exists, so pretending that it doesn't or that Chinese made it up is futile.


Then you are a liar. When did I ever claim that there wern't Koreans who wanted Manchuria? I never made such a claim. I did however say that most Koreans do not want or claim Manchuria.

To which you countered by claiming that South Korea politicians wanted Manchuria. Now tell me. If I stated that most(not all Koreans) did not want Manchuria. Then why the hell did you bring up those politicians in the first place in order to "correct me". If you actually knew how to read or thought the belief wasnt supported by the mainstream then you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place to correct me. Because there would be nothing to correct. Instead you would have just agreed with me and this debate would have never occurred.
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EazyMoney
post Jun 11 2009, 01:53 PM
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I think santaclaws, chan-ho, and some of other ultra korean nationalists here want manchuria.
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Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 01:55 PM
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QUOTE (EvilAsianDude @ Jun 11 2009, 02:46 PM) *
I suggest you improve your own reading comprehension first before you criticize others. You obviously implied it. I mentioned that such a belief was not supported by the mainstream. To which you replied that South Korean politicians requested Manchuria be returned.

Obviously you wouldnt have made such a comment if you either A. knew how to read or B. actually thought it was mainstream. Why would anyone make such a remark and then claim that they wern't talking about the mainstream. Its just baffable. Why did you bring up those politicians in the first place when I explicitly stated that it wasnt supported by the mainstream and population?


You claimed more than the idea that it wasn't supported by the mainstream (which I accept). You claimed that it was lies concocted by the Chinese to frame Koreans. You claimed that it wasn't "encouraged" by the government, yet the very fact that people like Shin Chae-Ho are considered "among the greatest of Korea's historians" indicate that there is implicit political support for their views. Shin Chae-Ho flat-out called for the reclamation of Manchuria, and your establishment calls him the greatest Korean historian. What am I supposed to think?

QUOTE
Then you are a liar. When did I ever claim that there wern't Koreans who wanted Manchuria? I never made such a claim. I did however say that most Koreans do not want or claim Manchuria.


You did more than that. Stop backpedaling.

QUOTE
To which you countered by claiming that South Korea politicians wanted Manchuria. Now tell me. If I stated that most(not all Koreans) did not want Manchuria. Then why the hell did you bring up those politicians in the first place in order to "correct me". If you actually knew how to read or thought the belief wasnt supported by the mainstream then you wouldn't have brought it up in the first place to correct me. Because there would be nothing to correct. Instead you would have just agreed with me and this debate would have never occurred.


Because politicians run the country, and the masses can be easily led. I honestly don't care what the Korean masses think; it is what your politicians think that matter. As Hermann Goering pointed out:

"Why, of course, the people don't want war, why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

Oh, but you say: "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Do you understand now why your politicians matter more than you?

Now, I've never said that most Korean politicians want Manchuria, but just the presence of a few represents a threat, because if such people can obtain political power, then that means they could, potentially, run the country.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 11 2009, 01:57 PM
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gaogouli
post Jun 11 2009, 02:00 PM
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Manchuria did belong to Korea in history.

So it is pretty legitimate for korean historians to claim it.


Even if we start a war and eventually get it back, you shouldn`t mind
because it has been ours for a long time and nonetheless you are not
related to Manchu.
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EvilAsianDude
post Jun 11 2009, 02:03 PM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 11 2009, 02:55 PM) *
You claimed more than the idea that it wasn't supported by the mainstream (which I accept). You claimed that it was lies concocted by the Chinese to frame Koreans. You claimed that it wasn't "encouraged" by the government, yet the very fact that people like Shin Chae-Ho are considered "among the greatest of Korea's historians" indicate that there is implicit political support for their views. Shin Chae-Ho flat-out called for the reclamation of Manchuria, and your establishment calls him the greatest Korean historian. What am I supposed to think?



You did more than that. Stop backpedaling.

Because politicians run the country, and the masses can be easily led. I honestly don't care what the Korean masses think; it is what your politicians think that matter. As Hermann Goering pointed out:

"Why, of course, the people don't want war, why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

Oh, but you say: "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

Now, I've never said that most Korean politicians want Manchuria, but just the presence of a few represents a threat, because if such people can obtain political power, then that means they could, potentially, run the country.


Yap yap yap completely irrelevant to the discussion we are having. Whats so difficult to understand?

I stated that most(keyword: MOST not ALL) Koreans do not believe in taking over Manchuria.

To which you brought up a negligable amount of Koreans who do believe Manchuria should be returned to Korea. Now tell me? Do you know how to read? Are you intentionally being this dumb? Did I not state that most Koreans(not all, MOST...very big difference between the two) do not want Manchuria? Why did you try to correct me in the first place if there was nothing to be corrected?

Quit making excuses and just admit that you're wrong. Speaking of which, it is a lie fabricated and greatly exaggerated by Chinese nationalists. Most Koreans do not believe in it. Only a small fringe group do. Yet Chinese nationalists somehow believe that there is a secret invasion plot or whatever. I think we can conclude that you have no idea what youre talking about. Argue all you want, it still does not change the fact that you're in denial.

This post has been edited by EvilAsianDude: Jun 11 2009, 02:05 PM
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Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (gaogouli @ Jun 11 2009, 03:00 PM) *
Manchuria did belong to Korea in history.

So it is pretty legitimate for korean historians to claim it.


Even if we start a war and eventually get it back, you shouldn`t mind
because it has been ours for a long time and nonetheless you are not
related to Manchu.


If you start a war and manage to get it back, it is yours by right of force. The idea that we wouldn't mind is, however, preposterous. The loss of Manchuria would be a great strategic and national defeat for China. Consequently, you'll have to excuse us if we don't buy into your BS. If you want Manchuria, come and bleed.
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EazyMoney
post Jun 11 2009, 02:06 PM
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If one of the politicians or president in Korea one day advocated to take back Manchuria, would you guys kick him out of office?
if you do, thanks.
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Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 02:08 PM
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QUOTE (EvilAsianDude @ Jun 11 2009, 03:03 PM) *
Yap yap yap completely irrelevant to the discussion we are having. Whats so difficult to understand?

I stated that most(keyword: MOST not ALL) Koreans do not believe in taking over Manchuria.

To which you brought up a negligable amount of Koreans who do believe Manchuria should be returned to Korea. Now tell me? Do you know how to read? Are you intentionally being this dumb? Did I not state that most Koreans(not all, MOST...very big difference between the two) do not want Manchuria? Why did you try to correct me in the first place?

Quit making excuses and just admit that you're wrong. Speaking of which, it is a lie fabricated and greatly exaggerated by Chinese nationalists. Most Koreans do not believe in it. Only a small fringe group do. Yet Chinese nationalists somehow believe that there is a secret invasion plot or whatever. I think we can conclude that you have no idea what youre talking about. Argue all you want, it still does change the fact that you're in denial.


Typical retreat tactic. Why don't you try responding to my points instead of screaming "you lost! you lost!" like some child throwing a temper tantrum? Oh wait, you can't - because I'm right and you misinterpreted me entirely in your fanatic haste to paint Chinese in a bad light. Anyone familiar with the English language would know that you said more than "most Koreans do not believe in taking Manchuria." And anyone familiar with basic logic would also recognize that nowhere did I imply that most Koreans believed in taking Manchuria. Yet, for some reason, you insist on pushing forth these two fallacies.

Desperate much?

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 11 2009, 02:08 PM
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EazyMoney
post Jun 11 2009, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE (gaogouli @ Jun 11 2009, 02:00 PM) *
Manchuria did belong to Korea in history.

So it is pretty legitimate for korean historians to claim it.


Even if we start a war and eventually get it back, you shouldn`t mind
because it has been ours for a long time and nonetheless you are not
related to Manchu.


what about the people? Majority of folks there are Han Chinese living there, If you took it back what you do with all the chinese folks?

Can we use nuke weapons to defend the motherland? We have to ask your permission first. icon_wink.gif

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gaogouli
post Jun 11 2009, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 11 2009, 03:04 PM) *
If you start a war and manage to get it back, it is yours by right of force. The idea that we wouldn't mind is, however, preposterous. The loss of Manchuria would be a great strategic and national defeat for China. Consequently, you'll have to excuse us if we don't buy into your BS. If you want Manchuria, come and bleed.


You really have to learn how to read.

1. I already said that if we wanted Manchuria, we would start a war. Nobody believes that china would give something back even if it is legally ours.

2. No Korean really cares about Manchuria. The nationalist historian you mentioned died in 1935.

you really look pathetic and paranoid right now.

This post has been edited by gaogouli: Jun 11 2009, 02:12 PM
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gaogouli
post Jun 11 2009, 02:14 PM
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QUOTE (EazyMoney @ Jun 11 2009, 03:09 PM) *
what about the people? Majority of folks there are Han Chinese living there, If you took it back what you do with all the chinese folks?

Can we use nuke weapons to defend the motherland? We have to ask your permission first. icon_wink.gif


Han Chinese settle everywhere before they claim it is their territory.
You did that in Tibet also.

I would say, send them home .


And no you don`t have the permission to use nukes, but Korea does.


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gaogouli
post Jun 11 2009, 02:17 PM
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Chinese have to stop their childish "Korea claims this and that" screaming.

Once and for all.

This post has been edited by gaogouli: Jun 11 2009, 02:17 PM
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Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 02:17 PM
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Here, I'll do you a favor and dissect your own post for you.

QUOTE (EvilAsianDude @ Jun 11 2009, 02:03 PM) *
Koreans dont want Manchuria


Hmm, I don't see a "most" here.

QUOTE
nor is such a belief encouraged/supported by the government, media, mainstream etc.


So, in other words, you're arguing three points, not one:

1. The government does not encourage or support taking Manchuria

2. The media does not encourage or support taking Manchuria

3. The mainstream does not encourage or support taking Manchuria

QUOTE
There are however a lot of delusional Chinese nationalists who believe theres a secret plot to invade China and take Manchuria. Pure fantasy and paranoia. No different from those fabricated lies by Chinese netizens who believe Koreans are trying to steal Confucius, Chinese characters, Soymilk, Mao Zedong, Michael Phelps, the moon and slice bread.


Translation: any Chinese belief that Korea might have territorial plans on Manchuria is a flat-out lie, because even though our "greatest historian" called for Korea to take Manchuria, and some of our politicians support this, we have no designs on it whatsoever.

QUOTE
Its like punching a brick wall and getting mad at it for hurting your hand. In Chinas case they make up lies about Korea in order to get mad at them and cry about Koreans hurting their feelings. biggthumpup.gif


Translation: any claim that Korea might have revanchist designs on Manchuria is a delusional lie because I said so, even though prominent Western scholars have noted that this is a reasonable fear on China's part.
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EazyMoney
post Jun 11 2009, 02:18 PM
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Good, we can feel relaxed now,

in the future if some koreans want to claim Manchuria again, pls kick the $hit$ out of them for us. Keep an eye on santaclaws, chan-ho here

thanks.

yeah, korean vigilante group.

This post has been edited by EazyMoney: Jun 11 2009, 02:18 PM
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Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE (gaogouli @ Jun 11 2009, 03:12 PM) *
You really have to learn how to read.

1. I already said that if we wanted Manchuria, we would start a war. Nobody believes that china would give something back even if it is legally ours.

2. No Korean really cares about Manchuria. The nationalist historian you mentioned died in 1935.

you really look pathetic and paranoid right now.


While you just look like the typical troll. I think I'm going to ignore you from now on, until you say something more intelligent than your typical fare.
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gaogouli
post Jun 11 2009, 02:23 PM
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You seriously believed that Korea would have invaded Manchuria in the near future?

You have to know, South Korea has lots of other problems like North Korea, the economic crisis, etc.


Koreans in general are not keen on fighting in wars.
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EvilAsianDude
post Jun 11 2009, 02:25 PM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 11 2009, 03:08 PM) *
Typical retreat tactic. Why don't you try responding to my points instead of screaming "you lost! you lost!"


Lol, im not the one retreating? Maybe you've mistaken me with yourself. You refuse to go over my correction of your comment. Instead you write a long @$$ post that had nothing to do with what we were talking(bolded for emphasis). Just because I ignored the long @$$ comment you wrote doesnt mean you've won.

It only means I dont give a rats @$$. embarassedlaugh.gif

QUOTE
like some child throwing a temper tantrum?


Im not the one throwing a fit here. By the looks of it, you are. Hence why you seem to so aggressive while I mostly dont care about your plight.

QUOTE
Oh wait, you can't - because I'm right


Reminds me of what a kindergartner would say.

QUOTE
and you misinterpreted me entirely in your fanatic haste to paint Chinese in a bad light. Anyone familiar with the English language would know that you said more than "most Koreans do not believe in taking Manchuria." And anyone familiar with basic logic would also recognize that nowhere did I imply that most Koreans believed in taking Manchuria. Yet, for some reason, you insist on pushing forth these two fallacies.

Desperate much?


Sorry but we dont need to go over this again. You simply arn't worth the effort. Im just going to repost what I wrote earlier.

I stated that most(keyword: MOST not ALL) Koreans do not believe in taking over Manchuria.

To which you brought up a negligable amount of Koreans who do believe Manchuria should be returned to Korea. Now tell me? Do you know how to read? Are you intentionally being this dumb? Did I not state that most Koreans(not all, MOST...very big difference between the two) do not want Manchuria? Why did you try to correct me in the first place if there was nothing to be corrected?

Quit making excuses and just admit that you're wrong. Speaking of which, it is a lie fabricated and greatly exaggerated by Chinese nationalists. Most Koreans do not believe in it. Only a small fringe group do. Yet Chinese nationalists somehow believe that there is a secret invasion plot or whatever. I think we can conclude that you have no idea what youre talking about. Argue all you want, it still does not change the fact that you're in denial.


Like I said earlier, you can hide behind more and more irrelevent comments but it still doesnt change the fact that you're wrong and cant refute what I stated earlier. When did I claim that all Koreans

This post has been edited by EvilAsianDude: Jun 11 2009, 02:26 PM
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Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 02:31 PM
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QUOTE (gaogouli @ Jun 11 2009, 03:23 PM) *
You seriously believed that Korea would have invaded Manchuria in the near future?

You have to know, South Korea has lots of other problems like North Korea, the economic crisis, etc.


Koreans in general are not keen on fighting in wars.


Oh, so you can be intelligent, what do you know?

I'm not "worried" about a Korean military invasion. I'm more "worried" about North Korean refugees flooding into Northeast China upon the collapse of Kim's regime, and then hooking up with their Yanbian brethren and demanding that the region be annexed into a new unified Korea and getting American support for it. Korea is not a threat to China, but Korea + US + Japan is a huge threat to China, perhaps the most relevant one in the coming decades. What is today a minority opinion among Korean nationalists could very well become a majority opinion when Korea is unified, strong, and backed by an alliance of anti-Chinese forces. That's what I'm "worried" about.
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Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 02:32 PM
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QUOTE (EvilAsianDude @ Jun 11 2009, 03:25 PM) *
Lol, im not the one retreating? Maybe you've mistaken me with yourself. You refuse to go over my correction of your comment. Instead you write a long @$$ post that had nothing to do with what we were talking(bolded for emphasis). Just because I ignored the long @$$ comment you wrote doesnt mean you've won.

It only means I dont give a rats @$$. embarassedlaugh.gif



Im not the one throwing a fit here. By the looks of it, you are. Hence why you seem to so aggressive while I mostly dont care about your plight.



Reminds me of what a kindergartner would say.



Sorry but we dont need to go over this again. You simply arn't worth the effort. Im just going to repost what I wrote earlier.

I stated that most(keyword: MOST not ALL) Koreans do not believe in taking over Manchuria.

To which you brought up a negligable amount of Koreans who do believe Manchuria should be returned to Korea. Now tell me? Do you know how to read? Are you intentionally being this dumb? Did I not state that most Koreans(not all, MOST...very big difference between the two) do not want Manchuria? Why did you try to correct me in the first place if there was nothing to be corrected?

Quit making excuses and just admit that you're wrong. Speaking of which, it is a lie fabricated and greatly exaggerated by Chinese nationalists. Most Koreans do not believe in it. Only a small fringe group do. Yet Chinese nationalists somehow believe that there is a secret invasion plot or whatever. I think we can conclude that you have no idea what youre talking about. Argue all you want, it still does not change the fact that you're in denial.


Like I said earlier, you can hide behind more and more irrelevent comments but it still doesnt change the fact that you're wrong and cant refute what I stated earlier. When did I claim that all Koreans


What's there to even refute? Your original post is out there for all to see, and I even dissected it for you. I'll let the readers decide whether you said what you said or whether you said what you said you said.

Btw, I noticed from past threads that you have a habit of retconing your argument and believing that you said something you didn't. I think the same problem is at work, here.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 11 2009, 02:35 PM
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EvilAsianDude
post Jun 11 2009, 02:34 PM
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QUOTE (gaogouli @ Jun 11 2009, 03:17 PM) *
Chinese have to stop their childish "Korea claims this and that" screaming.

Once and for all.


Agreed/

QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 11 2009, 03:17 PM) *
Here, I'll do you a favor and dissect your own post for you.



Hmm, I don't see a "most" here.


Then learn to read

Koreans dont want Manchuria nor is such a belief encouraged/supported by the government, media, mainstream etc.

I think its obvious to anyone whos not an idiot that I wasnt implying every single person in Korea. Afterall, I cant read the minds of every single Korean. To bad you dont realize this obvious fact.

QUOTE
So, in other words, you're arguing three points, not one:

1. The government does not encourage or support taking Manchuria

2. The media does not encourage or support taking Manchuria

3. The mainstream does not encourage or support taking Manchuria


It means that most Koreans do not care or want to take over Manchuria. Whats so difficult to understand?

QUOTE
Translation: any Chinese belief that Korea might have territorial plans on Manchuria is a flat-out lie, because even though our "greatest historian" called for Korea to take Manchuria, and some of our politicians support this, we have no designs on it whatsoever.


Greatest historian? Really. So they held the history olympics in Korea to see who was the greatest historian of all time.

WOW AWESOME!(it still doesnt change the fact that your arguments are idiotic, and you again fail to realize that the opinions of a historian is still the opinions of a single individual).

QUOTE
Translation: any claim that Korea might have revanchist designs on Manchuria is a delusional lie because I said so, even though prominent Western scholars have noted that this is a reasonable fear on China's part.


Read my China punching brick wall and getting mad at brick wall analogy. Its just so funny how Chinese nationalists start false rumors get so worked up at those rumors. Its like pouring gasoline(rumors) into a fire(Korea) and when they(Chinese nationalist) gets burnt(feelings hurt). Its the fires(Koreas) fault.

Whatever embarassedlaugh.gif .
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