Why both Japanese and Korean nationalists lust after Manchuria Options

[EvilAsianDude]

What's there to even refute? Your original post is out there for all to see, and I even dissected it for you. I'll let the readers decide whether you said what you said or whether you said what you said you said.

Btw, I noticed from past threads that you have a habit of retconing your argument and believing that you said something you didn't. I think the same problem is at work, here.

Wait a minute. So you claim that I dont refute your posts(nothing to refute really) while ignoring mine? LOL. Hypocrisy much?

[Mid-Night_Sun]

Koreans dont want Manchuria nor is such a belief encouraged/supported by the government, media, mainstream etc.

Korean politicians have asked for parts of Manchuria to be "returned" to them before. Do a search of the literature. You might learn something.

You claimed that it wasn't "encouraged" by the government, yet the very fact that people like Shin Chae-Ho are considered "among the greatest of Korea's historians" indicate that there is implicit political support for their views. Shin Chae-Ho flat-out called for the reclamation of Manchuria, and your establishment calls him the greatest Korean historian.

Eidolon made an appropriate response....this argument is pointless.

[Titanium]

Some of you are just way too sensitive. The only people making such claims are keyboard warrior nationalists posting on internet forums and videos on youtube. The Dongbei Region (Otherwise known as Manchuria to some) has already been successfully annexed and absorbed by China for centuries now. Demographically, it's about 100 million in population, most of which are Han. Do people honestly really think this region is going to break away anytime soon? Geez some of you just get some sensitive over such trivial issues.

[gaogouli]

Oh, so you can be intelligent, what do you know?

I'm not "worried" about a Korean military invasion. I'm more "worried" about North Korean refugees flooding into Northeast China upon the collapse of Kim's regime, and then hooking up with their Yanbian brethren and demanding that the region be annexed into a new unified Korea and getting American support for it. Korea is not a threat to China, but Korea + US + Japan is a huge threat to China, perhaps the most relevant one in the coming decades. What is today a minority opinion among Korean nationalists could very well become a majority opinion when Korea is unified, strong, and backed by an alliance of anti-Chinese forces. That's what I'm "worried" about.

I was rather talking to EazyMoney but whatever.....


We really can`t do anything against North Koreans sneaking into your country.
Maybe you can improve your border control or build up fences ?


But seriously, in case of collapse of NK and a reunification under South Korean flag,
most North Koreans would prefer to stay in Korea.


EAD is right, most Koreans don`t care about Manchuria and you can`t even quote a single relevant news article
about this.

This post has been edited by gaogouli: Jun 11 2009, 02:39 PM

[EazyMoney]

Btw, I remembered awhile back some South Korean female skaters putting out sign the chinese mountain is theirs in the competition in Jilin or harbin.

Can we assume those were dumb korean chicks and not mainstream like EAD mentioned and dismiss that ?

[Eidolon]

Then learn to read

Koreans dont want Manchuria nor is such a belief encouraged/supported by the government, media, mainstream etc.

I think its obvious to anyone whos not an idiot that I wasnt implying every single person in Korea. Afterall, I cant read the minds of every single Korean. To bad you dont realize this obvious fact.

So you can't read the minds of every single Korean but you can read the minds of most Koreans, including the government, the media, and the mainstream? Lawl. What a stupid argument. I pointed out this part of your post to emphasize the fact that you did not state "most Koreans do not believe in taking Manchuria." You said something very different, which you EXPECT people to interpret EXACTLY as you meant it, even though the sentences themselves don't say EXACTLY what you mean. The primary problem I had with your post is that you seem to think that the opinion in question is some sort of fringe opinion supported by only whackos, when in fact it is supported by some of your respected politicians and famous historians. It is NOT the equivalent of "Mao Zedong is Korean." It has very deep historical and political roots.

It means that most Koreans do not care or want to take over Manchuria. Whats so difficult to understand?

What makes you think I don't know this? That's YOUR misinterpretation, not mine.

Greatest historian? Really. So they held the history olympics in Korea to see who was the greatest historian of all time.

Someone is labeled "greatest historian" by the establishment - usually the intellectual or political establishment. Shin Chae-Ho didn't get this label for no reason. You should read into it.

WOW AWESOME!(it still doesnt change the fact that your arguments are idiotic, and you again fail to realize that the opinions of a historian is still the opinions of a single individual).

So what? The opinion of Mao Zedong is still the opinion of a single individual, but fu-k if it didn't shape the course of modern Chinese history. You're trying to argue that the Korean claim on Manchuria is a non-existent threat because "most Koreans" do not care. That's simply a logical fallacy. Most Koreans do not make Korean policy. Korean politicians make Korean policy, and their views are fundamentally shaped by the historians and academics with whom they share the leadership of the country.

The masses can be led.

[gaogouli]

So what? The opinion of Mao Zedong is still the opinion of a single individual, but fu-k if it didn't shape the course of modern Chinese history. You're trying to argue that the Korean claim on Manchuria is a non-existent threat because "most Koreans" do not care. That's simply a logical fallacy. Most Koreans do not make Korean policy. Korean politicians make Korean policy, and their views are fundamentally shaped by the historians and academics with whom they share the leadership of the country.

The masses can be led.

Hey we are talking about SOUTH Korea right?

[EvilAsianDude]

Some of you are just way too sensitive. The only people making such claims are keyboard warrior nationalists posting on internet forums and videos on youtube. The Dongbei Region (Otherwise known as Manchuria to some) has already been successfully annexed and absorbed by China for centuries now. Demographically, it's about 100 million in population, most of which are Han. Do people honestly really think this region is going to break away anytime soon? Geez some of you just get some sensitive over such trivial issues.

Thank you

Btw, I remembered awhile back some South Korean female skaters putting out sign the chinese mountain is theirs in the competition in Jilin or harbin.

Can we assume those were dumb korean chicks and not mainstream like EAD mentioned and dismiss that ?

That skaters did it as a reaction to Chinas theft of Goguryeo. They were also bashed when they went back to Korea.

And dont confuse Baekdu Mountain with Manchuria. Big difference. Baekdu mountain is mostly Korea even today. 60% of it is still controlled by North Korea. China obtained the remaining 40% in 1962 after Mao helped Kim Jong Ils father in the in the Korean war.

[Eidolon]

Let me try to sum this up for you, EvilAsianDude:

You come in here claiming that Korean designs on Manchuria is a ridiculous lie concocted by paranoid Chinese nationalists to make Koreans look bad. I point out to the fact that Chinese beliefs about Korean claims are very legitimate because they are based on historical and political claims made by members of your elite. Nowhere did I, or any other person, say that most ordinary Koreans want to invade Manchuria. That's something you put in our mouths. Instead, what we said is that Chinese have a legitimate worry about Korean revanchism due to documents and statements traceable to your historians and politicians.

This is something that Western scholars have corroborated and found reasonable, so no matter which way you cut it, China's worries about Korean designs are legitimate. This does not mean that most Koreans want to invade Manchuria. This does not mean that the Korean leadership intends to invade Manchuria. What it means is that there are rational reasons for taking precautions against Korean revanchism.

[MotorRifle]

Who cares?

[EvilAsianDude]

So you can't read the minds of every single Korean but you can read the minds of most Koreans, including the government, the media, and the mainstream? Lawl. What a stupid argument.

Are you serious? How the hell is that stupid? I noticed how you stupidly use "every" and then snidely switch to "most"(I even bolded it) halfway through your comment. As if most and every were the same thing. They arn't. Even a kindergartner can tell you they arn't Just goes to show how weak your argument is.

I cant read the minds of every single Chinese person. But I can intelligently assume that most(not all) Chinese citizens want China to be rich. There are a few Chinese citizens out there who probably want to return to the days of Mao or even total anarchy but they are in the minority. Much like how Koreans who want to invaded Manchuria are in the minority.

So what exactly is stupid? The only person producing idiotic arguments is you. I cant believe you tried to use every and all as if they were the same thing.

I pointed out this part of your post to emphasize the fact that you did not state "most Koreans do not believe in taking Manchuria." You said something very different, which you EXPECT people to interpret EXACTLY as you meant it, even though the sentences themselves don't say EXACTLY what you mean. The primary problem I had with your post is that you seem to think that the opinion in question is some sort of fringe opinion supported by only whackos, when in fact it is supported by some of your respected politicians and famous historians. It is NOT the equivalent of "Mao Zedong is Korean." It has very deep historical and political roots.

Yap yap yap yap yap. Quit ignoring what I wrote earlier. You can change the subject a billion times but it still doesnt change the fact that you cant counter my points. Heres a repost of it again

I stated that most(keyword: MOST not ALL) Koreans do not believe in taking over Manchuria.

To which you brought up a negligable amount of Koreans who do believe Manchuria should be returned to Korea. Now tell me? Do you know how to read? Are you intentionally being this dumb? Did I not state that most Koreans(not all, MOST...very big difference between the two) do not want Manchuria? Why did you try to correct me in the first place if there was nothing to be corrected?

Quit making excuses and just admit that you're wrong. Speaking of which, it is a lie fabricated and greatly exaggerated by Chinese nationalists. Most Koreans do not believe in it. Only a small fringe group do. Yet Chinese nationalists somehow believe that there is a secret invasion plot or whatever. I think we can conclude that you have no idea what youre talking about. Argue all you want, it still does not change the fact that you're in denial.

What makes you think I don't know this? That's YOUR misinterpretation, not mine.

Its your misinterpretation. Not mine. I stated that most(not all Koreans) did not believe in taking Manchuria. To which you brought up South Korean politicians to somehow refute it and claim that all Koreans supported it.

Just goes to show how much of a liar you are.

Someone is labeled "greatest historian" by the establishment - usually the intellectual or political establishment. Shin Chae-Ho didn't get this label for no reason. You should read into it.

History Olympics? He must have won a zillion history gold medals huh? Jesus you're dense. And even if he was the greatest historian the world has every seen(entirely subjective and a pointless title in reality) it still doesnt change the fact that its his and only his opinion.

So what? The opinion of Mao Zedong is still the opinion of a single individual, but fu-k if it didn't shape the course of modern Chinese history.

What does Mao have to do with this topic again?

You're trying to argue that the Korean claim on Manchuria is a non-existent threat because "most Koreans" do not care. That's simply a logical fallacy. Most Koreans do not make Korean policy. Korean politicians make Korean policy, and their views are fundamentally shaped by the historians and academics with whom they share the leadership of the country.

The masses can be led.

Answer me this. Is it every or most? You still stupidly believe it to be every.

This post has been edited by EvilAsianDude: Jun 11 2009, 03:13 PM

[EvilAsianDude]

Let me try to sum this up for you, EvilAsianDude:

You come in here claiming that Korean designs on Manchuria is a ridiculous lie concocted by paranoid Chinese nationalists to make Koreans look bad. I point out to the fact that Chinese beliefs about Korean claims are very legitimate because they are based on historical and political claims made by members of your elite. Nowhere did I, or any other person, say that most ordinary Koreans want to invade Manchuria. That's something you put in our mouths. Instead, what we said is that Chinese have a legitimate worry about Korean revanchism due to documents and statements traceable to your historians and politicians.

This is something that Western scholars have corroborated and found reasonable, so no matter which way you cut it, China's worries about Korean designs are legitimate. This does not mean that most Koreans want to invade Manchuria. This does not mean that the Korean leadership intends to invade Manchuria. What it means is that there are rational reasons for taking precautions against Korean revanchism.

Lets sum up your arguments.

1. I state that most Koreans(mainstream) do not believe in invading or taking over Manchuria. I also state that such a position is not supported by the government and media.

2. You attempt to refute my claim by bringing up South Korean politicians who want to take over Manchuria.

3. I then educate your @$$ by telling you that they are in the minority and that they do not represent the main view of the government. Furthermore I never ever claimed that there wern't Koreas who believed in such a thing. I only stated that most do not believe it and those who do are in the tiny tiny minority.

4. You then throw a hissy fit and cry about me correcting your @$$.

5. To which I remarked that you wouldn't have brought up the South Korean politician argument if you actually knew how to read and wern't such a prolific liar.


And now you know you are wrong so in order to remedy the situation you write mostly trivial and useless bull$hit that has nothing to do with what we are debating. You write such monotonous loads of crap and use it as filler material in order to somehow make others believe that you have an argument. When in reality you dont. I stated that most Koreans do not believe in the take over of Manchuria. You tried to provide evidence that they did. I easily refuted it. And now you're in denial.

This post has been edited by EvilAsianDude: Jun 11 2009, 03:15 PM

[iluvlamp]

My mom's family is manchurian and her grandparents moved from there to shanghai. I can understand why it's a great location: in between, russia, mongolia, korea, japan, etc... but I will always associate it with china. China is the most unique asian country in that it has the most diversity. Some people think china should be part of s.e. asia but that is only a small portion of the country. It is extremely ridiculous to say ALL chinese are s.e. asian - we have the most varieties in looks and cultures than ANY asian country.

[Eidolon]

Lets sum up your arguments.

1. I state that most Koreans(mainstream) do not believe in invading or taking over Manchuria. I also state that such a position is not supported by the government and media.

You also stated that the Chinese belief that Koreans have designs on Manchuria is a ridiculous lie on par with "Mao Zedong is Korean." Don't cherry pick your own post.

2. You attempt to refute my claim by bringing up South Korean politicians who want to take over Manchuria.

Agreed.

3. I then educate your @$$ by telling you that they are in the minority and that they do not represent the main view of the government. Furthermore I never ever claimed that there wern't Koreas who believed in such a thing. I only stated that most do not believe it and those who do are in the tiny tiny minority.

You, educate me? Don't make me laugh. I understand full well what the current political climate in Korea is, but I also understand that political climates change. With such prominent figures of Korean history backing your claim on Manchuria, it would be utterly foolish of me to think that Koreans would never make an attempt on Manchuria simply because they don't have the ability to do so now. Your politics are, like all politics, the politics of the possible - of course you leaders today wouldn't support reclaiming Manchuria - BECAUSE THEY CAN'T. Because they haven't even reclaimed North Korea, yet, so what's the point of making even more enemies? But that doesn't mean the desire isn't there, deep down, embedded within the fabrics of Korean nationalism.

4. You then throw a hissy fit and cry about me correcting your @$$.

5. To which I remarked that you wouldn't have brought up the South Korean politician argument if you actually knew how to read and wern't such a prolific liar.

No, I then correct you on your misinterpretation of what I said, which you then try to backpedal.

And now you know you are wrong so in order to remedy the situation you write mostly trivial and useless bull$hit that has nothing to do with what we are debating. You write such monotonous loads of crap and use it as filler material in order to somehow make others believe that you have an argument. When in reality you dont. I stated that most Koreans do not believe in the take over of Manchuria. You tried to provide evidence that they did. I easily refuted it. And now you're in denial.

Lawl. You really think you're something, don't you? Too bad your bluff doesn't work with me. I know what you said. I know what I said. And it is not what you said you said, or what you said I said.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 11 2009, 03:25 PM

[EvilAsianDude]

You also stated that the Chinese belief that Koreans have designs on Manchuria is a ridiculous lie on par with "Mao Zedong is Korean." Don't cherry pick your own post.

Learn to read

There are however a lot of delusional Chinese nationalists who believe theres a secret plot to invade China and take Manchuria. Pure fantasy and paranoia. No different from those fabricated lies by Chinese netizens who believe Koreans are trying to steal Confucius, Chinese characters, Soymilk, Mao Zedong, Michael Phelps, the moon and slice bread.

Obviously im distinguishing between groups.

You, educate me? Don't make me laugh. I understand full well what the current political climate in Korea is, but I also understand that political climates change. With such prominent figures of Korean history backing your claim on Manchuria, it would be utterly foolish of me to think that Koreans would never make an attempt on Manchuria simply because they don't have the ability to do so now. Your politics are, like all politics, the politics of the possible - of course you leaders today wouldn't support reclaiming Manchuria - BECAUSE THEY CAN'T. Because they haven't even reclaimed North Korea, yet, so what's the point of making even more enemies? But that doesn't mean the desire isn't there, deep down, embedded within the fabrics of Korean nationalism.

LOL you still dont get it do you? Face it, you cant win this argument. You've lost a long time ago. Its pointless of you to argue otherwise.

I stated that most not all Koreans did not believe in invading Manchuria. You can cry, whine, lie and cut yourself for all eternity and you will still not change this fact. Claiming that a certain Korean politician or unknown historian supported such a cause still does not change the fact you're blatantly wrong. Because in the end the opinion of that historian is still the opinion of one and only one man. Unless of course that historian is a Siamese twin

Most Koreans do not want Manchuria. Quit arguing otherwise and just admit that you lost. Your idiotic Mao argument and "every" "all" argument has already been effortlessly shot down with kindergarten logic. Quit humiliating yourself further.

No, I then correct you on your misinterpretation of what I said, which you then try to backpedal.

You didn't correct my arguments. You ignored it entirely. Which is why you refuse to bring it up again. And mind elucidating on how exactly you "corrected" me? Im sorry but isnt the entire reason why we are arguing because I corrected you and your ego just couldnt accept it?

Lawl. You really think you're something, don't you? Too bad your bluff doesn't work with me. I know what you said. I know what I said. And it is not what you said you said, or what you said I said.

We get it. You've lost and now youre mad. No need to prolong your agony. Just admit that you're wrong. Heck you dont even need to admit it. You can simply vanish from this topic.

This post has been edited by EvilAsianDude: Jun 11 2009, 03:36 PM

[antimatter]

You, educate me? Don't make me laugh. I understand full well what the current political climate in Korea is, but I also understand that political climates change. With such prominent figures of Korean history backing your claim on Manchuria, it would be utterly foolish of me to think that Koreans would never make an attempt on Manchuria simply because they don't have the ability to do so now. Your politics are, like all politics, the politics of the possible - of course you leaders today wouldn't support reclaiming Manchuria - BECAUSE THEY CAN'T. Because they haven't even reclaimed North Korea, yet, so what's the point of making even more enemies? But that doesn't mean the desire isn't there, deep down, embedded within the fabrics of Korean nationalism.

Excellent point, kind of remind me of what North Vietnamese government did. Early 1970s, because VC needed help from China, they agreed and renounced their claim on South China Sea islands and stated them belonging to China in official anouncement.

But recently, Vietnam started to claim those islands as they submitted their claim to the UN based on history.

Things can definitely change. If something stated in their history and they would come back one way or another down the line.

This post has been edited by antimatter: Jun 11 2009, 03:38 PM

[Eidolon]

Learn to read

There are however a lot of delusional Chinese nationalists who believe theres a secret plot to invade China and take Manchuria. Pure fantasy and paranoia. No different from those fabricated lies by Chinese netizens who believe Koreans are trying to steal Confucius, Chinese characters, Soymilk, Mao Zedong, Michael Phelps, the moon and slice bread.

Obviously im distinguishing between groups.

Irrelevant. Your point is that such beliefs are fantasy and paranoia. I am correcting you.

LOL you still dont get it do you. Face it, you cant win this argument. Its already lost.

I stated that most not all Koreans did not believe in invading Manchuria. You can cry, whine, lie and cut yourself for all eternity and you will still not change this fact. Claiming that a certain Korean politician or unknown historian supported such a cause still does not change the fact that im wrong and you're wrong. Because in the end the opinion of that historian is still the opinion of one and only one man. Unless of course that historian is a Siamese twin

Most Koreans do not want Manchuria. Quit arguing otherwise and just admit that you lost.

Laugh out loud. You don't even know what the debate was and you're claiming that I lost it. How utterly clueless. Repeat after me: the debate was NEVER over whether most Koreans believed in invading Manchuria or not. The debate was ALWAYS over whether it is legitimate to worry about Korean designs on Manchuria. Most Germans did not want to fight World War II, but Germany DID fight World War II. The majority opinion is no guarantee against the policy of the nation-state. This is the point that you've refused to even acknowledge, much less mount a response to.

You didn't correct my arguments. You ignored it entirely. Which is why you refuse to bring it up again. And mind elucidating on how exactly you "corrected" me? Im sorry but isnt the entire reason why we are arguing because I corrected you and your ego just couldnt accept it?

We get it. You've lost and your mad. No need to prolong your agony. Just admit that you're wrong. Heck you dont even need to admit it. You can simply vanish from this topic.

Have you considered the possibility that I ignored your "arguments" because they were never RELEVANT? I understand now why you feel you've won - you don't even get what the debate was over, so of course everything I said seemed like irrelevant filler - because you never got the point in the first place.

Thanks for the clarification, and no, I'm not mad at all. Amused is more like it - by the utter waste of time that was your attempt to debate me.

[EvilAsianDude]

Irrelevant. Your point is that such beliefs are fantasy and paranoia. I am correcting you.

You claim to be correcting me by ignoring all the good points I make.

You are an epic comedian.

Laugh out loud. You don't even know what the debate was and you're claiming that I lost it. How utterly clueless. Repeat after me: the debate was NEVER over whether most Koreans believed in invading Manchuria or not. The debate was ALWAYS over whether it is legitimate to worry about Korean designs on Manchuria. Most Germans did not want to fight World War II, but Germany DID fight World War II. The majority opinion is no guarantee against the policy of the nation-state. This is the point that you've refused to even acknowledge, much less mount a response to.

Again with the irrelevent filler comments that have nothing to do with what we are talking about. Quit wasting my time with useless trash.

We are discussing about how most Koreans do not believe or want to invade Manchuria. Not some irrelevent crap about world war 2 and what not. If you have nothing intelligent left to say, just admit it. Quit being an immature brat and just give up. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Not because you have any legitimate arguments. You bring up Mao, World war 2, historians and useless crap that for the life in me cannot understand what purpose they serve in this argument we are having.

Have you considered the possibility that I ignored your "arguments" because they were never RELEVANT? I understand now why you feel you've won - you don't even get what the debate was over, so of course everything I said seemed like irrelevant filler - because you never got the point in the first place.

Thanks for the clarification, and no, I'm not mad at all. Amused is more like it - by the utter waste of time that was your attempt to debate me.

You've lost kid. Why else would you ignore my arguments. Why else would you change the subject to something entirely different from what we were originally discussing. Face the facts. Most Koreas do not want or claim Manchuria. Now go cry somewhere else.

[Eidolon]

Again with the irrelevent filler comments that have nothing to do with what we are talking about. Quit wasting my time with useless trash.

We are discussing about how most Koreans do not believe or want to invade Manchuria. Not some irrelevent crap about world war 2 and what not. If you have nothing intelligent left to say, just admit it. Quit being an immature brat and just give up. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Not because you have any legitimate arguments. You bring up Mao, World war 2, historians and useless crap that for the life in me cannot understand what purpose they serve in this argument we are having.

You are utterly hopeless. You try to frame the debate in a direction that it never took in order to put words in my mouth, all so you could claim that I made utterly ridiculous claims that I never made, so that in the end you could claim that I "lost" and am only trying to equivocate my way out of the debate. This is the behavior of a troll, not a debater.

You've lost kid. Why else would you ignore my arguments. Why else would you change the subject to something entirely different from what we were originally discussing. Face the facts. Most Koreas do not want or claim Manchuria. Now go cry somewhere else.

I clarified on several occasions exactly what I am debating, so you've had plenty of warning. The fact that you would still think that my argument is "most Koreans want to invade Manchuria" is a testament to one of two things: 1) that you're a troll or 2) that you don't know how to read. Either way, this is a true waste of time. I'm not "debating" you on your little fantasy strawman of whether most Koreans want to invade Manchuria. That was never my claim, and is a blatant and absolute misinterpretation of what I said. You should be ashamed.

As for "we" - I'm pretty sure most of us here do not think of your original post as a part of this discussion. "We" were debating what China should do about Japanese and Korean nationalist designs on Manchuria; "you" charged in with a strawman and then claimed that _I_ made it. I can only shake my head at this turn of events.

[hanren]

Or it could be paranoia on the Korean nationalist side that they think Chinese nationalists would get bored enough to claim that Korean nationalists want to promote a "greater Korea" concept by annexing Manchuria as well as creating a so called Altaic union just to make Korean nationalists look bad.

I think both sides are blowing it out of proportion. I think there probably were some fanatic Korean nationalists that promoted the annexation of Manchuria. Then some Chinese nationalists caught wind of that and thought all Korean nationalists were crazy enough to promote that idea. But it's pointless because Manchuria isn't going anywhere, even if there are fanatics in the Korean population their government would think hard before on acting on this idea.

This post has been edited by hanren: Jun 11 2009, 05:57 PM