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Why both Japanese and Korean nationalists lust after Manchuria
Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 04:17 PM
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QUOTE (hanren @ Jun 11 2009, 05:10 PM) *
Or it could be paranoia on the Korean nationalist side that they think Chinese nationalists would get bored enough to claim that Korean nationalists want to promote a "greater Korear" concept by annexing Manchuria as well as creating a so called Altaic union just to make Korean nationalists look bad. SHOCKED.gif

I think both sides are blowing it out of proportion. I think there probably were some fanatic Korean nationalists that promoted the annexation of Manchuria. Then some Chinese nationalists caught wind of that and thought all Korean nationalists were crazy enough to promote that idea. But it's pointless because Manchuria isn't going anywhere, even if there are fanatics in the Korean population their government would think hard before on acting on this idea.


The problem is that people don't know the facts. It is true that Chinese nationalists have made up certain false rumors about Korean nationalists and spread them around (ie "Mao Zedong is Korean"), but this is not one of them. Korean politicians *have* claimed Manchuria, and so have their historians. These claims are, in fact, based on even older claims from centuries ago, and represent a key component of Chinese geopolitical concerns about a unified Korea. It is, in some sense, central to China's Korean policy and this is not even up for debate. The fact that EvilAsianDude would come in and claim that it was all a lie made up by paranoid Chinese nationalists shows that he is in utter denial.
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Titanium
post Jun 11 2009, 04:26 PM
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Eidolon, while I can see where you're coming from , I think getting a little too concerned over this matter is rather silly because China clearly has the upper hand in regards to the Dongbei Region territorially. China's population occupies virtually all of the land, whatever ethnic groups outside of the Han perimeter have either been wiped out or completely assimilated. Honestly, I think the US fearing an ethnic Mexican takeover of her southwestern states is more of a valid concern than China losing Manchuria. The only people making noise are faceless keyboard warriors behind a computer screen that have about as much power to change the situation as the boogers in my noose. I mean no harm done, it's all good bro.
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hanren
post Jun 11 2009, 04:26 PM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 11 2009, 05:17 PM) *
The problem is that people don't know the facts. It is true that Chinese nationalists have made up certain false rumors about Korean nationalists and spread them around (ie "Mao Zedong is Korean"), but this is not one of them. Korean politicians *have* claimed Manchuria, and so have their historians. These claims are, in fact, based on even older claims from centuries ago, and represent a key component of Chinese geopolitical concerns about a unified Korea. It is, in some sense, central to China's Korean policy and this is not even up for debate. The fact that EvilAsianDude would come in and claim that it was all a lie made up by paranoid Chinese nationalists shows that he is in utter denial.


I think "Mao Zedong" or "Jesus" was Korean thing was made out of pure sarcasm. I mean who would actually take these ridiculous claims seriously, save for a few thick headed people that have a paranoia problem.

I notices that the problem Korean Nationalists have, they are very keen on detecting nationalism from other groups but do not realize that the are exhibiting the same nationalist feelings.

This is more of a war of words anyways. Even if Korean politicians made the claim, they would know it would be suicide if they acted on it.

This post has been edited by hanren: Jun 11 2009, 05:58 PM
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baal
post Jun 11 2009, 04:38 PM
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There are two really smart guys on this thread. They're engaged in a contentious dispute. They're styles of argument are different. One uses a rapier and the other uses a sabre. But before this thread is over they're going to be acting like monkeys throwing feces at each other. I love this stuff.
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Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (Titanium @ Jun 11 2009, 05:26 PM) *
Eidolon, while I can see where you're coming from , I think getting a little too concerned over this matter is rather silly because China clearly has the upper hand in regards to the Dongbei Region territorially. China's population occupies virtually all of the land, whatever ethnic groups outside of the Han perimeter have either been wiped out or completely assimilated. Honestly, I think the US fearing an ethnic Mexican takeover of her southwestern states is more of a valid concern than China losing Manchuria. The only people making noise are faceless keyboard warriors behind a computer screen that have about as much power to change the situation as the boogers in my noose. I mean no harm done, it's all good bro.


Maybe, but I'd say the same for EvilAsianDude: the fact that Korea's politicians and historians have made claims on Manchuria does not imply that all or most Koreans support them, or that China is going to treat Korea as if it were hell-bent on invading Manchuria. The middle ground here would be to accept that China has a legitimate worry about Korean revanchism, but that Korean revanchism also isn't that powerful or realistic of a movement, today. I happen to take that stance but in this thread, at least, we're operating under the assumption that we're talking about Korean nationalists who do believe in invading Manchuria and in how we might defend against them. That's what I got out of the thread title, anyways.

QUOTE
There are two really smart guys on this thread. They're engaged in a contentious dispute. They're styles of argument are different. One uses a rapier and the other uses a sabre. But before this thread is over they're going to be acting like monkeys throwing feces at each other. I love this stuff.


Perceptive. I'll try to cool it down a notch, assuming EvilAsianDude is still interested in the debate once he realizes that I'm not trying to argue that "most Koreans want to invade Manchuria."

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 11 2009, 04:55 PM
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type52
post Jun 11 2009, 05:05 PM
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korea will get its asses kicked

This post has been edited by type52: Jun 11 2009, 05:06 PM
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MotorRifle
post Jun 11 2009, 05:11 PM
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QUOTE (hanren @ Jun 11 2009, 04:10 PM) *
Or it could be paranoia on the Korean nationalist side that they think Chinese nationalists would get bored enough to claim that Korean nationalists want to promote a "greater Korear" concept by annexing Manchuria as well as creating a so called Altaic union just to make Korean nationalists look bad. SHOCKED.gif

I think both sides are blowing it out of proportion. I think there probably were some fanatic Korean nationalists that promoted the annexation of Manchuria. Then some Chinese nationalists caught wind of that and thought all Korean nationalists were crazy enough to promote that idea. But it's pointless because Manchuria isn't going anywhere, even if there are fanatics in the Korean population their government would think hard before on acting on this idea.


Most Chinese in China consider such thing as another internet korean joke, along with the Korean claimed everything jokes, etc.

I dont really understand why the guys here make it such a serious deal? They claim that? OK, have a good laugh and thats it.
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MotorRifle
post Jun 11 2009, 05:13 PM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 11 2009, 04:53 PM) *
Perceptive. I'll try to cool it down a notch, assuming EvilAsianDude is still interested in the debate once he realizes that I'm not trying to argue that "most Koreans want to invade Manchuria."


I bet the korean guy enjoy the feeling that as if "Korean's threat has been seriously taken" very much, so be a good guy and satify this poor boy's only emotional needs kiss.gif
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Manders
post Jun 11 2009, 05:56 PM
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Returned to Korea? Lol, now that's funny.
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Chan-Ho
post Jun 11 2009, 07:04 PM
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The basis of what both Eidolon and EAD are arguing about are both Semantical. Let's leave it at that.

I have never had any designs about Korea annexing Manchuria. Any objection I've had about Chinese control over Manchuria were due to China's North-East project and distortions of Korean history, which were obviously conducted to justify Chinese imperialism in the region both in the present and future. Thus, the real reason Korea should be concerned about Manchurian is not for its own territorial expansion, but China's pursuit of hegemony in the region.

At the end of the day, Koreans need to look at the cost/benefit of territorial annexation of Manchuria in the context of relations with China.

1. We must consider the current geopolitical reality.
- Manchuria is mostly populated with Han Chinese.
- Korea has enough on its hand with the current state of North Korea.

2. Territorial conquest is nearly impossible these days especially against a nuclear armed China.

3. Korea has an increasingly greater economic and cultural relationship with China in which benefits greatly outwiegh the costs, at least in the short term.

4. China is a communist government that does not allow for referendums on regional autonomy.

Also, we must consider the fact that there are much more profitable avenues that Korea can project its power, including economic and cultural. Thus, it is strategic, and possibly inevitable, for Korea to pursue further integrated economic and cultural relationships with China. The only problem lies within imperialistic interests of the Chinese government. China, on the other hand, has the ability to project its political power in the North-East region and given the rhetoric of Chinese nationalists on the forum and the policies of what is communist regime in China, we can see that it is Korea that should be concerned about Chinese intentions in the long-term. In actuality, it is Chinese provacations against the Korean people including distortion of our history and support of the North Korean regime that demonstrates the China is the true threat to peace and stability in the region. Thus, political containment of China through alliances while pursuing further economic and cultural integration with China is probably the best strategy of Korea, at least in the short to medium term. Considering the cost/benefit of the situation, it is pretty clear that Koreans should have no intentions on the territory when there are better opportunities and benefits for the Korean people through other channels.

This post has been edited by Chan-Ho: Jun 11 2009, 07:07 PM
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hanren
post Jun 11 2009, 08:24 PM
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QUOTE (Chan-Ho @ Jun 11 2009, 08:04 PM) *
The basis of what both Eidolon and EAD are arguing about are both Semantical. Let's leave it at that.

I have never had any designs about Korea annexing Manchuria. Any objection I've had about Chinese control over Manchuria were due to China's North-East project and distortions of Korean history, which were obviously conducted to justify Chinese imperialism in the region both in the present and future. Thus, the real reason Korea should be concerned about Manchurian is not for its own territorial expansion, but China's pursuit of hegemony in the region.

At the end of the day, Koreans need to look at the cost/benefit of territorial annexation of Manchuria in the context of relations with China.

1. We must consider the current geopolitical reality.
- Manchuria is mostly populated with Han Chinese.
- Korea has enough on its hand with the current state of North Korea.

2. Territorial conquest is nearly impossible these days especially against a nuclear armed China.

3. Korea has an increasingly greater economic and cultural relationship with China in which benefits greatly outwiegh the costs, at least in the short term.

4. China is a communist government that does not allow for referendums on regional autonomy.

Also, we must consider the fact that there are much more profitable avenues that Korea can project its power, including economic and cultural. Thus, it is strategic, and possibly inevitable, for Korea to pursue further integrated economic and cultural relationships with China. The only problem lies within imperialistic interests of the Chinese government. China, on the other hand, has the ability to project its political power in the North-East region and given the rhetoric of Chinese nationalists on the forum and the policies of what is communist regime in China, we can see that it is Korea that should be concerned about Chinese intentions in the long-term. In actuality, it is Chinese provacations against the Korean people including distortion of our history and support of the North Korean regime that demonstrates the China is the true threat to peace and stability in the region. Thus, political containment of China through alliances while pursuing further economic and cultural integration with China is probably the best strategy of Korea, at least in the short to medium term. Considering the cost/benefit of the situation, it is pretty clear that Koreans should have no intentions on the territory when there are better opportunities and benefits for the Korean people through other channels.


More paranoid on the Korean's part. China is perfectly willing to co-operate with S.Korea if S.Korean wants it. But if S.Koreans keep treating China like an enemy more than a potential partner then all I can say is self fulfilling prophecy. Which i don't really think that's the case, it might be just the Koreans at AF that have issues.

From what you wrote I get the feeling that the only reason you don't support the annexation of Manchuria is because it's impossible, but if it were possible you would be for it. And any action that S.Korea takes in Manchuria would be to counter Chinese imperialism and therefore is not a sign of imperialism of the part of the S.Koreans. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just saying this is what i got from reading what you wrote.

I don't think the Chinese government is out to conquer anyone out right. At most they are probably going to imitate what the U.S and Russians has going. It's almost like a natural progression for countries this size, it's sucks for smaller countries but that's how it works.

This post has been edited by hanren: Jun 11 2009, 08:30 PM
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Eidolon
post Jun 11 2009, 09:34 PM
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QUOTE
Considering the cost/benefit of the situation, it is pretty clear that Koreans should have no intentions on the territory when there are better opportunities and benefits for the Korean people through other channels.


I don't disagree with your analysis with respect to the present day, but once Korea is unified, things may change. At that time, the threat, albeit still small, would not be non-existent. Consequently, it is not irrational for China to worry and to take precautions.

As for what is profitable, what would be most profitable in the long-term would be a push towards terraforming and colonizing space - at which point these territorial disputes on earth would be seen as no more than petty squabbles. But humanity being petty children to begin with, such a move appears impossible in the short-term. Consequently, China must be prepared to defend its territorial interests against would-be challengers, even if those challenges never actually materialize. As I've said in other threads, of course no wants war or conflict, but it is better to be prepared than to be caught with your pants down.
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Titanium
post Jun 11 2009, 10:45 PM
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It's not unreasonable for China to take precautions in regards to Manchuria, after all that was once a huge problem spot for imperialism against China in the past. It's just that the threat there is EXTREMELY small and minor. There are other regions that China should be much more focused on.
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gaogouli
post Jun 12 2009, 01:26 AM
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Obviously there are some slightly educated chinese like Eidolon who feel guilty about Manchuria.
They know it belonged to Korea so they know in case
some korean nationalists claim it, they have some grounds to do so.

Therefore he tries to put down these claims even if there aren`t any
at the moment.

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haozhao
post Jun 12 2009, 01:32 AM
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Manchuria's population is 200 million, of that at least 180 million are Han Chinese.

That is three times Korea's population. There is no way that Korea or Japan can ever gain any control of this region. China is too powerful. Such a discussion is as plausible as stating that Cuba will take Florida. It's just not a possibility.

Plus, China is industrializing more rapidly. A lot of that base is in Northeastern China. That region will become very powerful in the coming decades.
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Chan-Ho
post Jun 12 2009, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 11 2009, 07:34 PM) *
I don't disagree with your analysis with respect to the present day, but once Korea is unified, things may change. At that time, the threat, albeit still small, would not be non-existent. Consequently, it is not irrational for China to worry and to take precautions.

As for what is profitable, what would be most profitable in the long-term would be a push towards terraforming and colonizing space - at which point these territorial disputes on earth would be seen as no more than petty squabbles. But humanity being petty children to begin with, such a move appears impossible in the short-term. Consequently, China must be prepared to defend its territorial interests against would-be challengers, even if those challenges never actually materialize. As I've said in other threads, of course no wants war or conflict, but it is better to be prepared than to be caught with your pants down.



Yes, and the problem is that China's "taking of pre-cauions" includes distorting Korean history and supporting the tyrannical North Korean regime, among other imperialistic policies... are Chinese nationalists so blind to see why Koreans might be pissed and why we call on the world to recognize this growing threat to stability in the region?
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Eidolon
post Jun 12 2009, 02:07 AM
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QUOTE (gaogouli @ Jun 12 2009, 02:26 AM) *
Obviously there are some slightly educated chinese like Eidolon who feel guilty about Manchuria.
They know it belonged to Korea so they know in case
some korean nationalists claim it, they have some grounds to do so.

Therefore he tries to put down these claims even if there aren`t any
at the moment.


You are deluded. There is little that Chinese should feel guilty about with regards to Manchuria. Manchuria truly and rightfully belongs to China, the winner of the race for that land. I might feel a bit guilty about Tibet, and about Xinjiang, and about parts of Inner Mongolia, but not about Manchuria. I know its history, and China's claim is just - our people moved there legally; we were encouraged by the land's original owners; it is a strategic region instrumental to China's safety and security. You seldom get more legitimate claims on territory than that.

By contrast, Korea's claim amounts to "oh we lived there thousands of years ago!" By that fu-king logic Europeans can claim Central Asia and all of humanity can claim Africa.

This post has been edited by Eidolon: Jun 12 2009, 02:11 AM
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haozhao
post Jun 12 2009, 02:12 AM
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QUOTE (Chan-Ho @ Jun 12 2009, 01:36 AM) *
Yes, and the problem is that China's "taking of pre-cauions" includes distorting Korean history and supporting the tyrannical North Korean regime, among other imperialistic policies... are Chinese nationalists so blind to see why Koreans might be pissed and why we call on the world to recognize this growing threat to stability in the region?


China has been pushing North Korea to open. Its recent acts have been on its own accord and have been against China's wishes.

The Koguryo issue was supposed to be an academic one, but it became politicized. Koguryo was a kingdom set up by ancestors of several of China's Northeastern Minorities including the Chaoxian Zu, the Korean ethnics, the Manchus and others. Therefore, in relation to China's current multi-cultural system, it was certainly related to Chinese history and of that region. But Koreans viewed it as Han Chinese claiming Koguryo was Han, which was never the case.

I personally do not care about the issue and I think the flare up was quite stupid.

Let's face some facts. Are Koreans and Japanese ever going to like China? No. Because China is the biggest country next to small ones, of course the small ones will always feel some kind of threat. However, the fact is that China is not acting antagonistic towards either country, trade is booming, and all three countries are likely to co-exist and continue cordial relations because of trade.

We don't have to like each other, we just need to exist by one another.
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haozhao
post Jun 12 2009, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 12 2009, 02:07 AM) *
You are deluded. There is little that Chinese should feel guilty about with regards to Manchuria. Manchuria truly and rightfully belongs to China, the winner of the race for that land. I might feel a bit guilty about Tibet, and about Xinjiang, and about parts of Inner Mongolia, but not about Manchuria. I know its history, and China's claim is just - our people moved there legally; we were encouraged by the land's original owners; it is a strategic region instrumental to China's safety and security. You seldom get more legitimate claims on territory than that.

By contrast, Korea's claim amounts to "oh we lived there thousands of years ago!" By that fu-king logic Europeans can claim Central Asia and all of humanity can claim Africa.


I agree. The Manchurians, the original owners of that land, BECAME Chinese. And thus, they eventually moved Han Chinese there to consolidate their power, as they became Hans essentially as well.

Manchuria is an inseperable part of China. Anyways, the Manchus are the ones who fu-ked up China, so they better stick with us now.
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gaogouli
post Jun 12 2009, 02:14 AM
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QUOTE (Eidolon @ Jun 12 2009, 02:07 AM) *
You are deluded. There is little that Chinese should feel guilty about with regards to Manchuria. Manchuria truly and rightfully belongs to China, the winner of the race for that land. I might feel a bit guilty about Tibet, and about Xinjiang, and about parts of Inner Mongolia, but not about Manchuria. I know its history, and China's claim is just - our people moved there legally; we were encouraged by the land's original owners; it is a strategic region instrumental to China's safety and security. You seldom get more legitimate claims on territory than that.

By contrast, Korea's claim amounts to "oh we lived there thousands of years ago!" By that fu-king logic Europeans can claim Central Asia and all of humanity can claim Africa.


Chinese claims are based on Manchu ruling China during Qing dynasty.

Before, they have NEVER had anything to do with Manchuria.


Korean claims are more justified than chinese.
But you still need to post some quotes here to prove how "serious" these Korean claims are.
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