the taiwanese aren't chinese,now Options

[p0734334]

^ George Washington was an Englishman haha. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

This post has been edited by p0734334: Oct 24 2009, 10:19 PM

[sunt]

In what year did people living on the island of Taiwan cease to become Chinese and became Taiwanese? In 1949? Because back then, almost nobody ever heard of that concept, and most people living on Taiwan right now are the immigration pack of those who moved there in 1949 or descendants of that pack. .

I caught you lying again.
Taiwan residents have lived there for the past 500 years.
80 percent of the Taiwan residents are local Taiwanese.

In 1949, kmt who got kicked out of China, and escaped to Taiwan in shame with their 2 million soldiers. This group make up only 20 percent of the population. They used guns and took over all the Taiwan government and large businesses. Thus giving the kmt a unethical advantage in Taiwan since their illegal occupation of Taiwan.

You sewoth need to stop lying.
kmt supporters like you are very good at lying and posting false information.
I am here to stop your lies.

[mndeg]

most taiwanese have been in taiwan longer than americans have in america. in fact british involvement was far far greater in America than China in Taiwan

This post has been edited by mndeg: Oct 24 2009, 11:49 PM

[SCO]

most taiwanese have been in taiwan longer than americans have in america. in fact british involvement was far far greater in America than China in Taiwan

The sentence doesn't make any logical sense.

"Taiwanese" in Taiwan were/ are Chinese. They were part of Chinese nation and people, and Taiwan were part of jurisdiction of China.

I think you are confusing yourself.

In fact after 1949, still majority of Taiwanese see themselves as Chinese. Only after 2000+ , in years of Chen Shui Bian, the poll result start to shift significantly.

[BurdenOfAges]

Race has nothing to do with political identity.

Race does not determine membership in the same state, if that's what you mean.

But clearly, race has a lot to do with what is politically feasible. For example, given a multi-racial country, a racial minority usually faces much more opposition to its rule than a racial majority.

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Oct 25 2009, 10:32 AM

[sunt]

The sentence doesn't make any logical sense.

"Taiwanese" in Taiwan were/ are Chinese. They were part of Chinese nation and people, and Taiwan were part of jurisdiction of China.

I think you are confusing yourself.

In fact after 1949, still majority of Taiwanese see themselves as Chinese. Only after 2000+ , in years of Chen Shui Bian, the poll result start to shift significantly.

Taiwanese are not Chinese. Taiwan was never a part of China. Thoughout Mainland China's history. China was too busy fighting themselves or getting occupied by foriegn powers like japan, and europeans. China never had the chance to seek out foreign islands like Taiwan.

The local Taiwanese has been on the island for 500 years. They make up 80 percent of the population.

The kmt, who got kicked out of china in shame, in 1949 and had to escape to Taiwan with their 2 million soldiers. They make up 20 percent of the population.

Because the kmt used guns , repressed the 80 percent of the Taiwanese, and mass murdered 25,000 local Taiwanese in cold blood. The local Taiwanese formed the DPP political party.

I will not allow you sco to post any lies here.
I will not allow anyone to post lies here.

[sunt]

Taiwan's 400 years of history

Important milestones from the early 1600s to the present
Pré - 1600s
Originally, Taiwan was settled by people of Malay-Polynesian descent, who initially inhabited the low-lying coastal plains. They called their island Pakan. Here is a detail of an old Dutch navigational map with this name on it.


During the subsequent settlement by the Dutch and the waves of settlers from China, the aborigines retreated to the hills and mountains, and became the "mountain people."

The 17th Century
The island's modern history goes back to around 1590, when the first Western ship passed by the island, and Jan Huygen van Linschoten, a Dutch navigator on a Portugese ship, exclaimed "Ilha Formosa" (meaning "Beautiful island"), which became its name for the next four centuries.


Taiwan in the Dutch period
Interestingly enough, the most comprehensive historical records on Taiwan go back some 350 years, to the period of the Dutch occupation, 1624-1662. When the Dutch East Indies Company arrived, they found only the aborigine population on the island: there were no signs of any administrative structure of the Chinese Imperial Government. Thus, at that time Taiwan was not "part of China". As is seen on a map of those days, it is shown in a different color.

On a narrow peninsula on the Southwestern coast of the island, the Dutch established a fortress named "Zeelandia", after the Dutch province of Zeeland. The peninsula was called Tayouan, meaning terrace bay. This later evolved into Taiwan, and came to be the name for the whole island.


Dutch ships in the harbor near Zeelandia
The Dutch brought in Chinese laborers as migrant workers. for the sugar plantations and rice fields. They usually came for a few years (without family) and then returned to China. Eventually, more settled, and married aborigine wives. Thus a new race was born: the Taiwanese.

In 1662 Dutch were defeated by a Chinese pirate, Cheng Cheng-kung (Koxinga), a loyalist of the old Ming dynasty, who himself was on the run from the newly established Ching dynasty. Cheng Cheng-kung himself died shortly afterwards, his son took over, but in 1683, this last remnant of the Ming Dynasty was defeated by the Ch'ing troops.

From the 1680s to the 1880s
However, the new Manchu emperors were not eager to extend their rule over the island. They were "inland" people with little knowledge of the offshore islands and even less skill at naval warfare.

In the subsequent years, immigration to the island from the coastal provinces of China increased, but the people came to flee the wars and famines on the mainland, and did not come on behalf of the rulers in Peking.

Taiwan thus remained a loose-lying area for the next 200 years. At times, the Manchu attempted to extend their control over the unruly inhabitants, but time and again the islanders fought back. There were numerous clashes between the local population and officials sent from China, leading to the well-known saying in those days: "Every three years an uprising, every five years a rebellion."

The 19th Century
That China hardly had any influence at all in the coastal waters around Taiwan is apparent from the two following examples: when in the 1870's Taiwanese pirates captured American, Japanese and French ships passing the island, these governments protested to Peking, but the Manchu emperor said: "Taiwan is beyond our territory."

In fact, the French go so upset by the recurring attacks on their ships and the Chinese inaction, that they sent a navy fleet to the island, and for nine months in 1884-85, the northern part of Taiwan was French territory.

It wasn't until 1887, that the Manchu Imperial authorities decided to declare Taiwan to be a "province" of their Empire: they wanted to outmaneuver the Japanese, who were expanding their influence to the South.

The ploy didn't work: in 1895 the Japanese defeated the Manchu's in the Sino-Japanese War, and in the Treaty of Shimonoseki, China ceded Taiwan to Japan in perpetuity (not 99 years, like Hong Kong's New Territories, but in perpetuity, i.e. forever).

An important conclusion is thus that Taiwan was an occupied part of Imperial China for only eight years. Not "always", as the KMT and the Chinese Communists are claiming.

The Taiwan Republic
The Taiwanese didn't like the idea of incorporation into Japan, and on 25 May 1895 -- with the assistance of disenchanted Manchu officials -- the Taiwan Republic, the first independent republic in Asia was established. Here is the flag of the new nation:


However, a few days later, on 29 May 1895, a Japanese military force of over 12,000 soldiers landed in Northern Taiwan, and started to crush the movement. On 21 October 1895, Japanese imperial troops entered Tainan, the southern capital of the Taiwan Republic, ending its short life.

The Japanese Period
The Japanese occupation was harsh, but at least the Japanese were not corrupt. The educational system was built up to the same level as in Japan, infrastructure, trains, roads, industry etc. were developed extensively. An excellent academic work on the Japanese period is Mr. George Kerr's work on the "Formosan Home Rule Movement."

An interesting anecdote from the 1930s needs to be mentioned here: At that time the Chinese Communists under Mao Tse-tung were vying for control over China with Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists. In an interview with American reporter Edgar Snow, Chairman Mao said: "...we will extend them (the Koreans) our enthusiastic help in their struggle for independence. The same thing applies for Taiwan" (p. 110 in Red Star over China, by Edgar Snow).

Occupation by the Chinese Nationalists
The next major event which affected Taiwan's status was WW II: during the War, in 1943, the Allied Powers held the Cairo Conference, and on one sleepy afternoon in the hot Cairo sun, they decided to agree with Chiang Kai-shek's request that Taiwan be "returned to (Nationalist) China." This text found its way into the Cairo Declaration, but of course occurred without any presence or agreement of representatives of the Taiwanese people.

When the War actually ended in 1945, the Allied powers agreed that Chiang's troops would "temporarily occupy Taiwan, on behalf of the Allied forces." As we see, this "temporary" has become rather permanent. Initially, the Taiwanese were glad to get rid of the Japanese, but soon their joy turned into sorrow and anger: the newcomers from China turned out to be corrupt, repressive, and uncivilized.

After World War II
The tension burst out into the open in the February 28th Incident of 1947, when a small incident in Taipei led to large-scale demonstrations. The Kuomintang was initially taken aback, but secretly sent troops from China, which started to round up and execute a whole generation of leading figures, students, lawyers, doctors. In all, scholars estimate that up to 28.000 people were killed, and during the "white terror" of the following years, thousands more were arrested, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered by the KMT's highly efficient KGB-machine, the Taiwan Garrison Command.

The beginning of Martial Law. In 1949, Chiang Kai-shek lost the war on the mainland, and fled to Taiwan, where he established the remainder of his regime. For the next four decades, the people of Taiwan lived under Martial Law, while the KMT attempted to maintain the fantasy that they ruled all of China, and would some day "recover" the mainland. The Chinese mainlanders who came over with Chiang Kai-shek constituted only 15 percent of the population of the island, but were able to maintain themselves in a position of power over the 85 percent native Taiwanese through tight control of the political system, police, military, educational system and media.

The San Francisco Peace Treaty
In 1951-52 the Allied Powers and Japan formally concluded World War II by concluding the San Francisco Peace Treaty. That Treaty is important for Taiwan, because it decided that Japan gave up sovereignty over Taiwan, but it was not determined who was the beneficiary: it was concluded that "...the future status of Taiwan will be decided in accord with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations."

The Charter of the UN contains article 1.2 which states that it is a purpose of the UN "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples..." The formal result of the San Francisco Peace Treaty is thus that the people of Taiwan should determine the future status of the island based on the principle of self-determination. This Treaty is thus the first, and the last, international treaty of the 20th Century which deals with the status of Taiwan.

In 1958, the view from the perspective of the native Taiwanese -- or Formosans as they were referred to at that time -- was eloquently expressed by Mr. Li Thian-hok, a young student at the University of Minnesota,in two articles in Foreign Affairs and the New Republic.

Taiwan, the UN and the Shanghai Communiqué
During the following 20 years, from 1952 to 1972, the Kuomintang was able to build up Taiwan economically, thanks to the hard work of the Taiwanese, and the sound infrastructure built up by the Japanese. But on the diplomatic front, they lost ground, and in 1971, their dreamworld of representing all of China fell apart when Nixon and Kissinger made their "opening" to China.

In 1971, Peking also took over the Kuomintang's seat in the UN as "representative of China," and the Kuomintang authorities were booted out. Does Resolution 2758 say anything about Taiwan's status or Taiwan's representation ? Not at all. Resolution 2758 dealt only with the question who was representing China in the United Nations, not with the question of Taiwan's representation, which was and is a separate issue, to be dealt with as a follow up on the decisions of the San Francisco Peace Treaty of 1951-52.

The following year, 1972, was the year of the infamous Shanghai Communiqué between the US and the Chinese authorities in Peking. According to a 1985 Rand Corporation report written for US intelligence agencies, the prime US negotiator, Mr. Henry Kissinger, is reported to have agreed to the text of the Communiqué after a dinner of maotai and Peking duck. He reportedly exclaimed to his hosts: "After a dinner of maotai and Peking duck, I'll sign anything" . This communiqué is the basis for the present so-called "One China" policy of the Clinton administration.

What does the communiqué say, and what does it mean ? In the 1972 communiqué the US "acknowledged" the Chinese position that there is but one China, and that Taiwan is part of China. Does this wording mean that the US, and other nations using similar wording, "agree" with the Chinese position ? Of course not. It merely states that these nations took note of the Chinese position, but did not give their own position on the matter. "Acknowledge" means simply "taking note of" but not necessarily "agreeing" with someones position.

In any case, these communiqué's between the United States and China are of little relevance to Taiwan. Firstly, they were simply statements at the end of a meeting, and were not ratified, either by the US Congress or by the international community, and thus do not have the weight of a Treaty. Secondly, most importantly, they were made without any involvement or representation of the people of Taiwan, and can thus not have any validity in determining the future of the island.

Transition towards democracy
The 1971 and 1972 events, and even more the December 1978 United States switch in recognition from the Kuomintang regime to the Beijing regime hit hard in Taiwan. At the same time, it gave impetus to the growth and evolution of the democratic opposition movement in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

The Kaohsiung Incident of December 1979 galvanized the Taiwanese on the island and overseas into political action. The tangwai ("outside-the-party") democratic opposition started to question the KMT's anachronistic claim to represent all of China, and began to work towards ending the 40-years' old martial law. In September 1986, this movement culminated in the formation of the Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), which then began its growth into a full-fledged opposition party.

The Martial Law was finally dropped in 1987, but replaced by a less-stringent National Security Law. However, it wasn't until 1991 that the KMT claim to rule all of China was dropped, and that aging Nationalist Chinese legislators -- elected on the mainland in 1947 -- were sent into retirement. Since then the island has made major strides in the direction of a fully democratic political system, but the KMT and its "pan-blue" supporters continue to cling to this day to their outdated claim that "Taiwan is part of China."

The Martial Law was finally dropped in 1987, but replaced by a less-stringent National Security Law, which continued to restrict freedom on the island until it was abolished in the reforms initiated by President Lee Teng-hui in 1992. President Lee had succeeded Chiang Kai-shek's son Chiang Ching-kuo after the latter's death in January 1988.

Lee gradually started to restructure the anachronistic system brought over by the Kuomintang from China in the late 1940s. He pushed through reforms which abolished the Legislative Yuan and National Assembly seats still held by aging representatives since their election in China in 1947. Thus in 1991-92, Taiwan saw its first direct elections of all legislators. Also in 1991, the KMT claim to rule all of China was dropped, and the government in Taipei only claimed sovereignty over Taiwan and surrounding islands.

Consolidation of democracy
President Lee continued his push for reforms and in 1996, for the first time in history, the Taiwanese were able to directly elect their President. Lee also pushed for the abolishment of the "Taiwan Province" layer of government, as well as of the National Assembly, which eventually ceased to function in 2005.

In the meantime, the DPP gradually gained strength, increasing its share of the vote in successive elections for the Legislative Yuan, and local offices. In 1994, Chen Shui-bian was elected mayor of Taipei, while in Frank Hsieh Chang-ting was elected mayor of Kaohsiung in 1998 and re-elected in 2002.

The transition to democracy culminated in March 2000 in the election of Chen Shui-bian, who won with 39.3% of the vote in a three-way race against KMT candidate Lien Chan and independent candidate James Soong. In March 2004, President Chen consolidated his position with a slightly over 50% victory over a combined ticket of Messrs. Lien and Soong.

Since 2000 the island has made major strides in the direction of a fully democratic political system, but the KMT and its "pan-blue" supporters continue to cling to this day to their outdated claim that "Taiwan is part of China", and obstruct democratic reforms and budgets for necessary items such as the purchase of arms packages from the US.

Quest for international recognition
The transition to democracy also brought about an increasing desire by the people on the island to become a full and equal member of the international community. In the 1970s, Taiwan had been kicked out of most international organizations because the Kuomintang authorities at that time still continued the claim to sovereignty over China.

In the early 1990s, the island was moving towards being an entity in its own right, and a grassroots quest for membership in organizations like the UN and WHO took hold. In 1995, this prompted former President Lee Teng-hui to start an annual campaign to enter the UN. However, this campaign was a quest to re-enter the UN under the outdated "Republic of China" monniker.

It wasn't until President Chen took over, that the campaign specified entry under the name Taiwan. In the early 2007, this campaign was supported by some 72-75% of the population.

In 1997, an annual campaign to enter the World Health Organization was also started. Initially this campaign had the very modest goal of "meaningful participation" and "observer status" in the World Health Assembly. After several rounds of resolutions in the US Congress, this approach received the support of the American Administration.

However, by 2007, little progress had been made, and in April 2007, the DPP Administration announced in Taipei that from now on the campaign would be aiming at full and equal membership in the world health body.

This is the history of Taiwan in a nutshell. Two conclusions: Taiwan does have a history, and Taiwan has never been an integral part of China.

Back to: Taiwan's 400 years of history

[fivers]

gosh mndeg didn't know you were from Taiwan, anyway they have a great airport (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)

[mndeg]

The sentence doesn't make any logical sense.

"Taiwanese" in Taiwan were/ are Chinese. They were part of Chinese nation and people, and Taiwan were part of jurisdiction of China.

I think you are confusing yourself.

In fact after 1949, still majority of Taiwanese see themselves as Chinese. Only after 2000+ , in years of Chen Shui Bian, the poll result start to shift significantly.

no, how was Taiwan a jurisdiction of China?
it never has been in the history of mankind

and Taiwanese see themselves as Chinese blood which is obviously true, not many would claim they are Chinese. You are misreading polls to your own liking.

this isn't really arguable

This post has been edited by mndeg: Oct 25 2009, 05:33 PM

[SoCal]

I don't mean to offend mainland Chinese but the fact is the Taiwanese are not the average mainland Chinese.

Japanese, south korean, Hk, Taiwan, singapore. There are many rich and educated Asians. You analogy don't fit. In fact, shanghai, Guangzhou is a pretty rich place too. Are they jews too?

[Titanium]

I'm truly amazed at how easily some people fall for trolls.

[InitialDJay]

I caught you lying again.
Taiwan residents have lived there for the past 500 years.
80 percent of the Taiwan residents are local Taiwanese.

In 1949, kmt who got kicked out of China, and escaped to Taiwan in shame with their 2 million soldiers. This group make up only 20 percent of the population. They used guns and took over all the Taiwan government and large businesses. Thus giving the kmt a unethical advantage in Taiwan since their illegal occupation of Taiwan.

You sewoth need to stop lying.
kmt supporters like you are very good at lying and posting false information.
I am here to stop your lies.

stop lying...kmt illegally took over taiwan? give me a source or fail.

i'll say this many times.. taiwan will always be connected with china due to the territorial conflict.

other than that, unless you're an aborigine, no person whether you're a new immigrant or old immigrant, can legally claim taiwanese as an ethnic identity. instead if you're proclaimed as "taiwanese", then you're only referring to taiwan's political affiliation which reinstated as your stance on taiwan sovereignty for the time being.

is that clear now?

This post has been edited by InitialDJay: Oct 25 2009, 09:24 PM

[sunt]

stop lying...kmt illegally took over taiwan? give me a source or fail.

i'll say this many times.. taiwan will always be connected with china due to the territorial conflict.

other than that, unless you're an aborigine, no person whether you're a new immigrant or old immigrant, can legally claim taiwanese as an ethnic identity. instead if you're proclaimed as "taiwanese", then you're only referring to taiwan's political affiliation which reinstated as your stance on taiwan sovereignty for the time being.

is that clear now?

After World War II
The tension burst out into the open in the February 28th Incident of 1947, when a small incident in Taipei led to large-scale demonstrations. The Kuomintang was initially taken aback, but secretly sent troops from China, which started to round up and execute a whole generation of leading figures, students, lawyers, doctors. In all, scholars estimate that up to 28.000 people were killed, and during the "white terror" of the following years, thousands more were arrested, imprisoned, tortured, and murdered by the KMT's highly efficient KGB-machine, the Taiwan Garrison Command.

The beginning of Martial Law. In 1949, Chiang Kai-shek lost the war on the mainland, and fled to Taiwan, where he established the remainder of his regime. For the next four decades, the people of Taiwan lived under Martial Law, while the KMT attempted to maintain the fantasy that they ruled all of China, and would some day "recover" the mainland. The Chinese mainlanders who came over with Chiang Kai-shek constituted only 15 percent of the population of the island, but were able to maintain themselves in a position of power over the 85 percent native Taiwanese through tight control of the political system, police, military, educational system and media.

This is ground zero of what fuels me.
You better pray that there is no civil within Taiwan. Or else, the kmt will taken out by people like me.
Mainland China will not be able to help the kmt. I have traveled to Mainland China many times. China has already developed into a HK level high status. They already forgotten about the insignificant island. Mainlanders don't even know where Taiwanese came from. I was shocked when I spoke to Mainlanders. They know so very little about Taiwan. Nor do they care. That is why you don't see any mainlanders posting here. They don't give a cr@p.

I have already posted Taiwan history here.
What part of it don't you understand?
Are you not able to read English?
Do you have mental problems?
I think so.

[SkyLegenD]

If you're gonna troll, at least change your grammar.

Either way - I don't CARE if Taiwanese aren't Chinese. Just gtfo and go to Japan or USA or any other nation where you think is home and leave Taiwan Province for the PRC/ROC to figure out.

[crackernineinch]

Why dont you also ask your family and relatives to also pack up their bags and move back to where their grandparents came from, farker?

I dont think you can claim to be native Taiwanese if you are not an aboriginal.

Go on, ask your family and relatives to all pack up their bags and go back to Fujien.

Farkface.

be interesting to kmow where you come from because if it is the states than you certainly aren't american. you are an red coat english. if you ar are aussie than you are a convict or english scum. who are you to judge others trying to defend their nationality?!?!?!

[crackernineinch]

be interesting to kmow where you come from because if it is the states than you certainly aren't american. you are an red coat english. if you ar are aussie than you are a convict or english scum. who are you to judge others trying to defend their nationality?!?!?!

$hit sorry.
totally misunderstood what you were saying
you are right and i'm kinda saying the same thing
china f-ing pisses me off. they have no right to taiwan!!!!

[afewminutesofyou...]

(IMG:http://nimg.sulekha.com/Others/original700/taiwan-protest-2009-9-19-5-41-3.jpg)
(IMG:http://nimg.sulekha.com/Others/original700/taiwan-protest-2009-9-19-5-40-55.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.chinapost.com.tw/news_images/20090517/517rally.jpg)
(IMG:http://nimg.sulekha.com/Others/original700/taiwan-protest-2009-9-19-5-41-10.jpg)
(IMG:http://chinadigitaltimes.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/taiwan.jpg)

lawl

[BurdenOfAges]

Why is it funny?

[afewminutesofyou...]

Why is it funny?

It isn't if you're referring to the pictures and their struggle. I'm mostly laughing at the thread because they underestimate taiwanization.

(IMG:http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3022/2856758279_500a88c8d6_o.jpg)
(IMG:http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/5759/908taiwanrepublicwavezr1.jpg)
(IMG:http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/636/taiwannotchinataiwangb0.jpg)

[BurdenOfAges]

I see.

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Nov 11 2009, 04:58 PM