Promoting Malayness and Austronesian in the Philippines Options

[trismegistos]

It is also reported that ancient Malay people had exist in Central Thailand instead of those in Southern Thai around 6th C. They are mixed with Austroasian or Mon-Khmer people and Tai tribes now. Malay people too playing important part in Cambodia around 16th C. They became ministers for Khmer king like Chao Bana Chand. I heard that Chao Bana Chand is the only Khmer Muslim king in Cambodia and quite rare in Cambodian history because most of their king are Buddhist and Hindu. He's not a Malay btw.

Likewise the Lusung or Luzon people or Lucoes as they were called by the Porutugues occuppied important positions in Malacca Sultanate.

While, the Cambodian King Phra Unkar Langara sent a gift of two royal elephants, gems and horses to the lords of Lusung to petition them to aid him in the war against Siam.
source: http://nippihistory.hp.infoseek.co.jp/lusunghis-e.htm

Pallava Grantha was most likely used in the Indianize kingdoms, then later on Baybayin derived from it & was used throughout most of the islands

The Pallava script or Kavi script, was the sophisticated script used by the royals and the Scholars as seen in the Laguna Copperplate inscription. While the masses used a much simpler and easier to learn, baybayin script. The two scripts, the sophisticated one and a simpler one could have existed side by side.

Somehow, after the rise to power in the Philippine isles of Nakoda Ragam aka Paduka Sri Baginda Rajah dan yang di Pertuan Bulkiah, Islamization must have stopped the use of that scholarly Hindu or Sanskrit script and perhaps the royals adopted instead the Arabic script while the masses retain their indigenous baybayin script. The natives were still practicing animistic or shamanistic beliefs while their royals practiced the official Islam religion and before Islamization, the Austronesian royals professed Hinduism, Jainism, or Buddhism(Hindu, Tantric or Buddhist Tara images were found all over the Philippine isles http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/tech.htm#sculp or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DIwuvg_VnU ). The coming of the Spaniard stopped the tide of Islamization making a stronger foothold to the masses and the indigenous people.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Nov 4 2009, 08:05 AM

[trismegistos]

Seludong/Seludang/Selurung that was the name of Manila when it was under the Sultanate of Brunei

but this i am not very sure yet of its accuracy
"The name MANILA itself comes from the Arabic word which means Fiamanillah "In the shelter of God."
http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila

From this link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippines

However, during the reign of Sultan Bolkiah in 1485 to 1521, the Sultanate of Brunei decided to break the Dynasty of Tondo's monopoly in the China trade by attacking Tondo and establishing the state of Selurong (now Manila) as a Bruneian satellite-state.[42][43] A new dynasty under the Islamized Rajah Salila[44] was also established to challenge the House of Lakandula in Tondo.[45] Islam was further strengthened by the arrival to the Philippines by traders and proselytizers from Malaysia and Indonesia.[46]

To thresh out some inconsistencies(various sources have some inconsistencies, that's why):

Seludong or Saludung or Selurong was not established by Sultan Bolkeiah/Ragam/Raja Baguinda/Gat Lontok of Manila, Maguindanao, Sulu and Brunei or to be specific: Paduka Sri Baginda Rajah dan yang di Pertuan Bulkiah, known better in Southeast Asian History as Nakhoda Ragam (the Singing Captain). The Majapahitan and the Srivijayans would call the Ancient Kingdom of Lusung or Luzon by that name Seludong. Manila was established by Ragam after vanquishing Datu Gambang, the ruler of the Kingdom of Selurong/Luzon(whose eastern capital was Tondo) via his son named Selalila or Soliman I (accdg to the Will of Pansonum). Some source would say that Selalila or Sri Lela or Pengiran Maharaja Lela or Sulaiman I was (W)Ong Sum Ping, a Chinese prince of the Ming dynasty, the Chinese uncle of Sultan Bolkeiah. So, another inconsistency. http://malaysiana1.blogspot.com/2008/04/br...-brudirect.html As some historians would confuse the founding of Manila with Ong Sum Ping, perhaps it should be credited only to the son of Ragam and not to the uncle. So, Selalila and Srilela are two persons and not the same person, the former being the son of Ragam while the latter, the uncle. So, the Will of Pansonum seems more accurate. Or perhaps the idea of invading Selurung or Luzon and the establishment of Manila was the idea of the Chinese uncle who acted as Naval commander.

http://melayuonline.com/eng/article/read/637 or http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=214354

According to Henson, he was the third Sulaiman to rule the Islamic Kingdom of Manila. The first was Sulaiman I, a grandson of Emperor Anka Widjaya, the last King of Majapahit and Empress Sa Saban of the Kingdom of Sapa (now Sta. Ana, Manila)[16] He married Princess Ysmeria and they had three sons; Sulaiman II, Matanda and Lakandula. After Sulaiman II died, he was succeeded by his son, Sulaiman III. After some time, Martin de Goiti, Legaspi's master of camp, and the Spaniards arrived in Manila Bay in 1570 A.D., Raja Sulaiman III and his aging uncle were ruling the Kingdom of Manila. It is interesting to note that Raja Sulaiman III married a Brunei princess, a daughter of Sultan Abdul Kahar.[17]

It was also claimed that Sulaiman (Sulaiman bin Mahmud) was the fourteenth successor of Raja Ahmad, who reportedly established the Islamic principality of Manila in 1258 with temporal power covering Luzon and the Visayas. Moreover, Raja Ahmad was from Brunei and had vanquished RAJA AVIRJIRKAYA of Manila, who was supposed to be under the suzereinty of MADJAPAHIT Empire.[18]

An inconsistency was made by the Muslim Historian Rodil confusing Haring Araw of Borneo as the Madjapahit/Majapahit emperor Angka Widjaya. Because there is another person by the name of Prince Balagtas as the son and not Selalila or Sulaiman I. Accdg to the will of Pansonum, the sister of Sulaiman I by the name of Lady or Dayang Panginoan was the wife of Prince Balagtas. So Prince Balagtas was a brother in law of Soliman I. Another confusion made by the Muslim Historian was the confounding of Pansonum aka Fernando Malang Balagtas as no other than Lakandula. Pansonum was a grandson of Prince Balagtas while Lakandula was a son of Sulaiman I, the brother-in-law of Prince Balagtas. A descendant of Prince Balagtas was credited for the founding of Namayan by the name of Lakan Takhan(Tagean) as the same manner another descendant Malangsik http://us.geocities.com/kapampanganx/s7_1.html founded the towns of Kandaue (Candaba), Purak (Porac), Macabebe, Baba (Lubao), Pinpin (Sta. Ana), Betis, Uaua (Guagua) and Balayan ning Pambuit (Arayat).
There has been a confusion of three kingdoms(city-states) in Manila, i.e Kingdom of Tondo, Kingdom of Manila, and Kingdom of Namayan. So from above, you can see the relationships. the Kingdom of Sapa(Zabag?) is synonymous with the Kingdom of Lusung or Selurung and Namayan which is now Sta. Ana was part of that bigger polity, Kingdom of Sapa. Tondo was a capital of Selurung(Lusong or Kingdom of Sapa) and not a separate Kingdom. While Manila was a city-state founded by Ragam with his son, Soliman I and his uncle Srilela or Ong Sum Ping.

In the same manner, other historians would confuse Seludong with Manila.
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Coast/7446/Ragam.htm or http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversio...hp/t200695.html

Ako si sultan Bulkeiah sa Borneo, na naghahari mula sa lungsod ng kapayapaan, Dar es Salam, sa dalampasigan ng Brunei. Sa Magindanaw at sa Sulu, na kinakikitaan ng unang liwanag ng walang katulad kong asawa, Emperatris Lela Men Chanei, ay tinatawag akong Raha Baginda. At ngayon, dito sa Maynila ay ako ang Sultan at Emperador.
Makalawang ulit nang sinalakay ng aking hukbong-dagat ang SELURUNG, na tinatawag ninyong LUSUNG, at ngayon ay ako ang nagwagi at nakapanakop. Ang mapanghamig na si Datu Gambang, ang inyong yumaong puno, ay wala na, at ang isang prinsesa mula sa kanyang angkan ay aking pinakasalan upang maipagpatuloy ang dinastiya ng Pasig.

A rough English translation of the above:

I am Sultan Bolkeiah of Borneo, from the City of Peace, Darrusalam from the coast of Brunei. In Maguindanao and Sulu, which witnessed the radiance of my wife, Empress Lela Men Chanei, I am known as Raja Baginda. And now, here in Manila, I am Sultan and Emperor.

Selurung, which you called Lusung(Luzon), was twice invaded by my naval fleet. And now, I am victorious and have conquered. The ruthless Datu Gambang, your deceased ruler, is now dead and I have married his daughter from his clan in order to continue the dynasty of Pasig.

Saludong, Selurung, and variations of it were mentioned by various historians mostly from Brunei as the Kingdom of Luzon whom Ragam or Nakhoda or Bulkiah invaded. And the same Saludong was mentioned in the Majapahit document Nagarakertagama http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagarakertagama

In Canto 14 of Nagarakertagama more territories are mentioned: Kadandangan, Landa, Samadang, Tirem, Sedu (Sarawak), Barune (Brunei), Kalka, SALUDONG, Solot (Sulu), Pasir Barito, Sawaku, Tabalung, and Tanjung Kutei. In Hujung Medini (Malay Peninsula), Pahang is mentioned first. Next Langkasuka, Saimwang, Kelantan and Trengganu, Johor, Paka, Muar, Dungun, Tumasik (where Singapore is today), Kelang (Klang valley) and Kedah, Jerai, Kanjapiniran, all are united.

Thus, Selurung or Luzon kingdom had alliance with Majapahit. Well, the intermarriages between Balagtas with Panginoan and before that by his father, Widjaya with Dayang or Lady Sa-saban of the Kingdom of Sapa(kingdom synonymous to Selurung or Luzon)could be considered as proof if these documents were authentic and not just some quasi-historical documents as William Henry Scott referred to some of these tarsilas or geneaologies. http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=204473

btw, Paduka Sri Baginda Rajah dan yang di Pertuan Bulkiah, known better in Southeast Asian History as Nakhoda Ragam (the Singing Captain) bragged like many rulers from the same clan, the Sultans of the various Sultanates of Johore, Malacca/Melaka, Aceh, that they had lineages with Alexander the Great and to the prophet of Islam. But most of all He was very proud of his Sri Bisayan lineage. He wore the Chawat with great dignity.

What's with this fixation with 'BAHAG' or 'CHAWAT'?

It's like a 'phallic symbol'. The longer the bahag or the chawat, the more royal blood. he he

It was a symbol of "bisayan" royalty.

http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Pagan-Tribes-of-Borneo1.html

How early the Arab doctrines were taught in Brunei is impossible to state with any precision. Local tradition ascribes their introduction to the renowned Alak ber Tata, afterwards known as Sultan Mohammed. Like most of his subjects this warrior was a BISAYA, and in early life he was not a Mohammedan, not indeed a civilised potentate at all, to judge by conventional standards; for the CHIEF MARK OF HIS ROYAL DIGNITY was an IMMENSE CHAWAT, or loin-cloth, carried as he walked by eighty men, forty in front and forty behind. He is the earliest monarch of whom the present Bruneians have any knowledge, a fact to be accounted for partly by the brilliance of his exploits

The Loincloth of Borneo... http://www.ikanlundu.com/literary/borneo_loincloth.html

http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Pagan-Tribes-of-Borneo1.html

Thus the present royal house of Brunei is derived from three sources -- Arab, BISAYA, and Chinese. The coronation ceremony as still maintained affords an interesting confirmation of this account.
On that occasion the principal minister wears a turban and Haji outfit, the two next in rank are dressed in Chinese and Hindu fashion, while the fourth wears a CHAWAT over his trousers to represent the BISAYAS; and each of these ministers declares the Sultan to be divinely appointed.
Then after the demonstration of loyalty the two gongs -- one from MENANGKABAU, the other from JOHORE -- are beaten, and the Moslem high priest proclaims the Sultan and preaches a sermon, declaring him to be a descendant of Sri Turi Buana, the PALEMBANG SRIVIJAYAN chief who founded the early kingdom of Singapore in 1160 A.D., who reigned in that island for forty-eight years, and whose descendants became the royal family of MALACCA.

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Coast/7446/Ragam.htm or http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/lofiversio...hp/t200695.html

... ikinararangal kong masabing sa aking mga ugat ay dumadaloy ang dugo ng isang BISAYA. Tuwing dadalaw sa aking kaharian ang mga sugong Intsik at Arabe, ang pinakamahalagang palamuti nila'y ang mahabang CHAWAT, na laging itinataas sa harapan ko ng apatnapu katao. Kapag iyo'y ibinigkis ko sa aking baywang upang humanda sa pakikitalad, ang pagkakabigkis ay maayos at ang paghahamok ay laging pinagtatagumpayan...
Mula sa Malaka hanggang Maynila ay kilalaang lahat ang pangalang Nakoda Ragam na kanilang pinanganganinuhan...

rough English translation

I am proud that from my veins flowed the blood of a BISAYA. When the ambassadors from China and Arabia would come, the most important insignia/emblem is the long CHAWAT, which is always raised from my front by 40 people....
From MALACCA TO MANILA, THE NAME NAKODA RAGAM WILL BE WELL KNOWN AS THEIR LORD

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Nov 7 2009, 06:33 AM

[Mephisto]

There is no Pinoy languages back then.

First and foremost I tend to lean on the more scientific which is backed by genetic studies, anthropologic studies, Sundaland theory of Solheim and Oppenheimer than the linguist Bellwood theory of Out of Taiwan theory. Unfortunately, most academicians in University of the Philippines favor the latter.

Si suzuka dapat ang tinanong mo at sigurado ako sasang-ayon s'ya sa iyo.

joke lang yun tresmigistos... it's just a warped reaction to this post.

Unbelievable! Too many Pinoy words were borrowed by Malays.

i'm just fishing for your comment. heheh it's good that we have Malaysian brother sonofgunongjerai who joined us here to make this topic more interesting.

[trismegistos]

joke lang yun tresmigistos... it's just a warped reaction to this post.

i'm just fishing for your comment. heheh it's good that we have Malaysian brother sonofgunongjerai who joined us here to make this topic more interesting.

Alam ko naman na joke lang 'yon. lol
OT:You are into occult? or into comics or dungeons and dragons stuff? hehe
For your namesake is a demon's name as in the esoteric story about Faust and Mephistopheles.

We have to credit the threadstarter and sonofgunongjerai for spicing up this thread.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Nov 4 2009, 08:49 AM

[Mephisto]

^^^
Mephisto is one of the prime evils in the RPG Diablo II LoD -- one of my favorite PC games

It's good that we discuss history here thru different sources, not just from what the conquistadores has fed us. I have some knowledge in world history.. but it's just recently that i became interested in our own history, i always thought then that our past is so boring with the all those Datu Puti and Code of Kalantiaw $h*ts

[sonofgunongjerai]

Wow, I just asked my friends about Luzon or Luso Malay. Yeah, you're right, they had been here in Malacca state. If you heard about Portuguese speaking people, some of those people trace their origin from Luso people. They are mixed with Portuguese and Goa Indians but speaking a patois language called Papia Kristang (Christian Tongue), it is a kind of Portuguese but different from those in Portugal or in Brazil because their grammar is like Malay grammar . They live in a place called Bandar Hilir in Malacca near the sea. Their patron saint is San Pedro.

I think Filipino history isn't being dug up well, you people should help other SEAns knowing more about your pasts too...

[trismegistos]

but this i am not very sure yet of its accuracy
"The name MANILA itself comes from the Arabic word which means Fiamanillah "In the shelter of God."
http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manila

Looks more accurate than the accepted etymology of May-nilad or 'there is a nilad plant'.
Just like its mother, Brunei Darrusalam came from Hindu and Arab words which means City of Peace(Darussalam) of the people of Varuna(Baruna-i). Varuna is a Hindu God.

[filipinoy]

Looks more accurate than the accepted etymology of May-nilad or 'there is a nilad plant'.
Just like its mother, Brunei Darrusalam came from Hindu and Arab words which means City of Peace(Darussalam) of the people of Varuna(Baruna-i). Varuna is a Hindu God.

it's funny the "manila" in wikipedia is available in almost 100 languages, & only the Melayu & Arabic mentioned "Fi Amanillah".

i think they are trying to hide our muslim past because it will be so ironic if the capital of one of the largest Catholic country in the world Manila – Amānillāh (امان الله) has a meaning of "Peace under the protection of Allah"

Tausug site still refers to the City of Manila as Bandar Amanillah (Mendapat keamanan Allah)
http://tausugglobal.blogspot.com/2008/09/8...am-sejarah.html

http://muslimspeak.wordpress.com/2008/10/1...84%D9%84%D9%87/

http://www.whymuhammad.com/ph/contents.aspx?aid=2345

This post has been edited by filipinoy: Nov 7 2009, 04:11 AM

[2ndsun]

it's funny the "manila" in wikipedia is available in almost 100 languages, & only the Melayu & Arabic mentioned "Fi Amanillah".

i think they are trying to hide our muslim past because it will be so ironic if the capital of one of the largest Catholic country in the world Manila – Amānillāh (امان الله) has a meaning of "Peace under the protection of Allah"

Tausug site still refers to the City of Manila as Bandar Amanillah (Mendapat keamanan Allah)
http://tausugglobal.blogspot.com/2008/09/8...am-sejarah.html

http://muslimspeak.wordpress.com/2008/10/1...84%D9%84%D9%87/

http://www.whymuhammad.com/ph/contents.aspx?aid=2345

True, Manila was under the control of Muslim datus before Spain came, but it doesn't mean the entire population were muslim. The National Historical Research of the Philippines has a work detailing the history of Manila before the Spaniards and the majority of it's inhabitants, then called Maynilad, were a mix of animists and Buddhists.

[2ndsun]

I believe the Philippines should concentrate on advancing Tagalog as the national language and preserving the other languages of the archipelago. Bisayan, Ilokano, Pangasinese, Waray, Meranao, Maguindanao should all be promoted and studied in their localities side by side with Pilipiniana studies in Elementary and highschool. Baybayin script, should be reintroduced as part of our Philippine studies. English should be strengthened as well as a foreign language necessary for global competitiveness along with other languages like Mandarin, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. To me a Pan-Malayan thing will not work since Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippines each have their own agendas and uniqueness. Any Pan-this and that will only create conflict and chaos. Take a look at how pan-Arabism didn't work, nor did Pan-Turkism or Pan-Asianism of the Japanese in the past since all of those "Pan-" movements always had a single country dominating and speaking for the others.

[jonathanrhino]

I believe the Philippines should concentrate on advancing Tagalog as the national language and preserving the other languages of the archipelago. Bisayan, Ilokano, Pangasinese, Waray, Meranao, Maguindanao should all be promoted and studied in their localities side by side with Pilipiniana studies in Elementary and highschool. Baybayin script, should be reintroduced as part of our Philippine studies. English should be strengthened as well as a foreign language necessary for global competitiveness along with other languages like Mandarin, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc. To me a Pan-Malayan thing will not work since Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippines each have their own agendas and uniqueness. Any Pan-this and that will only create conflict and chaos. Take a look at how pan-Arabism didn't work, nor did Pan-Turkism or Pan-Asianism of the Japanese in the past since all of those "Pan-" movements always had a single country dominating and speaking for the others.

Tagalog is Filipino masking as the National Language. The problem with having a national language is we tend to neglect the growth of other indigenous languages. Sad it may seem, its necessary to achieve unity, its up to us native speakers of the other languages to preserve them, otherwise, start recording them on discs for posterity.

Baybayin per se is an incomplete writing tool, I think it is the letters of the masses. I surmise that the script of the LCI is the letter of the high castes. It has outlived its purpose, like how will you spell "pizza"...do we do it like pitsa?...hehehe. But yes I agree, it should be learned. And I remember it being thought to me in High School.

ASEAN is a pan-austronesian thingy. It is working towards an EU type block and I can live with that. But I will never support a commonwealth type association like you're mentioning, a strong country dominating others.

[sonofgunongjerai]

it's funny the "manila" in wikipedia is available in almost 100 languages, & only the Melayu & Arabic mentioned "Fi Amanillah".

i think they are trying to hide our muslim past because it will be so ironic if the capital of one of the largest Catholic country in the world Manila – Amānillāh (امان الله) has a meaning of "Peace under the protection of Allah"

Tausug site still refers to the City of Manila as Bandar Amanillah (Mendapat keamanan Allah)
http://tausugglobal.blogspot.com/2008/09/8...am-sejarah.html

http://muslimspeak.wordpress.com/2008/10/1...84%D9%84%D9%87/

http://www.whymuhammad.com/ph/contents.aspx?aid=2345

LOL... The same thing also happened here when people trying to give some absurd interpretation about certain places name to hide our Hindu-Buddhism past. I don't think that it is a problem for youngsters to know about their past. It doesn't matter what is your religion. It is the right of younger generation to know about their past history. It is also the root of your country. So, why should we be ashamed of it.

Pan-Austronesian is quite a good idea, but it does not have to stir up the sovereignty of any countries that exist today. It should be more to cultural exchange and knowing each other better so that we can co-operate in many things for the benefit of each other in the future.

[trismegistos]

True, Manila was under the control of Muslim datus before Spain came, but it doesn't mean the entire population were muslim. The National Historical Research of the Philippines has a work detailing the history of Manila before the Spaniards and the majority of it's inhabitants, then called Maynilad, were a mix of animists and Buddhists.

Manila was established by Sultan Bolkeiah of Brunei together with his uncle Ong Sum Ping. Soliman I, Bolkeiah's son served as the first ruler of Manila. So before the Muslims came, there was no Maynila. I want to inquire if the NHI have some proof that the area was called Maynilad before the Moros came. But I understand that the area was populated by animists, Hindu, Buddhists. As Luzon(Seludong accdg to the Madyapahit and the Bruneians) or in our historical records the Kingdom of Sapa was having an alliance with the Hindu Madya-pahit and the Laguna copperplate (LCI) sheds light that the rulers or possibly some of the subjects were Hindu/Buddhists. Raja Gambang, who was described by Bolkeiah as the ruthless ruler of Seludong/Lusong, was usurped by the latter to covet it's trade monopoly of Chinawares and other trade items(being in close proximity with China itself).

See my post here about the confusion by most of our historians of Seludong or Lusung as Manila...
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...t&p=4366184

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Nov 7 2009, 11:29 PM

[filipinoy]

LOL... The same thing also happened here when people trying to give some absurd interpretation about certain places name to hide our Hindu-Buddhism past. I don't think that it is a problem for youngsters to know about their past. It doesn't matter what is your religion. It is the right of younger generation to know about their past history. It is also the root of your country. So, why should we be ashamed of it.

Pan-Austronesian is quite a good idea, but it does not have to stir up the sovereignty of any countries that exist today. It should be more to cultural exchange and knowing each other better so that we can co-operate in many things for the benefit of each other in the future.

they do?

i noticed many places in indonesia & malaysia are derived from sanskrit

a Philippine dictator actually wanted to change the name of the Philippines to Maharlika; mahar-likha; mahardikka?. but its obviously sanskrit

[silangan]

Manila was established by Sultan Bolkeiah of Brunei together with his uncle Ong Sum Ping. Soliman I, Bolkeiah's son served as the first ruler of Manila. So before the Muslims came, there was no Maynila. I want to inquire if the NHI have some proof that the area was called Maynilad before the Moros came. But I understand that the area was populated by animists, Hindu, Buddhists. As Luzon(Seludong accdg to the Madyapahit and the Bruneians) or in our historical records the Kingdom of Sapa was having an alliance with the Hindu Madya-pahit and the Laguna copperplate (LCI) sheds light that the rulers or possibly some of the subjects were Hindu/Buddhists. Raja Gambang, who was described by Bolkeiah as the ruthless ruler of Seludong/Lusong, was usurped by the latter to covet it's trade monopoly of Chinawares and other trade items(being in close proximity with China itself).

See my post here about the confusion by most of our historians of Seludong or Lusung as Manila...
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...t&p=4366184

Manila as well as most of Philippines was first a Hindu settlement. Ancient Filipinos including the Tagalogs of Manila were not writing Arabic. They used the Baybayin which was somewhat related to the Hindu system.

Muslims arrived later and marauded all settlements just like what they did to the rest of South East Asia.

Manila had been flourishing way before Islam ever came to South East Asia.

[trismegistos]

Manila as well as most of Philippines was first a Hindu settlement. Ancient Filipinos including the Tagalogs of Manila were not writing Arabic. They used the Baybayin which was somewhat related to the Hindu system.

Muslims arrived later and marauded all settlements just like what they did to the rest of South East Asia.

Manila had been flourishing way before Islam ever came to South East Asia.

My point is Manila was established by the Moros. But before that the area which would become Manila was part of a greater polity whose capital was in Tondo. And the Laguna Copperplate Inscription, has proven that the rulers were Hindu and were using the sophisticated Kavi Script. And you are correct, the masses used the much simpler Baybayin script. And obviously when Sultan Bolkeiah and his Sri-bisayan-Hindu-Arab-Chinese clan arrived and intermarried with the indigenous nobles/royals they carried with them their Arabic faith and their Arabic script supplanting the Hindu/Sanskrit Brahmi/Pallava/Kavi script. And again the masses retained their shamanistic beliefs with their baybayin script and the advancement of the Spaniards stopped the tide of the eventual Islamization of the masses. But ofcourse, 300 years of Spanish colonization eventually killed their shamanistic beliefs and baybayin script but somehow some beliefs survived as syncretic folk beliefs by the indigenous healers. And the baybayin script survived in codices and manuscripts by Spanish priests-historians. And the Kavi script used by our ancient rulers to be unearthed as LCI in 1989.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Nov 9 2009, 12:45 AM

[silangan]

My point is Manila was established by the Moros. But before that the area which would become Manila was part of a greater polity whose capital was in Tondo. And the Laguna Copperplate Inscription, has proven that the rulers were Hindu and were using the sophisticated Kavi Script. And you are correct, the masses used the much simpler Baybayin script. And obviously when Sultan Bolkeiah and his Sri-bisayan-Hindu-Arab-Chinese clan arrived and intermarried with the indigenous nobles/royals they carried with them their Arabic faith and their Arabic script supplanting the Hindu/Sanskrit Brahmi/Pallava/Kavi script. And again the masses retained their shamanistic beliefs with their baybayin script and the advancement of the Spaniards stopped the tide of the eventual Islamization of the masses. But ofcourse, 300 years of Spanish colonization eventually killed their shamanistic beliefs and baybayin script but somehow some beliefs survived as syncretic folk beliefs by the indigenous healers. And the baybayin script survived in codices and manuscripts by Spanish priests-historians. And the Kavi script used by our ancient rulers to be unearthed as LCI in 1989.

The extent of Hindu influence in the Philippines was so widespread, from as far as the Ilocos to the north down to Mindanao in the south, giving us an insight how old ancient Manila was when the moors came.

I doubt Manila is a Muslim-inspired name. This would make Manila a "young settlement", not "ancient", since the Muslims arrived not too long ago.

I believe Manila was already a well established settlement when the moors came, since they took interest in it. If it wasn't, then the Muslims would have settled somewhere in the islands where "civilization" exists.

In the same way, the Spanish moved to Manila from the Visayas because of this same reason: "more civilization"

[trismegistos]

The extent of Hindu influence in the Philippines was so widespread, from as far as the Ilocos to the north down to Mindanao in the south, giving us an insight how old ancient Manila was when the moors came.

I doubt Manila is a Muslim-inspired name. This would make Manila a "young settlement", not "ancient", since the Muslims arrived not too long ago.

I believe Manila was already a well established settlement when the moors came, since they took interest in it. If it wasn't, then the Muslims would have settled somewhere in the islands where "civilization" exists.

In the same way, the Spanish moved to Manila from the Visayas because of this same reason: "more civilization"

I have read a book yesterday about the History of Ilocos Sur. Ilocos came frome the Hispanization of the Ilocano words I-Loco. 'I-' means 'people of' while Loco has same etymological meaning as the tagalog word "Lusong" or Lucon/Luzon(the Spanish rendering of Lusong) or Luconia(Portuguese rendering of Lusong). So I-Locos means people of Luzon or Lusung people same as the Portuguese word Lucoes.

Yes, the area around Manila was a much coveted place. Right in the middle of the China trade and the Spice routes, i.e. Manila was established to countercheck Tondo for Brunei's trading interests. Seludong or Luzon kingdom, was said by William Henry Scott to refer to a writing by Tome Pires, as holding a virtual monopoly in the China trade or that the peopele of Luzon served as the middlemen for the China trade. That's why accdg to him the natives of Cebu would confuse the Tagalog people of Luzon as Chinamen. The significance in the control of the area surrounding Manila parallels the significance in the control of Malacca strait. http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...t&p=4366138
The Spice Routes >>> http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/spiceroutes.htm

Regarding Manila as an ancient vis a vis young settlement...
You are confounding Manila with the much older kingdom or polity on almost the same area.

And the area around Manila specifically Tondo was obviously ancient. As Tondo was one of the places mentioned in the Laguna Copperplate Inscription which is like a document coming from the 10th century. And the advent of the Muslims on that area only about like what 14th or 15th century. And Tondo obviously was a mixed animist-Hindu settlement as can be gleamed from that document. And the ruler of Tondo was acting like a Senapati(Sanskrit title meaning Commander in Chief or Admiral) among the alliances of city-states or Rajanates as if like a Maharaja(Raja of Rajas). And one of the city-state having an alliance with the Old Tundo was Medang, a placename either in Sumatra or Java. And this was the time when the Coedes termed Srivijayas empire was at its peak. Srivijayan empire was inferred by Coedes to designate a thallosocracy or an alliance of rajanates which the early Chinese writers would call Sanfotsi or Shilifoshi the same alliance or kingdom termed as Zabag as it was known to the early Arab Muslims. The word Srivijaya was mentioned in the Kedukan bukit inscription. The kedukan bukit inscription was found near Palembang. And so Coedes placed the capital of the empire in Palembang. But Palembang was just a dependency of Sanfotsi accdg to the early writings of the Chinese. The Indonesian historians admit a vague recollection of a Srivijayan empire.
Much as Jose Rizal retraced the travels of Ibn Battuta to the Kingdom of Tawalishi/Shilifoshi and he concluded that the location of the kingdom was probably north of Manila, another intuitive and scholarly individual retraced the travels of early Chinese writers to pinpoint the location of Sanfotsi/Shilifoshi... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/lockingdom.htm

The Kedukan Bukit Inscription:

All hail and prosperity! In the year 605 of the Saka calendar, on the eleventh
day on the full moon of Waisaka, His Majesty took
a boat to make a profit. On the seventh day
on the full moon of Jyesta, His Majesty
brings 2000 troops and
312 people in boats from firth of Tamvan, With 1312 foot soldiers
and came to Matajap
happily. On the fifth day on the bright moon of Asada,
they docked and open a country ...
Great, prosperous and peaceful Srivijaya!

While the LCI... http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...t&p=4365527

In the Laguna Copperplate Inscription or LCI, neither there was never mentioned of Manila as already existing at that time despite Manila's importance prior to the Spaniards' Coming. Tondo was obviously much older than Manila. Many historians are claiming Manila as the youngest of the three Kingdoms on the same area. The other much older kingdoms according to them were the Kingdom of Tondo and the Kingdom of Sapa also known to them as the Kingdom of Namayan. They concurred that they were three kingdoms because during the time the Conquistadores came, there was an uneasy alliance accdg to them of the three Rajas or Kings. Raja Matanda or Ache of the Kingdom of Sapa, the Muslim Raja Mura or Soliman III of the Kingdom of Manila and accdg to them a Hindu ruler, Lakandula of Tondo.

Now these historians are confusing that there were three kingdoms among family members . Raja Matanda was the brother of Raja Soliman II, the father of the young Raja Soliman III. While Lakandula was also a brother of Raja Matanda and so another uncle of Raja Mura(young).


Much I hate sounding as repititious... http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?...t&p=4366184

To thresh out some inconsistencies(various sources have some inconsistencies, that's why):

There has been a confusion of three kingdoms(city-states) in Manila, i.e Kingdom of Tondo, Kingdom of Manila, and Kingdom of Namayan. So from below, you can see the relationships. the Kingdom of Sapa is synonymous with the Kingdom of Lusung or Selurung and Namayan which is now Sta. Ana was part of that bigger polity, Kingdom of Sapa. Tondo was a capital of Selurung(Lusong or Kingdom of Sapa) and not a separate Kingdom. While Manila was a city-state founded by Ragam with his son, Soliman I and his uncle Srilela or Ong Sum Ping.

An inconsistency was made by the Muslim Historian Rodil confusing Haring Araw of Borneo as the Madjapahit/Majapahit emperor Angka Widjaya. Because there is another person by the name of Prince Balagtas as the son and not Selalila or Sulaiman I. Accdg to the will of Pansonum, the sister of Sulaiman I by the name of Lady or Dayang Panginoan was the wife of Prince Balagtas. So Prince Balagtas was a brother in law of Soliman I. Another confusion made by the Muslim Historian was the confounding of Pansonum aka Fernando Malang Balagtas as no other than Lakandula. Pansonum was a grandson of Prince Balagtas while Lakandula was a son of Sulaiman I, the brother-in-law of Prince Balagtas. A descendant of Prince Balagtas was credited for the founding of NAMAYAN by the name of Lakan Takhan(Tagean)

Seludong or Saludung or Selurong was not established by Sultan Bolkeiah/Ragam/Raja Baguinda/Gat Lontok of Manila, Maguindanao, Sulu and Brunei or to be specific: Paduka Sri Baginda Rajah dan yang di Pertuan Bulkiah, known better in Southeast Asian History as Nakhoda Ragam (the Singing Captain). The Majapahitan and the Srivijayans would call the Ancient Kingdom of Lusung or Luzon by that name Seludong. Manila was established by Ragam after vanquishing Datu Gambang, the ruler of the Kingdom of Selurong/Luzon(whose eastern capital was Tondo) via his son named Selalila or Soliman I (accdg to the Will of Pansonum). Some source would say that Selalila or Sri Lela or Pengiran Maharaja Lela or Sulaiman I was (W)Ong Sum Ping, a Chinese prince of the Ming dynasty, the Chinese uncle of Sultan Bolkeiah. So, another inconsistency. As some historians would confuse the founding of Manila with Ong Sum Ping, perhaps it should be credited only to the son of Ragam and not to the uncle. So, Selalila and Srilela are two persons and not the same person, the former being the son of Ragam while the latter, the uncle. So, the Will of Pansonum seems more accurate. Or perhaps the idea of invading Selurung or Luzon and the establishment of Manila was the idea of the Chinese uncle who acted as Naval commander.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Nov 11 2009, 05:38 AM

[higaynon]

THis is a very interesting topic.MAybe in the coming years more evidences will be uncovered.

Kudos to trismegistos and to all who contributed.

Very Interesting and educational!

[Amihan00]

I think we need to change the name of our country to a more suitable name either Iraya(upstream) or Sapa republic will work because it expresses the riverine nature of our nation, aside from our current national language(which is used in social science) we should also add bahasa melayu as the language of instruction and also we should not discourage the students to use their idiom or language in school they should be free to use it anytime appropriate…