Korean descendents conquered China. Options

[altaicmania]

banned

This post has been edited by Gatts: Nov 6 2009, 11:00 PM

[altaicmania]

banned

This post has been edited by Gatts: Nov 6 2009, 11:00 PM

[altaicmania]

banned

This post has been edited by Gatts: Nov 6 2009, 11:01 PM

[Eastern_Knight]

what the fu-k is wrong with these people who make account after account? get a fu-king life.

[altaicmania]

banned

This post has been edited by Gatts: Nov 6 2009, 11:01 PM

[altaicmania]

banned

This post has been edited by Gatts: Nov 6 2009, 11:01 PM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

The video never claimed that Korea conquered China. Obviously the Chinese troll was attempting to troll bait you guys into this topic. You tool bags took his troll bait and fell right into his trap. The video makes the claim that the founders and descendants of the Jurchen Jin dynasty was Korean or had Korean ancestry. And they make a very very convincing argument. I did some more research and its even supported by western and *gasp* Chinese scholars. For instance-

of course korea never conquered china. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) what a silly idea.

Wanyan Hanpu the leader and founder of the Wanyan clan(which became the Jin dynasty) was from Korea and of Korean stock. According to Chinese records (the History of the Jin)(Jinshi 金史) , Wanyan Hanpu came from the kingdom of Goryeo(Korea) and lived their for 60 years. He left Koryeo with his followers(Koreans) and founded the Wanyan clan which would later become Jin. Just to give you an idea of what kind of the Jin were. The Jin dynasty massacred Chinese people, defeated Song, captured the Chinese emperor and his son and humiliated the China. Doesnt really sound like the kind of guy China should be proud of.

who said China was proud of Jin? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) nothing you said contradicts what i posted. what i posted is a far stronger link as i listed things actions they did (for ex. the moving of the capital to beijing, an act that was meant to try and legitimize the Jin emperors rule over "all under heaven"). besides not mentioning all the chinese elements they added into their ruling system.

humiliated what? Jin was destroyed by an allied Mongol-Southern Song. as i mentioned before, i acknowledge Southern Song as "China".

Another Chinese source written during the Qing dynasty states that Shilla and Jin royalty were related in blood. While completely alien to any Chinese dynasty. This was from a Qing dynasty source. Nurhaci the mighty leader of Manchuria even spared Korea during the Ming-Chosun-Manchu war despite Chosun siding with the Ming. Nurhaci remarked that they were "brothers" or something akin to it. I dont remember the exact quote, but Nurhaci and the Manchus(Nurhaci later died) treated Koreans fairly after the war.

The Chinese however were not given the same respect shown towards Korea. The Chinese were brutally massacred during and after the war. They were conquered, enslaved, humiliated and became a part of Manchuria. Korea on the other hand was given independence(too bad China) so long as they payed tribute(which was actually a 2 way deal). Chinese men were then forced to shave their heads bald and wear a pony tail. A sign of absolute submission and humilation. Koreans on the other hand were allowed to wear their hair however they wanted.

新羅王金姓則金之逺派. From Research on the Origin of the Manchus (Manzhou yuanliu kao 滿洲源流考) also states that Hanpu had 2 other brothers. One stayed in Goryeo with the rest of Hanpus family. The other stayed in Balhae(another Korean kingdom).

As you can see, its nots "ridiculous" to say that the Jurchen Jin dynasty had Korean elements in them. Its founder was Korean for christs sake. And this is supported by Chinese sources. LOL

The fact that the Jin called themselves Kim(Korean pronounciation of Jin) is also another convincing argument which you seem to ignore. As I mentioned earlier, Qing records indicate that Shillas royalty and Jins royalty were related in blood. This is important because during Korea's Shilla dynasty, the Kim clan of Kyungju were the absolute masters of the peninsula. They were the top clan and held much of the power. It is very very very likely that Hanpu was of the Kyungju Kim clan. Not only did he come from Korea, but he was related to Shillas royal family and his clan would become known as Jin or in Korean- KIM(gold) dynasty. Why else did they name the dynasty Jin?

i want everyone to see how desperate and weak these korean claims are. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) thx for giving everyone this opportunity.

respect? the Manchus invaded Korea TWICE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Manchu_invasion_of_Korea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Manchu_invasion_of_Korea

the second being QING. Huang Taiji the first Qing Emperor led Manchu, Mongol, and Chinese Banners and Mongol army of 120,000 to Korea. theres were the terms of SURRENDER

King Injo yielded up three pro-war officers to Qing, as well as agreeing to the terms of peace:

1. Korea submit to the Qing Dynasty.
2. Korea breaks away with the suzerain Ming.
3. Korea offers the first and second sons of King Injo, and sons or brothers of ministers as hostages.
4. Korea pays tribute to Qing as she has done to Ming.
5. Korea will serve in the war against Ming.
6. Korea offers army and ships to attack an island.
7. Qing does not allow Korea to build castles without restraint.

allegedly (i do acknowlege this) King Injo was forced to kowtow to Huang Taiji many times. to use your terms, to HUMILIATE him.


FYI, The Jurchen named their Dynasty the Jin ("Golden") after the Anchuhu River (anchuhu is the Jurchen equivalent of Manchu aisin "gold, golden") in their homeland. how funny you think it has anything to do with "Kim".

Need even more danming evidence. In 1115 Wanyan Aguda(first emperor of Jin) and descendent of Hanpu declared that Jin and Goryeo were brothers. This is supported in the historical text(history of Koryeo). Both Aguda and his older brother were recorded as calling Koryeo(Korea)- The mother country. Of course you didnt bother to see the video so you fail to grasp this historical fact. Jins first emperor regarded Koreans as family and Korea as the homeland. What did he think of the Chinese? He hated them. He considered them inferior sub humans. He waged war on then, murdered them, sacked their capitol- Kaifeng and caputred the Emperor himself. He turned China into his b!tch. Way to go.

The Chinese historian in the video also stated that Koryeo and Jin shared the same common language. The people of Balhae were also regarded as brothers to both Jin and Goryeo.

first of all, as another repeat, Jin was defeated by an allied Mongol-Southern Song.

second of all, they could not defeat Song even before Mongol alliance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caishi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tangdao

third, Jin Dynasty was very sinicized. here is them hating Chinese.

Prince Hailing - in 1153, moved the Jin capital to the site of the old Liao southern capital, which is now Beijing, and four years later he had the old capital razed, including the nobles' residences. why? he was a prince, nobody accepted him as emperor so he wanted to legitimize his rule. it is ALSO why he attacked the Southern Song. because apparently thinks the way I do, Southern Song was "China".

Emperor Shizong - Thanks to his mother and her relatives, Wulu received a good Chinese education, and had as good knowledge of Chinese classics as any Chinese emperor.[1]

"Modern scholars of the Jin Empire feel that Shiong's efforts to maintain and revive Jurchen language and culture were not particularly efficacious. The language lacked native literature, and his translations of Chinese works into Jurchen were helping to bring Chinese ideas and values into Jurchens' minds. In fact, the emperor himself once said that the Jurchen language was "inferior to Chinese", and could not even match Khitan. Outisde of the old Jurchen lands in far Manchuria, people did not see the utility of speaking the "dying" and "inferior" language, and Shizong himself was wondering if the posterity would criticize him for his attempts to force people use it"

(Jing-shen Tao, "The Jurchen in Twelfth-Century China". University of Washington Press, 1976, ISBN 0-295-95514-7. Chapter 6. "The Jurchen Movement for Revival", Pages 69-83.)

Emperor Zhangzong - he permitted Jurchen to follow Chinese funeral practices, and Tang and Song rituals are known to have been performed at his court in 1194. Resuming one of the projects of King Hailing, he established Confucian temples in all prefectures and counties of his empire.[1]
(The Jurchen in Twelfth-Century China. University of Washington Press, 1976)

course Jin dynasty emperors would favor Jurchen customs and traditions. but to attempt and trick people that they hated Chinese is funny. (repeat again, i still consider Southern Song "China", so ironically everything Jin did made them more Chinese is still pointless)

at the end of the day, as you can see. Korean claims are infinitely weaker than Chinese ones, focused entirely on an old silla link and cherry picked records. meanwhile, im giving you what the emperors THEMSELVES actually DID. btw i dont even claim Jin.

[freesky]

banned

This post has been edited by Gatts: Nov 6 2009, 11:01 PM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

banned

This post has been edited by Gatts: Nov 6 2009, 11:01 PM

[Eastern_Knight]

the better question is who actually gives a $hit about the jin dynasty?

[Mid-Night_Sun]

the better question is who actually gives a $hit about the jin dynasty?

that is a very good question. i might have said 5 times now jin is not claimed. southern song was china until yuan IMO.

you should ask some of the other members here why they are so desperate with this "love silla" word play and claiming altaic crap. all i did was show Chinese can claim Jin as well with much more hard evidence without having to dodge and weave with names and such.

[Eastern_Knight]

why would I bother to ask? the other members consist of: one Korean nationalist one altaic pan-nationalist and multi-account bash korea troll(s) all pretending to be different people.

[ShandongDaHan]

Wanyan Hanpu the leader and founder of the Wanyan clan(which became the Jin dynasty) was from Korea and of Korean stock. According to Chinese records (the History of the Jin)(Jinshi 金史) , Wanyan Hanpu came from the kingdom of Goryeo(Korea) and lived their for 60 years. He left Koryeo with his followers(Koreans) and founded the Wanyan clan which would later become Jin. Just to give you an idea of what kind of the Jin were. The Jin dynasty massacred Chinese people, defeated Song, captured the Chinese emperor and his son and humiliated the China. Doesnt really sound like the kind of guy China should be proud of.

Another Chinese source written during the Qing dynasty states that Shilla and Jin royalty were related in blood. While completely alien to any Chinese dynasty. This was from a Qing dynasty source. Nurhaci the mighty leader of Manchuria even spared Korea during the Ming-Chosun-Manchu war despite Chosun siding with the Ming. Nurhaci remarked that they were "brothers" or something akin to it. I dont remember the exact quote, but Nurhaci and the Manchus(Nurhaci later died) treated Koreans fairly after the war.

The Chinese however were not given the same respect shown towards Korea. The Chinese were brutally massacred during and after the war. They were conquered, enslaved, humiliated and became a part of Manchuria. Korea on the other hand was given independence(too bad China) so long as they payed tribute(which was actually a 2 way deal). Chinese men were then forced to shave their heads bald and wear a pony tail. A sign of absolute submission and humilation. Koreans on the other hand were allowed to wear their hair however they wanted.

新羅王金姓則金之逺派. From Research on the Origin of the Manchus (Manzhou yuanliu kao 滿洲源流考) also states that Hanpu had 2 other brothers. One stayed in Goryeo with the rest of Hanpus family. The other stayed in Balhae(another Korean kingdom).

As you can see, its nots "ridiculous" to say that the Jurchen Jin dynasty had Korean elements in them. Its founder was Korean for christs sake. And this is supported by Chinese sources. LOL

The fact that the Jin called themselves Kim(Korean pronounciation of Jin) is also another convincing argument which you seem to ignore. As I mentioned earlier, Qing records indicate that Shillas royalty and Jins royalty were related in blood. This is important because during Korea's Shilla dynasty, the Kim clan of Kyungju were the absolute masters of the peninsula. They were the top clan and held much of the power. It is very very very likely that Hanpu was of the Kyungju Kim clan. Not only did he come from Korea, but he was related to Shillas royal family and his clan would become known as Jin or in Korean- KIM(gold) dynasty. Why else did they name the dynasty Jin?

Need even more danming evidence. In 1115 Wanyan Aguda(first emperor of Jin) and descendent of Hanpu declared that Jin and Goryeo were brothers. This is supported in the historical text(history of Koryeo). Both Aguda and his older brother were recorded as calling Koryeo(Korea)- The mother country. Of course you didnt bother to see the video so you fail to grasp this historical fact. Jins first emperor regarded Koreans as family and Korea as the homeland. What did he think of the Chinese? He hated them. He considered them inferior sub humans. He waged war on then, murdered them, sacked their capitol- Kaifeng and caputred the Emperor himself. He turned China into his b!tch. Way to go.

The Chinese historian in the video also stated that Koryeo and Jin shared the same common language. The people of Balhae were also regarded as brothers to both Jin and Goryeo.

The evidence stacks up against you guys, its quite obvious that the video wasnt lieing after all. If you disagree, I suggest you write a convincing argument WITH EVIDENCE as to why the video is wrong in its claims. If not, then I suggest you fu-k off back to C-chat like you did last time. Then again, you're Mid-Night-Sun, the same kid who got his @$$ handed again and again by Korean posters. Most recently in the MMA rules topic LOL.

Have a great day.



LOL. And his is comming from a Japanese person of all people? The freakin masters of revisionist history. Why don't you get off the drugs and open a legitimate textbook?

so you're saying Wanyan Hanpu was a Korean and so was his followers and they just called themselves Jurchens and established the Jin Dynasty which actually is actually Kim in Korean and the royal family had the last name Kim so the Jin Dynasty must be Korean in origin?

that is the most retarded $hit i've ever heard.

first off Jurchens were 2 different groups. one called the "raw" Jurchens who were very primitive and warlike, did not know the concept of above ground shelter building, couldn't count their own age. they lived above the Amur river, beyond the Koryo kingdoms borders. then there were the "cooked" Jurchens, they were more civilized semi pastoralists who also did some agriculture. they lived in the Bohai area and they were subjugated by the Khitans during the Liao Dynasty.

the raw Jurchens are the ones that established the Jin Dynasty and it is the raw Jurchens that Wanyan Hanpu came from. the raw Jurchens absorbed their southern "cooked " brethren and overthrew the Khitans.
got nothing to do with Koreans or some lost prince of Shilla or Koryo or whatever dumb theories they have out there

lemme go ahead and entertain your little notion that Wanyan was "Korean". he would've had to go further north, live amongst raw Jurchens and adopt their way of life and customs and somehow win their hearts and get them to follow him. this would effectively mean he became a Jurchen . it is through lifestyle how the sedentary and nomadic/semi-nomadic differentiated themselves back then, not some modern racialist point of view like "blood" that Koreans love to do cause thats all they have

and i don't even need to get into the whole Qing/Manchu thing. to think that they somehow thought Koreans were brethren or treated them better is a hiliarious. Huang Taiji invaded Korea with Manchu, Mongol, and Han banners, and forced the king to kowtow repeating the ritual many times and had the King to agree to the conditions of recognizing Qing soverignty and pay tribute just like they did to Ming.
even the last emperor of Ming killed himself before submitting to anyone. no Chinese emperor begged for his life in front of a foreign invader. Ever

so you're little bitter tirade to embarass Chinese just won't work cause you have no substance

[chizzzae]

haha.

i love how chinese people flock to threads like this, simply to thump on their itty bitty chests.

it's hilarious.

i guess replying to a troll thread fills an emptiness and void they can't fill in real life. real shame.

[BurdenOfAges]

Interesting. So you start off calling this a troll thread and the OP a (Chinese) troll-bait poster (without any support whatsoever). Then you lay out an argument that agrees with him completely, but which has even less support, and is more inflammatory/offensive (since it's no longer a history argument but one designed to bash Chinese), and yet, in your mind, this does not contradict what you said?

This is what I don't understand about Korean nationalists. On one hand, you claim that 99% revisionist claims attributed to Koreans were actually by Chinese pretending to be Koreans. Yet, when KBS makes the exact same argument as those revisionists, you get behind it 100%. How is this consistent behavior? If you agree with altaicmania, Cheon1Son, etc., then stop calling them Chinese and recognize that the vast majority of revisionism regarding Korea comes from Koreans, including the Korean media (KBS is, if I'm not mistaken, an apparatus of the Korean government).

Which is exactly what I told you on that other thread, and which you repeatedly refused to acknowledge because you wanted to believe, for whatever reason, that Koreans aren't the sort to engage in revisionist claims. I beg to differ, and here is your proof.

Even though this topic was created in K-chat serious talk which is rarely visited by anyone(Koreans included). Somehow, for some odd reason, Chinese posters are flocking to this topic like mosquitoes to a pool of blood. I didnt discover this topic until just now and I spend 99% of my AF time on K-chat. That being said, you guys are so gullible. Read below.



Im 100% sure you are not Korean and just another Chinese troll pretending to be Korean.

Like this stupid Chinese kid who pretends to be Korean.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnasrkUFzX8



The video never claimed that Korea conquered China. Obviously the Chinese troll was attempting to troll bait you guys into this topic. You tool bags took his troll bait and fell right into his trap. The video makes the claim that the founders and descendants of the Jurchen Jin dynasty was Korean or had Korean ancestry. And they make a very very convincing argument. I did some more research and its even supported by western and *gasp* Chinese scholars. For instance-

Wanyan Hanpu the leader and founder of the Wanyan clan(which became the Jin dynasty) was from Korea and of Korean stock. According to Chinese records (the History of the Jin)(Jinshi 金史) , Wanyan Hanpu came from the kingdom of Goryeo(Korea) and lived their for 60 years. He left Koryeo with his followers(Koreans) and founded the Wanyan clan which would later become Jin. Just to give you an idea of what kind of the Jin were. The Jin dynasty massacred Chinese people, defeated Song, captured the Chinese emperor and his son and humiliated the China. Doesnt really sound like the kind of guy China should be proud of.

Another Chinese source written during the Qing dynasty states that Shilla and Jin royalty were related in blood. While completely alien to any Chinese dynasty. This was from a Qing dynasty source. Nurhaci the mighty leader of Manchuria even spared Korea during the Ming-Chosun-Manchu war despite Chosun siding with the Ming. Nurhaci remarked that they were "brothers" or something akin to it. I dont remember the exact quote, but Nurhaci and the Manchus(Nurhaci later died) treated Koreans fairly after the war.

The Chinese however were not given the same respect shown towards Korea. The Chinese were brutally massacred during and after the war. They were conquered, enslaved, humiliated and became a part of Manchuria. Korea on the other hand was given independence(too bad China) so long as they payed tribute(which was actually a 2 way deal). Chinese men were then forced to shave their heads bald and wear a pony tail. A sign of absolute submission and humilation. Koreans on the other hand were allowed to wear their hair however they wanted.

新羅王金姓則金之逺派. From Research on the Origin of the Manchus (Manzhou yuanliu kao 滿洲源流考) also states that Hanpu had 2 other brothers. One stayed in Goryeo with the rest of Hanpus family. The other stayed in Balhae(another Korean kingdom).

As you can see, its nots "ridiculous" to say that the Jurchen Jin dynasty had Korean elements in them. Its founder was Korean for christs sake. And this is supported by Chinese sources. LOL

The fact that the Jin called themselves Kim(Korean pronounciation of Jin) is also another convincing argument which you seem to ignore. As I mentioned earlier, Qing records indicate that Shillas royalty and Jins royalty were related in blood. This is important because during Korea's Shilla dynasty, the Kim clan of Kyungju were the absolute masters of the peninsula. They were the top clan and held much of the power. It is very very very likely that Hanpu was of the Kyungju Kim clan. Not only did he come from Korea, but he was related to Shillas royal family and his clan would become known as Jin or in Korean- KIM(gold) dynasty. Why else did they name the dynasty Jin?

Need even more danming evidence. In 1115 Wanyan Aguda(first emperor of Jin) and descendent of Hanpu declared that Jin and Goryeo were brothers. This is supported in the historical text(history of Koryeo). Both Aguda and his older brother were recorded as calling Koryeo(Korea)- The mother country. Of course you didnt bother to see the video so you fail to grasp this historical fact. Jins first emperor regarded Koreans as family and Korea as the homeland. What did he think of the Chinese? He hated them. He considered them inferior sub humans. He waged war on then, murdered them, sacked their capitol- Kaifeng and caputred the Emperor himself. He turned China into his b!tch. Way to go.

The Chinese historian in the video also stated that Koryeo and Jin shared the same common language. The people of Balhae were also regarded as brothers to both Jin and Goryeo.

The evidence stacks up against you guys, its quite obvious that the video wasnt lieing after all. If you disagree, I suggest you write a convincing argument WITH EVIDENCE as to why the video is wrong in its claims. If not, then I suggest you fu-k off back to C-chat like you did last time. Then again, you're Mid-Night-Sun, the same kid who got his @$$ handed again and again by Korean posters. Most recently in the MMA rules topic LOL.

Have a great day.



LOL. And his is comming from a Japanese person of all people? The freakin masters of revisionist history. Why don't you get off the drugs and open a legitimate textbook?

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Nov 7 2009, 12:31 AM

[chizzzae]

i want everyone to see how desperate and weak these korean claims are. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) thx for giving everyone this opportunity.

LOL cool story bro.

you probably made this thread yourself, your post wreaks of opportunism.

Dalai Lama is a Han Chinese

^ perfect example as to why noone takes chinese claims seriously. lmao

[BurdenOfAges]

so you're saying Wanyan Hanpu was a Korean and so was his followers and they just called themselves Jurchens and established the Jin Dynasty which actually is actually Kim in Korean and the royal family had the last name Kim so the Jin Dynasty must be Korean in origin?

that is the most retarded $hit i've ever heard.

first off Jurchens were 2 different groups. one called the "raw" Jurchens who were very primitive and warlike, did not know the concept of above ground shelter building, couldn't count their own age. they lived above the Amur river, beyond the Koryo kingdoms borders. then there were the "cooked" Jurchens, they were more civilized semi pastoralists who also did some agriculture. they lived in the Bohai area and they were subjugated by the Khitans during the Liao Dynasty.

the raw Jurchens are the ones that established the Jin Dynasty and it is the raw Jurchens that Wanyan Hanpu came from. the raw Jurchens absorbed their southern "cooked " brethren and overthrew the Khitans.
got nothing to do with Koreans or some lost prince of Shilla or Koryo or whatever dumb theories they have out there

lemme go ahead and entertain your little notion that Wanyan was "Korean". he would've had to go further north, live amongst raw Jurchens and adopt their way of life and customs and somehow win their hearts and get them to follow him. this would effectively mean he became a Jurchen . it is through lifestyle how the sedentary and nomadic/semi-nomadic differentiated themselves back then, not some modern racialist point of view like "blood" that Koreans love to do cause thats all they have

and i don't even need to get into the whole Qing/Manchu thing. to think that they somehow thought Koreans were brethren or treated them better is a hiliarious. Huang Taiji invaded Korea with Manchu, Mongol, and Han banners, and forced the king to kowtow repeating the ritual many times and had the King to agree to the conditions of recognizing Qing soverignty and pay tribute just like they did to Ming.
even the last emperor of Ming killed himself before submitting to anyone. no Chinese emperor begged for his life in front of a foreign invader. Ever

so you're little bitter tirade to embarass Chinese just won't work cause you have no substance

Assuming the records are accurate (this is a point of dispute for Western scholars), Hanpu was a "Korean descendant" in the sense that he was a Mohe from Silla, nothing more, nothing less. Thus, his ancestry depends entirely on your definition of what Korean means when applied retrospectively to the various groups that formed the latter day Korean nation. Now, the traditional view of Korean history has been to regard the Mohe as a non-Korean Tungusic group, but perhaps that is too simple, especially for a Mohe like Hanpu who lived in Silla. It's the same issue with Chinese and its component groups, actually.

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Nov 7 2009, 02:47 AM

[EvilAsianDude]

of course korea never conquered china. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) what a silly idea.

who said China was proud of Jin? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) nothing you said contradicts what i posted. what i posted is a far stronger link as i listed things actions they did (for ex. the moving of the capital to beijing, an act that was meant to try and legitimize the Jin emperors rule over "all under heaven"). besides not mentioning all the chinese elements they added into their ruling system.

Lol, the fact is. Jin Jurchen did not consider themselves Chinese. That the freakin emperor, founder and brother considered Korea the mother country. The founder of the Wanlu clan was Korean himself and so were a large number of the pilgrims who made the Wanlu clan.

How obvious do you want to get? Why do you ignore this fact?

humiliated what? Jin was destroyed by an allied Mongol-Southern Song. as i mentioned before, i acknowledge Southern Song as "China".

China despite is large population size was invaded, crushed, massacred and the emperor was captured and force to submit. If thats not humiliating, I dont know what is.

i want everyone to see how desperate and weak these korean claims are. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) thx for giving everyone this opportunity.

I already read your entire post, and the fact is. Korean claims arn't weak. They are legitimate and you have so far ENTIRELY IGNORED THEM. To make matters worse, everything I posted in the previous post came entirely from Chinese sources.

So why did you ignore them, like how you ignore 99% of anything you cannot seriously address?

respect? the Manchus invaded Korea TWICE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Manchu_invasion_of_Korea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Manchu_invasion_of_Korea

the second being QING. Huang Taiji the first Qing Emperor led Manchu, Mongol, and Chinese Banners and Mongol army of 120,000 to Korea. theres were the terms of SURRENDER

King Injo yielded up three pro-war officers to Qing, as well as agreeing to the terms of peace:

1. Korea submit to the Qing Dynasty.
2. Korea breaks away with the suzerain Ming.
3. Korea offers the first and second sons of King Injo, and sons or brothers of ministers as hostages.
4. Korea pays tribute to Qing as she has done to Ming.
5. Korea will serve in the war against Ming.
6. Korea offers army and ships to attack an island.
7. Qing does not allow Korea to build castles without restraint.

allegedly (i do acknowlege this) King Injo was forced to kowtow to Huang Taiji many times. to use your terms, to HUMILIATE him.

Actually, Korea was relatively undamaged by the invasion compared to what the Manchus did to China. Countless millions of Chinese were killed during the invasions. Followed by the entire country of China being enslaved and humiliated for the next few centuries. Whereas Manchu troops in Korea treated Koreans fairly. Nurhaci the famed leader of the Manchus even claimed brotherhood with Chosun during the end of the first war. Anyways to get to my main point.

1. Koreans payed tribute to Ming for mutualistic benefits. Look up the world mutual if you dont understand what it means.
2. No $hit sherlock the Manchus didnt want Korea paying tribute to the Ming. The Manchus simply wanted Chosun to cut of relations with the Ming and side with the Manchus. To which Korea eventually did.
3. On the other hand, Chinas royalty and government were massacred and lost all power they had. China simply didnt exist it anymore. It became new Manchuria. LOL. Every single comparison you make is a thousand times worse for the Ming. The fact is, the Manchus proclaimed brotherhood with the Koreans. And thats why after the war, Korea was still its own independent country. Had its own government and king. Own culture and customs. Meanwhile Chinese men were forced to shave their heads bald and wear a pony tail. The ultimate humiliation and act of submission.

The fact is, Korea didnt become a part of Manchuria after the ward. China however did become a part of Manchuria. They became the slaves. Pwned once again.
4. Korea payed tribute to the Manchus which benefitted both parties and was a merely a continuation of past customs. Meanwhile the Manchus rape, burn, pillage, loot and destroy China. Then enslave them for the next couple of centuries. Yup, Korea had is much much worse LOL.
5. Your point being?
6. Your point being?
7. Koreans wern't allowed to build excessive amounts of castles. Meanwhile ethnic han Chinese wern't allowed to live life as a free nation. Which is worse? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

]FYI, The Jurchen named their Dynasty the Jin ("Golden") after the Anchuhu River (anchuhu is the Jurchen equivalent of Manchu aisin "gold, golden") in their homeland. how funny you think it has anything to do with "Kim".

Funny thing is, its also means the same thing in Korean. Geum/Kim means gold in Korean, and the Kim family is translated directly into meaning gold. Pwned.

Prince Hailing - in 1153, moved the Jin capital to the site of the old Liao southern capital, which is now Beijing, and four years later he had the old capital razed, including the nobles' residences. why? he was a prince, nobody accepted him as emperor so he wanted to legitimize his rule. it is ALSO why he attacked the Southern Song. because apparently thinks the way I do, Southern Song was "China".

Emperor Shizong - Thanks to his mother and her relatives, Wulu received a good Chinese education, and had as good knowledge of Chinese classics as any Chinese emperor.[1]

"Modern scholars of the Jin Empire feel that Shiong's efforts to maintain and revive Jurchen language and culture were not particularly efficacious. The language lacked native literature, and his translations of Chinese works into Jurchen were helping to bring Chinese ideas and values into Jurchens' minds. In fact, the emperor himself once said that the Jurchen language was "inferior to Chinese", and could not even match Khitan. Outisde of the old Jurchen lands in far Manchuria, people did not see the utility of speaking the "dying" and "inferior" language, and Shizong himself was wondering if the posterity would criticize him for his attempts to force people use it"

(Jing-shen Tao, "The Jurchen in Twelfth-Century China". University of Washington Press, 1976, ISBN 0-295-95514-7. Chapter 6. "The Jurchen Movement for Revival", Pages 69-83.)

Emperor Zhangzong - he permitted Jurchen to follow Chinese funeral practices, and Tang and Song rituals are known to have been performed at his court in 1194. Resuming one of the projects of King Hailing, he established Confucian temples in all prefectures and counties of his empire.[1]
(The Jurchen in Twelfth-Century China. University of Washington Press, 1976)

course Jin dynasty emperors would favor Jurchen customs and traditions. but to attempt and trick people that they hated Chinese is funny. (repeat again, i still consider Southern Song "China", so ironically everything Jin did made them more Chinese is still pointless)

Shilla Kim existed long long before Jin came about. Chinese records(Jinzhi) indicate that Hanpu was an ethnic Korean from Goryeo. Another Chinese record states that he was related to Shillas royal blood line. Repat: Royal blood line of Shilla. Do you know what the last name of Shilla's royal family was? Wanna take a guess?

Answer: KIM.

Shilla was founded by a certain Korean by the name of Kim Alji. The Gyeongju Kim clan ruled Shilla for 900 years straight. So basically, Chinese records state that the founder of Wanlu clan was Korean. That he lived in Korea for the first 60 years of his life. That he migrated with his fellow Koreans into forming the Wanlu clan. And that his offspring would form the Jin dynasty and become its emperors.

Now ask me this, why the hell did the founder of Jin and his brother named themselves (Kim?). More importantly why does another historical record(History of Goryeo) mention that the founder of Jin considered Goryeo to be his brother states? Why did the freakin emperor of Jin himself and his old brother call Goryeo the motherland? Keyword: MOTHER LAND. Why? Why did they remark Korea as the mother land?

Jesus Christ, the evidence is so overwhelming.

first of all, as another repeat, Jin was defeated by an allied Mongol-Southern Song.

second of all, they could not defeat Song even before Mongol alliance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Caishi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tangdao

Not really, the fact is. Jin defeated Song China, massacred them and even caputred the freakin emperor of China. Now that is humiliating. You can argue all you want, but the fact remains that Song China got its @$$ handed to them by the Jin.

third, Jin Dynasty was very sinicized. here is them hating Chinese.

This argument again? Nearly all of China's neighbors were sinicized as well. Just because you wear blue genes, own an ipod and eat hamburgers does not make you American. I can see how pathetic your argument is to rely on a comment like this.

at the end of the day, as you can see. Korean claims are infinitely weaker than Chinese ones,

If they are so weak, why are you completely unable to find a counter argument? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

focused entirely on an old silla link and cherry picked records. meanwhile, im giving you what the emperors THEMSELVES actually DID. btw i dont even claim Jin.

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_rolleyes.gif) . Please say that to Jins first emperor and family whom stated that they were brothers with the Koreans and referred to Goryeo as the mother land.

[EvilAsianDude]

so you're saying Wanyan Hanpu was a Korean and so was his followers and they just called themselves Jurchens and established the Jin Dynasty which actually is actually Kim in Korean and the royal family had the last name Kim so the Jin Dynasty must be Korean in origin?

The concept of a unified Jurchen people did not exist until Jin came about. The Jurchen's wernt even a single race. The fact is, Chinese records indicate the Hanpu was an ethnic Korean. You can argue all you want, but facts are facts.

that is the most retarded $hit i've ever heard.

Then go ahead and try to play the game of history.

first off Jurchens were 2 different groups. one called the "raw" Jurchens who were very primitive and warlike, did not know the concept of above ground shelter building, couldn't count their own age. they lived above the Amur river, beyond the Koryo kingdoms borders. then there were the "cooked" Jurchens, they were more civilized semi pastoralists who also did some agriculture. they lived in the Bohai area and they were subjugated by the Khitans during the Liao Dynasty.

the raw Jurchens are the ones that established the Jin Dynasty and it is the raw Jurchens that Wanyan Hanpu came from. the raw Jurchens absorbed their southern "cooked " brethren and overthrew the Khitans.
got nothing to do with Koreans or some lost prince of Shilla or Koryo or whatever dumb theories they have out there

Got any evidence that Wanyan Hanpu came from a primitive and brutal tribe of people that was not related to do with Koreans? Or are you using typical Chinese bull$hitting to argue with me?

Read the Jinzhi aka(History of the Jin). Its a Chinese historical record that basically states that the founder of Jin was an ethnic Korean who lived in Goryeo for the first 60 years of his life. His family and brother remained in Goryeo while another brother remained in Balhae. Both Groye and Balhae being Korean kingdoms(how convenient). Another Chinese record mentions that Hanpu and Jins royal blood line was related to Shilla's royal blood line.

Considering that both Shilla's royalty and Jins royalty had the same surname(Kim=Jin=Gold) and both originated from Korea. And considering that Chinese records state that the two lines were related. I think its very obvious that Jin had Korean roots. Still dont believe me?

Another historical record states that Jins first emperor and his older brother regarded Goryeo as the motherland/mother country. And proclaimed Jin and Goryeo to be brother states. Really now? The first emperor of Jin considered Goryeo to be the motherland? The freakin MOTHERLAND?

Lol even Chinese historical records side with Korea. Its sad that you need to resort to making up history to support your weak argument.

lemme go ahead and entertain your little notion that Wanyan was "Korean". he would've had to go further north, live amongst raw Jurchens and adopt their way of life and customs and somehow win their hearts and get them to follow him. this would effectively mean he became a Jurchen . it is through lifestyle how the sedentary and nomadic/semi-nomadic differentiated themselves back then, not some modern racialist point of view like "blood" that Koreans love to do cause thats all they have

Or he and his followers could have brought a lot of advancements with them, which explains why and how Jin unified the Jurchens and became a powerful state within such a short time.

and i don't even need to get into the whole Qing/Manchu thing. to think that they somehow thought Koreans were brethren or treated them better is a hiliarious. Huang Taiji invaded Korea with Manchu, Mongol, and Han banners, and forced the king to kowtow repeating the ritual many times and had the King to agree to the conditions of recognizing Qing soverignty and pay tribute just like they did to Ming.
even the last emperor of Ming killed himself before submitting to anyone. no Chinese emperor begged for his life in front of a foreign invader. Ever

Ive already gone through this with Midnight sun. Read my reply to him. If you're too lazy to, let me just say that for everything the Manchus did, they did a million times worse to Korea. Wheraes Nurhaci proclaimed brother hood with the Koreans. He systematically massacred the CHinese and considered them subhuman. Whereas Koreans were allowed to have their own king, government, court, customs and culture. The Chinese were beaten, humiliated, enslaved and lost their country. They became a part of Manchu whereas the Manchus agreed to leave Korea alone and rule independently.

Koreans lived paceafully in isolation from that period forward. Meanwhile Chinese men were forced to submit to the Manchus by shaving their heads and wearing a pony tail. Just one of many examples of Manchuria humiliating China. When the Ming fell, the Chinese were systematically wiped out in large numbers. When Chosuns army fell, a treaty was signed and both sides benefited from them.

Really now, you still think Korea and China recieved equal treatment? Sorry kiddy, but the Manchus treated Koreans with a lot more respect. And went so far as to proclaim themselves as brothers.

so you're little bitter tirade to embarass Chinese just won't work cause you have no substance

Notice that you arn't able to provide a single historical record to prove your argument. Rather typical of Chinese debaters.

[EvilAsianDude]

Interesting. So you start off calling this a troll thread and the OP a (Chinese) troll-bait poster (without any support whatsoever). Then you lay out an argument that agrees with him completely, but which has even less support, and is more inflammatory/offensive (since it's no longer a history argument but one designed to bash Chinese), and yet, in your mind, this does not contradict what you said?

This is what I don't understand about Korean nationalists. On one hand, you claim that 99% revisionist claims attributed to Koreans were actually by Chinese pretending to be Koreans. Yet, when KBS makes the exact same argument as those revisionists, you get behind it 100%. How is this consistent behavior? If you agree with altaicmania, Cheon1Son, etc., then stop calling them Chinese and recognize that the vast majority of revisionism regarding Korea comes from Koreans, including the Korean media (KBS is, if I'm not mistaken, an apparatus of the Korean government).

Which is exactly what I told you on that other thread, and which you repeatedly refused to acknowledge because you wanted to believe, for whatever reason, that Koreans aren't the sort to engage in revisionist claims. I beg to differ, and here is your proof.

Incorrect. I called him a troll because this topic is obvious flamebait. It was created for the sole reason to annoy the Chinese into comming here and causing a ruckus. That is why he is a troll. If he renamed the title to something like "Hanlu being Korean". Or "Jin has Korean roots", then I wouldnt have labeled him a troll. However, he used one of the most inflaming titles imaginable.

And regardless, its still obvious that this topic was created by a troll. He's been banned already.