A Word on the Origins of the Wanyan Clan Options

[robot_devil]

You are so un-informed/ uneducated in this matter, i do not know why i bother, so i respond in point form.

-The Jin dynasty never conqured all of Song. Initially the were a weaking state, utilized by Northern Song in the Chinese tradition of using "barbarian against barbarian" to quell the Mongol threat. They later gained sufficient power to subjugate Northern Song into vassal-hood, later anexing it, but NEVER did it suceed in taking Sothern Song, the richer, more arable and fatter piece of meat all barbarians since time memorial crave. Southern Song would later lend the Mongols help in obliterating Jin.

- The Jin are Jurchen, not Manchu. Though Manchus have significant/majority Jurchen heritage, clan Asin Gioro is not desended off the WanYan clan of Jin, neither do they claim this. With this you are like Santa; confused. False premise --> invalid or no argument.

- There is no such thing as Manchurian. This is a term borne of western convention, used only in the west and by ignorant people who actually know very little.

I am not Manchu, but i have relatives that are married to people of Manchu descent, some of which actually claim royal association(though un-substantiated). And believe me when i say this, but none of them will say they are Korean.

This post has been edited by robot_devil: Nov 16 2009, 08:54 AM

[BurdenOfAges]

its common to mix up time and origins for chinese history for the sake of political power. authenticity is like a luxury you must remember.

the silla ties gave the jin and qing legitimacy. why those ties gave them legitimacy when conquering the rest of china, remains a mystery to me. bc they were manchurian dynasties. i think its like when the former head of IBM makes a new company, and says " Former head of IBM is the CEO" to make the new company more legitimate, thats about all that makes sense.

It's actually quite simple. The claim to Jurchen royal descent was to solidify their support base among the Jurchen tribes, who always made up a bulk of the Jin and Qing military forces. The claim to Chinese royal descent was not so important because of the Mandate of Heaven, which stated that anyone could rule so long as they obeyed the Confucian ways. The Chinese elite simply did not have the same obsession with royal lineage, which is why conquest dynasties stopped trying to claim it and instead tried to portray themselves as good Confucians, instead. They probably learned to do this from the many Chinese advisers they employed.

This is why Chinese scholars claim that the Jin and Qing rapidly "sinicized." They didn't do so because they were over-awed by Chinese culture. They did so because it was necessary to claim the Confucian Mandate of Heaven, without which they were open to mass rebellion. The Jurchens/Manchus always walked the thin line between political power and cultural identity; this is why Western scholars call them cultural chimeras.

It's all political opportunism, really.

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Nov 16 2009, 09:19 AM

[zhangqao]

Koreans want to be Chinese i see..

[kingtaeishere]

lol i don't think the prospect of being 5'2 appeals to many koreans, honestly.

This post has been edited by kingtaeishere: Nov 16 2009, 10:33 PM

[ShandongDaHan]

Family clan histories records all this information. What you call primary sources are actually secondary. But again, this has nothing to do with you historically.

you are a joke. what makes you think that YOU personally have any relevance to it. just because you are Korean, you think you have some kind of claim to the Wanyan clan when it was just one person who is MAYBE ethnically "Korean" from Shilla? don't tell me what does or doesn't have to do with me historically. Sushen, ancestors of Mohe/Malgal who are ancestors of Jurchen/Manchus, originated in Shandong who then moved NE and my both my paternal and maternal ancestors has lived there for thousands of years so it is far more possible that I have more to do with it than you ever will.
Koreans claiming the achievement of one person who may not even be Korean, how typical.

[Titanium]

BurdenOfAges, you are arguably the most intelligent poster on AF these days but you made a huge mistake starting this thread. As pure and academic as your intentions are, the majority of posters on these forums share no such intentions.

[ShandongDaHan]

i got a little hotblooded in my last post. I don't want this thread to close considering I have upmost respect for anything to do with history so I'll apologize.

[Chan-Ho]

BurdenOfAges, you are arguably the most intelligent poster on AF these days but you made a huge mistake starting this thread. As pure and academic as your intentions are, the majority of posters on these forums share no such intentions.

And a person like BoA is exactly what this forum needs. Someone who can uphold an objective and academic light to topics that are constantly barraged by trolling and distortions by those who seek to further their agenda. While I'm no saint when it comes to my own political bias, I have always based my arguments on logic and a certain level of objectivity. Fortunately for me, posters like BoA, Metacognitive and other intelligent and objective thinkers appear to agree with my ideas the majority of the time, proving once again that truth has a level of absoluteness - at least to the people who matter - despite the constant distortions that is practiced against Koreans both on this forum and online. Consequently, Korea's ties to the Manchurian region are among the most sensitive topics on AF, especially for certain nationalists who like paint a distorted view of history, and because of this, I strongly commend BoA's effort to help set the record straight.

This post has been edited by Chan-Ho: Nov 16 2009, 04:23 PM

[clarity]

It's actually quite simple. The claim to Jurchen royal descent was to solidify their support base among the Jurchen tribes, who always made up a bulk of the Jin and Qing military forces. The claim to Chinese royal descent was not so important because of the Mandate of Heaven, which stated that anyone could rule so long as they obeyed the Confucian ways. The Chinese elite simply did not have the same obsession with royal lineage, which is why conquest dynasties stopped trying to claim it and instead tried to portray themselves as good Confucians, instead. They probably learned to do this from the many Chinese advisers they employed.

This is why Chinese scholars claim that the Jin and Qing rapidly "sinicized." They didn't do so because they were over-awed by Chinese culture. They did so because it was necessary to claim the Confucian Mandate of Heaven, without which they were open to mass rebellion. The Jurchens/Manchus always walked the thin line between political power and cultural identity; this is why Western scholars call them cultural chimeras.

It's all political opportunism, really.

I happen to believe that the second the guy crossed the border and had it in his heart to join the new manchu/jurchen tribes, he was no longer korean. even their mission statement lolz "Love and Remember Shilla" is said from the viewpoint of a Malgal. but either way, you have interesting viewpoints and understandings. It's a shame that it will probably be overrun with chinese frothing-ness.

This post has been edited by clarity: Nov 16 2009, 05:24 PM

[Garengi]

This forum is not for discussing politics and history stuffs, there are better forums for these matters.
There is already same thread created at Chinahistoryforum, you guys can look it up because trolling is banned at these forums but they do exchange useful knowledge.

It doesn't matter if founder of Wanyan/Aisin Gioro clans were originally from Korea, it's like Normans or Saxons founding their dynasties in Celtic lands.