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China may be open to democracy in the future
KraterosHellas
post Oct 15 2010, 01:03 PM
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the CCP have met in Beijing to draw up economic plans for the next five years. amidst the Nobel Peace Prize row, china's agenda are increasingly becoming democracized. check this out:

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/artic...26890_3216.html

a summary of the essential points:

in the next 5-year plan, china wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.

china looks for ways to develop an economy that is not esport-dependent.

premier Wen jiabao has said "the calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistable" (in effect the china is admitting democracy will come and it won't be able to stop it)

some members in the CCP and the chinese media have said "if the chinese communist party does not reform itself, if it does not transform itself, it will die a natural death"
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phop
post Oct 15 2010, 09:41 PM
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QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Oct 15 2010, 02:03 PM) *
the CCP have met in Beijing to draw up economic plans for the next five years. amidst the Nobel Peace Prize row, china's agenda are increasingly becoming democracized. check this out:

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/artic...26890_3216.html

a summary of the essential points:

in the next 5-year plan, china wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.

china looks for ways to develop an economy that is not esport-dependent.

premier Wen jiabao has said "the calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistable" (in effect the china is admitting democracy will come and it won't be able to stop it)

some members in the CCP and the chinese media have said "if the chinese communist party does not reform itself, if it does not transform itself, it will die a natural death"


But it sure aint going to be western democracy, western democracy is bull$hit and too chaotic
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KraterosHellas
post Oct 16 2010, 12:33 AM
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it sure is. democracy often lacks direction and purpose. but i think the chinese brand of democracy will be more focused.
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phop
post Oct 16 2010, 01:05 PM
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One thing you need to know is that in a country where governments rule the government control society, in a country where governments do not rule and they are weak then the CORPORATIONS and businesses rule society. In reality nothing changes, business still bribes and huge corporations will use all means to get what it wants, western big car companies are involve with the drug trade working with the CIA, Of course the west want China to go Democracy the way it wants its big and powerful CORPORATIONS want to infiltrate china and control it, which country in the world have ever PROSPER when following what the IMF and all those WESTERN dogs said what is best for them??? I can bet you 100% none of them

This post has been edited by phop: Oct 16 2010, 01:11 PM
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sunshine90210
post Oct 27 2010, 07:19 AM
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Addition: The corporations rule the government as well
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sudowoodoo
post Nov 19 2010, 03:39 PM
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They are just talking about increasing some freedoms. Nothing close to electing their government. They basically follow singapore's model of government.
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starsiege
post Nov 19 2010, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Nov 19 2010, 02:15 PM) *
omg wtf.........



Its not hard to come up with equally damning stuff about China if one chooses to..or even post about stuff/pictures of/about dog meat..rat meat...and the meat of whatever that moves people eat there.. However, common decency and decorum requires people to behave in a civilzied manner.Collecting such pictures, and posting them on a site (as in the given link above) is no better than the actions of a person who goes on a f-bomb rant in the middle of a market. Any sane person would give such a culture-less person a wide berth. This is the reason why one does not see any anti-(insert name here) posts about other countries in the Indian chat. Actions speak more so than words. We do not lower ourselves to the same level as the low class folks who throw about insults and abuses.


However, on the contrary; one sees a veritable plethora of new-ids who pop up in that sub forum,bashing India and praising China; usually in the form of such lowly links/comments as the ones found above in this very thread. I see two of the recent culprits in this thread itself.(they got dressed down for trolling by the mods; in the Indian chat) The very fact that they create new ids and go about posting this crap speaks volumes about their deep rooted insecurity complex. After all, it is the empty vessel that makes the most noise.


Those who do this are but frogs in the wells who have no idea about how the rest of the world is. One could even hazard a guess that they have the mental age <= 10 years old...and/or that they come from a background/family that is clueless about civilized behavior/proper upbringing.


I'm sure there are educated and civilized Chinese in these forums, and the actions of the few do not reflect upon the entire people; however; when all one sees is such low class rants; one has to wonder if most of the sane Chinese have actually left this forum due to the actions of the aforementioned.

This post has been edited by starsiege: Nov 19 2010, 05:41 PM
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Taln
post Nov 26 2010, 07:15 PM
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China periodically advances tenets of a democratic rule, often to have it crushed by the corrupted bureaucracy that seems to us on the outside to pervade the middle and lower levels government to an extent that makes western federal agencies look streamlined (which they sure as hell are not).

If the weiquan lawyers can influence the Chinese government to enact fair laws, and then actually enforce them, a western democracy may not be the result, nor be needed. The problem is that with no system of checks and balances, and only party officials and the military to enforce the laws, it is bound to remain as it is. If the masses have no voice within the courts, or in the press, to hold those with power accountable then nothing is likely to change, except the names of those perpetrating the abuses.
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African
post Nov 27 2010, 07:51 AM
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Chinese democracy will never be like western style.
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KraterosHellas
post Nov 28 2010, 07:24 PM
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^western style is too free and chaotic.
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Suijen
post Nov 30 2010, 10:10 AM
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 I don't think he means full multiparty democracy. In fact, that's probably not necessary. What is necessary however is some way for the grassroots to control local leaders. Otherwise the incompetence/predation of the local leaders will piss people off to no end.  Freedom of the press, more insulated judiciaries, and better rule of law is not democracy per se (certainly elements required in a mature democracy), but they would help China develop. 

Closing the wealth gap isn't exactly "democracy". Increased freedom and rule of law is just a natural requirement for China; people have more money, they want more freedoms, and the government either responds to it or folds under a house of collapsing cards. The government has to adapt to the needs of society/economy. The leadership today is more educated and more professional (believe it or not) than the Chinese government 30 years ago because it needs to be. It still has a long way to go, but then again, China itself has a long way to go too.

If China rushed into democracy, you'd get disaster as China would be an illiberal democracy like Pakistan and Palestine. The majority of Chinese, with the exception of the real educated elite, are not ready for democracy. We're like one big land of free riders who couldn't give two damns about the law. Chinese society, and its mentality, has to evolve a bit more to develop a communal, or "democratic" mindset before China becomes a democracy.

This post has been edited by Suijen: Nov 30 2010, 10:12 AM
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MilknCereal
post Dec 3 2010, 01:23 AM
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I think it'll become more democratic in a sense, but never fully go all the way. The population is way to large for it to work. Sure there will be more freedoms but not like what the US has, otherwise like other said above chaos would ensue.
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MiddleKingdom1
post Dec 4 2010, 12:06 AM
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China will test trial democracy in Hong Kong in 2017 for Chief Executive (President of HK) and 2020 for LegCo (Legislature, usually filled with pro-Beijing business elite friendly politicians).

If it works in Hong Kong, it will be test trialed in Shenzhen ahead of 2047 close of "one country, two system", or 50 years after the 1997 return to Hong Kong.

Hong Kong-Shenzhen will be merged in 2047 (assuming democracy works in Shenzhen to match HK's democracy), and if it succeeds in Shenzhen, it will be scaled to China's urban centers and provincial level, and eventually to the national level.

China-Taiwan will be merged under the same accord

It will be a Chinese style of democracy, not Western style, meaning it will not be multi-party electoral system.

It will be SAME as democratic election of township and village officials right now in China, basically, China already has democracy, but not at the local, provinicial, or national leadership official levels, just at the township/village levels (800 million constitutents)

This post has been edited by MiddleKingdom1: Dec 4 2010, 12:08 AM
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Suijen
post Dec 14 2010, 09:40 AM
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HK is ready for democracy. Hopefully it'd be a better democracy than the WTF that is Taiwanese democracy, in which political representatives haven't matured since high school.

Chinese town and village democracy is a farce, which is expected considering that China hasn't reached a sort of societal development conductive to democracy.
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Hugham
post Dec 14 2010, 10:12 AM
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Yes, China will became a democracy.

But it will be different from the western one.


We don't want to repeat the same mistake again and again. Only short minded, idiot and blind man who will accepting western democracy 100%. Basically China today is already a people centric government, it can be called as democracy as well. Although in my opinion, there are still a lot of room for improvement, but it definitely will be better than existed democracy in the west.

Read China Megatrend, is good book for China version of democracy. Written by the best seller author of American Megatrend published in around 1980.


Well......so far it just a dream for the future.
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Hugham
post Dec 14 2010, 10:28 AM
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QUOTE (Suijen @ Dec 14 2010, 10:40 PM) *
HK is ready for democracy. Hopefully it'd be a better democracy than the WTF that is Taiwanese democracy, in which political representatives haven't matured since high school.

Chinese town and village democracy is a farce, which is expected considering that China hasn't reached a sort of societal development conductive to democracy.


Taiwan........sign embarassedlaugh.gif

I think this country is on the brick of collapse or left behind. Probably Taiwanese will make an excuse by saying that most of the talented people move to mainland China and left Taiwan into stagnant.

Probably they were right, but seeing how low Taiwan score in PISA. I can see their politicians are retarded. Their cities are also very ugly and dirty. This is not the duty of common Taiwanese people, this is not affected by a migration of Taiwan's most talented people to mainland, but this is the duty of Taiwanese politicians and officials. By seeing all of this, I lose my hope for Taiwan.

Manage and formulating Taiwan education system or clean up the cities, you don't need to wait talented person to return. Why no politicians or officials self-motivated to fix all of these?


Taiwan democracy is also a big failure. If the democracy as good like those western media portrayed. How can no one in Taiwan realize this problem and protest to the government? Or all of them are being hypnotized by their media and assuming Taiwan is OK?
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mndeg
post Dec 14 2010, 12:35 PM
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democracy doesn't work

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ClassicalMusic
post Jan 17 2011, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Oct 15 2010, 12:03 PM) *
the CCP have met in Beijing to draw up economic plans for the next five years. amidst the Nobel Peace Prize row, china's agenda are increasingly becoming democracized. check this out:

http://www.lemonde.fr/asie-pacifique/artic...26890_3216.html

a summary of the essential points:

in the next 5-year plan, china wants to close the gap between the rich and poor.

china looks for ways to develop an economy that is not esport-dependent.

premier Wen jiabao has said "the calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistable" (in effect the china is admitting democracy will come and it won't be able to stop it)

some members in the CCP and the chinese media have said "if the chinese communist party does not reform itself, if it does not transform itself, it will die a natural death"



Wishful Thinking, they must be foreign puppets to advocate for democracy.
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KraterosHellas
post Jan 18 2011, 06:05 AM
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QUOTE (ClassicalMusic @ Jan 17 2011, 04:51 AM) *


Wishful Thinking, they must be foreign puppets to advocate for democracy.


perhaps democracy is the wrong word. i take that back. that word is so heavily laden with western connotations. by democracy i actually meant china is becoming more mindful and considerate for prosperity and well-being of the common people.
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tseto
post Feb 15 2011, 11:14 PM
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QUOTE (KraterosHellas @ Jan 18 2011, 06:05 AM) *
perhaps democracy is the wrong word. i take that back. that word is so heavily laden with western connotations. by democracy i actually meant china is becoming more mindful and considerate for prosperity and well-being of the common people.



here is the full translation of the report in English, lets discuss the report, its content, connotations, feasibility of its intended goals. without our political orientation and personal differences. deep down I hope Dr, Sun Yet Sen's dream and his idealogy didn't died.


The Chinese Communist Party meets amid calls for democratization

The Plenum of the Communist Party of China opened in Beijing Friday, Oct. 15

Premier Wen Jiabao has created the surprise early October 15 with unpublished reports to U.S. television network CNN censored China, AP / Virginia Mayo
The Plenum of the Communist Party of China opened in Beijing Friday, Oct. 15 admids multiple calls for democratization in China, encouraged by the award of the Nobel Peace dissident Liu Xiaobo a week ago. Officially, the five-year plan 2011-2015, which is on the agenda of the plenary session taking place behind closed doors in a large hotel in downtown Beijing. But it could be the scene of intense political battles.

The 12th Five Year Plan should contain few surprises and validate the policy now to promote domestic demand to reduce the dependence of China's exports and improve social security coverage to avoid a further deepening the gap between rich and the poor. However, political reforms should generate debate, probably alive, as we approach the end of the mandates of President Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao in 2013

UNPUBLISHED REPORTS

Wen, generally perceived as more liberal than Mr. Hu, was created in early October surprise with unpublished reports to U.S. television network CNN, censored in China. "I believe freedom of expression is essential in all countries, he said, calls for democracy and freedom will become irresistible." "Recent statements by Wen Jiabao represent the opinion of a faction within the party that hopes to move quickly [on the reform plan], but this faction does not necessarily prevail, "said Willy Lam of the Chinese University of Hong Kong

This week, former senior officials of the CPC and Chinese media have challenged the government in a very direct style petition denouncing the lack of freedom of expression. "If the Communist Party did not reform itself, if not transformed, he will die a natural death, " say the authors of the letter published on the Internet before being cleared by the censors. On Friday, another bold letter gathering hundreds of signatures calling on leaders to free the Nobel Liu Xiaobo and other dissenters, and to "implement a peaceful social transition to make China a democratic country, endowed with rule of law worthy of the name

A week after the award of the Nobel Peace Prize, Beijing is still furious. Blaming the West, the Global Times newspaper, close to the regime, insisted Friday on the "progressive political reform" under way in China and "stability [that] the Chinese cherish


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