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Old Chinese, Was this really how it sounded?
Titanium
post Dec 29 2010, 05:13 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0

Any experts wanna give their opinion? It sounds nothing like modern day Chinese.
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sunshine90210
post Dec 29 2010, 07:06 AM
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QUOTE (Titanium @ Dec 29 2010, 06:13 AM) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0

Any experts wanna give their opinion? It sounds nothing like modern day Chinese.


It is supposed to resemble a favor of modern chinese dialet ? Most likely Shaanxi dialet?
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DOUBLEMINT
post Dec 29 2010, 07:19 AM
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This is stupid.Chinese character is pictographic.It doesnt matter how people pronounce it.
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LittleDeathAngel
post Dec 29 2010, 08:33 AM
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Wtf...

I doubt the accuracy of that video. >_>
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CYCLO
post Dec 29 2010, 09:12 AM
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sounds like Khmer
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chiuchimu
post Dec 29 2010, 10:52 AM
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this is what the video uploader had for comment
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Phjong | December 19, 2009 | 43 likes, 0 dislikes

We dubbed this TV show with Reconstructed Old Chinese!

The original one is in Mandarin. It is the famous story of Fengshen Bang, set around the 11th century BCE.

We pronounce according to the reconstruction of Old Chinese by Professor 鄭張尚芳(Zhengzhang, Shangfang). When watching, you maybe can tell that the pronunciation thousands years ago is so different from all modern Chinese that nobody would expect becomming able to understand it with only learning a modern Chinese language.

Dubbing with reconstructed ancient pronunciation is something not so common - and it is very likely that people have seldomly (if ever) tried this with Chinese.



Credits:

Instemast http://www.youtube.com/user/instemast2
蒲公英
Phyong http://www.youtube.com/user/Phjong
Umihebi/ うみへび
五陵遺少/mvrukrvmqhvm http://www.youtube.com/user/mvrukrvmqhvm

Instemast organized this project, and mvrukrvmqhvm translated lines from Modern Chinese into Classic Chinese text, and Phyong looked up their pronunciation in Reconstructed Chinese here: http://www.eastling.org/OC/oldage.aspx

All five of us took part in the dubbing.



About Fengshen Bang:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fengshen...

Fengshen Yanyi
simplified Chinese: 封神演义
traditional Chinese: 封神演義
pinyin: fēngshén yǎnyì

also known as:
Fengshen Bang
simplified Chinese: 封神榜; traditional Chinese: 封神榜
pinyin: fēngshén bǎng), is one of the major

translated as:
The Investiture of the Gods
It is set in the historical context of the overturn of Shang Dynasty(商) by Zhou Dynasty(周), but itself is fantasy novel, interwining numerous elements of Chinese mythology.
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orange peel
post Dec 29 2010, 11:35 AM
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QUOTE (Titanium @ Dec 29 2010, 06:13 AM) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0

Any experts wanna give their opinion? It sounds nothing like modern day Chinese.


dude there is no way a human can make those sounds, that sounds sooo electronic
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AsianGames
post Dec 29 2010, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (Titanium @ Dec 29 2010, 05:13 AM) *
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIkQSuZbbt0

Any experts wanna give their opinion? It sounds nothing like modern day Chinese.



Sounds so weird...LMAO
I doubt the accuracy of the pronunciation
It's easy to reconstruct the Middle Chinese because there are several linguistic rhyme books from Tang and Song Dynasties still available today
But linguistic rhyme books from the three kingdoms period (the oldest Chinese linguistic rhyme books) are totally lost
Enthusiasts can cross reference some ancient scores and poems to reconstruct a pattern, but hardly an accurate reflection of original pronunciation

As for the Modern Mandarin, it started out the formation process from the Song Dynasty
It is inherent largely from the Middle Chinese of course
A certain degree of Mongolian and Manchu influence in Mandarin pronunciation can not be disregard
One distinct feature of the Middle Chinese has completely gone in Mandarin and Northern Chinese dialects is 入声字(rushengzi)

入声字(rushengzi) are short pulse of -p, -t, -k at the tail of certain Chinese characters
They still exist in Cantonese, Hakka, Hokien, Wu dialects, Korean Hanjia, and Japanese Kanji
For instance, the character "国"(nation) is pronounced as "Gok" in Cantonese, Hokien, Korean, and Japanese
In Mandarin, the short pulse "k" at the tail of the character completely disappear

And the Modern Mandarin has lesser numbers of tones than the Middle Chinese
Whereas Cantonese, Hakka, and Hokien still preserve 7-9 tones


This post has been edited by AsianGames: Dec 29 2010, 02:52 PM
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foi2
post Dec 29 2010, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (Titanium @ Dec 29 2010, 06:13 AM) *
Any experts wanna give their opinion? It sounds nothing like modern day Chinese.


LOL, let's put it this way.

Say you know nothing about Mandarin, and have NEVER spoken or heard it before. All you have to go on are the English trans-alliterations of Mandarin. How close do you think your pronunciation would be to Mandarin spoken by the Chinese today? Not very good I'd bet.

Remember, This is with a PERFECT interpretation of the sounds from Mandarin to English. I.e. we know EXACTLY how the word translates to sounds in English. Reconstruction of most sounds in old languages are approximate, meaning they're little better then PURE GUESSES.

This is why I say most linguistic analysis beyond a couple hundred years is pure speculation. There's simply too little to work with. Things are EVEN WORSE with a non-alphabetical logographic language like Chinese.

Needless to say, the entire exercise is a practice in futility. The only thing you can be certain of is that the recording sounds nothing like old chinese, or any other language.
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InitialDJay
post Dec 30 2010, 12:27 AM
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do they have tape recorder in 100bc? embarassedlaugh.gif
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Shenzhou
post Dec 30 2010, 12:42 AM
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You know how they determine how Old, Middle, Modern Chinese sound like?

They just ask a bunch of rando Chinese dialect speakers to sound off a poem from an ancient dynasty.

Which ever sounded better when reciting the poems were probably more closely correlated with the ancient Chinese sound.

For example, I heard somewhere that poems from the Tang dynasty were read by and sounded most similar to Cantonese dialect of Chinese.
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XigonCongchua
post Dec 30 2010, 12:43 AM
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Most people here probably wouldn't accept but the reconstruction of Chinese isn't merely a bit better than guess work as some may think. The reconstructions are made based on rigorous comparisons of all Chinese dialects as well as Sino-Korean, Sino-Vietnamese, Sino-Japanese, and the related words within Sino-Tibetan language families as well. It's hard to list out all details as you all may not understand, but imo even though it's not accurate it should be quite close to the original sound.

Here are some other vids

Number 1 to 10 in Old Chinese
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6xZMyvIygw

Poems in Old Chinese
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bqt3_02lxGo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kucBQJFr3so

Independent works from different linguists give slightly different contructions (Ex: whether the initial was a kr- or a gl-, whether the vowel was an o or u) but overall, they are pretty similar to one another.

Edit:
Here's another version of the poem above done by a different person
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxhdW2yB-iQ
Another one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlWz-ZJPlSY

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Dec 30 2010, 12:58 AM
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Shenzhou
post Dec 30 2010, 12:52 AM
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I'm a Cantonese speaker, and under this video:

QUOTE (XiCoungHua)
Number 1 to 10 in Old Chinese
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6xZMyvIygw


I could understand and extrapolate what they were saying in Cantonese...

This post has been edited by Shenzhou: Dec 30 2010, 12:53 AM
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qaib
post Dec 30 2010, 01:15 AM
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lol

Old Chinese sounds like Mon Khmer?

I don't think they know what they're saying or these people must have been trying to pronounce the letters like how they are being pronounce alphabetically without realizing that the letters are being pronounce in a different context.

The "R" must have been "Qh" which sounds like the Hmong "Q" and "Qh" which make a soft R sound. Listening to the videos above, the R must have been "l" which sounds like the Hmong consonants of ml, dl, ql, bl, pl.... or qh, q, ql... just like the MR in old Chinese must be the same as ML in Hmong since pronouncing the ML in Hmong has a MR sound.

Open - Chinese (kai), Hmong (qh'lei)

Sickle - Chinese (li), Hmong (hl-ia) or (hl-a)

Chicken - Chinese (kai), Hmong (ql'ai)

There are many old Chinese and middle Chinese words in the Hmong-Mien languages.

This post has been edited by qaib: Dec 30 2010, 01:17 AM
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XigonCongchua
post Dec 30 2010, 01:23 AM
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QUOTE
The "R" must have been "Qh" which sounds like the Hmong "Q" and "Qh" which make a soft R sound


It's IPA, which is the common system of phonetic notation that all linguists used. Remember there's no alphabet in Chinese. Those IPA letters are used to represent the reconstructed sounds.

In other words, the sound was reconstructed first, then IPA letters were used to represent the sound, not the other way around, so it's not the matter of whether they know how a letter pronounced because everything is in IPA.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Dec 30 2010, 01:24 AM
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tianya
post Dec 30 2010, 01:27 AM
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QUOTE (orange peel @ Dec 30 2010, 12:35 AM) *
dude there is no way a human can make those sounds, that sounds sooo electronic


QUOTE (AsianGames @ Dec 30 2010, 03:12 AM) *
Sounds so weird...LMAO
I doubt the accuracy of the pronunciation


Old chinese has Alveolar trill.Alveolar trill exist in most of indo-european languages/ mongolic/turkic , as well as some tibeto-burman language and some sinitic language.
And alveolar trill disappeared in mid chinese, so most of chinese today have problem in pronunciating it. The guys in this video tried hard to pronunciate the alveolar trill------------------------------->the result their alveolar sounds very unnatural and weird.

I think old chinese sounds like khmer because of compound consonant like br/kl and so on. But khmeric doesn't have alveolar trill.




QUOTE (AsianGames @ Dec 30 2010, 03:12 AM) *
It's easy to reconstruct the Middle Chinese because there are several linguistic rhyme books from Tang and Song Dynasties still available today
But linguistic rhyme books from the three kingdoms period (the oldest Chinese linguistic rhyme books) are totally lost
Enthusiasts can cross reference some ancient scores and poems to reconstruct a pattern, but hardly an accurate reflection of original pronunciation

Correct, the first rhyme book was made in Northern song dynasty.


QUOTE (AsianGames @ Dec 30 2010, 03:12 AM) *
As for the Modern Mandarin, it started out the formation process from the Song Dynasty
It is inherent largely from the Middle Chinese of course
A certain degree of Mongolian and Manchu influence in Mandarin pronunciation can not be disregard
One distinct feature of the Middle Chinese has completely gone in Mandarin and Northern Chinese dialects is 入声字(rushengzi)
And the Modern Mandarin has lesser numbers of tones than the Middle Chinese
Whereas Cantonese, Hakka, and Hokien still preserve 7-9 tones

1. mandarin and standard mandarin r 2 different concept. Standard mandarin was an artifical languages made after 1949.
2. Mongolian and manchu's influence?
correct again: the loss of 入声 has no relationship with altaic influence, because both mongolian and manchu has -p/-t/-k.
not all mandarin lost 入声. Most of Jianghuai mandarin, half southwest mandarin region has 入声.
In southern, for example cantonese, have all -p/-t/-k, but in middle china like Wu/Gan/Jianghuai mandarin, a lot of -p/-t/-k r totally combinated into -h
So I think it is the trend that chinese would lost its 入声.

3. middle chinese tones r called 四声八调.So middle chinese only have 8 tones(of course chinese linguists and western linguists have different definition to tones.

QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Dec 30 2010, 01:43 PM) *
Most people here probably wouldn't accept but the reconstruction of Chinese isn't merely a bit better than guess work as some may think. The reconstructions are made based on rigorous comparisons of all Chinese dialects as well as Sino-Korean, Sino-Vietnamese, Sino-Japanese, and the related words within Sino-Tibetan language families as well. It's hard to list out all details as you all may not understand, but imo even though it's not accurate it should be quite close to the original sound.

Xigon, could u please stop showing ur poor knowledge on AF 24/7/365?
It is old chinese but not mid chinese. So sino-korean/sino-japanese/part of sino-vietnamese r totally useless here.

This post has been edited by tianya: Dec 30 2010, 08:32 AM
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qaib
post Dec 30 2010, 01:27 AM
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I don't think many of the words sound like how they are in the videos.

There was a research done on many Old Chinese and Middle Chinese words that are found in the Hmong and Mien languages.
I made a thread about it long ago.
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XigonCongchua
post Dec 30 2010, 01:29 AM
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QUOTE (qaib @ Dec 29 2010, 11:27 PM) *
I don't think many of the words sound like how they are in the videos.

Probably not if the speakers can't pronounce those sounds well icon_smile.gif You know how lots of people have troubles pronouncing consonant clusters and the glottal stops icon_wink.gif
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qaib
post Dec 30 2010, 01:31 AM
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QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Dec 29 2010, 10:29 PM) *
Probably not if the speakers can't pronounce those sounds well icon_smile.gif You know how lots of people have troubles pronouncing consonant clusters and the glottal stops icon_wink.gif



I agree with you. beerchug.gif
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tianya
post Dec 30 2010, 01:39 AM
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QUOTE (Shenzhou @ Dec 30 2010, 01:42 PM) *
You know how they determine how Old, Middle, Modern Chinese sound like?

They just ask a bunch of rando Chinese dialect speakers to sound off a poem from an ancient dynasty.

Which ever sounded better when reciting the poems were probably more closely correlated with the ancient Chinese sound.

For example, I heard somewhere that poems from the Tang dynasty were read by and sounded most similar to Cantonese dialect of Chinese.


Famous poem written in Tang dynasty
锄禾日当午,汗滴禾下土。
谁知盘中餐,粒粒皆辛苦。
In cantonese
co wo jat dong ng,hon dik wo haa tou.
seoi zi pun zung caan, lap lap gaai san fu.
Even mandarin fit the rhyme better than cantonese.
(I can't speak cantonese, so I maybe make some mistake in pronunciation.)
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