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Aklanons and Kinaray-a may be pre-Visayan, Cebuanos, Hiligaynons, and Waray-Waray are the true Visayans!
Prau123
post Jan 3 2011, 04:33 AM
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This website suggests that Aklanons and Kinaray-a people of Panay island may be pre-Visayan, and that the true Visayans are Cebuanos, Hiligaynons (Ilonggo and Capiznon), and Waray-Waray with Cebu being the base or center of the Visayan world.

http://lexadventures.multiply.com/journal?&page_start=20

Here is an excerpt:

QUOTE
"Panay has a large population of Karay-as and Aklanons who may antedate the Visayans. Among its neighbors, Cebu seems to have had a Visayan identity for the longest time.
Three major ethnic groups call themselves Bisaya and their language Binisaya. They are the Ilongo, Cebuano and Waray. No matter that they speak three separate languages and have three distinct identities, still they are collectively known as Bisaya.
Cebuano may be the purest form of Binisaya. Ilongo root words are mostly Cebuano, with a significant admixture of Tagalog. The Ilongos are also geographically close to the Tagalogs. Waray root words are also mostly Cebuano, with a significant admixture of Bicolano. The Warays are also geographically close to Bicol."

"Curiously, the Karay-as and Aklanons of Panay also consider themselves Bisaya. Binisaya is not how they call their languages though. They must be pre-Visayan peoples with their own proud history and traditions who have since coexisted with their Ilongo-Bisaya neighbors."

I've always suspected a discord between these two groups linguistically and culturally. Hiligaynons have an easier time understanding Cebuano, and vice versa. But Aklanon and Kinaray-a are further apart from the other Visayaon languages. Aklanon culture tends to be a bit more conservative or more traditional. They have a more rigid family structure. If the eldest child in one generations begets the eldest child of the next generation, then all the siblings and cousins are suppose to kiss-up to that person especially if it is a boy. This seems to be absent among Hiligaynons from my personal observation. Also, Hiligaynons occupy the lowland areas of Panay which is the eastern side of the island which is good for farming and development, while the Aklanons and Kinaray-a occupy the hilly and mountanious areas in the west. It is likely that during the Hiligaynon invasion of Panay that they pushed the Aklanons and Kinaray-a away from these lowland areas. The Hiligaynons likely continued their imperial expansion towards Romblon and Bacolod, and then onto Masbate, Leyte, Samar, and southern Bicol. I remember seeing a map of this expansion on the internet a long time ago, but I can't seem to find it anymore.

The website's article entitled "Who are the Visayans" by Jed Pensar continues on to describe how the Visayan languages stemmed from its center in Cebu. He proposes two hypothesis:

"One hypothesis is that Visayan consciousness and language spread from Cebu. Northwest it mixed with Tagalog, forming Ilongo, and northeast it mixed with Bicol, forming Waray. South to Mindanao, it retained its Cebuano form.

Alternatively, the northward spread gave birth successively to the Ilongo and Tagalog as well as the Waray and Bicolano languages. This hypothesis is correct only if it can be shown that Cebuano is relatively the oldest of the five languages while Bicolano and Tagalog are the youngest. Note also that Tagalog and Bicolano are intimately related to no other indigenous language in the Luzon mainland so it is not difficult to trace a Visayan root."


I'm hesitant to agree with the first hypothesis that Cebuano mixed with Tagalog to form Ilonggo, nor do I believe that Cebuano mixed with Bicolano to form Waray-Waray. Why would the Cebuanos first go to the Tagalog regions, and then form Ilonggo? Or first go to the Bicolano regions to form Waray-Waray? Unless, Jed Pensar is thinking that the reason why Cebuano split into Ilonggo is because of mixture with Tagalog, and the same is true for the creation of Waray-Waray by way of mixing with Bicolano. Otherwise, Cebuano would have retained itself as a language throughout the Visayas, and not split at all. This does make sense actually. Also the fact that Ilonggo has significant Tagalog admixture, and that Waray-Waray has significant Bicolano admixture as Jed Pensar had earlier noted.

By the way, the Tagalog and Bicolano that Jed Pensar is referring to are today's Tagalog and Bicolano, and not the original languages of the people of the Tagalog region or Bicol region who spoke a non-Visayan related language, and instead spoke a Northern Filipino language since they are Northern Filipinos. Tagalog and Bicolano today are related to the Visayan languages, and what Jed Pensar is saying is that when Cebuano was taken to the Tagalog and Bicol region, it then transformed into Tagalog and Bicolano respectively.

Personally, I like to think that the second hypothesis is true, that Ilonggo and Waray-Waray split from Cebuano with no admixture from Tagalog or Bicolano, but that's my personal opinion.

Jed Pensar is assuming that Cebuano is the center and origin of the Visayan languages in the Philippines which may be true, but it could also be not true. It could be that Ilonggo and Waray-Waray people were a separate wave of Visayans related to the Cebuanos, but not derived from them. Jed Pensar also does not take into account the Butuan Kingdom in Surigao del Norte which is the supposed origin of the Visayans in the Visayas. The Tausugs of the Sulu Archipelago actually speak a Visayan language, and may or may not be related or derived from the Butuan Kingdom. The only problem I have with the Butuan Kingdom being the origin of the Visayans is that the earliest date that can be assigned to it is around 900 AD which to me seems very late, unless the Butuan Kingdom was developed earlier. My opinion is that the Visayans may have been in the Visayas earlier than 900 AD, but that's my opinion.

Here is a linguistic map of the Visayan languages. You will notice that the Western Visayan languages (Aklanon and Kinaray-a) are yellow, the Central Visayan languages (Hiligaynon, Capiznon, Romblomanon, Waray-Waray, and the Bisakol languages of Masbate and southern Bicol) are in green, the Cebuano languages in blue, and the Surigaonon and Tausug languages in purple.



This post has been edited by Prau123: Feb 11 2011, 04:09 AM
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trismegistos
post Jan 3 2011, 06:31 AM
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I am wary of the term admixture. Shared cognates might be a preferred term. The same case as borrowings. It is said that ancient tagalog borrowed so much from Sanskrit. What if the scenario, that Sanskrit words shared some cognates with proto Austronesian(Austrics) like the Sanskrit word for female bai is similar to the Austronesian word babai. Do the Indians borrowed from the Austrics? Or the Austrics borrowed from the Indians? What if the common ground is true, they shared the same cognates for they share the same ancestors down the line of the family tree.

Austro Dravidian... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/lang.htm

Austric influence to India... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/austric.htm

Sumerian and Austric language connection... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/sumer.htm

Austronesian Navigation and migration... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/austro.htm



Just like the term usage of admixture in genetic studies, I prefer the term genetic continuum, transitition or splitting. Unless admixture is significant. Because of the sparse population in ancient times plus the castelike societies and some racial taboos banning intermarriages enforced by religion(proto-Hinduism shamanism) and politics, we have the diversity in languages, dialects and Phenotypes(subraces and ethnics) and so I don't think admixtures were significant during ancient times unlike today or in recent history. So, I prefer splitting or transition or continuum.

So, in terms of linguistics, because of the shared cognates between adjacent language groups, it can be termed as language continuum in the same token as genetic continuum.

So, I don't think Visayan intermarried with the Tagalogs forming the Ilonggos or in the other Prehispanic thread like the Kapampangans intermarried with the Aetas forming the Ilocanos and the Igorots. embarassedlaugh.gif And like Ocrap and ejay likes to talk about that Filipinos were hybrids of Amis and Negritos. lol

It is more like the Ilonggos are transitional between Tagalog and Bisayans. Or Waray Waray is transitional between Bicolanos and Bisayans. As people migrate and split they form different ethnic groups and a new language or dialect is born.

They simply shared the same ancestry which got split as they migrated. For. eg. instead of Filipinos are Amis interbred with negritos. Negritos shared same ancestry with Filipinos which split a long time ago and split to form the Amis as they migrated northwards.

btw, the French writer Mallat documented some beliefs among the Tausugs and the Butuanons, that the former were derived from the Butuanons.

I agree Bisayans were in the Visayas even before 900 AD. Tondo already existed even at that time as mentioned in the LCI. Pensar assumptions are to be taken with a grain of salt. Unless he can prove it by genetic, anthropological studies and not just some linguistic exercises.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Jan 3 2011, 10:03 AM
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philfighter
post Jan 3 2011, 08:06 AM
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The whole article is farce.

The viewpoint is basically that of a Cebuano, being referred to as "pure". I'm an Ilonggo, and I'm sorry to break your heart but I don't consider myself a Bisaya.

Kinaray-a and Akeanons, however, have a stronger affiliation for the Ilonggos than the Ilonggo have for the Cebuanos, let alone the Warays.
A HUGE MAJORITY of Ilonggos understand Kinaray-a (although not Akeanon). Only a few Ilonggos are fluent in Bisaya.

Again, this is a Cebuano-centric viewpoint, which is, well, discriminatory.
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Prau123
post Jan 4 2011, 03:13 AM
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QUOTE (trismegistos @ Jan 3 2011, 07:31 AM) *
I am wary of the term admixture. Shared cognates might be a preferred term. The same case as borrowings. It is said that ancient tagalog borrowed so much from Sanskrit. What if the scenario, that Sanskrit words shared some cognates with proto Austronesian(Austrics) like the Sanskrit word for female bai is similar to the Austronesian word babai. Do the Indians borrowed from the Austrics? Or the Austrics borrowed from the Indians? What if the common ground is true, they shared the same cognates for they share the same ancestors down the line of the family tree.

Austro Dravidian... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/lang.htm

Austric influence to India... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/austric.htm

Sumerian and Austric language connection... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/sumer.htm

Austronesian Navigation and migration... http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/austro.htm



Just like the term usage of admixture in genetic studies, I prefer the term genetic continuum, transitition or splitting. Unless admixture is significant. Because of the sparse population in ancient times plus the castelike societies and some racial taboos banning intermarriages enforced by religion(proto-Hinduism shamanism) and politics, we have the diversity in languages, dialects and Phenotypes(subraces and ethnics) and so I don't think admixtures were significant during ancient times unlike today or in recent history. So, I prefer splitting or transition or continuum.

So, in terms of linguistics, because of the shared cognates between adjacent language groups, it can be termed as language continuum in the same token as genetic continuum.

So, I don't think Visayan intermarried with the Tagalogs forming the Ilonggos or in the other Prehispanic thread like the Kapampangans intermarried with the Aetas forming the Ilocanos and the Igorots. embarassedlaugh.gif And like Ocrap and ejay likes to talk about that Filipinos were hybrids of Amis and Negritos. lol

It is more like the Ilonggos are transitional between Tagalog and Bisayans. Or Waray Waray is transitional between Bicolanos and Bisayans. As people migrate and split they form different ethnic groups and a new language or dialect is born.

They simply shared the same ancestry which got split as they migrated. For. eg. instead of Filipinos are Amis interbred with negritos. Negritos shared same ancestry with Filipinos which split a long time ago and split to form the Amis as they migrated northwards.

btw, the French writer Mallat documented some beliefs among the Tausugs and the Butuanons, that the former were derived from the Butuanons.

I agree Bisayans were in the Visayas even before 900 AD. Tondo already existed even at that time as mentioned in the LCI. Pensar assumptions are to be taken with a grain of salt. Unless he can prove it by genetic, anthropological studies and not just some linguistic exercises.


As you mentioned, I don't think Ilonggo came from Cebuano mixing with Tagalog, although I don't want to necessarily rule that out. My thinking is that the Ilonggos were a later migration from the Butuan Kingdom, and established themselves in present day Iloilo driving the incumbent Aklanons (Akeanons) and Kinaray-a from the eastern lowland areas into the hilly and mountainous areas of western Panay. The Ilonggos likely did this in order to compete with the Cebuanos in maritime trade. The Cebuanos were one of the first groups to migrate from the Butuan kingdom, and settle in present day Cebu, and this probably happened organically as a result of the trade routes within the Visayas. This is just my theory, so please everyone don't get upset.

The Akeanons and Kinaray-a may have come from the Butuan kingdom also, but also possibly from a different source, perhaps directly from Borneo according to the 10 Datu Legend. It is of my opinion, that the Akeanons and the Kinaray-a are the Borneans settlers of the 10 Datu Legend, and not the Hiligaynons who arrived later. I base this on the following reasons:

1) The Ati-Atihan Festival likely originated in Aklan, and specifically in the town of Kalibo. It is the most traditional and conservative of the Ati-Atihan type of Festivals. The other festivals from the other Western Visayan provinces...

Dinagyang of Iloilo
Halaran of Capiz
Binirayan of Antique
MassKara of Bacolod
Biniray Festival of Romblon, Romblon

...gradually stem away from the original tradition of painting oneself with black soot, and dancing around like an Ati. The MassKara of Bacolod uses a lot of colorful paint and Venetian-like masks.

2) The Hiligaynons occupy the eastern lowlands of Panay which are good for farming and development, face east towards the other Visayan islands which is good for inter-island trade, and occupy present day Iloilo which is the best harbor in Panay Island since it is protected by Guimaras Island.

3) Hiligaynon is linguistically more related to Romblomanon of Romblon, Mabatenyo of Masbate, Waray-Waray of northern Leyte and all of Samar, and the other Bisakol languages of southern Bicol as compared to Akeanon and Kinaray-a. Why would this phenomenon happen?

4) We should consider different waves of Visayan migration other than Cebuanos, Hiligaynons, and Waray-Waray. The Bantoanon of Romblon province who speak the Asi language which is another Visayan language may have been the first wave of Visayan to reach Western Visayas, and in particular to Romblon province. Please see this Wikipedia article on the Asi language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asi_language

Here is an excerpt:

QUOTE
David Zorc notes that Bantuanon speakers may have been the first Visayan speakers in the Romblon region. He also suggests that Bantuanon may have a Cebuan substratum and that many of its words may have been influenced by the later influx of other languages such as Romblomanon


The Asi language is unrelated to the Western Visayan languages such as Akeanon, Kinaray-a, and Onhan and yet they border each other. The Asi language is also unrelated to Hiligaynon, Cebuano, and all the other Visayan languages. It is a Visayan language of its own. It is likely that the Bantoanon (Asi speakers) may have been to Panay and Romblon first, but the later coming Akeanon/Kinaray-a/Onhan speakers woud push them to the western peripheries of the Romblon islands. The Akeanon/Kinaray-a/Onhan speakers were in turn pushed to the western side of Panay island and Tablas island of Romblon province by the later coming Hiligaynons.

5) Jed Pensar, the author of the website article, concluded that Akeanons and Kinaray-a are pre-Visayan based upon his linguistic analysis under the assumption that Cebuano is the most pure form of Bisaya, and that all other Visayan people originate from them. This assumption can be right, or can be wrong. But let's assume it's right for now. Jed Pensar, through his linguistic analysis, was able to conclude that Ilonggo (Hiligaynon) and Waray-Waray are related to Cebuano because their root words are mostly Cebuano, but could not conclude that most of the root words of Akeanon and Kinaray-a are Cebuano, and therefore could not conclude that Akeanon and Kinaray-a are related to Cebuano or the Cebuano related languages such as Ilonggo and Waray-Waray. This might be a fair argument by Jed Pensar even if his original assumption that Cebuano is the most pure form of Visayan is wrong, and that his linguistic analysis was based upon that. But again, it could also be wrong, and I will let the linguistic community make this decision.

6) As mentioned from a previous post, Akeanons (and perhaps Kinaray-a as well, but I don't know too many Kinaray-a people unfortunately) seem to have a more traditionally conservative culture and slightly rigid family social structure. As the example I gave before, when the eldest child of one generation begets the eldest child of the next generation, that eldest child's siblings and cousins are suppose to patronize him or her. It would be preferable also if that eldest child was a boy. That child throughout much of his or her life will benefit from the adoration and support of his siblings and cousins, and not really doing anything to deserve it, except be born. I don't see this cultural phenomenon among Hiligaynons.

Another cultural trait is the tendency for Akeanons to be more group oriented versus individualistic oriented. For example, if a family wants to make an important decision such as buying or selling a house, or moving to a different city or province/state, they will usually wait for the decisions of the other relatives or friends within their "barcada" group, and they will often look at the "alpha-family" which is often the family of the eldest child of their generation. There is a funny saying "if one turns their head to the right, then everyone follows and turns their head to the right; and if one turns their head to the left, then everyone follows and turns their head to the left". But what if the one leading is wrong? Hiligaynons, in my opinion, are more individualistic and follow their own path. Again, this is just a generalization that I've observed.

Akeanons quickly form barcadas, join clubs and organization, are socio-politically competitive in a social situation. Loyalty is very much appreciated. Hierarchy and rankings are observed. They tend to solve their problem using political tools such as the formation of committees, organizations, and etc. Whereas, Hiligaynons will tend to solve problems using business tools, and at a more individualistic level.

Lastly, Akeanons are adventurous people, have an appreciation for nature, are culturally-minded, athletically built, and are slightly darker compared to Hiligaynons. They also know how to have fun in a very genuine way. Hiligaynons tend to stay at home, are more sophisticated in business and money matters, are imaginative and have an appreciation for imagination and creativity, and sometimes have defensive personalities. Of course these are generalizations with many exceptions, and the environment and their history may be a factor.


QUOTE (philfighter @ Jan 3 2011, 09:06 AM) *
The whole article is farce.

The viewpoint is basically that of a Cebuano, being referred to as "pure". I'm an Ilonggo, and I'm sorry to break your heart but I don't consider myself a Bisaya.

Kinaray-a and Akeanons, however, have a stronger affiliation for the Ilonggos than the Ilonggo have for the Cebuanos, let alone the Warays.
A HUGE MAJORITY of Ilonggos understand Kinaray-a (although not Akeanon). Only a few Ilonggos are fluent in Bisaya.

Again, this is a Cebuano-centric viewpoint, which is, well, discriminatory.


Jed Pensar's analysis and conclusion may be wrong, and I also believe that his assumptions are wrong that Cebuano is the most pure form of Visayan, and that all Visayan people derive from them. I just wanted to bring it out for everyone to look at and discuss. Hopefully one of these days, this problem will be resolved. Many of those Ilonggo speakers in Iloilo province are likely Kinaray-a people or have Kinaray-a ancestary, and in fact approximately half the geographical area of Iloilo province are Kinaray-a even though they speak Ilonggo. The same goes with Capiz, the western most town are actually Akeanon speakers and not Capiznon (which is very closely related to Ilonggo). I do think that Ilonggos and Kinaray-a/Akeanon speakers are related, but I just don't know how closely related they are.


If you want to see map of where the Asi language is spoken, please see below, it is the language in red found in the Romblon islands:



This post has been edited by Prau123: Jan 4 2011, 04:23 AM
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silangan
post Jan 4 2011, 03:34 PM
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I always think Ilonggos generally look physically more south Luzonian than Visayan even with their Visayan language.

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Prau123
post Jan 4 2011, 08:09 PM
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QUOTE (silangan @ Jan 4 2011, 03:34 PM) *
I always think Ilonggos generally look physically more south Luzonian than Visayan even with their Visayan language.


The only Tagalogs I've seen are from the Manila area, and assuming if they are pure Tagalog, then they do look somewhat Ilonggo, but still slightly different which should be expected. I always view Tagalogs being slightly taller and slightly darker. I think the Tagalog region is not homogenous. There may be different groups of people there that have adopted Tagalog as their language, but are not the actual "true Tagalog people" whatever that may mean. I don't even know what a Tagalog person is anymore since their origins are very unclear. The same goes with the Bicolanos.

I do notice a slight difference between Ilonggos and Cebuanos. They are about the same height, but Cebuanos are slightly darker. Cebuanos are less inhibited also which is something Cebuanos should be very proud of. They are a very proud group of people, and have strong personalities. I haven't been to Leyte or Samar to sample what Waray-Waray people look like in general. I've seen some Waray-Waray, but only a few.
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silangan
post Jan 4 2011, 09:43 PM
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QUOTE (Prau123 @ Jan 4 2011, 09:09 PM) *
The only Tagalogs I've seen are from the Manila area, and assuming if they are pure Tagalog, then they do look somewhat Ilonggo, but still slightly different which should be expected. I always view Tagalogs being slightly taller and slightly darker. I think the Tagalog region is not homogenous. There may be different groups of people there that have adopted Tagalog as their language, but are not the actual "true Tagalog people" whatever that may mean. I don't even know what a Tagalog person is anymore since their origins are very unclear. The same goes with the Bicolanos.

I do notice a slight difference between Ilonggos and Cebuanos. They are about the same height, but Cebuanos are slightly darker. Cebuanos are less inhibited also which is something Cebuanos should be very proud of. They are a very proud group of people, and have strong personalities. I haven't been to Leyte or Samar to sample what Waray-Waray people look like in general. I've seen some Waray-Waray, but only a few.



Cebuanos (which include Bol-anon and South Leytens) come in different shades too. Many are tan. Some are light skinned. But the expression on their faces look more southern. I sometimes wonder why Ilonggos speak Visayan when they don't generally look like their Visayan neighbors.
I think Tagalogs who come from provinces north of Manila look different from Tagalogs that come from Batangas or North Camarines.
The Tagalogs from Manila is so unreliable to serve as the basis. Manila is so mixed. Arnel Pineda of Journey, I think would be a typical facial feature of Tagalogs from north of Manila or anybody coming from Central Luzon area. I've seen few Waray Warays too.
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Prau123
post Jan 5 2011, 12:33 PM
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QUOTE (silangan @ Jan 4 2011, 09:43 PM) *
Cebuanos (which include Bol-anon and South Leytens) come in different shades too. Many are tan. Some are light skinned. But the expression on their faces look more southern. I sometimes wonder why Ilonggos speak Visayan when they don't generally look like their Visayan neighbors.
I think Tagalogs who come from provinces north of Manila look different from Tagalogs that come from Batangas or North Camarines.
The Tagalogs from Manila is so unreliable to serve as the basis. Manila is so mixed. Arnel Pineda of Journey, I think would be a typical facial feature of Tagalogs from north of Manila or anybody coming from Central Luzon area. I've seen few Waray Warays too.


Yes, you're right, there are many Cebuanos that are light skinned. Cebuanos do have that southern look, and the people in Davao have it too, and maybe even a little bit more.


This post has been edited by Prau123: Jan 5 2011, 12:48 PM
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katipunan
post Feb 2 2011, 02:40 PM
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The only ethnic group we today can be talking about is the filipino people. This thread is straight up idiotic it is obvious that people from mindanao look very identical to people from Luzon. And when it comes to cultural traditions the spaniards assimilated us for 333 years, that is why it is impossible to talk about ethnic groups when it comes to filipinos. Ifugaos and so on still got very different traditions from the rest so they can be called an ethnic group. By the way Jesus died 33 years old and Philippines was colonized for 333 years is that enough to prove the point that we are the chosen ones?
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datumarco
post Feb 3 2011, 05:56 AM
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QUOTE (philfighter @ Jan 3 2011, 09:06 AM) *
The whole article is farce.

The viewpoint is basically that of a Cebuano, being referred to as "pure". I'm an Ilonggo, and I'm sorry to break your heart but I don't consider myself a Bisaya.

Kinaray-a and Akeanons, however, have a stronger affiliation for the Ilonggos than the Ilonggo have for the Cebuanos, let alone the Warays.
A HUGE MAJORITY of Ilonggos understand Kinaray-a (although not Akeanon). Only a few Ilonggos are fluent in Bisaya.

Again, this is a Cebuano-centric viewpoint, which is, well, discriminatory.


i agree - its all pure conjecture on his part -
my mom is an ilonggo who speaks kinaray, my dad is from antique who speaks kiniray.a, if you want to know where hiligaynon, karay.a and akeanon came from - you can go to the sulod panay in the hinterlands and you can talk to them - their language is unintelligible from its three decendant languages.

akeanon, karay. a and ilonggo originated from the same mother tongue but drifted apart from each other.

common rules for changing from hinilawod to hiniray.a to akeanon,

in karay, dominant letter is R, in hinilawod its L (the chinses seldom have r sounds and in akeanon its AEAG

so in karay.a its "karaha" in hinilawod its "kalaha, in akeanon its "kaeaha"

reason: ilonggo originated from the trading language hinilawod, essentially ancient hiligaynon referred to the language of both upland and lowland. Hiligaynon is from the word "ilig" means to flow, the upland language is called hiniray.a or karay.a from word iraya "upland or going towards the mountains" while the ilonggo/hinilawod what we now refer as hiligaynon was the lowland language from the word "lawod". Akeanon developed seperately because according to folklore thier datus were a tyrannical bunch who lisped when they spoke. might have been a court language as well since ilonggo folklore (we dont care if you believe it or not) says that aklan is where the leaders of madyaas (our ancient confederation - which had no relationship with ancient cebu) ruled.

during the spanish era, the chines were segregated on districts called parian. The current hiligaynon developed in the parian district of molo as a creole language/mixed language used by the spanish/chines mestizos. The spanish then utilzed the language as a lingua franca for literature, trade and business. It was special language of the landed class and gained popularity in enconomiendas and haciendas because it was the language of the "principalia", take a look of the map of panay and notice that hiligaynon is confined to iloilo city, the northern part (which include the sugarcane haciendas, up to parts of capi, also take not that kara.y is still the dominant language at home and once you go out of iloilo city it becomes karay.a country. on the other hand, the early 1900 and late 1800's saw the emigration of ilonggos (antiquenos, akeanon, capizenos and ilonggos - that's our ethnic group - akeanon, karay,a would refer to our language and not our ethnic group) to negros due to the economic collapse brought about by the demise of the textile industry (the spinning jenny of the industrial revolution made the textile industry of panay obsolete). So the lacson of antique and iloilo, the lopezes, the javellanas, the torres and anyone in panay who had cash bought lands and started their cash crops/haciendas in negros (you can trace all of them back here in panay if you did some research) - most of these are karay.a (the common tao) - they kept calling these people sakada- that would mean that language is not equal to or reflective of ethnicity. these common tao started emulating their bosses and started speaking in "sina " which is what we now call as hiligaynon. Thus a creole/specialized trading language became a major language. - the commonality between cebuano and hiligaynon ilonggo is not because you - cebuanos colonized us - the similarity is because we have very big chinese populations which changed our languages.

On the other hand kara.a differs from town to town in PANAY, the major differences are caused by geographcal separation. So most kara.a speakers can be grouped in one area or town with each are having a distinct accent/dialect. - with these dialects being mutuallly understandable to each other. There is a degree of "karay.a ness" being retained and imparted in town which may sound to observers as ilonggo. You can distingush this by listening to the intonation and accent, even though the words are hinilawod.

The least affected by the spread of hinilawod is the province of antique, which was because of its geographical isolation (separated by mountain ranges from the rest of panay) and its politcial segragation during the spanish era. It was closed by spanish authorities for at least a 100 years.

karay.a music is making acomeback - and I'v never heard anyone in Iloilo complaining they didnt understand it. The music is vey popular and can be heard anywhere there's an ilonggo - be they hinilawod or karay.a speaker.

on the subject of bisaya - i belive that as late as the 1950's the cebuanos didnt associate themselves with the word "bisaya" in fact - they always insisted that they are to be called "sugbuanon". historically, the word bisaya did not refer to cebu but to the islands and people of panay, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Madyaas: The Confederation of Madya-as was a pre-Hispanic Philippine state within the Visayas island region. It was established in the 13th century by rebel datus (chiefs), led by Datu Puti, who had fled from Rajah Makatunao of Borneo. The semi-democratic confederation reached its peak during the 15th century under the leadership Datu Padojinog when it warred against the Chinese Empire, the Rajahnate of Butuan, and the sultanates of Sulu and Maguindanao. It was also feared by the people of the Kingdom of Maynila and Tondo.[1] It was conquered after the Spanish conquest in 1569 by Miguel Lopez de Legaspi and his grandson Juan de Salcedo. according to chinese annals - To the Chinese, the people of Confederation of Madyaas were known as the Pisheya. This is a transliteration of the general geographical location of the Confederation of Madyaas, the Visayas islands. In 1612, the Chuan-chou gazeeter specifically reported that the Pisheya consistently made raids against Imperial commerce .

and as far as cebu folklore is concerned - you were founded by a sumatran prince, the iloggos (panay) on the other hand were from borneo. Genetic studies show that the closest genetic relatives of the ilonggos are the tausog of sulu and the borneans. you can make an obersavation of rural sugbuanons vs rural ilonggo (people of panay), sugbuanon tend to be dark skinned, we tend to be light skinned. that why the tausogs like to raid us for slave and wives before.

the most probable reason we're bisaya is were are bisaya or at least descended from bisaya: The Bisaya are an indigenous people of north-western and along the coast of Borneo, Malaysia, concentrated around the Beaufort district, Padas river in Sabah, Limbang river in northern Sarawak state. They also known as Malay or Islam among the Dusun, Murut or Rungus people. As early as thirteenth century Bisaya was the first community to accept Islam as their way of life. Nowadays, most Sabahan Bisaya are Muslim and Sarawakian Bisaya are Christians. But in some part of Sabahan Bisaya located at kampung Manunggang, there are some pagan Bisaya who belief in no God. The first Bisaya leader is known as Awang Alak Betatar or Muhammad Shah. They are distantly related to the Visayan of the Philippines, most of which are more related to Bahasa Malaysia than Philippine Visaya. Such similarities may be due to the standardizing effect and influence Bahasa Melayu had over not just the Borneon Bisaya but also all other ethnic languages spoken in Malaysia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisaya_%28Borneo%29. - brunei and their royal families are from the bisaya ethnic group and that would make us one ethnic group with manila (eept the kingdoms of sapa/namayan and tondo) and the sulu tausog who got intermarried with bruneians.

To summarize our ethic group is bisaya, and our language is hiligaynon which had three dialects which split into three different languages, the hinilawod or lowland language - is the business and trading dialect, the karay.a or upland dialect which is the common language and akeanon which came from the court dialect.

language commonalties with other philippine languages had less to do with ethnicity and had more to do with economics. Ilonggo/hinilawod - had more i common with tagalog and cebuano because it was the tradig language - when sri vijaya and madjapahit were strong - the trading language was bahasa so it became like bahasa, when chinese came, chinese got incorporated, when the spanish came it incorporated spanish. and since iloilo, cebu and manila were centers of trade - the language reflected the influences of the various people they traded with.

This post has been edited by datumarco: Feb 3 2011, 06:03 AM
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datumarco
post Feb 3 2011, 06:23 AM
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QUOTE (silangan @ Jan 4 2011, 04:34 PM) *
I always think Ilonggos generally look physically more south Luzonian than Visayan even with their Visayan language.


we're ethnically related to tagalog rather than cebuanos,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajahnate_of_Cebu :

Rajahante of Cebu was a classical Philippine state which used to exist on Cebu island prior to the arrival of the Spanish. It was founded by Sri Lumay or Rajamuda Lumaya, a minor prince of the Chola dynasty which occupied Sumatra. He was sent by the maharajah to establish a base for expeditionary forces but he rebelled and established his own independent Rajahnate.

Chola - is in India....

On the other hand:

The Kingdom of Seludong (Saludung), or Maynila, which after colonization became Manila, capital of the Philippines, was one of three major city-states that dominated the area around the upper portion of the Pasig River before the arrival of Spanish colonizers in the 16th century.

The early inhabitants of the present-day Manila engaged in trade relations with its Asian neighbors as well as with the Hindu empires of Java and Sumatra as confirmed by archaeological findings. The name of the settlement in Majapahit documents is recorded as Saludung. Trade ties between China became extensive by the 10th century, while contacts with Arabs reached its peak in the 12th century.[1]

During the reign of Sultan Bolkiah (14851521) the Kingdom of Brunei decided to break the Tondo's monopoly in the China trade by attacking Tondo and establishing the city-state of Seludong as a Bruneian satellite. This is narrated through Tausug and Malay royal histories, where the names Seludong, Saludong or Selurong are used to denote Manila prior to colonization.

also: tagalog - means taga "ilog", hiligaynon means "ilig" to flow - also to describe rivers flowing from the hinterland to the lowlands.

Manila was colonized by brunei (ethnic group bisaya)
Panay was colonized by borneans- ethnic group bisaya
Cebu was colonized by sumatrans

That's why they (sugbuanon) look different and we look the same as the tausug and the tagalog.
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datumarco
post Feb 3 2011, 06:33 AM
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QUOTE (Prau123 @ Jan 4 2011, 04:13 AM) *
As you mentioned, I don't think Ilonggo came from Cebuano mixing with Tagalog, although I don't want to necessarily rule that out. My thinking is that the Ilonggos were a later migration from the Butuan Kingdom, and established themselves in present day Iloilo driving the incumbent Aklanons (Akeanons) and Kinaray-a from the eastern lowland areas into the hilly and mountainous areas of western Panay. The Ilonggos likely did this in order to compete with the Cebuanos in maritime trade. The Cebuanos were one of the first groups to migrate from the Butuan kingdom, and settle in present day Cebu, and this probably happened organically as a result of the trade routes within the Visayas. This is just my theory, so please everyone don't get upset.

The Akeanons and Kinaray-a may have come from the Butuan kingdom also, but also possibly from a different source, perhaps directly from Borneo according to the 10 Datu Legend. It is of my opinion, that the Akeanons and the Kinaray-a are the Borneans settlers of the 10 Datu Legend, and not the Hiligaynons who arrived later. I base this on the following reasons:

1) The Ati-Atihan Festival likely originated in Aklan, and specifically in the town of Kalibo. It is the most traditional and conservative of the Ati-Atihan type of Festivals. The other festivals from the other Western Visayan provinces...

Dinagyang of Iloilo
Halaran of Capiz
Binirayan of Antique
MassKara of Bacolod
Biniray Festival of Romblon, Romblon

...gradually stem away from the original tradition of painting oneself with black soot, and dancing around like an Ati. The MassKara of Bacolod uses a lot of colorful paint and Venetian-like masks.

2) The Hiligaynons occupy the eastern lowlands of Panay which are good for farming and development, face east towards the other Visayan islands which is good for inter-island trade, and occupy present day Iloilo which is the best harbor in Panay Island since it is protected by Guimaras Island.

3) Hiligaynon is linguistically more related to Romblomanon of Romblon, Mabatenyo of Masbate, Waray-Waray of northern Leyte and all of Samar, and the other Bisakol languages of southern Bicol as compared to Akeanon and Kinaray-a. Why would this phenomenon happen?

4) We should consider different waves of Visayan migration other than Cebuanos, Hiligaynons, and Waray-Waray. The Bantoanon of Romblon province who speak the Asi language which is another Visayan language may have been the first wave of Visayan to reach Western Visayas, and in particular to Romblon province. Please see this Wikipedia article on the Asi language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asi_language

Here is an excerpt:



The Asi language is unrelated to the Western Visayan languages such as Akeanon, Kinaray-a, and Onhan and yet they border each other. The Asi language is also unrelated to Hiligaynon, Cebuano, and all the other Visayan languages. It is a Visayan language of its own. It is likely that the Bantoanon (Asi speakers) may have been to Panay and Romblon first, but the later coming Akeanon/Kinaray-a/Onhan speakers woud push them to the western peripheries of the Romblon islands. The Akeanon/Kinaray-a/Onhan speakers were in turn pushed to the western side of Panay island and Tablas island of Romblon province by the later coming Hiligaynons.

5) Jed Pensar, the author of the website article, concluded that Akeanons and Kinaray-a are pre-Visayan based upon his linguistic analysis under the assumption that Cebuano is the most pure form of Bisaya, and that all other Visayan people originate from them. This assumption can be right, or can be wrong. But let's assume it's right for now. Jed Pensar, through his linguistic analysis, was able to conclude that Ilonggo (Hiligaynon) and Waray-Waray are related to Cebuano because their root words are mostly Cebuano, but could not conclude that most of the root words of Akeanon and Kinaray-a are Cebuano, and therefore could not conclude that Akeanon and Kinaray-a are related to Cebuano or the Cebuano related languages such as Ilonggo and Waray-Waray. This might be a fair argument by Jed Pensar even if his original assumption that Cebuano is the most pure form of Visayan is wrong, and that his linguistic analysis was based upon that. But again, it could also be wrong, and I will let the linguistic community make this decision.

6) As mentioned from a previous post, Akeanons (and perhaps Kinaray-a as well, but I don't know too many Kinaray-a people unfortunately) seem to have a more traditionally conservative culture and slightly rigid family social structure. As the example I gave before, when the eldest child of one generation begets the eldest child of the next generation, that eldest child's siblings and cousins are suppose to patronize him or her. It would be preferable also if that eldest child was a boy. That child throughout much of his or her life will benefit from the adoration and support of his siblings and cousins, and not really doing anything to deserve it, except be born. I don't see this cultural phenomenon among Hiligaynons.

Another cultural trait is the tendency for Akeanons to be more group oriented versus individualistic oriented. For example, if a family wants to make an important decision such as buying or selling a house, or moving to a different city or province/state, they will usually wait for the decisions of the other relatives or friends within their "barcada" group, and they will often look at the "alpha-family" which is often the family of the eldest child of their generation. There is a funny saying "if one turns their head to the right, then everyone follows and turns their head to the right; and if one turns their head to the left, then everyone follows and turns their head to the left". But what if the one leading is wrong? Hiligaynons, in my opinion, are more individualistic and follow their own path. Again, this is just a generalization that I've observed.

Akeanons quickly form barcadas, join clubs and organization, are socio-politically competitive in a social situation. Loyalty is very much appreciated. Hierarchy and rankings are observed. They tend to solve their problem using political tools such as the formation of committees, organizations, and etc. Whereas, Hiligaynons will tend to solve problems using business tools, and at a more individualistic level.

Lastly, Akeanons are adventurous people, have an appreciation for nature, are culturally-minded, athletically built, and are slightly darker compared to Hiligaynons. They also know how to have fun in a very genuine way. Hiligaynons tend to stay at home, are more sophisticated in business and money matters, are imaginative and have an appreciation for imagination and creativity, and sometimes have defensive personalities. Of course these are generalizations with many exceptions, and the environment and their history may be a factor.




Jed Pensar's analysis and conclusion may be wrong, and I also believe that his assumptions are wrong that Cebuano is the most pure form of Visayan, and that all Visayan people derive from them. I just wanted to bring it out for everyone to look at and discuss. Hopefully one of these days, this problem will be resolved. Many of those Ilonggo speakers in Iloilo province are likely Kinaray-a people or have Kinaray-a ancestary, and in fact approximately half the geographical area of Iloilo province are Kinaray-a even though they speak Ilonggo. The same goes with Capiz, the western most town are actually Akeanon speakers and not Capiznon (which is very closely related to Ilonggo). I do think that Ilonggos and Kinaray-a/Akeanon speakers are related, but I just don't know how closely related they are.


If you want to see map of where the Asi language is spoken, please see below, it is the language in red found in the Romblon islands:


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filipinoy
post Feb 3 2011, 06:35 AM
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yeah if you look at it... panay is somewhere between mindoro (mostly tagalog) & cebu
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datumarco
post Feb 3 2011, 06:53 AM
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QUOTE (Prau123 @ Jan 4 2011, 09:09 PM) *
The only Tagalogs I've seen are from the Manila area, and assuming if they are pure Tagalog, then they do look somewhat Ilonggo, but still slightly different which should be expected. I always view Tagalogs being slightly taller and slightly darker. I think the Tagalog region is not homogenous. There may be different groups of people there that have adopted Tagalog as their language, but are not the actual "true Tagalog people" whatever that may mean. I don't even know what a Tagalog person is anymore since their origins are very unclear. The same goes with the Bicolanos.

I do notice a slight difference between Ilonggos and Cebuanos. They are about the same height, but Cebuanos are slightly darker. Cebuanos are less inhibited also which is something Cebuanos should be very proud of. They are a very proud group of people, and have strong personalities. I haven't been to Leyte or Samar to sample what Waray-Waray people look like in general. I've seen some Waray-Waray, but only a few.



ilonggo - folk stories - including the maragtas tells of the spread of the bornean setllers from panay to luzon (saouthern luzon up to taal.) http://kapitbisig.com/philippines/tagalog-...as.603?page=0,2, ive spoken with some waray from samar near borangon eater samar (near tip of bicol) and their words and language sound like karay.a...

again, migration between ethnic groups may not be the major influence int he development of language (if thats the case then akeanon and kray.a would have been elimintated by the cebuano related languages (if we assume that ilonggo is more related to cebuano than karay.a)... has anyone considered that trade may cause language shift (like creating pidgin or creole languages)?
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Prau123
post Feb 5 2011, 08:43 PM
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QUOTE (katipunan @ Feb 2 2011, 02:40 PM) *
The only ethnic group we today can be talking about is the filipino people. This thread is straight up idiotic it is obvious that people from mindanao look very identical to people from Luzon. And when it comes to cultural traditions the spaniards assimilated us for 333 years, that is why it is impossible to talk about ethnic groups when it comes to filipinos. Ifugaos and so on still got very different traditions from the rest so they can be called an ethnic group. By the way Jesus died 33 years old and Philippines was colonized for 333 years is that enough to prove the point that we are the chosen ones?


It's an open discussion. We're just having fun with it at the same time.

QUOTE (datumarco @ Feb 3 2011, 05:56 AM) *
i agree - its all pure conjecture on his part -
my mom is an ilonggo who speaks kinaray, my dad is from antique who speaks kiniray.a, if you want to know where hiligaynon, karay.a and akeanon came from - you can go to the sulod panay in the hinterlands and you can talk to them - their language is unintelligible from its three decendant languages.

akeanon, karay. a and ilonggo originated from the same mother tongue but drifted apart from each other.

common rules for changing from hinilawod to hiniray.a to akeanon,

in karay, dominant letter is R, in hinilawod its L (the chinses seldom have r sounds and in akeanon its AEAG

so in karay.a its "karaha" in hinilawod its "kalaha, in akeanon its "kaeaha"

reason: ilonggo originated from the trading language hinilawod, essentially ancient hiligaynon referred to the language of both upland and lowland. Hiligaynon is from the word "ilig" means to flow, the upland language is called hiniray.a or karay.a from word iraya "upland or going towards the mountains" while the ilonggo/hinilawod what we now refer as hiligaynon was the lowland language from the word "lawod". Akeanon developed seperately because according to folklore thier datus were a tyrannical bunch who lisped when they spoke. might have been a court language as well since ilonggo folklore (we dont care if you believe it or not) says that aklan is where the leaders of madyaas (our ancient confederation - which had no relationship with ancient cebu) ruled.

during the spanish era, the chines were segregated on districts called parian. The current hiligaynon developed in the parian district of molo as a creole language/mixed language used by the spanish/chines mestizos. The spanish then utilzed the language as a lingua franca for literature, trade and business. It was special language of the landed class and gained popularity in enconomiendas and haciendas because it was the language of the "principalia", take a look of the map of panay and notice that hiligaynon is confined to iloilo city, the northern part (which include the sugarcane haciendas, up to parts of capi, also take not that kara.y is still the dominant language at home and once you go out of iloilo city it becomes karay.a country. on the other hand, the early 1900 and late 1800's saw the emigration of ilonggos (antiquenos, akeanon, capizenos and ilonggos - that's our ethnic group - akeanon, karay,a would refer to our language and not our ethnic group) to negros due to the economic collapse brought about by the demise of the textile industry (the spinning jenny of the industrial revolution made the textile industry of panay obsolete). So the lacson of antique and iloilo, the lopezes, the javellanas, the torres and anyone in panay who had cash bought lands and started their cash crops/haciendas in negros (you can trace all of them back here in panay if you did some research) - most of these are karay.a (the common tao) - they kept calling these people sakada- that would mean that language is not equal to or reflective of ethnicity. these common tao started emulating their bosses and started speaking in "sina " which is what we now call as hiligaynon. Thus a creole/specialized trading language became a major language. - the commonality between cebuano and hiligaynon ilonggo is not because you - cebuanos colonized us - the similarity is because we have very big chinese populations which changed our languages.

On the other hand kara.a differs from town to town in PANAY, the major differences are caused by geographcal separation. So most kara.a speakers can be grouped in one area or town with each are having a distinct accent/dialect. - with these dialects being mutuallly understandable to each other. There is a degree of "karay.a ness" being retained and imparted in town which may sound to observers as ilonggo. You can distingush this by listening to the intonation and accent, even though the words are hinilawod.

The least affected by the spread of hinilawod is the province of antique, which was because of its geographical isolation (separated by mountain ranges from the rest of panay) and its politcial segragation during the spanish era. It was closed by spanish authorities for at least a 100 years.

karay.a music is making acomeback - and I'v never heard anyone in Iloilo complaining they didnt understand it. The music is vey popular and can be heard anywhere there's an ilonggo - be they hinilawod or karay.a speaker.

on the subject of bisaya - i belive that as late as the 1950's the cebuanos didnt associate themselves with the word "bisaya" in fact - they always insisted that they are to be called "sugbuanon". historically, the word bisaya did not refer to cebu but to the islands and people of panay, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation_of_Madyaas: The Confederation of Madya-as was a pre-Hispanic Philippine state within the Visayas island region. It was established in the 13th century by rebel datus (chiefs), led by Datu Puti, who had fled from Rajah Makatunao of Borneo. The semi-democratic confederation reached its peak during the 15th century under the leadership Datu Padojinog when it warred against the Chinese Empire, the Rajahnate of Butuan, and the sultanates of Sulu and Maguindanao. It was also feared by the people of the Kingdom of Maynila and Tondo.[1] It was conquered after the Spanish conquest in 1569 by Miguel Lopez de Legaspi and his grandson Juan de Salcedo. according to chinese annals - To the Chinese, the people of Confederation of Madyaas were known as the Pisheya. This is a transliteration of the general geographical location of the Confederation of Madyaas, the Visayas islands. In 1612, the Chuan-chou gazeeter specifically reported that the Pisheya consistently made raids against Imperial commerce .

and as far as cebu folklore is concerned - you were founded by a sumatran prince, the iloggos (panay) on the other hand were from borneo. Genetic studies show that the closest genetic relatives of the ilonggos are the tausog of sulu and the borneans. you can make an obersavation of rural sugbuanons vs rural ilonggo (people of panay), sugbuanon tend to be dark skinned, we tend to be light skinned. that why the tausogs like to raid us for slave and wives before.

the most probable reason we're bisaya is were are bisaya or at least descended from bisaya: The Bisaya are an indigenous people of north-western and along the coast of Borneo, Malaysia, concentrated around the Beaufort district, Padas river in Sabah, Limbang river in northern Sarawak state. They also known as Malay or Islam among the Dusun, Murut or Rungus people. As early as thirteenth century Bisaya was the first community to accept Islam as their way of life. Nowadays, most Sabahan Bisaya are Muslim and Sarawakian Bisaya are Christians. But in some part of Sabahan Bisaya located at kampung Manunggang, there are some pagan Bisaya who belief in no God. The first Bisaya leader is known as Awang Alak Betatar or Muhammad Shah. They are distantly related to the Visayan of the Philippines, most of which are more related to Bahasa Malaysia than Philippine Visaya. Such similarities may be due to the standardizing effect and influence Bahasa Melayu had over not just the Borneon Bisaya but also all other ethnic languages spoken in Malaysia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisaya_%28Borneo%29. - brunei and their royal families are from the bisaya ethnic group and that would make us one ethnic group with manila (eept the kingdoms of sapa/namayan and tondo) and the sulu tausog who got intermarried with bruneians.

To summarize our ethic group is bisaya, and our language is hiligaynon which had three dialects which split into three different languages, the hinilawod or lowland language - is the business and trading dialect, the karay.a or upland dialect which is the common language and akeanon which came from the court dialect.

language commonalties with other philippine languages had less to do with ethnicity and had more to do with economics. Ilonggo/hinilawod - had more i common with tagalog and cebuano because it was the tradig language - when sri vijaya and madjapahit were strong - the trading language was bahasa so it became like bahasa, when chinese came, chinese got incorporated, when the spanish came it incorporated spanish. and since iloilo, cebu and manila were centers of trade - the language reflected the influences of the various people they traded with.





QUOTE (datumarco @ Feb 3 2011, 06:23 AM) *
we're ethnically related to tagalog rather than cebuanos,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajahnate_of_Cebu :

Rajahante of Cebu was a classical Philippine state which used to exist on Cebu island prior to the arrival of the Spanish. It was founded by Sri Lumay or Rajamuda Lumaya, a minor prince of the Chola dynasty which occupied Sumatra. He was sent by the maharajah to establish a base for expeditionary forces but he rebelled and established his own independent Rajahnate.

Chola - is in India....

On the other hand:

The Kingdom of Seludong (Saludung), or Maynila, which after colonization became Manila, capital of the Philippines, was one of three major city-states that dominated the area around the upper portion of the Pasig River before the arrival of Spanish colonizers in the 16th century.

The early inhabitants of the present-day Manila engaged in trade relations with its Asian neighbors as well as with the Hindu empires of Java and Sumatra as confirmed by archaeological findings. The name of the settlement in Majapahit documents is recorded as Saludung. Trade ties between China became extensive by the 10th century, while contacts with Arabs reached its peak in the 12th century.[1]

During the reign of Sultan Bolkiah (14851521) the Kingdom of Brunei decided to break the Tondo's monopoly in the China trade by attacking Tondo and establishing the city-state of Seludong as a Bruneian satellite. This is narrated through Tausug and Malay royal histories, where the names Seludong, Saludong or Selurong are used to denote Manila prior to colonization.

also: tagalog - means taga "ilog", hiligaynon means "ilig" to flow - also to describe rivers flowing from the hinterland to the lowlands.

Manila was colonized by brunei (ethnic group bisaya)
Panay was colonized by borneans- ethnic group bisaya
Cebu was colonized by sumatrans

That's why they (sugbuanon) look different and we look the same as the tausug and the tagalog
.


Thanks datumarco for that very long and informative post. I've highlighted a lot of the key points, and summarized them:

According to what you wrote, today's Hiligaynon (including Capiznon) (also originally known as Hinilawod), Kiniray-a (or Karay-a), and Akeanon are descendents of three closely related dialects in Panay during it's founding by the 10 Datus. Overtime they evolved into their separate languages today. Hiligaynon evolved to become a trading language, and may have been slightly influenced by the Chinese, and carried by the Spanish. Kiniray-a, being isolated by the mountains, was the least influeced by Hiligaynon. Akeanon was the court language of the 10 Datus of Panay.

Hiligaynon's relationship with the Tagalogs can be shown by this: "ilig" as in H-ilig-aynon, and Tagalog which was originally called Taga-ilog. "Ilig" means to flow as in a river flowing from the mountain hinterlands to the lowlands.

The lowlanders of Panay (Hiligaynon, Karay-a, and Akeanon) descend from Bisayans of Borneo as well as the Tagalogs who may have been founded by the people of Panay, and the Tausugs of the Sulu archipelago. The Cebuanos are from Sumatra, and this helps explain why they have a slightly darker complexion. But why then is Cebuano classified as Visayan language along with Hiligaynon, Kiniray-a, and Akeanon? Did the Cebuanos undergo a language shift adopting a Hiligaynon language? What language did the Cebuanos speak before this language shift? I'm assuming it would be a Sumatran language.

The term "Bisaya" was actually applied or synonymous to the people of Panay and not Cebuanos before the 1950's. I actually believe in this. Western Visayas was the more progressive section of the Visayas in the first half of the 20th. century and before. Iloilo was the major metropolitan of the Visayas and the South in general. Iloilo was known as the queen city of the South, where Manila was the king city of the Philippines.





QUOTE (filipinoy @ Feb 3 2011, 06:35 AM) *
yeah if you look at it... panay is somewhere between mindoro (mostly tagalog) & cebu


Yeah, I'm beginning to think that Ilonggo and Tagalog are closely related.


QUOTE (datumarco @ Feb 3 2011, 06:53 AM) *
ilonggo - folk stories - including the maragtas tells of the spread of the bornean setllers from panay to luzon (saouthern luzon up to taal.) http://kapitbisig.com/philippines/tagalog-...as.603?page=0,2, ive spoken with some waray from samar near borangon eater samar (near tip of bicol) and their words and language sound like karay.a...

again, migration between ethnic groups may not be the major influence int he development of language (if thats the case then akeanon and kray.a would have been elimintated by the cebuano related languages (if we assume that ilonggo is more related to cebuano than karay.a)... has anyone considered that trade may cause language shift (like creating pidgin or creole languages)?


I remember reading an internet article regarding David Zorc's theory, which I cannot find right now, that states that there is a linguistic gradient from Bicolano to Ilonggo:

Bicolano<-->Bisakol<-->Waray-Waray<-->Romblomanon<-->Capiznon<-->Ilonggo.

If we look at the Visayan language map from Wikipedia, you will notice that they are all classified as Central Visayan languages (colored green), except for Bicolano (uncolored):



Hiligaynon may have been taken up as a trading language (or perhaps even a migration language) from Iloilo and northward and eastwards to Capiz, Romblon, Masbate, Bicol, and to Leyte and Samar. This would explain the linguistic gradient theory that David Zorc is suggesting. Furthermore, the Camotes Islands near Cebu City (the Camotes Islands are actually part of Cebu province, and to the east of Cebu island) speak Porohanon which is classified as a Central Visayan language. Why would a language so near Cebu City, and on the eastern side of Cebu island speak a Central Visayan language especially given the fact that Cebu was always historically a powerful kingdom? My only explanation is that the Hiligaynons were a powerfully influential trading kingdom that dominated the Visayas prior to the coming of the Spanish. They controlled most of the sea lanes in the Visayas, or if not controlled, their languages were very influential and caused a language shift. The sea lanes between Leyte and Samar, between Masbate and Bicol, between Panay and Negroes, the Romblon areas, and a part of the sea lane between Cebu and Leyte all have Central Visayan influences. The Cebuanos held onto the sea lane between Negros and Cebu, and most of the sea lane between Cebu and Leyte/Bohol. I am just speculating here base upon the circumstantial evidence.

It is still not 100% clear the connections between Ilonggos and Tagalogs since David Zorc's linguistic gradient runs from Iloilo to Romblon to Masbate to Bicol. The Tagalogs could possibly still be a separate Visayan or Visayan-related tribe genetically and linguistically not closely related to the Ilonggos. David Zorc does not mention a linguistic gradient from Ilonggo to Tagalog, nor does he seem to relate it to the Central Visayan languages. But again this is linguistic arguments, and not genetic arguments. But it could very well be that the Ilonggos are related to Tagalogs. icon_smile.gif

EDIT: The Sulud or Suludnons are probably not Visayan, as they are likely related to the Lumads. They have a similar dance of the same name to a Lumad tribe in Mindanao. Their original language was probably not a Visayan language

QUOTE
The Sulud/Tumandok are known for their Binanog dance, which mimics the flight of the Philippine eagle, accompanied by an agung ensemble. Another dance of the same name is also performed by the Bukidnon Lumad of Mindanao, suggesting a cultural connection between the people of the Western Visayas and northern Mindanao in ancient times.[5][6

Source: http://www.ask.com/wiki/Suludnon

This post has been edited by Prau123: Feb 6 2011, 01:52 AM
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datumarco
post Feb 10 2011, 09:13 AM
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Thanks datumarco for that very long and informative post. I've highlighted a lot of the key points, and summarized them:

According to what you wrote, today's Hiligaynon (including Capiznon) (also originally known as Hinilawod), Kiniray-a (or Karay-a), and Akeanon are descendents of three closely related dialects in Panay during it's founding by the 10 Datus. Overtime they evolved into their separate languages today. Hiligaynon evolved to become a trading language, and may have been slightly influenced by the Chinese, and carried by the Spanish. Kiniray-a, being isolated by the mountains, was the least influeced by Hiligaynon. Akeanon was the court language of the 10 Datus of Panay.

Hiligaynon's relationship with the Tagalogs can be shown by this: "ilig" as in H-ilig-aynon, and Tagalog which was originally called Taga-ilog. "Ilig" means to flow as in a river flowing from the mountain hinterlands to the lowlands.

The lowlanders of Panay (Hiligaynon, Karay-a, and Akeanon) descend from Bisayans of Borneo as well as the Tagalogs who may have been founded by the people of Panay, and the Tausugs of the Sulu archipelago. The Cebuanos are from Sumatra, and this helps explain why they have a slightly darker complexion. But why then is Cebuano classified as Visayan language along with Hiligaynon, Kiniray-a, and Akeanon? Did the Cebuanos undergo a language shift adopting a Hiligaynon language? What language did the Cebuanos speak before this language shift? I'm assuming it would be a Sumatran language.

The term "Bisaya" was actually applied or synonymous to the people of Panay and not Cebuanos before the 1950's. I actually believe in this. Western Visayas was the more progressive section of the Visayas in the first half of the 20th. century and before. Iloilo was the major metropolitan of the Visayas and the South in general. Iloilo was known as the queen city of the South, where Manila was the king city of the Philippines.







Yeah, I'm beginning to think that Ilonggo and Tagalog are closely related.




I remember reading an internet article regarding David Zorc's theory, which I cannot find right now, that states that there is a linguistic gradient from Bicolano to Ilonggo:

Bicolano<-->Bisakol<-->Waray-Waray<-->Romblomanon<-->Capiznon<-->Ilonggo.

If we look at the Visayan language map from Wikipedia, you will notice that they are all classified as Central Visayan languages (colored green), except for Bicolano (uncolored):



Hiligaynon may have been taken up as a trading language (or perhaps even a migration language) from Iloilo and northward and eastwards to Capiz, Romblon, Masbate, Bicol, and to Leyte and Samar. This would explain the linguistic gradient theory that David Zorc is suggesting. Furthermore, the Camotes Islands near Cebu City (the Camotes Islands are actually part of Cebu province, and to the east of Cebu island) speak Porohanon which is classified as a Central Visayan language. Why would a language so near Cebu City, and on the eastern side of Cebu island speak a Central Visayan language especially given the fact that Cebu was always historically a powerful kingdom? My only explanation is that the Hiligaynons were a powerfully influential trading kingdom that dominated the Visayas prior to the coming of the Spanish. They controlled most of the sea lanes in the Visayas, or if not controlled, their languages were very influential and caused a language shift. The sea lanes between Leyte and Samar, between Masbate and Bicol, between Panay and Negroes, the Romblon areas, and a part of the sea lane between Cebu and Leyte all have Central Visayan influences. The Cebuanos held onto the sea lane between Negros and Cebu, and most of the sea lane between Cebu and Leyte/Bohol. I am just speculating here base upon the circumstantial evidence.

It is still not 100% clear the connections between Ilonggos and Tagalogs since David Zorc's linguistic gradient runs from Iloilo to Romblon to Masbate to Bicol. The Tagalogs could possibly still be a separate Visayan or Visayan-related tribe genetically and linguistically not closely related to the Ilonggos. David Zorc does not mention a linguistic gradient from Ilonggo to Tagalog, nor does he seem to relate it to the Central Visayan languages. But again this is linguistic arguments, and not genetic arguments. But it could very well be that the Ilonggos are related to Tagalogs. icon_smile.gif

EDIT: The Sulud or Suludnons are probably not Visayan, as they are likely related to the Lumads. They have a similar dance of the same name to a Lumad tribe in Mindanao. Their original language was probably not a Visayan language


Source: http://www.ask.com/wiki/Suludnon
[/quote]

We've had a related discussion fro mthe other thread " where do tagalogs come from" http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=250589

chinese annals bore testament to the "pisheyas" control of the sea lanes. as a sri vijayan decendant - the confederation reflects both sri vijaya and madjapahit's socio political structure. Sri vijaya and madjapahit were confederation of city states led by a powerful or head city state. these were thallasocrasies whose power came from the control of trade and shipping. The confederation might have had control over most of the shores and lowlands but did not venture far inland. The oldesta nd most of the major of town in Panay are in the shores, whereas the hinterlands were occupied b the sulod panay and the ati. Even the ten datus were not interested in the hinterlands and when the sale of panay was done - the explicit agreement was that the malay would occupy the lowlands. hinilawod as a trading language would have gained wide acceptance and usage, whereas hiniray.a and akeanon would have been confined to the home islands or near islands. The case for akeanon provide us with a unique perspective into how the visayan languages could have evolved. akeanon and its less known variant "malaynon" which is spoken in the town of malay didnt spread out of aklan unlike the karay.a and hinilawod. this lack of dispersion brings us to question why this is so.? why was akeanon confined to aklan and why was malynon confined to malay? thinking of akeanon as a court language , and malaynon as caste language may provide us with an answer to these questions. akeanon and malaynon was not used outside of aklan and was not dispersed because its usage was tied to court and to politics. --

earlier in this thread somebody posted that family structures and social outlooks were different between the akeanon and the hiligaynons. someone describes the akeanon and karay.a as giving more importance to the firstborn, giving bigger emphasis on friendships and peer relationships, whereas the hilagaynon were more independent. - again these observation could actually reflect/ the court/trader/caste relationships. akeanon and to some extent the karay.a would definitely need to be peer centered and would need to value the first born - firstborns are valued because they represent continuity of the bloodlines/rulership. name one king/sultan/rajah or any monarchy who does not give more value to their first borns - heirs? peer centeredness would also be centered in a court setting where politics is always at play - it might actually be said that politics was the life of the court. people who make friends, keep them and advance their interest together with their peer groups would be poeple good with politics. on the other hand the hiligaynon being the trading class - needs to be independent and would need to rely less of family and peer relationships because they will be expected to travel to trade, friendships and peer groups are not so important in trade as it is in politics since most of these peer groups would become trade rivals when they grow up, the eldest wouldnt necessarily be valued because at the end of the day - the son or daugther whose good at trading is the successful one. success in trade is not hereditary. family ties and peer relationships can actually be set aside for practicality and or trade advantages.

thus the hypothesis that akeanon and hiligaynons and karay.a might actually be from different ethnic groups - with the hiligaynon being cebuano? can be and is most probably wrong.

- the difference in outlook and social/peer and family structures can be explained via differences in castes.
- the differences in language can also be explained by the differences in caste. the hiligaynon trading caste/ilonggo might have actually spread the bisaya trading language to cebu and the rest of the philippines, influencing the language of the people there except those in the hinterlands.
-the diversity of panay arose because of the social stratification that starts to occur when a society becomes civilized. one should take note that the ancient bisaya/hiligaynon were by the majority - hindu. and being hindu would have possesed strong and distinct social classes.
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Prau123
post Feb 11 2011, 02:03 AM
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QUOTE
We've had a related discussion fro mthe other thread " where do tagalogs come from" http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=250589

chinese annals bore testament to the "pisheyas" control of the sea lanes. as a sri vijayan decendant - the confederation reflects both sri vijaya and madjapahit's socio political structure. Sri vijaya and madjapahit were confederation of city states led by a powerful or head city state. these were thallasocrasies whose power came from the control of trade and shipping. The confederation might have had control over most of the shores and lowlands but did not venture far inland. The oldesta nd most of the major of town in Panay are in the shores, whereas the hinterlands were occupied b the sulod panay and the ati. Even the ten datus were not interested in the hinterlands and when the sale of panay was done - the explicit agreement was that the malay would occupy the lowlands. hinilawod as a trading language would have gained wide acceptance and usage, whereas hiniray.a and akeanon would have been confined to the home islands or near islands. The case for akeanon provide us with a unique perspective into how the visayan languages could have evolved. akeanon and its less known variant "malaynon" which is spoken in the town of malay didnt spread out of aklan unlike the karay.a and hinilawod. this lack of dispersion brings us to question why this is so.? why was akeanon confined to aklan and why was malynon confined to malay? thinking of akeanon as a court language , and malaynon as caste language may provide us with an answer to these questions. akeanon and malaynon was not used outside of aklan and was not dispersed because its usage was tied to court and to politics. --

earlier in this thread somebody posted that family structures and social outlooks were different between the akeanon and the hiligaynons. someone describes the akeanon and karay.a as giving more importance to the firstborn, giving bigger emphasis on friendships and peer relationships, whereas the hilagaynon were more independent. - again these observation could actually reflect/ the court/trader/caste relationships. akeanon and to some extent the karay.a would definitely need to be peer centered and would need to value the first born - firstborns are valued because they represent continuity of the bloodlines/rulership. name one king/sultan/rajah or any monarchy who does not give more value to their first borns - heirs? peer centeredness would also be centered in a court setting where politics is always at play - it might actually be said that politics was the life of the court. people who make friends, keep them and advance their interest together with their peer groups would be poeple good with politics. on the other hand the hiligaynon being the trading class - needs to be independent and would need to rely less of family and peer relationships because they will be expected to travel to trade, friendships and peer groups are not so important in trade as it is in politics since most of these peer groups would become trade rivals when they grow up, the eldest wouldnt necessarily be valued because at the end of the day - the son or daugther whose good at trading is the successful one. success in trade is not hereditary. family ties and peer relationships can actually be set aside for practicality and or trade advantages.

thus the hypothesis that akeanon and hiligaynons and karay.a might actually be from different ethnic groups - with the hiligaynon being cebuano? can be and is most probably wrong.

- the difference in outlook and social/peer and family structures can be explained via differences in castes.
- the differences in language can also be explained by the differences in caste. the hiligaynon trading caste/ilonggo might have actually spread the bisaya trading language to cebu and the rest of the philippines, influencing the language of the people there except those in the hinterlands.
-the diversity of panay arose because of the social stratification that starts to occur when a society becomes civilized. one should take note that the ancient bisaya/hiligaynon were by the majority - hindu. and being hindu would have possesed strong and distinct social classes.


I agree with the post. Lineage is an important thing among Aklanons. Protecting that main lineage is so important to them. But in this modern world such cultural notions are challenged. Today, one can be successful without the need of (family) peer association, although it has worked it's way back in modern society as evident among family oriented groups here in America who seem to do better than non-family oriented groups. I'm sure this is the same way with the Karay-a. Except the Karay-a seem to have expanded their languages further than the Aklanons. For example, they always refer to Onhan, Cuyonon, Caluyonon, and Ratagnon as Kinaray-a related languages, and not Akeanon related languages. Onhan is primarly spoken on Tablas island in Romblon province, but it is also spoken in parts of Aklan province especially in Boracay. I always wonder if this is just a trivial technicality that these languages (such as Onhan) could be associated with either Kinaray-a or Akeanon. The Akeanon group only includes Akeanon, Malaynon, and Ibajaynon. But Malaynon and Ibajaynon are considered more as dialects, and not as proper languages, and they are limited to Aklan province. The Karay-a may have been like the Hiligaynons, and were involved in seafaring trade which allowed their languages to go beyond the island of Panay and colonize (or through language shift) expand into the Romblon islands, southern Mindoro, the Cuyo islands, the Semirara islands, the Caluya islands, and now to northern Palawan (which is a recent modern expansion by the Cuyonons). Yeah, the Western Visayan languages are healthy today! By the way, if I remember correctly, the original inhabitants of the Cuyo islands were some kind of Lumad (or Negrito) group, so in this case, Kiniray-a expanded onto the Cuyo islands through language shift, unless there is heavy interbreeding between the Kiniray-a Visayans and those of the Cuyo Lumad natives.

Ilonggos and Capiznons focused more on trade especially sea trade. They migrated to the northern parts of the Visayas especially through the sea route between Panay, Masbate, Bicol, Leyte, and Samar. And then another sea route from Bicol (or Masbate/Leyte/Samar) to Camotes island to Cebu. Camotes island likely played the role of a stop-over island. And then another sea route from Panay to Romblon. Of course there's the route between Iloilio, Guimaras, and Negros Occidental.

This post has been edited by Prau123: Feb 11 2011, 02:05 AM
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datumarco
post Feb 11 2011, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (Prau123 @ Feb 11 2011, 02:03 AM) *
I agree with the post. Lineage is an important thing among Aklanons. Protecting that main lineage is so important to them. But in this modern world such cultural notions are challenged. Today, one can be successful without the need of (family) peer association, although it has worked it's way back in modern society as evident among family oriented groups here in America who seem to do better than non-family oriented groups. I'm sure this is the same way with the Karay-a. Except the Karay-a seem to have expanded their languages further than the Aklanons. For example, they always refer to Onhan, Cuyonon, Caluyonon, and Ratagnon as Kinaray-a related languages, and not Akeanon related languages. Onhan is primarly spoken on Tablas island in Romblon province, but it is also spoken in parts of Aklan province especially in Boracay. I always wonder if this is just a trivial technicality that these languages (such as Onhan) could be associated with either Kinaray-a or Akeanon. The Akeanon group only includes Akeanon, Malaynon, and Ibajaynon. But Malaynon and Ibajaynon are considered more as dialects, and not as proper languages, and they are limited to Aklan province. The Karay-a may have been like the Hiligaynons, and were involved in seafaring trade which allowed their languages to go beyond the island of Panay and colonize (or through language shift) expand into the Romblon islands, southern Mindoro, the Cuyo islands, the Semirara islands, the Caluya islands, and now to northern Palawan (which is a recent modern expansion by the Cuyonons). Yeah, the Western Visayan languages are healthy today! By the way, if I remember correctly, the original inhabitants of the Cuyo islands were some kind of Lumad (or Negrito) group, so in this case, Kiniray-a expanded onto the Cuyo islands through language shift, unless there is heavy interbreeding between the Kiniray-a Visayans and those of the Cuyo Lumad natives.

Ilonggos and Capiznons focused more on trade especially sea trade. They migrated to the northern parts of the Visayas especially through the sea route between Panay, Masbate, Bicol, Leyte, and Samar. And then another sea route from Bicol (or Masbate/Leyte/Samar) to Camotes island to Cebu. Camotes island likely played the role of a stop-over island. And then another sea route from Panay to Romblon. Of course there's the route between Iloilio, Guimaras, and Negros Occidental.


actually, there were just two languages, akeanon which was the court language and kinaray.a which was the common language. kiniray.a was also the trading language before spanish arrival. hinilawod or what is now modern hiligaynon was not a language back then, it was actually a specialized language used the the chinese meztizos, one could actually say it was the language of the docks, it was limited to the parian ditrict of iloilo. it would have been used when one traded and discarded when one went home. kiniray.a in iloilo used to look down on people speaking "sina" at home.. its like a traders jargon. we use it to talk to people outside and we use karay.a to talk to people inside our society. it hard to explain but i guess there are some societies which like to talk to outsiders using a different language. cuyunin was influenced by karay.a not because the karay.a traded with them but bucause cuyo was a fishing port, nobody traded there and nobody would use ilonggo there, people who go there were fishermen. ahehehe. we karay.a traded we used ilonggo, when we fished or did anything other than trade we still used karay.a. ahehe. and when the spanish came we talked to them in ilonggo - why should we teach them karay.a since they were outsiders... they used the ilonggo language as a medium of instruction etc etc and so ilonggo gained wide acceptance and usage besides being a trading language. akeonon didnt spread coz nobody royal would speak it. royalty spoke akeanon, common people spoke kiniray.a and outsider were spoken to using "sina" ... my ancestore were snobs. ahehe..
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Prau123
post Feb 11 2011, 11:50 PM
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QUOTE (datumarco @ Feb 11 2011, 09:15 PM) *
actually, there were just two languages, akeanon which was the court language and kinaray.a which was the common language. kiniray.a was also the trading language before spanish arrival. hinilawod or what is now modern hiligaynon was not a language back then, it was actually a specialized language used the the chinese meztizos, one could actually say it was the language of the docks, it was limited to the parian ditrict of iloilo. it would have been used when one traded and discarded when one went home. kiniray.a in iloilo used to look down on people speaking "sina" at home.. its like a traders jargon. we use it to talk to people outside and we use karay.a to talk to people inside our society. it hard to explain but i guess there are some societies which like to talk to outsiders using a different language. cuyunin was influenced by karay.a not because the karay.a traded with them but bucause cuyo was a fishing port, nobody traded there and nobody would use ilonggo there, people who go there were fishermen. ahehehe. we karay.a traded we used ilonggo, when we fished or did anything other than trade we still used karay.a. ahehe. and when the spanish came we talked to them in ilonggo - why should we teach them karay.a since they were outsiders... they used the ilonggo language as a medium of instruction etc etc and so ilonggo gained wide acceptance and usage besides being a trading language. akeonon didnt spread coz nobody royal would speak it. royalty spoke akeanon, common people spoke kiniray.a and outsider were spoken to using "sina" ... my ancestore were snobs. ahehe..


That actually makes sense. Now I understand how the languages of Panay came to be today. Akeanon was the court language situated in Aklan, but because of its court status its spread was limited to Aklan. Whereas Kinaray-a was the language of everyone else in Panay outside of Aklan. This explains why Kinaray-a spread to the Cuyo islands, Semirara islands, Caluya islands, Tablas island in Romblon province, southern Mindoro, and Guimaras. Seafaring tradesmen, fishermen, and essentially people of all types especially commoners spread Kinaray-a which eventually evolved to form several child languages such as Cuyonon, Onhan, Caluyonon, and Ratagnon. Whereas Akeanon went nowhere except in Aklan, and partially into Capiz, with only a few child dialects being developed, but basically no child languages.

Hinilawod was developed from Kinaray-a in the parian district of Iloilo, and became today's Hiligaynon. It was developed because of the seafaring trade that came through Iloilo and perhaps influence by some of the Chinese people, and influenced and favored by the Spanish since it was the "trade language", the language of Iloilo's trade district, and it was the language that the Spanish had learned. The Kinaray-a speakers did not want to be too close to the Spanish perhaps, but vice versa, the Spanish did not probably want to be too close to the natives as well, and one way to do that is to speak a language that only an exclusive group can communicate in. So Hiligaynon essentially was developed and spread during Spanish colonial times, and is derived from Kinaray-a. Therefore, the Central Visayan languages such as Capiznon, Romblomanon, Masbatenyo, Waray-Waray, Porohanon, the Bisakol languages and perhaps even Bicolano to a certain extent all derive from Kinaray-a!!! This is also explains why the Eastern Visayas has very few linguistic diversity; Waray-Waray is spoken throughout Samar, and northeastern Leyte. Masbatenyo is spoken throughout Masbate, Ticao island, and the southern half of Burias island. The Bisakol languages cover southern Bicol. The Eastern Visayas only recently acquired its languages today all of which are derived from Kinaray-a.

Conclusion: The Central Visayan languages derive from the Western Visayan languages especially Kinaray-a.

The Ten Datu Legend states that Datu Puti moves on from Panay to found the Tagalogs in Taal, Batangas. The Tagalogs likely spoke Kinaray-a. But Tagalog is not classified as a Western Visayan language, nor is it classified as a Central Visayan language. Tagalog is classifed as Central Philippine, but not a Visayan language. Could it be that Kinaray-a in Batangas was influenced by the native languages that were already there, and perhaps a Northern Philippine language? Or was the Kinaray-a in the past different than the one today; that is, was Kinaray-a even a modern Visayan language? Could the language of the 10 Datus have been a proto-Visayan language (Proto-Kinaray-a), and this would explain why Tagalog, although related to the Visayan languages, may not contain some of the features found in Visayan languages. The same may be true for Bicolano. If you notice Tagalog has no child languages, but only child dialects (4 of them to be exact). Bicolano has no child languages, but has up to 12 child dialects. Therefore, Tagalog and Bicolano are recent languages compared to the ones that they derive from which are the proper Visayan languages, and in particular Kinaray-a or Proto-Kinaray-a. The Visayan languages likely influenced one another since there was much maritime trade amongst them, and this likely developed many of the features common among Visayan languages.

Conclusion: Tagalog ultimately is derived from Kinaray-a or Proto-Kinaray-a, and hence Tagalog's ancient connection with the Visayan languages.

This post has been edited by Prau123: Feb 12 2011, 11:44 AM
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