Newest Study Questioning/Debunking(?) the Out of Taiwan hypothesis, Ancient Voyaging and Polynesian Origins Options

[Prau123]

Africans with small eyes live on the desert plains. The sand reflects the sun in a similar way that snow does. It's a similar adaption. No. Cold adaption is not a South East Asian Adaption, but I bet where ever you find Ydna O3 in austronesian Areas you will find people with telltale signs of northern adaptions.

Straight hair is likely an adaptation from a cold environment, at least according to what I've been reading. Straight hair layers itself well over one another forming a thick coat which keeps heat from escaping. Whereas wooly hair such of the Sub-saharan Africans, or wavy hair of the Australoids, tend to allow heat to escape. Straight hair is also a nuisance in a warm climate, because sweat tends to run down the hair and onto the neck and body, whereas with wooly hair or curly hair, the sweat tends to evaporate. It's not totally official yet as to why straight hair was developed. There are various hypothesis out there. Some Berbers of North Africa do have straight hair, and North Africa is hot, and at times humid. It's unknown if the Berbers with straight hair are admixed with European tribes, or if North Africa was once a very cold place. I don't know if North Africa can be cold in the Winter and especially at night, so there could still be selective pressure for straight hair there.

As for slit eyes, it could be an adaptation to glaring sunlight reflected from ice or from sand as you mentioned, but there are many desert plains in North Africa, the Middle East, Western India, and Australia, and the people there do not have slit eyes. Some Berbers of North Africa do seem to have a slight slit eyes though.

I hope we can have a good discussion on this.

This post has been edited by Prau123: Mar 16 2011, 11:30 PM

[filipinoy]

^berbers are considered mostly caucasoid? same origins as europeans.. so it matters where they originally came from, depends how long they've lived in the desert since north africa wasnt always entirely a desert(straight hair developed 65k bp outside of africa) & how extreme the climate was..

Animals adapted for cold weather all have heavy fur, down or fat. Look at polar bears, musk ox, yaks, etc. ettc. Hair insulates the body.

not for humans who are already wearing those animals' fur... moisture on the human hair like the beard like i said freezes.. native americans from canada to brazil are also descendants of the similar ice age people & they too are usually not hairy also

This post has been edited by filipinoy: Mar 17 2011, 02:25 AM

[Prau123]

^berbers are considered mostly caucasoid? same origins as europeans.. so it matters where they originally came from, depends how long they've lived in the desert since north africa wasnt always entirely a desert(straight hair developed 65k bp outside of africa) & how extreme the climate was..


not for humans who are already wearing those animals' fur... moisture on the human hair like the beard like i said freezes.. native americans from canada to brazil are also descendants of the similar ice age people & they too are usually not hairy also

Okay Berbers may not be the best example. Straight hair is likely a cold climate adaptation, and the Berbers could be a relatively recent back-migration from Europe or north of the Caucusus, or at least mixed with groups from there, since many Middle Easterners actually have wooly or wavy hair.

I agree with you. Excessive facial hair and body hair is meant for a semi-cold climate, but not too cold, as it tends to freeze. As you mentioned, the Inuits, and even some of the Northern Europeans do not have much facial or body hair as compared to southern Europeans or Middle Easterners.

Just a little more tidbit information: Caucasoids have never really broken pass the Arctic line until a few centuries ago (correct me if I'm wrong). In fact, the Saami and the Finns, both of whom are Asian, arrived in the Arctic regions of Scandinavia/Fennoskandia before any Caucasoids. The Caucasoids could not simply survive in those areas, or areas where there were glaciers. The same with northern Russia, and its aboriginal Asian populations. The Inuits and the Dorset Culture, both of whom are Asian, would do the same thing in the Arctic regions of North America, whereas the Vikings struggled to survive in Arctic (and sub-Arctic) Greenland, and would eventually leave in one to two centuries. It seems that the Asian biological design for less hair was better suited for the Arctic climate. This begs the question: Is less hair an adaptation to an Arctic climate? Does that also mean that we Asians descend from a population from an Arctic climate, perhaps somewhere in Siberia? Or did Mongoloids/Proto-Mongoloids lose their hair prior to arriving to any Arctic climate? Did Proto-Mongoloids even have hair to begin with? We could also descend from an Australoid group that lost their hair.

This post has been edited by Prau123: Mar 18 2011, 02:27 AM

[apac45]

Hair does not freeze skin freezes. In fact, hair protects skin from freeziing aka frostbite. eskimos are not cold-adapted as they are quite melanated. you're using eskimos as proof but you haven't proved they're cold adapted! according to theory eskimos should be white as porcelain in order to get more vit. D. why do eskimos wear fur if hair freezes?????? they wear fur because fur is hair and it protects against cold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what you are seeing is frost building up on hair because of moisture like the breath on the beard or mustache. puleaze!

[apac45]

maybe you guys can go to alaska and tell everyone to shave their heads bald so they're brains won't freeze. let us know what kind of feedback you get

[filipinoy]

Hair does not freeze skin freezes. In fact, hair protects skin from freeziing aka frostbite. eskimos are not cold-adapted as they are quite melanated. you're using eskimos as proof but you haven't proved they're cold adapted! according to theory eskimos should be white as porcelain in order to get more vit. D. why do eskimos wear fur if hair freezes?????? they wear fur because fur is hair and it protects against cold!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what you are seeing is frost building up on hair because of moisture like the breath on the beard or mustache. puleaze!

calm down lol

its the moisture that clings on the hair that freezes

inuits/eskimos & siberians don't know how to adapt to the cold? is that a joke

many inuits & siberians don't even need that much vitamin D from the sun... since what they eat is already full & rich in vitamin D.. fish & other creatures


look at these hairy caucasians... just imagine how it is in the ice age & with powerful winds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ueaNKbHvTE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaYOVD8Q65k...etailpage#t=11s

[Prau123]

I may have been too quick to jump to the conclusion that hair is bad for a very cold climate, as many animals such as polar bears, Arctic foxes, and musk ox have a lot of hair, and they live in the Arctic regions. Inuits probably never evolved a great deal of hair by pure chance. Instead their bodies became more wider or rounder reducing their surface area to volume ratio keeping themselves warm. Hair is actually dead cells, so I don't know how much water content it has, if any, that can freeze. It's mostly made of the protein keratin, and I don't know how cold it would have to be to become so rigid that it would break or shatter. The moisture that sticks to hair may freeze, but I'm not sure if the hair will necessarily break. If we try to bend hair in all different directions at room temperature, it doesn't actually break or rip apart. Hair is amazingly unbreakable in that sense. Perhaps someone can elaborate on this.

Edit: I think the heat emanating from an animal's body helps to keep hair from freezing, or at the very least, keeps too much moisture from freezing on it. Moisture does collect on hair, and will freeze, which would be a burden on any animal or person even if the hair were not to break.

The women (and perhaps even the men) of the Dorset culture of Arctic North America, and the Sadlermiut people who were approximately genetically 50% Inuit and 50% Dorset culture grew their hair on their head long which helped keep them warm. Hair was so effective in keeping their heads warm, they did not even wear a hat or a hood or any headdress, and the Dorset culture, in particular, had large high collars which kept their necks warm, but relied on their long hair to keep their heads warm.

the carvings featured uniquely large hairstyles for women; and figures of both sexes wearing hoodless parkas with large, tall collars

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_culture



A Sadlermiut man paddling on an inflated walrus skin, 1830

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadlermiut


I should mention that the Dorset culture predates the arrival of the Inuits (Eskimos) in Arctic North America, and are often considered the first people to live there. They are not genetically related to each other, although both are considered Mongoloid.

This post has been edited by Prau123: Mar 22 2011, 12:07 AM

[trismegistos]

The mystery on how Southern Mongoloids evolved from the Australoids, I already speculated some probable factors earlier in this thread. 50,000 yrs was quite a long period for such developments. We don't know exactly how it happened but those 50,000 long years is enough for a Southern Mongoloid evolution from a Dravidian looking ancestor from South Asia. If Tropical Indonesia might be hot enough for you perhaps semi-tropical or semi-temperate Philippines which had the same latitude as IndoChina(land of the Tai-Kradai and Austro-Asiatics) during the Ice Age/Last Glacial Maximum could be a good cradle for such development. The Hanunuo Mangyan Mongoloid looking Australoid is a good evidence that Philippine isles is the One!

That subset of Southern Mongoloids from Philippine isles and Indonesia went through the Mainland SEA(splitting into two groups, the Daics/Tai-Kradai and Austro-Asiatics) and another subset through the Philippine isles going to Taiwan and other northern areas then meeting with the earlier subset in the Mainland. The Tai-Kradai and Austro Asiatics are much closer to Austronesian Indonesians(O2,O3) than they are to the Austronesian Taiwanese aborigenes(O1a).

Note:
Hanunuo Mangyans and the Manobos can be designated as Australoids in terms of genetics, Austronesians in linguistics but as Mongoloid Sundadonts anthropologically speaking as any Southern Viet or Khmer. Their genotype can be dated as splitting from the K ancestral haplotype 50,000 yrs ago.

I have said before Agriculture started in the South and people migrated northwards or outwards during the end of the Last Glacial period. Then back migrations with admixing of Northerners and Southerners. But the admixing is not that strong as to overempower the Southerners in terms of linguistics and genetics as well as cultural. They are basically Southerners with little Northern admixtures. I don't think there are Siberian genotypes among us Southeast Asians. But the Siberians do have Southern genotypes or genotypes which were daughter genotypes from the Southerners) plus some recent admixtures from the Uralics. Most Mongolians and Siberians came from agriculturist ancestors from the south but can't farm anymore because of harsh cold desert like conditions.

Chu et al and Su et all(Y chromosomal) as well as the SNP studies all pointed Southern Origins in Southeast Asia of all East Asians. Hmong-Mien and Sino-tibetans all came from Southeast Asia. K haplogroup subdivisions occured in highest diversity in SEA. Hmong Mien and Sino-Tibetans didn't came out of nowhere from the North during the last Ice age. They all came from the South specifically 10kya during the rising sea levels near the end of the last Ice age. Trans migrations in Northern areas were difficult during the last Ice age as proven by both studies done by Chue et al and Su et al.

Well, languages were born as people migrate northwards or outwards and separate from the main group as founders. And as migrations spread outwards and daughter language groups develops on its own, that when comparing daughter language groups from the north and south, they are almost completely different from each other.

The Japanese language can be grouped together with the Austro-Asiatic. Sino-Tibetan can be an off shoot of proto Hmong Mien. proto-Hmong Mien can be an offshoot of proto Tai-kradai or proto-Austro-Asiatic. Tai kradai and Austroa Asiatic can be both offshoots of proto-Austronesian or the Sino-Austronesians.

The fact still remains that more and more newer genetic studies both maternal mitochondrial and paternal Y chromosomal even SNP studies are all pointing that Mongoloids, both Southern and Northern, came came from SEA.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Mar 23 2011, 03:00 AM

[apac45]

thankss for showing a reasonable mind prau123. eskimos have not lived that long in cold areas. adaptation if it happens can take a very long time. are african americans living in northeast us cold-adapted after living there for centuries. no! eskimos are melanated people many are brown-skinned and nearly all have dark eeyes and hair. most arctic animals have white hair and light eyes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[filipinoy]

^if your diet is already full of vitamin D... your skin doesn't need to adjust to get vitamin D from the sun


why compare humans to other animals.. like polar bears.. humans only adjust physically if they can't adjust mentally(find ways like making fire, wear animal furs, build shelter.. etc) ... that's why all humans are still all very related despite being separated & being in different environments.. in contrast with other animals

i don't see anyone comparing SEAsian aborigenes to tigers & elephants

This post has been edited by filipinoy: Mar 24 2011, 01:33 PM

[maharlikangpilip...]

I don't know if this is of any help to your discussions

http://www.physorg.com/news130761648.html
http://www.ukm.my/news/index.php/en/typogr...questioned.html

[trismegistos]

Is less hair an adaptation to an Arctic climate? Does that also mean that we Asians descend from a population from an Arctic climate, perhaps somewhere in Siberia? Or did Mongoloids/Proto-Mongoloids lose their hair prior to arriving to any Arctic climate? Did Proto-Mongoloids even have hair to begin with? We could also descend from an Australoid group that lost their hair.

More likely on the latter from the Australoid looking ancestors bearing the Y chromosomal K haplogroup which probably had lighter skin and lesser hair. Or even earlier from our Out of African ancestors. The oldest tribe, the San people, are Capoid people with lesser hair, high cheekbone, epicanthic eye folds just like the Mongoloids' and more lighter skin exhibiting NEOTENY. They are the nearest to the Ychromosomal ADAM.

Quoting Xigon

-San people of Kalahari. The supposedly "oldest" tribe in the world. Lots of them have high cheekbones and eyes like East Asians. I wouldn't be surprised if we descended from them
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybji0axp6s0
@2:11
The author said, "Everything predicted in their blood seems to be written in their faces. It's like looking at a composite model of every face from around the world. The eye-shape of East Asians, the high cheekbones of Mongolians, the mid-brown skin that could turn darker or lighter."

I'd say they look surprisingly Asian, especially the person @2:43. The main difference is their skin tone.

They have the oldest Y chromosomal haplogroup A and B.

In the 1990s, genomic studies of different peoples around the world found that the Y chromosome of Khoisan men (using samples drawn from several San tribes) share certain patterns of polymorphisms that are distinct from the genomes of all other populations.[9] As the Y chromosome is highly conserved from generation to generation, this type of DNA testing is used by geneticists to determine when different subgroups separated from one another and hence their last common ancestry. The authors of these studies suggested that the Khoisan may have been one of the first populations to differentiate from the most recent common paternal ancestor of all extant humans, the so-called Y-chromosomal Adam by patrilineal descent, estimated to have lived 60,000 to 90,000 years ago.[10] The authors also note that their results should be interpreted as only finding that the Khoisan "preserve ancient lineages", and not that they "stopped evolving" or are an "ancient group", since subsequent changes in their population are in parallel and similar to those of all other human populations.[9]

Various Y-chromosome studies [11][12][13] since confirmed that the Khoisan (or Khoe-San) carry some of the most divergent (oldest) Y-chromosome haplogroups. These haplogroups are specific sub-groups of haplogroups A and B, the two earliest branches on the human Y-chromosome tree.

Physically the Khoisan, with their short frames (149–163 cm/4'9-5'4;), copper brown skin, tightly coiled "peppercorn" hair, high cheekbones, and epicanthic eye folds are quite distinct from the darker-skinned peoples who constitute the majority of Africa's population, though both population are usually dolichocephalic (Huxley, 1870). They have moderately long legs and longer abdominal muscles, traits that sharply distinguish them from surrounding Pygmy and Bantu populations having muscles with short bellies and long tendons (Coon 1965). In past ethnography, the Khoisan have been referred to as the Capoid race because they can be visually distinguished from the Congoid Africans of Bantu origin.[18]

... Ashley Montagu further noted that Bushmen have the following neotenous traits relative to Caucasoids: light skin pigment, less hairy, round-headed, bulging forehead, small cranial sinuses, flat roof of the nose, small face, small mastoid processes, wide eye separation, median eye fold, short stature and horizontal penis.[37]

As for their curly hair becoming straight later on as our OOA(Out of Africa) ancestors went northwards and east wards finding themselves in a cooler climate during the Last Glacial Maximum evolved from the ancestors of the archaic Haplogroup A and B, being the earliest to differentiate from the Y chromosomal Adam, over a long span from 150,000, going to South Asia and Southeast Asia becoming the Australoids bearing the archaic haplogroup that is ancestral to almost all Eurasians, the Haplogroup K, which branched into the Asian O haplogroup and the South Asian and European R haplogroup 50,000 to 10,000 years ago.

Northern Philippines for e.g. could have a decidous temperate climate especially in the mountainous region of the Cordilleras back then during the last Ice Age and our ancestors from Africa in transit had reached the Middle East before reaching South Asia below the Genetic barrier, the Great Himalayas, those areas were even colder providing the Cold adaptation for a straighter hair and more lighter skin coloration.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Jul 1 2011, 01:39 PM