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Ancient Artifacts, Ancient Paintings & More
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post Mar 20 2011, 03:05 AM
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Taken from Lichsuvn.info

khiên này có trong sách Mỹ thuật việt Nam-TRANH CO VIET NAM (ANCIENT AND TRADITIONAL PAINTINGS OF VIETNAM), pages 68-69.
("Triumphal return of the military mandarin -- At the end of the 18th century (Doc Loi - Quynh - Nghe An)"
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14105&stc=1
Notice how different we dressed before 19th century.

khiên h́nh thuỗn dài có hoa văn rồng thời Lư
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14030&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14032&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14033&stc=1

ngoài ra c̣n có cái làm bằng mây, rất đẹp
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14102&stc=1

có cả khiên tṛn cũng cực tinh xảo, trưng bàyđấu giá bở nhà Southeby Newyork
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14076&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14075&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14074&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14073&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14072&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14076&stc=1

This post has been edited by thumbsUp: Jul 3 2011, 03:34 AM
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XigonCongchua
post Mar 21 2011, 02:09 AM
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Lord Nguyen decreed that "women dresses had to sewn together", speaking in Vietnamese, áo yếm and áo ngoài phải mai chặt với nhau, so the inner shirt doesn't show.

BTW don't you see that áo ngũ than and áo dài never revealed any button like qipao does? Also the "high slit" of aodai is also more similar to áo tứ thân than to qipao.

I feel that in Manchu dresses, they create a low slit at around the knee just to make walking easy, not to make the dress "flow".



The high slits of aodai (which it inherited from áo ngũ thân and áo tứ thân) are there to make the dress "flow".





This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 02:16 AM
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post Mar 21 2011, 02:16 AM
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QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 03:09 AM) *
Lord Nguyen decreed that "women dresses had to sewn together", speaking in Vietnamese, áo yếm and áo ngoài phải mai chặt với nhau, so the inner shirt doesn't show.


Which Nguyen Lord was that?

Here is something interesting.

We went from this:



To this:



To this:

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XigonCongchua
post Mar 21 2011, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 12:16 AM) *
Which Nguyen Lord was that?

Here is something interesting.

We went from this:


That's one of the "earlier" kings of the Nguyễn dynasty right?

That shows the Nguyễn didn't really change their clothes to "Qing clothes" because if they did, you wouldn't see that picture.

Look at the picture of King Ming Mạng, he still wore "Hanfu-like" clothes. And this was in the 1830s


Under Thiệu Trị's reign (1841-1847)


The last pictures you show were late Nguyễn dynasty, when "áo dài" had already been revolutionized into its modern form.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 02:48 AM
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post Mar 21 2011, 03:10 AM
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QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 03:46 AM) *
That's one of the "earlier" kings of the Nguyễn dynasty right?

That shows the Nguyễn didn't really change their clothes to "Qing clothes" because if they did, you wouldn't see that picture.

Look at the picture of King Ming Mạng, he still wore "Hanfu-like" clothes. And this was in the 1830s


Under Thiệu Trị's reign (1841-1847)


The last pictures you show were late Nguyễn dynasty, when "áo dài" had already been revolutionized into its modern form.


It's too coincidental to have the collar like that.

The picture of Minh Mang is similar to Qing dynasty clothing. Just because the clothing is loose doesn't mean
it's Hanfu. It's the collar area I'm focusing on.

The second picture is different I know. I seen that before but that clothing was reserved for Nho Si people only
everyone else had to change to the Qing influenced clothing which was altered to Vietnamese tastes.
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XigonCongchua
post Mar 21 2011, 03:19 AM
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QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 01:10 AM) *
It's too coincidental to have the collar like that.

The picture of Minh Mang is similar to Qing dynasty clothing. Just because the clothing is loose doesn't mean
it's Hanfu. It's the collar area I'm focusing on.

The second picture is different I know. I seen that before but that clothing was reserved for Nho Si people only
everyone else had to change to the Qing influenced clothing which was altered to Vietnamese tastes.

Of course the collar was an influence from the Manchu. But other aspects were derived from earlier clothes.

And do you know what clothes for Manchu kings looked like?



Notice the sleeves (as well as the collar maybe)

These Nguyen clothes are obviously closer to Hanfu



Compare those clothes to the one in Nguyễn Trăi portrait (from early Lê dynasty - 1400s)
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Posts in this topic
- thumbsUp   Ancient Artifacts   Mar 20 2011, 03:05 AM
- - thumbsUp   Trang phục thời Lư Trần nh...   Mar 20 2011, 03:15 AM
|- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 20 2011, 01:15 AM) ...   Mar 20 2011, 02:20 PM
- - thumbsUp   Ly Tran dynasty soldiers Le-Trinh Dynasties   Mar 20 2011, 03:31 AM
- - thumbsUp   Nguyen Dynasty paintings:   Mar 20 2011, 03:37 AM
- - thumbsUp   RE: Ancient Artifacts   Mar 20 2011, 03:39 AM
- - thumbsUp   RE: Ancient Artifacts   Mar 20 2011, 03:41 AM
- - thumbsUp   Cờ Tướng từ lâu đă ...   Mar 20 2011, 04:11 AM
- - LonelyKitty   Đang đợi có thằng năo ph...   Mar 20 2011, 04:21 AM
- - LonelyKitty   Is this Really Ly Tran Dynasty Clothing? This is ...   Mar 20 2011, 04:25 AM
- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 20 2011, 02:20...   Mar 20 2011, 02:38 PM
- - thumbsUp   Portrait of Nguyen Trai Portrait of Le Hoan (Le ...   Mar 20 2011, 03:28 PM
- - XigonCongchua   Reconstructed clothings from research Mạc D...   Mar 20 2011, 10:11 PM
|- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 20 2011, 08:11...   Mar 21 2011, 01:45 AM
- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 20 2011, 11:11...   Mar 21 2011, 12:03 AM
- - LonelyKitty   So pics is allowed, i have some nice colour pics t...   Mar 21 2011, 12:28 AM
- - thumbsUp   Same Ly Cong Uan drama series: Look at the peasan...   Mar 21 2011, 12:39 AM
- - XigonCongchua   Of course we were influenced by the Chinese. What ...   Mar 21 2011, 12:50 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 01:50...   Mar 21 2011, 01:12 AM
- - XigonCongchua   Peasant áo tứ thân People keep criticizing...   Mar 21 2011, 01:07 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 02:07...   Mar 21 2011, 01:18 AM
|- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 20 2011, 11:18 PM) ...   Mar 21 2011, 01:31 AM
- - XigonCongchua   ^ Yea I noticed the collar, but everything was acc...   Mar 21 2011, 01:15 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 02:15...   Mar 21 2011, 01:20 AM
- - DOUBLEMINT   vietnamese people in an ancient chinese painting.   Mar 21 2011, 01:18 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 02:18 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 01:24 AM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 01:24 AM) ...   Mar 21 2011, 01:30 AM
- - XigonCongchua   ^ Thanks for the contribution.   Mar 21 2011, 01:20 AM
- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 02:30 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 01:50 AM
- - XigonCongchua   They actually bear similarity to áo ngũ thân ...   Mar 21 2011, 01:54 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 02:54...   Mar 21 2011, 02:04 AM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 02:04 AM) ...   Mar 21 2011, 02:20 AM
|- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 12:20 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 02:33 AM
||- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 02:33...   Mar 21 2011, 02:43 AM
||- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 12:43 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 02:57 AM
|- - LonelyKitty   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 03:20 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 03:08 AM
- - hoang_1989   I like this thread. It is interesting to follow xi...   Mar 21 2011, 02:08 AM
- - XigonCongchua   Lord Nguyen decreed that "women dresses had t...   Mar 21 2011, 02:09 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 03:09...   Mar 21 2011, 02:16 AM
||- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 12:16 AM) ...   Mar 21 2011, 02:25 AM
||- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 12:16 AM) ...   Mar 21 2011, 02:46 AM
||- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 03:46...   Mar 21 2011, 03:10 AM
||- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 01:10 AM) ...   Mar 21 2011, 03:19 AM
||- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 04:19...   Mar 21 2011, 03:29 AM
||- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 01:29 AM) ...   Mar 21 2011, 03:42 AM
||- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 04:42...   Mar 21 2011, 03:51 AM
||- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE I guess that means we both agreed there was ...   Mar 21 2011, 04:26 AM
||- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 02:26 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 04:36 AM
||- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 04:36...   Mar 21 2011, 04:46 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 03:09...   Mar 21 2011, 02:22 AM
- - LonelyKitty   This is Quan Huyện Phủ: You see the 2 ...   Mar 21 2011, 03:00 AM
- - LonelyKitty   I mean the headdress in this pic, look much much d...   Mar 21 2011, 03:10 AM
- - XigonCongchua   The mandarin dresses of early Nguyễn dynasty...   Mar 21 2011, 03:13 AM
- - XigonCongchua   Pardon me but I would highly disagree if you call ...   Mar 21 2011, 04:11 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 04:11...   Mar 21 2011, 04:28 AM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 04:28 AM) ...   Mar 21 2011, 04:55 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 04:55 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 06:08 AM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Mar 21 2011, 06:08 AM) ...   Mar 21 2011, 06:31 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 07:31 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 12:20 PM
- - LonelyKitty   Yeah Chinese influence the world with their Collar...   Mar 21 2011, 04:56 AM
- - papen   Please verify this pic QUOTE This one's from...   Mar 21 2011, 04:57 AM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (papen @ Mar 21 2011, 04:57 AM) Ple...   Mar 21 2011, 05:02 AM
|- - LonelyKitty   QUOTE (papen @ Mar 21 2011, 04:57 AM) Ple...   Mar 21 2011, 05:09 AM
- - XigonCongchua   Hm...because Lord Nguyen decreed that people to se...   Mar 21 2011, 05:00 AM
- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 05:00...   Mar 21 2011, 05:09 AM
- - thumbsUp   Found this while searching Giao Chi in Han Tu: ...   Mar 21 2011, 05:25 AM
- - LonelyKitty   Sorry, but you are using wrong word, our leader be...   Mar 21 2011, 06:51 AM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (LonelyKitty @ Mar 21 2011, 06:51 A...   Mar 21 2011, 07:01 AM
|- - LonelyKitty   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 07:01 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 07:06 AM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (LonelyKitty @ Mar 21 2011, 07:06 A...   Mar 21 2011, 07:26 AM
|- - LonelyKitty   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 07:26 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 07:44 AM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (LonelyKitty @ Mar 21 2011, 07:44 A...   Mar 21 2011, 08:02 AM
|- - LonelyKitty   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 21 2011, 08:02 AM...   Mar 21 2011, 08:12 AM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE (LonelyKitty @ Mar 21 2011, 08:12 A...   Mar 21 2011, 08:25 AM
- - Foxever   There is alot traditional customs look similar. Ch...   Mar 21 2011, 11:01 AM
|- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (Foxever @ Mar 21 2011, 09:01 AM) T...   Mar 21 2011, 03:03 PM
- - SoCal   http://www.tudoart.com/ItemListA.aspx?ArtistID=NGT...   Mar 21 2011, 02:42 PM
- - XigonCongchua   Áo Mệnh Phụ is basically a shirt with ...   Mar 21 2011, 02:47 PM
|- - DOUBLEMINT   QUOTE Áo Mệnh Phụ is basically a shirt...   Mar 21 2011, 08:02 PM
- - thumbsUp   So right now we got a slightly clearer picture of ...   Mar 21 2011, 03:29 PM
- - XigonCongchua   double post   Mar 21 2011, 03:38 PM
|- - XigonCongchua   ^ People of different classes dress differently, n...   Mar 21 2011, 03:45 PM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 21 2011, 03:38...   Mar 21 2011, 03:50 PM
- - papen   I see. It's indeed Vietnamese clothes. I asked...   Mar 21 2011, 04:25 PM
- - XigonCongchua   Beizi might have some influence on it.   Mar 21 2011, 11:42 PM
- - thumbsUp   Who's this? Chân dung Trịnh Đ́nh K...   Mar 22 2011, 12:38 AM
- - XigonCongchua   Those Le-dynasty mandarin clothes are basically si...   Mar 22 2011, 12:41 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 22 2011, 12:41...   Mar 22 2011, 12:58 AM
- - XigonCongchua   Áo dài basically came from those robes. It's o...   Mar 22 2011, 01:13 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 22 2011, 01:13...   Mar 22 2011, 01:30 AM
- - XigonCongchua   There must be some point in history where people i...   Mar 22 2011, 01:33 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 22 2011, 01:33...   Mar 22 2011, 01:43 AM
- - XigonCongchua   It's a good thing though. Áo dài looks better ...   Mar 22 2011, 01:52 AM
|- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (XigonCongchua @ Mar 22 2011, 02:52...   Mar 22 2011, 01:59 AM
- - DOUBLEMINT   Are there any ancient paintings or photos about tr...   Mar 22 2011, 02:20 AM
|- - XigonCongchua   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 22 2011, 12:20 AM...   Mar 22 2011, 02:54 AM
- - XigonCongchua   Tight-fitting áo dài had come about in the early o...   Mar 22 2011, 02:21 AM
- - thumbsUp   QUOTE (DOUBLEMINT @ Mar 22 2011, 03:20 AM...   Mar 22 2011, 02:36 AM
- - XigonCongchua   Folk paintings Vietnamese female musicians - 18th...   Mar 22 2011, 03:16 AM
- - LonelyKitty   I love these costumes: Tien Le Dynasty Costume: ...   Mar 22 2011, 06:11 AM
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