Ancient Artifacts, Ancient Paintings & More Options

[thumbsUp]

Taken from Lichsuvn.info

khiên này có trong sách Mỹ thuật việt Nam-TRANH CO VIET NAM (ANCIENT AND TRADITIONAL PAINTINGS OF VIETNAM), pages 68-69.
("Triumphal return of the military mandarin -- At the end of the 18th century (Doc Loi - Quynh - Nghe An)"
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14105&stc=1
Notice how different we dressed before 19th century.

khiên hình thuỗn dài có hoa văn rồng thời Lý
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14030&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14032&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14033&stc=1

ngoài ra còn có cái làm bằng mây, rất đẹp
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14102&stc=1

có cả khiên tròn cũng cực tinh xảo, trưng bàyđấu giá bở nhà Southeby Newyork
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14076&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14075&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14074&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14073&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14072&stc=1
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attachment.p...14076&stc=1

This post has been edited by thumbsUp: Jul 3 2011, 03:34 AM

[XigonCongchua]

Lord Nguyen decreed that "women dresses had to sewn together", speaking in Vietnamese, áo yếm and áo ngoài phải mai chặt với nhau, so the inner shirt doesn't show.

BTW don't you see that áo ngũ than and áo dài never revealed any button like qipao does? Also the "high slit" of aodai is also more similar to áo tứ thân than to qipao.

I feel that in Manchu dresses, they create a low slit at around the knee just to make walking easy, not to make the dress "flow".



The high slits of aodai (which it inherited from áo ngũ thân and áo tứ thân) are there to make the dress "flow".





This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 02:16 AM

[thumbsUp]

Lord Nguyen decreed that "women dresses had to sewn together", speaking in Vietnamese, áo yếm and áo ngoài phải mai chặt với nhau, so the inner shirt doesn't show.

Which Nguyen Lord was that?

Here is something interesting.

We went from this:



To this:



To this:

[XigonCongchua]

Which Nguyen Lord was that?

Here is something interesting.

We went from this:

That's one of the "earlier" kings of the Nguyễn dynasty right?

That shows the Nguyễn didn't really change their clothes to "Qing clothes" because if they did, you wouldn't see that picture.

Look at the picture of King Ming Mạng, he still wore "Hanfu-like" clothes. And this was in the 1830s


Under Thiệu Trị's reign (1841-1847)


The last pictures you show were late Nguyễn dynasty, when "áo dài" had already been revolutionized into its modern form.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 02:48 AM

[thumbsUp]

That's one of the "earlier" kings of the Nguyễn dynasty right?

That shows the Nguyễn didn't really change their clothes to "Qing clothes" because if they did, you wouldn't see that picture.

Look at the picture of King Ming Mạng, he still wore "Hanfu-like" clothes. And this was in the 1830s


Under Thiệu Trị's reign (1841-1847)


The last pictures you show were late Nguyễn dynasty, when "áo dài" had already been revolutionized into its modern form.

It's too coincidental to have the collar like that.

The picture of Minh Mang is similar to Qing dynasty clothing. Just because the clothing is loose doesn't mean
it's Hanfu. It's the collar area I'm focusing on.

The second picture is different I know. I seen that before but that clothing was reserved for Nho Si people only
everyone else had to change to the Qing influenced clothing which was altered to Vietnamese tastes.

[XigonCongchua]

It's too coincidental to have the collar like that.

The picture of Minh Mang is similar to Qing dynasty clothing. Just because the clothing is loose doesn't mean
it's Hanfu. It's the collar area I'm focusing on.

The second picture is different I know. I seen that before but that clothing was reserved for Nho Si people only
everyone else had to change to the Qing influenced clothing which was altered to Vietnamese tastes.

Of course the collar was an influence from the Manchu. But other aspects were derived from earlier clothes.

And do you know what clothes for Manchu kings looked like?



Notice the sleeves (as well as the collar maybe)

These Nguyen clothes are obviously closer to Hanfu



Compare those clothes to the one in Nguyễn Trãi portrait (from early Lê dynasty - 1400s)

[thumbsUp]

Of course the collar was an influence from the Manchu. But other aspects were derived from earlier clothes.

And do you know what clothes for Manchu kings looked like?



Notice the sleeves (as well as the collar maybe)

These Nguyen clothes are obviously closer to Hanfu



Compare those clothes to the one in Nguyễn Trãi portrait (from early Lê dynasty - 1400s)

Again the key here is the Collar.

The sleeves and everything can be loose or tight. But the collar change is significant in the difference.

Look at how these guys:

They have collars instead of like Hanfu or old Vietnamese clothing wehre there was no collar.

Pretty much it reveals they're wearing a ao dai style shirt with an overcoat on top which has a circle cut to reveal the
collar:


Now look at Ly dynasty clothing.


Similar but very different because this one shows that there is no collar but the outercoat makes the undershirt seems like there's a collar.
This one reveals that the clothing underneath is something like a hanfu:

[XigonCongchua]

Again the key here is the Collar.

The sleeves and everything can be loose or tight. But the collar change is significant in the difference.

Look at how these guys:

They have collars instead of like Hanfu or old Vietnamese clothing wehre there was no collar.

Pretty much it reveals they're wearing a ao dai style shirt with an overcoat on top which has a circle cut to reveal the
collar:


Now look at Ly dynasty clothing.

Of course they look similar to ao dai because aodai was derived from them (with a tint of Manchu influence)! Aodai didn't come from Qing clothes. They were derived from earlier Vietnamese clothes, which bear similarities to Hanfu.

Also you seem to forget that ancient clothes changed through time

^ Top row, 3rd from the left. That's basically áo dài with skirt.

And 2nd row, 3rd from the left. That's similar to áo mệnh phụ (royal áo dài) with skirt




Also what makes you think the key to aodai is the "collar"? Didn't you see that aodai's collar changed dramatically through time? Without the collar, it's still aodai. The key to aodai is the slit at waist-length. Without this slit, it's no longer aodai.

As I said, the collar was of course an influence from the Manchu.

Here are some "early aodai" they don't have the Manchu collar





Also let me clarify this, there are many types of "collar"
This type was an influence from Manchu


But this low collar is not necessarily from the Manchu


You see the same type of collar in many minorities of Vietnam

Ethnic Tày


Ethnic Thái


Their clothes weren't influenced by Manchu and they still have that type of collar.

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 04:03 AM

[thumbsUp]

Of course they look similar to ao dai! But aodai didn't come from Qing clothes. They were derived from earlier Vietnamese clothes, which bear similarities to Hanfu.

Also you seem to forget that ancient clothes changed through time

^ Top row, 3rd from the left. That's basically áo dài with skirt.

Also what makes you think the key to aodai is the "collar"? Didn't you see that aodai's collar changed dramatically through time? Without the collar, it's still aodai. The key to aodai is the slit at waist-length. Without this slit, it's no longer aodai.

As I said, the collar was of course an influence from the Manchu.

I guess that means we both agreed there was some influence from Manchu.

I'm not looking for the key to Ao Dai but the key to which clothing influenced the Ao Dai.
Manchu clothing, especially the chest up and collar is like Ao Dai, Han Fu is more like ancient Ao Tu Than.
What I was trying to say was, Ao Dai's collar was influenced by Manchu clothing because before then
our clothing was collarless like the Hanfu.

Nguyen dynasty clothing like the ones you posted above show a transition in the change from collarless to collar.
So scholars still wore hanfu styled clothing but the King and Queen and commoners etc had switched to a more
Manchu influenced (even though there was still Vietnamese characteristics like the slits).

[DOUBLEMINT]

I guess that means we both agreed there was some influence from Manchu.

I\'m not looking for the key to Ao Dai but the key to which clothing influenced the Ao Dai.
Manchu clothing, especially the chest up and collar is like Ao Dai, Han Fu is more like ancient Ao Tu Than.
What I was trying to say was, Ao Dai\'s collar was influenced by Manchu clothing because before then
our clothing was collarless like the Hanfu.

Nguyen dynasty clothing like the ones you posted above show a transition in the change from collarless to collar.
So scholars still wore hanfu styled clothing but the King and Queen and commoners etc had switched to a more
Manchu influenced (even though there was still Vietnamese characteristics like the slits).

I think both of you are wrong.The so called \"Mandarin collar\" is actually \"Hanfu\" influence.It started around Late Ming Dynasty among women .Manchurian clothing didnt have this type of collar till the late Qing,much later than Ao Dai.Also Ao Dai collar is much closer to the Ming style collar.What do you guys think?

Early Qing Qifu



Ming style collar







This post has been edited by DOUBLEMINT: Mar 21 2011, 04:37 AM