Ancient Artifacts, Ancient Paintings & More Options

[LonelyKitty]

Please verify this pic



I can't read all the characters in the details as It's in Japanese but the title is Japanese people 東京人

It begins with 東京八(?)古 So I guess it's Ancient Japan.
I can't find any characters links to An Nam (old Vietnam name) and the closest is Quảng Nam 廣南 ??

東京人 is Đông Kinh which is Hanoi or Thăng Long that day for your information.

Tokyo is Đông Kinh, But in that time Tokyo still be called Edo.

So that also mean they are Vietnamese.

These world was written in Kanji

This post has been edited by LonelyKitty: Mar 21 2011, 05:12 AM

[thumbsUp]

Hm...because Lord Nguyen decreed that people to sew/close the upper garment "from armpits down".

So before it was like that



The decree lord nguyen specifically said that you can't "xẻ mở" or "split open" the upper garment "from armpits down".


Plus the styles you show were not the only "áo tứ thân"

These are called "áo tứ thân" too and they're pretty similar to the áo ngũ thân I posted

I think those pics show a transition from "áo tứ thân" to "áo ngũ thân"

Yeah, I thought those Ao Tu Than was influenced by Ao Dai's collar
because old Ao Tu Than didn't have that collar and the chest was split open.

So maybe I mixed it a bit wrong and Ao Tu Than probably changed first and added that collar, then
Ao Dai added that collar too.

Please verify this pic

I can't read all the characters in the details as It's in Japanese but the title is Japanese people 東京人

It begins with 東京八(?)古 So I guess it's Ancient Japan.
I can't find any characters links to An Nam (old Vietnam name) and the closest is Quảng Nam 廣南 ??

Dong Kinh is also the old name of Hanoi. Hence french Tonkin.
Also in Chinese wikipedia:
http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-hant/%E6%BC%A2%E6%9C%8D
1714年日本出版的《世界人物圖卷》中的越南婦女及小孩。(1714 Japanese book "Figures in the world volume" in the Vietnamese women and children.)

It says 交趾.

Thanks for the confirmation.

This post has been edited by thumbsUp: Mar 21 2011, 05:53 AM

[thumbsUp]

Found this while searching Giao Chi in Han Tu:

享保１４年（１７２９）
交趾人（ベトナム北部）が象１頭将軍に献上した。
Mino go elephant highway road
Paul enjoyed 14 years (1729)
People Cochin (North Vietnam) was presented with an elephant head generals.




Thanks to Google translate too. LOL

Fr: http://akon.sakura.ne.jp/okosi/zou.html

Can anyone confirm this?

This post has been edited by thumbsUp: Mar 21 2011, 05:29 AM

[thumbsUp]

As I said,manchurians didnt have collar at first.

Ming clothing

Yeah.. Ming style seems similar to Ao Dai.

Is it possible for you to get a full body photo? One that shows
the slits on the shirt, and show whether or not pants or skirts were worn?

BTW, what exactly does this say?
越南
主條目：越服


1714年日本出版的《世界人物圖卷》中的越南婦女及小孩。
越南古稱交趾（中國稱作「安南」），西元968年，丁部領建立丁朝（大瞿越國），開始成為獨立的封建王朝，兩年後（970年）自稱皇帝。在服飾上，尤其是宮廷禮服，皇帝、大臣的朝服，幾乎就是中國漢族王朝宮廷禮服，皇帝、大臣朝服的翻版，試以越南末代皇帝保大所着之弁冠、兗服來看，與明朝宗藩服飾如出一轍，不過比之明朝皇帝，其造型顯得小一號而已。以漢族帝王的正式禮服——冕旒袞服為例，明代皇帝的冕旒是十二旒的，越南是六旒的。 滿清入主中原後的兩百多年間，與中國南疆山水相連的越南，仍然較完好的保存著明式衣冠，從十九世紀末二十世紀初法國殖民者在越南存留下來的許多珍貴照片和大量的歷史資料可以明確的反映出這一點，有一個典型的例子就是，1898年駐雲南府（今昆明）的法國領事方蘇雅（Auguste François，1857年8月20日—1935年7月4日）所着龍袍的照片，被許多人誤認為是中國皇帝的龍袍或者中國戲曲中的裝束，實際上，方蘇雅所著之服，乃是越南皇帝的朝服，從造型看，和明代宗藩、大臣的朝服一般無二。

I tried google translating but I couldn't understand it fully.

[DOUBLEMINT]

Yeah.. Ming style seems similar to Ao Dai.

Is it possible for you to get a full body photo? One that shows
the slits on the shirt, and show whether or not pants or skirts were worn?

BTW, what exactly does this say?
越南
主條目：越服


1714年日本出版的《世界人物圖卷》中的越南婦女及小孩。
越南古稱交趾（中國稱作「安南」），西元968年，丁部領建立丁朝（大瞿越國），開始成為獨立的封建王朝，兩年後（970年）自稱皇帝。在服飾上，尤其是宮廷禮服，皇帝、大臣的朝服，幾乎就是中國漢族王朝宮廷禮服，皇帝、大臣朝服的翻版，試以越南末代皇帝保大所着之弁冠、兗服來看，與明朝宗藩服飾如出一轍，不過比之明朝皇帝，其造型顯得小一號而已。以漢族帝王的正式禮服——冕旒袞服為例，明代皇帝的冕旒是十二旒的，越南是六旒的。 滿清入主中原後的兩百多年間，與中國南疆山水相連的越南，仍然較完好的保存著明式衣冠，從十九世紀末二十世紀初法國殖民者在越南存留下來的許多珍貴照片和大量的歷史資料可以明確的反映出這一點，有一個典型的例子就是，1898年駐雲南府（今昆明）的法國領事方蘇雅（Auguste François，1857年8月20日—1935年7月4日）所着龍袍的照片，被許多人誤認為是中國皇帝的龍袍或者中國戲曲中的裝束，實際上，方蘇雅所著之服，乃是越南皇帝的朝服，從造型看，和明代宗藩、大臣的朝服一般無二。

I tried google translating but I couldn't understand it fully.

What is this Ao Menh Phu jacket you guys keep talking about?Is it only worn by the upper-class?








1714年日本出版的《世界人物圖卷》中的越南婦女及小孩。
越南古稱交趾（中國稱作「安南」），西元968年，丁部領建立丁朝（大瞿越國），開始成為獨立的封建王朝，兩年後（970年）自稱皇帝。在服飾上，尤其是宮廷禮服，皇帝、大臣的朝服，幾乎就是中國漢族王朝宮廷禮服，皇帝、大臣朝服的翻版，試以越南末代皇帝保大所着之弁冠、兗服來看，與明朝宗藩服飾如出一轍，不過比之明朝皇帝，其造型顯得小一號而已。以漢族帝王的正式禮服——冕旒袞服為例，明代皇帝的冕旒是十二旒的，越南是六旒的。 滿清入主中原後的兩百多年間，與中國南疆山水相連的越南，仍然較完好的保存著明式衣冠，從十九世紀末二十世紀初法國殖民者在越南存留下來的許多珍貴照片和大量的歷史資料可以明確的反映出這一點，有一個典型的例子就是，1898年駐雲南府（今昆明）的法國領事方蘇雅（Auguste François，1857年8月20日—1935年7月4日）所着龍袍的照片，被許多人誤認為是中國皇帝的龍袍或者中國戲曲中的裝束，實際上，方蘇雅所著之服，乃是越南皇帝的朝服，從造型看，和明代宗藩、大臣的朝服一般無二。
=================================
Basically,it says that vietnam court dress well perseved the Ming court dress style,only smaller.Such as in this pic,do you see the things hanging on his hat?Its called "Liu".Vietnam king has 6 while chinese emperor has 12.


This post has been edited by DOUBLEMINT: Mar 21 2011, 06:39 AM

[LonelyKitty]

Sorry, but you are using wrong word, our leader being regard as Emperor "Thiên Phật Hoàng" by both Siam and Cambod and the rest of SEA, not king, please keep your respect as we keep ours and called your leader "Emperor".

[DOUBLEMINT]

Sorry, but you are using wrong word, our leader being regard as Emperor "Thiên Phật Hoàng" by both Siam and Cambod and the rest of SEA, not king, please keep your respect as we keep ours and called your leader "Emperor".

I used the word 'king' because I was talking about the system of "Liu"(旒).
天子之冕十二旒，诸侯九，上大夫七，下大夫五
Emperor---12
Vassal,Royal--9
Noble--7
Officers--5
Its very weird that vietnamese emperor only has 6.

[LonelyKitty]

I used the word 'king' because I was talking about the system of "Liu"(旒).
天子之冕十二旒,诸侯九,上大夫七,下大夫五
Emperor---12
Vassal,Royal--9
Noble--7
Officers--5
Its very weird that vietnamese emperor only has 6.

thank you, i think that because we Vietnamese got independence so we are the only one got six (i don't see six on the list)

[DOUBLEMINT]

thank you, i think that because we Vietnamese got independence so we are the only one got six (i don't see six on the list)

Six is 毳冕,its for 子男(baron) which ranks the lowest in the ancient five-lord system.Thats why I found it so weird that vietnamese emeperor only has 6.

[LonelyKitty]

Six is 毳冕,its for 子男(baron) which ranks the lowest in the ancient five-lord system.Thats why I found it so weird that vietnamese emeperor only has 6.

maybe Qing emperor love to tự sướng? I mean maybe he want to show that his power is double Vietnamese Emperor. 12/2=6

[DOUBLEMINT]

maybe Qing emperor love to tự sướng? I mean maybe he want to show that his power is double Vietnamese Emperor. 12/2=6

Maybe.

[LonelyKitty]

Maybe.

can't blame them, my emperor Minh Mang used to said to his servant that Qing emperor don't have the ability to make a poem. Hi hi sometimes i think that how deep our ancestors are, they are also funny, i wished they could be good friend.

[DOUBLEMINT]

can't blame them, my emperor Minh Mang used to said to his servant that Qing emperor don't have the ability to make a poem. Hi hi sometimes i think that how deep our ancestors are, they are also funny, i wished they could be good friend.

Actually Qianlong is the most productive poet in chinese history,he wrote 39340 peoms.None of them is any good though.

[Foxever]

There is alot traditional customs look similar. Cham people wear "ao dai" long time ago.

[thumbsUp]

What is this Ao Menh Phu jacket you guys keep talking about?Is it only worn by the upper-class?

Ao Menh Phu is just the outer jacket:




From your pictures I can see that the slits on the sides of the long shirts are different from the Ao Dai and Ao Menh Phu.

[SoCal]

http://www.tudoart.com/ItemListA.aspx?ArtistID=NGT




Battle at Bach Dang River

by Nguyen Gia Tri
lacquer
220 x 210 cm
Item No.: 453

[XigonCongchua]

Áo Mệnh Phụ is basically a shirt with a long flowing outer jacket that women in wealthy/elite families wore. It doesn't have any definite shape.

Mệnh Phụ = 命婦

Áo Mệnh Phụ obviously changed from dynasty to dynasty and the áo mệnh phụ that Vietnamese know today is from the Nguyen dynasty.

However, not any outer shirt can be called áo mệnh phụ. It has to be long, flowy, often with intricate embroideries, basically it has to signify something different from the common class.

These dresses wouldn't be called "áo mệnh phụ" because they're too short and quite "ordinary"






But this one can because it least it seems long and flowy to me


These are áo mệnh phụ of the Nguyen dynasty





Of course you can see the "modern áo dài" with Mandarin collar inside because these are designed recently

Young Queen Nam Phương (the last queen of Vietnam) in her Áo Mệnh Phụ (notice the collar inside is lower)


Queen Nam Phương in a dress without outter jacket


Áo Mệnh Phụ of Princess Mỹ Lương


Áo Mệnh Phụ of Hoàng Thái Hậu (King's mother)


Royal "áo dài" of princes




Royal áo dài of a queen

[XigonCongchua]

There is alot traditional customs look similar. Cham people wear "ao dai" long time ago.

Yes, lots of dresses look "superficially" similar. But the mechanisms behind them are different.

The Cham dress and some Indian dresses look superficially similar to áo dài but look at the mechanism of the Cham dress. It doesn't really have a defined front flap and a defined back flap. Neither does it have buttons on the right. So it's basically "one-piece". You don't split it open to put it on like in áo dài. I think you put it on like how you put modern Western shirts on.
Some Indian dress, similar to áo dài, no?


I also felt that similarity between Manchu dress and aodai was superficial. I grew up watching Chinese drama all the times and it never occurred to me that the Qing dresses were similar to áo dài until someone in the US pointed them out to me. Similarly, I never thought Indian dress was similar to áo dài until somebody in Indian chat said so.

P/S: this picture is obviously áo dài, it's not a Cham dress. The Cham girl is just wearing an áo dài.
http://farm3.anhso.net/upload/20110224/03/...2_6171646_n.jpg

And the dress in this picture is obviously influenced by áo dài. Look at the small front flaps at the bottom. That's a character of most áo tứ thân (which is carried on in some áo dài today). Cham dress doesn't have those two front flaps.
http://inrasara.com/wp-content/uploads/201.../Chemylan03.jpg

[thumbsUp]

So right now we got a slightly clearer picture of vietnamese clothing from the ly to late 1800s


Ly Tran dynasty clothing:



Mid 1600s



Early 1700s


Mid 1700s



Late 1700s


This post has been edited by thumbsUp: Mar 21 2011, 03:32 PM

[XigonCongchua]

double post

This post has been edited by XigonCongchua: Mar 21 2011, 11:47 PM