Unhappy campers take on 'Superman', Activists to lay siege to Li Ka-shing's HQ Options

[qwerty2010]

Mid-Night Sun, you're from the family of DEVELOPERS, thank you for clarifying! Now we know where your so-called FACTS come from. Of course you will argue to the DEATH from the DEVELOPERS' POV, which means that DEVELOPERS ARE NOT AT FAULT FOR THE FACT THAT HONG KONG *IS* THE MOST UNAFFORDABLE CITY IN THE WORLD.

Obviously you do not understand the MEANING of this RATING.

It isn't a Rating about the Most Expensive Housing in the World, it is a RATIO of Price vs. Income. Based on this Rating, a working Average HKer will have to work 30 years to pay off a 600 Sq Ft apt., not 11.4 years, because those 11.4 yrs EXCLUDES Food, Transport, Healthcare, Kids' expenses, etc., etc.!

Of course he can just rent, but it means spending 50%-60% of his income on RENT, leaving virtually NOTHING after food and transport.

Believe me, no one except Developers will say "This is a GOOD thing!"

I see perfectly decent, caring guys not even out of University just devastated and overwhelmed, every one of them every bit a HKer who deserves a decent life in the land they're born in, some of them with family suffering illnesses and barely making ends meet.

Sorry, I'm siding with the 99.99999% of HKers who believe that they are RIPPED OFF by BOTH Govt & Developers.

Ok, I'm done here. FOR REAL THIS TIME. Don't even bother to see a reply!

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 12 2011, 08:10 AM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

I think it's too simple to just blame developers about the cost of living in HK. Maybe the government could do more to regulate apartment costs but demand is still demand.

I do however, understand the frustration of living in a city like HK. Its painful seeing half or more of your salary go to just basic living even with a good job. Also, regarding jobs, while statistically it sounds good, the reality is quite different. I've seen many highly skilled, experienced and intelligent people have trouble finding jobs. Getting a job is not just grades. You'll find that out when you graduate.

I'm sorry but criticizing his friend with your statistics shows your inexperience, youth and maybe a little separation from real life responsibilities into adulthood. You should not attack his friend like that because you don't know his friend's personal situation.

its true i shouldnt attack the friend.

however those statistics are done ON university graduates. so its quite fine for me to make conclusions on graduates and their wages/job offers based on that.

oh, im very aware of the difficulty in getting a job. and getting 2 job offers after graduating is fantastic and definitely NOT the average here. in fact, most people i know are doing masters BECAUSE of job finding difficulty.

Mid-Night Sun, you're from the family of DEVELOPERS, thank you for clarifying! Now we know where your so-called FACTS come from. Of course you will argue to the DEATH from the DEVELOPERS' POV, which means that DEVELOPERS ARE NOT AT FAULT FOR THE FACT THAT HONG KONG *IS* THE MOST UNAFFORDABLE CITY IN THE WORLD.

Obviously you do not understand the MEANING of this RATING.

It isn't a Rating about the Most Expensive Housing in the World, it is a RATIO of Price vs. Income. Based on this Rating, a working Average HKer will have to work 30 years to pay off a 600 Sq Ft apt., not 11.4 years, because those 11.4 yrs EXCLUDES Food, Transport, Healthcare, Kids' expenses, etc., etc.!

Of course he can just rent, but it means spending 50%-60% of his income on RENT, leaving virtually NOTHING after food and transport.

Believe me, no one except Developers will say "This is a GOOD thing!"

I see perfectly decent, caring guys not even out of University just devastated and overwhelmed, every one of them every bit a HKer who deserves a decent life in the land they're born in, some of them with family suffering illnesses and barely making ends meet.

Sorry, I'm siding with the 99.99999% of HKers who believe that they are RIPPED OFF by BOTH Govt & Developers.

Ok, rich boy, I'm done here. I'm about to vomit.

LOL yeah go figure. my facts on development is from being a developer. way to go. your point?

most of that had NOTHING to do with what we have been debating. well i use debate loosely.

my FACTS are LAWS that are SET by the GOVERNMENT and real estate PROCEDURE. it is how things are DONE. it is the most BASIC aspect of real estate and you got it ALL INCORRECT.

THAT was the point.



for the love of god STOP SHOWING YOUR IGNORANCE. 50% is NORMAL for rent. even if i took Canada, avg income of 40,000-50,000 a year. say $3,500 monthly. 2 bedroom condo avg rent is around $1500 per month. that is with a only decent location. for property in downtown Toronto or on the subway line???


and a university GRAD no less????? this is too funny.

40% to 50% of your income isnt enough for your other needs? have you lost your mind? you think it is a unique HK phenomenon that the largest expense if you rent IS the RENT????


this isnt even talking about public housing, which is RENT GEARED TO INCOME. do i seriously have to explain even THAT to you?


yes, this is the third time you claim to leave and then just come back and say some more stupid things. you really think i care who you side with? you dont know ANYTHING



ps. i didnt even go into the kind of leases. yet ANOTHER entire WORLD of real estate that you know nothing about. is that rent utilities included? where is the location? how about comparables? you mention NONE of this and just fart out of your mouth that rent is 50%-60% of income.

"A survey conducted by the university among 3,504 graduates from September to March showed that their average gross salary rose 4.3 per cent from last year, to HK$17,336. If the relatively high salaries of medical and dentistry graduates were excluded, the average salary was HK$15,139, up 6 per cent from the year before."

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=261574




rents in HK

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menui...;s=idx_Business


actually forget my avg. estimates. no point. areas are different and to average all of them and pretend they are the same is foolish.

just compare a grads avg salary with rent for yourself.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 12 2011, 09:08 AM

[faydabakery]

I think this is turning more into a moral issue. Developers don't have any responsibility to keep prices of real estate down since they are businessmen and their main goal is to make money. Whether a developer decides to try to keep his prices low is probably up to each individual developer. If he decides to lower his prices for the good or the population, that's great. Is it his responsibility though? No. Personally, I would prefer more socially conscious developers (businessmen in general) but I don't know how realistic that is. In the end, I don't think there is really any right or wrong in this situation.

[Mid-Night_Sun]

I think this is turning more into a moral issue. Developers don't have any responsibility to keep prices of real estate down since they are businessmen and their main goal is to make money. Whether a developer decides to try to keep his prices low is probably up to each individual developer. If he decides to lower his prices for the good or the population, that's great. Is it his responsibility though? No. Personally, I would prefer more socially conscious developers (businessmen in general) but I don't know how realistic that is. In the end, I don't think there is really any right or wrong in this situation.

that is true. i already know developers are the boogeymen. to people and government. i dont care about that. people is obvious why.

for gov: most governments make their money off taxing US. and if you only knew how much we go at it with City Planners...or the sheer amount of REGULATIONS we are under.

and yeah, money IS the main factor. for a 30 unit condo, construction costs can be as much as TEN MILLION DOLLARS.

most of that BORROWED. if the developer doesnt sell for high enough, WE GET EATEN BY THE BANKS.


its the same reason for green tech. there is alot of new things out there. but its untested.

are YOU going to risk MILLIONS in construction to test out a new technology? course not. you do what is safe and reliable.


for quality, typically its geared towards the market you are in. the quality needs to be matched with location and people being able to afford it. its easy to point and say "those units SUCK". and not have ANY info that the surrounding area avg income CANT AFFORD nicer units.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 12 2011, 09:23 AM

[arcAngel]

I feel a bit shocked and at odd. Are there no other HKers on this forum other than Mid_Night_Sun? This topic should be of great concern to many young adverage HKers and yet non whatsoever are here expressing their views. Does this sense of quietness imply you guys are all content with HK flats? Sharing your personal views does not equate to HKers are going up against HKers. I mean you guys should speak your minds out!

This post has been edited by arcAngel: Apr 12 2011, 12:20 PM

[newties21]

What is going on in HK ??

I have read some articles about some big bosses controlling so much land and also some companies who specialize in investment / renting.

I believe such situation is unhealthy because gradually and incrementally what would happen is a slide to feudalism.

There would be 2 classes :

1. landless peasants
2. landlords

Now we see in modern world exactly the same thing is happening :

1. landless workers of all types (including white collar workers who must save very hard)
2. property bosses and landlords

If this situation continues and the lopsided imbalance is not addressed, there could be a revolution.
Why is the HK government not controlling the land and the housing situation.

The capitalists should not be allowed to channel their resources into bigger and bigger acquisition of land, because it is a public goods. If they do that, the average masses are getting pushed out. They will be suffering.
In essence, the capitalists are becoming modern day incarnation of feudal landlords who suck dry people's blood and enslave them.

HK housing situation seems very bad.
My cousins are still saving and still cannot purchase a home even though they are a working couple (married couple) in professional white collar jobs.
Also the sizes are extremely small.
It is really pitiful and I feel that in this kind of pitiful situation nobody should be allowed to seek profits and housing sector should be strictly regulated to prevent oligopoly.

This post has been edited by newties21: Apr 12 2011, 05:37 PM

[qwerty2010]

"A survey conducted by the university among 3,504 graduates from September to March showed that their average gross salary rose 4.3 per cent from last year, to HK$17,336. If the relatively high salaries of medical and dentistry graduates were excluded, the average salary was HK$15,139, up 6 per cent from the year before."

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=261574




rents in HK

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menui...;s=idx_Business


actually forget my avg. estimates. no point. areas are different and to average all of them and pretend they are the same is foolish.

just compare a grads avg salary with rent for yourself.

OMG, my dear boy, did you even LOOK at the LINK you posted about RENT??

rents in HK

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menui...;s=idx_Business

Take the LOWEST RENT in Hong Kong, Chai Wan, under Transaction Price/Rent Mass-Residential Flats - Hong Kong.

Chai Wan is very far from the Downtown area, it is at the end of the metro line.

It costs $15,000 a month to RENT and $4 million to buy. According to your own post, the avg. HK grad salary is also the SAME, $15,139. That's 100% of salary.

You mistook the first column for rent, that first column is for PRICE, which should be followed by three additional ZEROs.

Based on the same Link, University Grads can only afford housing in New Territories where it takes 45 minutes to commute to town, where rents hover around $8,000-$15,000, that's easily 50%-100% of a Univeristy grad's salary, what about the majority, taxi drivers and waitresses??

Let's divide the price of the Chai Wan flat, $4 million, by monthly salary of $15,000, then by 12. We get 22 years of paying off the debt at 100% salary, excluding interest and assuming that poor University Grad doesn't spend on food, healthcare, transport, etc., with salary remaining constant/rising to match inflation.

Ugh....get your facts straight first, or you're embarrassing yourself when you accuse others of getting their facts wrong.

newties, sorry to hear about your cousins. Be glad you're not born there. Yes, the Govt. treats the land like it's THEIR property, so HKers work all their lives just to get a roof over their heads.

I heard that Donald Tsang suggested to a lawyer-doctor couple who complained they can't afford to live in HK to move to the New Territories, maybe Shenzhen. Whaddaguy!

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 13 2011, 02:37 AM

[AndyH]

OMG, my dear boy, did you even LOOK at the LINK you posted about RENT??

rents in HK

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menui...;s=idx_Business

Take the LOWEST RENT in Hong Kong, Chai Wan. That is very far from the Downtown area.

It costs $15,000 a month to RENT. Your avg. HK grad salary is also the SAME, $15,139. That's 100% of salary.

You mistook the first column for rent, that first column is for PRICE, which should be followed by three additional ZEROs.

Imagine University Grads can only afford housing in New Territories, where rents hover around $8,000 to $15,000, that's easily 50%-80% of a Univeristy grad's salary, what about the majority, taxi drivers and waitresses??

Ugh....get your facts straight first, or you're embarrassing yourself when you accuse others of getting their facts wrong.

newties, sorry about your cousins, I heard that Donald Tsang suggested to a lawyer-doctor couple who complained they can't afford to live in HK to move to the New Territories, maybe Shenzhen. Whaddaguy!

If these facts are true, then it is truely deeply disturbing. I go to HK every 4-5 months or so and food etc. prices are very high compared to home, but I have never rented there.

Are many young people moving away to other parts of China?

This post has been edited by AndyH: Apr 13 2011, 02:11 AM

[qwerty2010]

If these facts are true, then it is truely deeply disturbing. I go to HK every 4-5 months or so and food etc. prices are very high compared to home, but I have never rented there.

Are many young people moving away to other parts of China?

I think they should, but China has a lot of environmental problems of its own, and the 1st tier cities aren't cheaper.

Sadly, I think most Hkers live 2-3 generations under one roof, double-decker beds, etc., pooling together salary to afford minimal living. Otherwise, there's not enough to pay for food and other living expenses, as you can see it is an expensive city. HK is a great city with a lot of energy and wonderful people, but they are being **SQUEEZED** till the last drop. Also, the rich HKers and Govt are pretty heartless people. This is why there's been a lot of protests and demonstrations. I think HK can be a much better city if they don't have to be obsessed with money and making ends meet.

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: Apr 13 2011, 02:39 AM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

Why is the HK government not controlling the land and the housing situation.

you do realize the gov. DOES control the land and housing right?

fact 1: a developer CANNOT build a SINGLE THING without APPROVAL from the city
fact 2: developers ALWAYS want to build MORE but are RESTRICTED by density, particularly outlined by zoning by laws and the overall Official Plan
fact 3: despite all this, developers go through A LOT of time effort and money to go through the rezoning process, to build more.

in Toronto, even the amount a landlord can increase RENT is controlled by the government. the amount of regulation Land owners are under is crazy.

ex. if someone sprayed graffiti on your property, YOU have to clean it up. if you dont do it fast enough, the CITY will. then they will bill you. their cleaning is more expensive.

if a tenant doesnt pay RENT, the land lord has an INCREDIBLY long process trying to get the tenant evicted. (forget it if its winter) always JUST before the locksmith changes the locks, the tenant pays just enough to extend it longer. by the time he SKIPS OUT, he would have gotten away with MONTHS of free rent.

now you COULD take him to court, but there are LEGAL FEES. by the time you get the judge to force this tenant to give money, you would have already paid MORE in legal fees.

thus, ask any property managers. it is common to let non payment slide here and there. nothing developers and land owners are doing is illegal. but tenants get away with breaking the law ALL the time.

if you want to talk about quality, see TARION. new home owners can file complaints to TARION, who sends an inspector down. at the OWNERS EXPENSE. of course these people dont know anything. people complained so much when they were wrong, TARION had to introduce a FEE for when they file complaints.

http://www.tarion.com/Pages/default.aspx

OMG, my dear boy, did you even LOOK at the LINK you posted about RENT??

rents in HK

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menui...;s=idx_Business

Take the LOWEST RENT in Hong Kong, Chai Wan, under Transaction Price/Rent Mass-Residential Flats - Hong Kong.

Chai Wan is very far from the Downtown area, it is at the end of the metro line.

It costs $15,000 a month to RENT and $4 million to buy. According to your own post, the avg. HK grad salary is also the SAME, $15,139. That's 100% of salary.

You mistook the first column for rent, that first column is for PRICE, which should be followed by three additional ZEROs.

Based on the same Link, University Grads can only afford housing in New Territories where it takes 45 minutes to commute to town, where rents hover around $8,000-$15,000, that's easily 50%-100% of a Univeristy grad's salary, what about the majority, taxi drivers and waitresses??

Let's divide the price of the Chai Wan flat, $4 million, by monthly salary of $15,000, then by 12. We get 22 years of paying off the debt at 100% salary, excluding interest and assuming that poor University Grad doesn't spend on food, healthcare, transport, etc., with salary remaining constant/rising to match inflation.

Ugh....get your facts straight first, or you're embarrassing yourself when you accuse others of getting their facts wrong.

newties, sorry to hear about your cousins. Be glad you're not born there. Yes, the Govt. treats the land like it's THEIR property, so HKers work all their lives just to get a roof over their heads.

I heard that Donald Tsang suggested to a lawyer-doctor couple who complained they can't afford to live in HK to move to the New Territories, maybe Shenzhen. Whaddaguy!

have you lost your mind?

i made NO SUCH mistake. if i made a mistake its that i didnt WALK you through my posts even MORE than i already HAVE.

that is an AVERAGE. do you know what that means? it includes ALL types, including MULTIPLE BEDROOMS. most grads out of university rent ONE BEDROOM. unless they share, in which case its more than ONE INCOME.



BR = Bedroom
http://hongkong.locanto.hk/flats-for-rent/301/


1. 1 BR, 34 m² - Ryan Mansion - Mid-levels Hong Kong - HK$11,500
2. 1 BR, 74 m² - Space and Privacy in Western Hong Kong - HK$17,000
3. 1 BR - & 9733 Perfect shareflat is located at CWB& 9733 causeway bay - HK$4,900
4. 1 BR, 48 m² Near Taikoo Place in Quarry Bay, 5 min walk to MTR and Cityplaza - HK$13,800
5. 1 BR, 300 m² Great Studio Apartment in Mongkok - Hidden GEM - Garden View - HK$9,500,
6. 1 BR, 33 m² - Refurbished flat and studios near HKU, Sai Ying Poon for rent Sai Ying Poon, HK - HK$6,800
7. 1 beddroom apartment in Cheung Shan Wan in Kowloon - HK$6,500, 1 BR, 358 m²

want more? i can do this all day



1 BR, 78 m² - Walk 2 the BEST of Hong Kong -VIEW-Charming street- Sweet AREA Kennedy Town HK$10,500
1 BR - 1 bedroom flat in Cheung Shan Wan (Kowloon) (5 mins walk to MTR) cheung sha wan HK$6,300
1 BR, 125 m² - 2/F Flat & Roof. Tai Peng New Village. Lamma Is. Hong Kong. Lamma Island - HK$4,300

http://hongkong.locanto.hk/flats-for-rent/301/


they did NOT avg anything CLOSE to 15,000. in case you didnt get it though your head yet, when its an average all ALL BEDROOM TYPES, YOU EXPECT A SINGLE BEDROOM TO BE MUCH CHEAPER.


Rent Per Month Avg.
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 1,491.97 $

Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 883.73 $

assuming US DOLLAR, it is around $HK11,000 for IN THE CITY CENTRE and HK$7,000 for outside

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/count...untry=Hong+Kong

dont give me that, 11,000 is still so much of 15,000. do you have any CLUE how much rent is in Toronto core? compared with a fresh grad salary? IF they even get a job? i can tell you while HKU grad get avg 2 job offers, that ISNT the case here and most are just doing more education like masters.

now i thought you were going to stop coming back and saying stupid things?




btw, in comparison. here from the same site.


Toronto
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 1,300.20 $
Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 934.68 $
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_...mp;city=Toronto

New York
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 2,460.30 $
Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 1,613.64 $
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_...=New+York%2C+NY

London
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 1,967.41 $
Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 1,434.38 $
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_...amp;city=London

Tokyo
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 1,329.12 $
Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 1,067.96 $
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_...&city=Tokyo

Singapore
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 1,970.55 $
Apartment (1 bedroom) Outside of Centre 1,178.77 $
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_...;city=Singapore


NOT ONLY THAT!

the Index box at the top you see, is in comparison to New York City.

"Indexes at this website are relative to New York City (NYC). Which means that for New York City, each index should be 100(%). If another city has, for example, rent index of 120, it means rents in average in that city are 20% more expensive than in New York City. If the city has rent index of 70, that means in the average in that city rents are 30% less expensive than in New York City. "

you will find HK far less expensive than NYC



What is your monthly rental?
http://hongkong.geoexpat.com/forum/53/thread15058.html

here is yet another example. expats? living in Hong Kong, poll for how much they pay.

- the most vote are in the 5,000 to 10,000
- 57% pay under HK$15,000

this is reflective of my first link in my post on real ads for rent.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 13 2011, 05:12 AM

[millersdude]

...Are many young people moving away to other parts of China?...

10% of Hong Kong population has moved to China since year 1997. 60,000 Hong Kong citizens living in the nearby China city Shengzhen commutes to Hong Kong to work daily. It only takes them an hour for the commuting one way or two hours for round trip. The average rent payment in Shengzhen is half that of Hong Kong. The trend is more and more Hong Kongers opt to leave H.K. and moved to nearby China cities and commute to H.K. for work. Otherwise, it is pretty hard for them to live in H.K. except for the riches. I heard 50% of residents in H.K. have received some forms of government public financial assistance either on buying or renting apartments.

This post has been edited by millersdude: Apr 13 2011, 11:08 AM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

Here is a beautiful report:


Hong Kong residents' experience of and aspiration for taking up residence in the Mainland

http://www.censtatd.gov.hk/products_and_se...8_dt_detail.jsp


I shall present some of the findings.


Brief description of survey method

1.4 Some 10 000 households within a scientifically selected sample were successfully enumerated, constituting a response rate of 75%. Within each enumerated household, all persons aged 18 and over were selected for interview in respect of the survey on the experience of and aspiration for taking up residence in the mainland of China (the Mainland).




Percentage of persons aged 18 and over who had taken up residence in the Mainland among all persons aged 18 and over in Hong Kong

2.8% (1.7%)


Percentage of persons aged 18 and over who had taken up residence in the Mainland by reason for taking up residence in the Mainland

- Required by work 45.4% (71.3%)

- Better living environment in the Mainland 22.6% (5.8%

- Having relatives in the Mainland (other than spouse / children) 12.4% (7.2%)

- Lower cost of living in the Mainland 9.7% (7.0%)


Percentage of households intended to take up residence in the Mainland during the ten years after enumeration among all domestic households in Hong Kong

1.0% (1.4%)



Percentage of persons aged 18 and over who intended to take up residence in the Mainland during the ten years after enumeration among all persons aged 18 and over

1.2% (1.5%)


Percentage of persons aged 18 and over who intended to own / rent a residential property in the Mainland during the ten years after enumeration among all persons aged
18 and over

1.9% (1.8%)




Percentage of persons aged 18 and over who claimed that the plan of owning / renting a residential property in the Mainland would affect their plan of owning / renting a
residential property in Hong Kong among all persons aged 18 and over who intended to own / rent a residential property in the Mainland during the ten years after
enumeration

27.1% (18.0%)


It was estimated that some 155 400 persons aged 18 and over who had taken up residence in the Mainland apart from residing in Hong Kong at the time of enumeration, constituting 2.8% of all persons aged 18 and over in Hong Kong. (Table 3.1)



Compared with the results of the previous surveys, the percentage of persons aged 18 and over who had taken up residence in the Mainland had been increasing steadily from 0.8% in 2001 to 1.7% in 2005 and further increased to 2.8% in 2007 / 08. (Chart 3.1 and Table 3.1)





Of those 155 400 persons aged 18 and over who had taken up residence in the Mainland, 26.5% were aged 45 - 54 and 19.7% were aged 35 - 44. Their median age was 48. Persons aged 35 and over had a higher rate of having taken up residence in the Mainland when compared with the younger persons.



here are some graphs:


the REASON for moving to Mainland


the AGE of those doing it


darn.....screenshot messed up and somewhat covered the median age. which was 45/48 btw.

the MARITAL STATUS of those doing it



conclusions: while those 18 and over taking up residence in mainland is increasing, it was a very small percentage. .8% in 2001, 1.7% in 2005 and 2.8% in 2007. on average, it is a middle aged married male who is sent there by work. a minuscule % cited lower living costs in Mainland and young people are the LEAST likely to go.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 13 2011, 01:09 PM

[twinklestar]

A lot of hk ppl(including myself) get very frustrated with the high expensive housing and living. It's horrible and it's gonna get worse. HK really ain't cheap. For anything essential for living, like food, fuel, clothing and housing should be at a controlled affordable price. Lots and lots of people my age (27) can't even afford rent if they move out and rent a place, they can't possibily save up at all. if u make 16000 hkd a month, u pay 8500 rent(which is a $hitty place if u live in the city), u spend 1000 on public transport, 2-3000 on food, 1000 for utility, give your mother 3000 to support family then u are kind of screwed. mmm...you can't really mortgage a flat with 16000hkd either, unless u somehow managed to come up with 30% deposit. That still depends on what flat though. But u can't really afford anything decent but the $hitty old buildings that u can afford. When we are buying a flat, need to pay for all public areas, stairs, corridors, playground...even the thinkness of walls also counted in selling price. HK developers are so suck! All my friends that aren't married, at my age, they all live with their parents(can't afford to move out) and it's driving them mad u get to a point u are getting really too old to be told what to do, constantly, by your parents. Things are just getting more and more messed up here and no one listens!

Things doesn't always work by the book between the government and developers. They can make secret agreement or special offer to them in other terms. Its almost impossible for ICAC find evidence to prove they are corrupted even though there's corruption. Developers may offer them a position in their company as Director or Consulants, then give them high wages, in fact they do nothing in the company just receive money. Offering a position is legal by law even though everyone in HK knows it is corruption. Another method, the government person must be old enough to retire soon. If not old enough and they quit, they won't be able to get their MPF money (They have good MPF if retired, greater than 1 million).They normally use retirement as excuse to quit from government job after making a secret agreement with developers. These are some of the smart tricks they may have used to evade the law.

These are some of the beef I wanted to share...

[Mid-Night_Sun]

A lot of hk ppl(including myself) get very frustrated with the high expensive housing and living. It's horrible and it's gonna get worse. HK really ain't cheap. For anything essential for living, like food, fuel, clothing and housing should be at a controlled affordable price. Lots and lots of people my age (27) can't even afford rent if they move out and rent a place, they can't possibily save up at all. if u make 16000 hkd a month, u pay 8500 rent(which is a $hitty place if u live in the city), u spend 1000 on public transport, 2-3000 on food, 1000 for utility, give your mother 3000 to support family then u are kind of screwed. mmm...you can't really mortgage a flat with 16000hkd either, unless u somehow managed to come up with 30% deposit. That still depends on what flat though. But u can't really afford anything decent but the $hitty old buildings that u can afford. When we are buying a flat, need to pay for all public areas, stairs, corridors, playground...even the thinkness of walls also counted in selling price. HK developers are so suck! All my friends that aren't married, at my age, they all live with their parents(can't afford to move out) and it's driving them mad u get to a point u are getting really too old to be told what to do, constantly, by your parents. Things are just getting more and more messed up here and no one listens!

Things doesn't always work by the book between the government and developers. They can make secret agreement or special offer to them in other terms. Its almost impossible for ICAC find evidence to prove they are corrupted even though there's corruption. Developers may offer them a position in their company as Director or Consulants, then give them high wages, in fact they do nothing in the company just receive money. Offering a position is legal by law even though everyone in HK knows it is corruption. Another method, the government person must be old enough to retire soon. If not old enough and they quit, they won't be able to get their MPF money (They have good MPF if retired, greater than 1 million).They normally use retirement as excuse to quit from government job after making a secret agreement with developers. These are some of the smart tricks they may have used to evade the law.

These are some of the beef I wanted to share...

controlled to affordable price? how? its a free market. you want the gov. to just put limits on everything? you want to tell developers, grocery store owners, etc. how much they can sell for?

your breakdown of finance is hardly screwed by the way. besides that you kick up 3k when NOT living at home (if you did there wouldnt even be the 8-10k rent), its based on the assumption you stay at a fresh grad salary. the comparison here is you are lucky if you get a job that isnt min. wage. (btw, i guess we are ignoring all public housing?)

% of deposit is necessary. one reason the world went into a world recession is because of the lax regulations in american banks who just kept approving loans that they shouldnt have been approving. in comparison, Canadian banks had much more regulation and we didnt experience nearly as much $hit as the US did.


people were greedy. at the end of the day, they were trying to live beyond their means/more than they should have been able to afford and the world paid for it.


whether those amenities are outlined separately or not you will be paying for it one way or another. it is part of the property and raises the value of the units. im referring to playground and other common elements that is accessible by anyone who lives in the building. not so much stairs and corridors.


your board of consultants thing, what is the benefit of colluding with officials? to what end? typically in real estate, its so you can get projects approved fast. which actually is something HK needs if you look at its need for supply.


the number one rule in real estate, which almost everyone knows, is "location, location, location". HK is an alpha+ ranked city and its land is worth a lot. that is reality and prices have just as much bearing on that alone as it does with the quality of the unit itself. so it means a low quality housing in HK can still be worth more than high quality housing in the middle of nowhere.


honestly, if all this is about it is tough to cope on an avg. salary without taking advantage of a single gov. assistant program (rent geared to income anyone???) then yea, i agree its more difficult. but that is why there are gov. assistance programs....grads here dont even expect a guaranteed job after graduating. i dont know why you expect to be able to buy a flat.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 15 2011, 06:05 AM

[faydabakery]

There are a few things that sound similar to the US housing bubble. Like China, the US was on a sharp economic incline. While this was happening, there was a mentality of everyone should own a home just like many Chinese believe. Sounds great right? Everyone's making money and they now everyone can get homes. Even the system is geared towards home ownership. If you do buy a home, you get to lower your taxes. This is a huge incentive. And of course we all know that there was not enough regulation and loans were given out with abandon. The difference with Chinese is that they know how to save money and when the time was right, they bought.

Here's the problem though. With a mentality of "we all deserve to own a home," you can get caught up in a similar bubble like the US did. As inflation climbs in China, it will be harder to buy a home. Seeing the average wage increase in HK is only $500 in the last 13 or 14 years from that other article that midnight sun posted, people will naturally get priced out of owning a home. People may just have to accept that they MISSED the opportunity to buy a home which is fine.

So if you really want to live in HK, you will just have to put up with the high cost of living. If you can't own, then rent and wait for the right time to buy. Don't be like Americans and get these crazy loans that their income cannot support or worse, job loss. As frustrating as it is, this IS the new reality. The cost of living in HK could be a lot worse. Just travel to New York City, Paris or London.

Price control for housing would be an interesting concept on a social level but only if there's a widespread belief that everyone deserves to own a home. Not owning a home is not going to be the end of the world.

[Mid-Night_Sun]

^ very true.

whats more is some people all want things cheaper. that means property value goes down. cheaper for some, but how do you think those already paying mortgages will feel?

its not a coincidence that in the US, there were SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many foreclosures.

those who already own, after decades of that mortgage wont be thrilled either.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Apr 15 2011, 10:09 AM

[faydabakery]

I think the government is trying to artificially push down demand by restricting one home per person and also only allowing current residents to purchase homes. I saw this on TV so I don't have any links but thought it was an interesting tactic. A Chinese CEO thought this wouldn't work though.