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China's Attitudes concerning Russia, (your thoughts?) update*
Liang1a
post Aug 18 2011, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Megapower @ Aug 18 2011, 12:14 AM) *
Ugh.... you realize that there is a lot of natural resources on this great Earth, and not a lot of it is located in China. In fact, for China's enormous and ever expanding demand, there is insufficient amount of raw materials to keep China's economy humming securely in the medium to long term...

Unfortunately, if the native lands of china is unable to give China, her people, and her raw demands for natural resources all the neccessary components she needs to live a better life and to improve the satisfaction and pride, and glory of the Chinese people...

then she must expand.

That's the nature of the beast. Our relationship with Russia is not permanent. Our strategic logic must be long term in nature, and we must be careful with Russia - but never think that the Chinese people are intimidated about the might of Russia....

Conclusion: Expansion into foreign territories for acquisition of commodity producing assets is an unfortunate reality of life - we must be subtle and invest in a modern military capable of handling any threat to our sovereign territorial interest within and abroad.

For make certain this - Chinese who even remotely suggest of war are not traitors of Western wannabes - A war in the Far Eastern Russia is at this moment, supremely impossible... for China's interest is growing her economy and securing the resources the real way - extracting from native lands, and importing where native lands cannot satisfy monstrous demands.

When the disorder time is right, I hope my analysis is wrong, because it will most surely get REALLY ugly in the future over natural resources.


Actually China is the richest country in the world in terms of mineral resources. China is the biggest producer of more than 60% of the world's minerals and among the top 10 producers in another 30% of the world's minerals. There are very few minerals that China does not have a large amount of. The only ones I know of are uranium and platinum and oil. For example, China is the biggest producer of gold and at least the third biggest producer of silver. China has more rare earth elements than the rest of the world combined. China has millions of tons of lithium carbonate with potentially millions of tons more to be discovered. China has hundreds of billions of tons (yes, billions with a b) of iron ore reserve and one of the biggest reserves of coal. And the list goes on and on. Therefore, China is the biggest and richest country in the world in terms of mineral resources. And for those resources that China lacks, they can be replaced. For example, China probably has large quantities of thorium since thorium is usually present with rare earth elements. Since China has tens of thousands of tons of uranium it can provide the fuel to breed the thorium into uranium-233 which is just as good as uranium-235 as nuclear fuel. China can also replace oil as fuel for cars by producing electricity with wind turbines and power cars with lithium batteries. Remember what I said about China having one of the biggest if not the biggest reserve of lithium in the world.

So don't let people mislead you into thinking China is poor in mineral resources. China is the richest country in the world in term of mineral riches. It is nonsense to say that China must use militry force to plunder other countries for their resources. Through efficient use of its own resources and innovative use of new sources such as wind, solar, and nuclear energies China can be for most parts self-sufficient. For the few resources that China does not have they can in most cases be replaced by resources that China has as I explaied above. Lastly, with advanced technologies China can recycle its minerals. For example, lithium carbonate can be recycled almost indefinitely. Steel can also be recycled; as copper, platinum, etc. And China can trade for the very few minerals that it does not have by exporting its superior high technologies. In the end, it is nonsense that China lacks resources and must plunder other countries for them. China is rich in resources and can be self-sufficient in all but a very few mineral resources. Those can be replaced or traded for peacefully and mutually advantageously.
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Liang1a
post Aug 18 2011, 08:07 PM
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QUOTE
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90882/7573833.html

During the 11th Five-Year Plan period (2006-2010), about 3.4 billion yuan was channeled into the geological exploration programs in Qinghai, and 17 new ore fields were found. Breakthroughs were also achieved in prospecting coal, iron ore, copper, lead, zinc, gold and silver.

The size of 58 categories of the province's retained resource reserves rank in the top 10 nationwide, which includes 27 among the top three and 11 ranked first.


I have just come across an article in peopledaily.com about prospecting for minerals in the Qinghai Province in China. The above quote is self-explanatory. It just shows the tremendous minerals wealth of China.

China is currently importing many minerals such as iron and copper which is obviously a criminal waste of China's foreign exchange. China must rely on its own mineral resources and stop squandering its foreign exchange. If China has too much foreign exchange then it must reduce its exports and reallocate its resources to produce goods and services for the consumption of the Chinese people.

This post has been edited by Liang1a: Aug 18 2011, 08:09 PM
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reutty
post Aug 25 2011, 09:05 AM
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QUOTE (Liang1a @ Aug 19 2011, 02:52 PM) *
I have just come across an article in peopledaily.com about prospecting for minerals in the Qinghai Province in China. The above quote is self-explanatory. It just shows the tremendous minerals wealth of China.

China is currently importing many minerals such as iron and copper which is obviously a criminal waste of China's foreign exchange. China must rely on its own mineral resources and stop squandering its foreign exchange. If China has too much foreign exchange then it must reduce its exports and reallocate its resources to produce goods and services for the consumption of the Chinese people.


you are foolish. a country should hold its own minerals in reserve, and buy everyone elses, so that they will run out of minerals first. if china foolishly uses its own mineral reserves, if will run out fast, and it will have to import from other countries, which will jack up the mineral prices, since they have leverage over china, since china will have no reserves left. if you buy from other countries, they can't jack up the prices since you have reserves left over.

did you go to school or not?
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Liang1a
post Aug 25 2011, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (reutty @ Aug 25 2011, 09:05 AM) *
you are foolish. a country should hold its own minerals in reserve, and buy everyone elses, so that they will run out of minerals first. if china foolishly uses its own mineral reserves, if will run out fast, and it will have to import from other countries, which will jack up the mineral prices, since they have leverage over china, since china will have no reserves left. if you buy from other countries, they can't jack up the prices since you have reserves left over.

did you go to school or not?



I went to UC Berkeley and got a MS degree. Where did you go to school?

China has hundreds of billions of tons of iron ore proven reserve as I indicated before. It is consuming some 3 billion tons per year, much of it to produce products for exports such as hubcaps. At its current rate of consumption it has enough for more than 100 years. By that time there will be so much scrap around they can be recycled almost indefinitely. Of course, China must reduce its excessive exports only to make foreign exchange which is deposited to foreign banks or to buy foreign government debts. In fact I don't think China will ever need to use up all its iron ore reserve. New iron ore deposits are being found which means China probably has hundreds of billions of tons more yet to be discovered.

The most foolish thing for China to do now is to squander its hard earned forex to pay for things it has in great abundance. As I indicated before, China is paying hundreds of billions of dollars to import iron ore when it can easily use its own. In comparison China's entire military budget is less than $100 billion. By reducing iron ore import and increase China's military, educational system, medical system, and urbanization project China can increase the development of its economy and improve the standard of living of its people at a much faster rate.

It is pure nonsense to say China must hoard a mineral that it has in great abundance while seriously reducing the development of its overall society to pay for its import.

"if you buy from other countries, they can't jack up the prices since you have reserves left over."

This is particularly wrong because foreign iron ore porducers are already jacking up prices. If you go to the following link you can see the historical prices of iron ore:

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?com...&months=180

You will see that the price of iron ore prior to 2003 was less than $12 per ton. Since then the price has gone up to $190 per ton earlier this year and is now around $175 per ton. It seems you are clueless about the prices of iron ore and knew nothing when you talk about "jacking up prices" of iron ore when it has already been jacked up more than 1,500% in less than 10 years all due to China's excessive importation of foreign ore.

This post has been edited by Liang1a: Aug 25 2011, 04:44 PM
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reutty
post Aug 29 2011, 07:28 PM
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QUOTE (Liang1a @ Aug 26 2011, 11:17 AM) *
I went to UC Berkeley and got a MS degree. Where did you go to school?

The most foolish thing for China to do now is to squander its hard earned forex to pay for things it has in great abundance. As I indicated before, China is paying hundreds of billions of dollars to import iron ore when it can easily use its own. In comparison China's entire military budget is less than $100 billion. By reducing iron ore import and increase China's military, educational system, medical system, and urbanization project China can increase the development of its economy and improve the standard of living of its people at a much faster rate.

It is pure nonsense to say China must hoard a mineral that it has in great abundance while seriously reducing the development of its overall society to pay for its import.


YOU don't understand something simple- corruption is massive in local chinese villages, the local CCP bosses will be in league with gangsters, triads, whatever you want to call them, regardless of what the head CCP wants to do in beijing.

if chinese start large scale mining of mineral resources in China, they will be smuggled out by local gangsters to foreign countries, and sold to foreign companies to make smartphones etc.

there was an article on rare earths in national geographic, about how gangsterism and corruption was so bad in southern China, that the official CCP news reported that several millions worth of rare earth minerals, several tons, were smuggled out of the country, and the mining projects themselves severely polluted the environment and endangered local people.

mining is not a clean industry. If you want massive pollution nd enviroenmental damage, go ahead, do it in your own country. better to make other countries suffer the damage than to mine your own. Plus the local triads and CCP boss will sell and smuggle the minerals abroad.

China has wisely exported the mining problems to India, and imported the iron from india.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/28/world/asia/28mining.html

QUOTE
NEW DELHI — Illegal iron ore mining involving hundreds of Indian officials and powerful politicians has devastated local communities in the southern state of Karnataka and cost its treasury more than $3.5 billion in revenue, according to a scathing report by an official anticorruption panel that was released on Wednesday.

Despite Scandals, Indian Mining Bosses Thrive (August 19, 2010) “In the illegal mining and irregularities committed in the export of iron ore, we have found the involvement of some 100 mining companies, about 600 officials, powerful politicians including the chief minister,” Santosh Hegde, a retired Supreme Court justice who led the investigation, said at a news conference in Bangalore, the state’s capital.

Karnataka and the neighboring state of Andhra Pradesh have large reserves of iron ore, but much of it is believed to be mined illegally as the price of the ore, which is in demand in China, India and other developing economies in Asia, has soared . Investigators say much of the Indian ore was illegally shipped to China.



http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/...s/folger-text/2
QUOTE
The Mountain Pass mine closed in 2002, and Baotou, a city in Inner Mongolia (an autonomous region of China), became the world's new rare earth capital. Baotou's mines hold about 80 percent of China's rare earths, says Chen Zhanheng, director of the academic department of the Chinese Society of Rare Earths in Beijing. But Baotou has paid a steep price for its supremacy. Some of the most environmentally benign and high-tech products turn out to have very dirty origins indeed.

Rare earth mines often also contain radioactive elements, such as uranium and thorium. Villagers near Baotou reportedly have been relocated because their water and crops have been contaminated with mining wastes. Every year the mines near Baotou produce about ten million tons of wastewater, much of it either highly acidic or radioactive, and nearly all of it untreated. Chen maintains that the Chinese government is making an effort to clean up the industry.

"The government has already made strict regulations to protect the environment and weed out the backward techniques, equipment, and products," Chen wrote in an email. "Those factories without abilities of environmental protection will be closed or merged with bigger companies."

The Chinese government may eventually be able to regulate the large rare earth mining industry around Baotou. But some of the smaller mines in southern China will be more difficult to control—because they're operating outside the law to begin with. Violent criminal gangs run dozens of heavily polluting—and profitable—rare earth mines in Jiangxi and Guangdong Provinces. Xinhua, the official Chinese news agency, has reported that criminals smuggled 20,000 tons of rare earths from the country in 2008, nearly a third of the total rare earth exports for that year. If you own a smart phone or a flat-screen television, it may contain contraband rare earths from southern China.

"People don't understand how totally corrupt the system in China is, with local party people aiding and abetting criminals in a very substantial way," says Alan Crawley, CEO of Pacific Ores Metals & Chemicals, a trading company in Hong Kong. Crawley speaks from experience. One of his colleagues was murdered 11 years ago by Guangdong gangsters. "The Hong Kong police can't do anything," he says. "The killers fled back to the mainland."
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Blackdude
post Aug 29 2011, 09:59 PM
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^

You guys are pretty behind, the population of Siberia which is 75% of the Russian territory only has 30 million Russians. Eastern Siberia and Far east Russia have a population of 11 million Russians [One estimate put it at 6 million.] Meanwhile neighboring Chinese provinces of Heilongjiang and Jilin, and also in Hulunbuir prefecture-level city and Hinggan league of Inner Mongolia Autonomous Region of the PRC live at least 70 million people to 90 million people. Chinese are constantly moving into Siberia and they pretty much hold the economy there while the Russian population vanishes.

This post has been edited by Blackdude: Aug 29 2011, 10:00 PM
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freezingpoint
post Aug 29 2011, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Liang1a @ Aug 25 2011, 04:32 PM) *
I went to UC Berkeley and got a MS degree. Where did you go to school?

China has hundreds of billions of tons of iron ore proven reserve as I indicated before. It is consuming some 3 billion tons per year, much of it to produce products for exports such as hubcaps. At its current rate of consumption it has enough for more than 100 years. By that time there will be so much scrap around they can be recycled almost indefinitely. Of course, China must reduce its excessive exports only to make foreign exchange which is deposited to foreign banks or to buy foreign government debts. In fact I don't think China will ever need to use up all its iron ore reserve. New iron ore deposits are being found which means China probably has hundreds of billions of tons more yet to be discovered.

The most foolish thing for China to do now is to squander its hard earned forex to pay for things it has in great abundance. As I indicated before, China is paying hundreds of billions of dollars to import iron ore when it can easily use its own. In comparison China's entire military budget is less than $100 billion. By reducing iron ore import and increase China's military, educational system, medical system, and urbanization project China can increase the development of its economy and improve the standard of living of its people at a much faster rate.

It is pure nonsense to say China must hoard a mineral that it has in great abundance while seriously reducing the development of its overall society to pay for its import.

"if you buy from other countries, they can't jack up the prices since you have reserves left over."

This is particularly wrong because foreign iron ore porducers are already jacking up prices. If you go to the following link you can see the historical prices of iron ore:

http://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?com...&months=180

You will see that the price of iron ore prior to 2003 was less than $12 per ton. Since then the price has gone up to $190 per ton earlier this year and is now around $175 per ton. It seems you are clueless about the prices of iron ore and knew nothing when you talk about "jacking up prices" of iron ore when it has already been jacked up more than 1,500% in less than 10 years all due to China's excessive importation of foreign ore.


Here, let me just tell you something as a fellow UCer: FOREX means jack sh!t for countries as big as China. FOREX cannot be used to "improve the status of things at home" because you can't spend FOREX in China. its ONLY use is for importing other things. you'd have to be an idiot to NOT import. FOREX in and of itself may be useful for small countries that need it to prop up their worthless monopoly money but for China, the most criminal thing to do has actually been to amass so much FOREX in exchange for physical goods.
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TheFirstSamurai
post Sep 2 2011, 02:39 AM
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Interesting as how not even the Mongol Empire expanded into Northern Siberia because even to the Mongols, it was like worthless territory... but now, the oil and gas-bearing layers make it a rich strategic valueable land.

This post has been edited by TheFirstSamurai: Sep 2 2011, 02:40 AM
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nvrpicurnose
post Sep 3 2011, 07:39 PM
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The cultural differences would result in a lot of personal conflict between ethnic Russians and Chinese, seen already in northern china bordering Russia. The Slavs are quite violent... personally I think the Chinese should fight back in defense because its really a low blow to National Pride. bawling.gif
they do have something to fear though embarassedlaugh.gif
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truthfinder
post Nov 21 2011, 09:21 PM
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While it is useful to have Russia as a member in SCO; which means that Russia is some kind of China's quasi-ally, one must not forget how Russia was also the one which causes outer mongolia to break out of China...

China must never trust Russia completely...

If EU cannot hold on to Euro; it will be in the benefit of China since it's easier to deal with each of those countries as compared with the EU...

China should never let EU being too much under Russia's influence since it will not be beneficial for China...

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Asianfrog
post Aug 10 2012, 07:40 AM
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QUOTE (truthfinder @ Nov 22 2011, 04:21 AM) *
China must never trust Russia completely...


Neither does Russia !


China has territorial claims to nearly 20 countries:

Despite the fact that the Chinese are very pleased to partner with Russia and have always supported Russia in the UN Security Council, in person, on the sidelines, its diplomats supposedly jokingly hint to their Russian colleagues: you must understand that soon you will have to share the Far East? China has more than a billion people, while Russia's vast territory barely has 150 million.

http://english.pravda.ru/world/asia/17-07-...orial_claims-0/
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