Is the Dalai Lama the end of the line? Options

[elleX0]

Will the Gelugpa Buddhist sect die out in the near future? Can they still hold out hope for returning to Tibet?

13 May 2011 Last updated at 15:58
China 'will not talk' to new Tibetan leader

Lobsang Sangay has said he is ready to negotiate with China "anytime, anywhere"

China appears to have ruled out talks with the Tibetan government-in-exile's new prime minister, Lobsang Sangay.

A top Chinese official dealing with Tibetan contacts said Beijing would only meet with representatives of the Dalai Lama.

In an interview with state media, Zhu Weiqun said the exile government was an illegal group with no recognition.

Mr Sangay was elected by Tibetan exiles around the world last month to take on the Dalai Lama's political role.

The Dalai Lama said in March that he wanted to devolve this responsibility to an elected official, saying that such a move was in the best interests of the Tibetan people.

The Dalai Lama will retain his role as Tibetan spiritual leader.

Analysts say he aims to ensure that even if China's government tries to select the next Dalai Lama, the Tibetans will have an elected leader they can look to who is outside China and beyond the Communist Party's control.

In recent years, the Communist Party's United Front Work Department has held unsuccessful on-off talks with the Dalai Lama's envoys.


The Tibet Divide
China says Tibet was always part of its territory
Tibet enjoyed long periods of autonomy before 20th Century
In 1950, China launched a military assault
Opposition to Chinese rule led to a bloody uprising in 1959
Tibet's spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, fled to India
Dalai Lama now advocates a "middle way" with Beijing, seeking autonomy but not independence
And Vice-Minister Zhu's comments show little hope of improved relations between Beijing and the new exiled leadership in India.

In an interview with the official "Chinese Tibet" magazine, Mr Zhu described the government-in-exile as "a splittist political clique that has betrayed the motherland".

He said there was "nothing legal about them" and that they had "no status to 'talk' with the central government's representatives".

Mr Sangay, a Harvard University academic, said in a recent interview that he was ready to negotiate with China "anytime, anywhere".

He says his government will seek genuine autonomy for Tibet under Chinese rule by following the "middle path" advocated by the Dalai Lama.

Analysts say Mr Sangay faces a tough challenge as the elected head of a government which no country recognises and with China as an opponent which has shown no sign of wanting to compromise.

[elleX0]

Will the Gelugpa Buddhist sect die out in the near future? Can they still hold out hope for returning to Tibet?

Can anyone explain to me the difference:
"Dalai Lama now advocates a "middle way" with Beijing, seeking autonomy but not independence"

I always thought that autonomy and independence meant the same thing in politics.

Anyway The Dalai Lama should have stuck to religious matters and not political matters right from the beginning, and he would still be in Tibet. He has been badly advised.

[devils666]

Can anyone explain to me the difference:
"Dalai Lama now advocates a "middle way" with Beijing, seeking autonomy but not independence"

I always thought that autonomy and independence meant the same thing in politics.

Anyway The Dalai Lama should have stuck to religious matters and not political matters right from the beginning, and he would still be in Tibet. He has been badly advised.

Those seperatists have been funded by the west for years. The CIA initiated those riots and everyone knows. Most Tibet finatics have never stepped foot in modern Tibet - including the Dalai Lama himself. And anyone who has studyed Buddhism knows that excluding oneself from worldly problems is their main principle. A religious leader involved in politics is against Buddhist principles.

Also, the worldwide Dalai Lama trust fund is headquartered in NY and they accept donations:
http://www.dalailama.com/office/the-dalai-lama-trust

[DOUBLEMINT]

Can anyone explain to me the difference:
"Dalai Lama now advocates a "middle way" with Beijing, seeking autonomy but not independence"

I always thought that autonomy and independence meant the same thing in politics.

Anyway The Dalai Lama should have stuck to religious matters and not political matters right from the beginning, and he would still be in Tibet. He has been badly advised.

What does he mean by seeking autonomy?Tibet is already an antonomous region.So maybe what he really want is the leadership of the tibet region?He need to stop acting like he cares about the tibetian people.

This post has been edited by DOUBLEMINT: May 16 2011, 08:20 PM

[elleX0]

What does he mean by seeking autonomy?Tibet is already an antonomous region.So maybe what he really want is the leadership of the tibet region?He need to stop acting like he cares about the tibetian people.

Doublemint, But the Dalai Lama envisions himself as the Emperor of Tibet through his spiritual leadership. But Beijing will not give him that honour!

[catman]

Those seperatists have been funded by the west for years. The CIA initiated those riots and everyone knows.

Evidence?

[SkyBurial]

Evidence?

http://www.ciaintibet.com/about_project.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_Tibetan_uprising
What? I thought this was common knowledge.

This post has been edited by SkyBurial: May 17 2011, 10:25 PM

[KraterosHellas]

Those seperatists have been funded by the west for years. The CIA initiated those riots and everyone knows. Most Tibet finatics have never stepped foot in modern Tibet - including the Dalai Lama himself. And anyone who has studyed Buddhism knows that excluding oneself from worldly problems is their main principle. A religious leader involved in politics is against Buddhist principles.

Also, the worldwide Dalai Lama trust fund is headquartered in NY and they accept donations:
http://www.dalailama.com/office/the-dalai-lama-trust

i have the same suspicions. tibetans by themselves wouldn't make such a fuss about independence as we have today.

[KochiGachi]

Don't disaccount India, Tibetan movement have sizable Indian support.

[elleX0]

Don't disaccount India, Tibetan movement have sizable Indian support.

India has always been a trouble maker in the border regions but they are no match.

[catman]

http://www.ciaintibet.com/about_project.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1959_Tibetan_uprising
What? I thought this was common knowledge.

He was talking about the riots a couple of years ago.

[elleX0]

He was talking about the riots a couple of years ago.

Nothing has changed.

[newties21]

Will the Gelugpa Buddhist sect die out in the near future? Can they still hold out hope for returning to Tibet?

What you said is very exaggerated, and is false, because the Yellow Hats are still alive and well. They are in Tibet and they are thriving.
How many people are living in Dharamsala India and how many people are in Tibet ?
The ones in Dharamsala is just a very small percentage and proportion, they would be meaningless if not for the existence of the 14th leader.

Seems like you are very concerned, and even go to the extent of saying "is Dalai Lama the end of the line"
I suppose you say it because of the political situation, and you have believed the propaganda that after the 14th, then there wont be any "valid" successor to be the 15th because the successor would need Chinese government approval and thusly of course any appointment is invalid.

Right ?

Only problem with this type of thinking is that the 14th himself would be invalidated, and also a long line previously.

This post has been edited by newties21: May 18 2011, 06:30 PM

[catman]

Nothing has changed.

Would love to see the evidence.

[elleX0]

What you said is very exaggerated, and is false, because the Yellow Hats are still alive and well. They are in Tibet and they are thriving.
How many people are living in Dharamsala India and how many people are in Tibet ?
The ones in Dharamsala is just a very small percentage and proportion, they would be meaningless if not for the existence of the 14th leader.

Seems like you are very concerned, and even go to the extent of saying "is Dalai Lama the end of the line"
I suppose you say it because of the political situation, and you have believed the propaganda that after the 14th, then there wont be any "valid" successor to be the 15th because the successor would need Chinese government approval and thusly of course any appointment is invalid.

Right ?

Only problem with this type of thinking is that the 14th himself would be invalidated, and also a long line previously.

newties21, that is not what I meant. If the Gelugpa sect is intransigent about their demands of "autonomy/independence" and the PRC are equally intransigent about their sovereignty over the "whole of China" then a compromise is impossible.

So if the next few generations of Dalai Lamas are reincarnated in Dharamsala, INDIA, then the will demand "autonomy/independence" of Dharamsala and the surrounding territories from India. Eventually, Gelugpa Buddhist Sect will revert back into their homeland India and will be an Indian Buddhist religion. Tibet will have their own Buddhist leaders of their own sects. That will probably be the end result, that the Gelugpa sect has moved back to India. End of the problems in Tibet and other Buddhist sects will evolve to take its place. There are many OTHER BUDDHIST SECTS practicing peacefully in Tibet and China with no problems.

[newties21]

newties21, that is not what I meant. If the Gelugpa sect is intransigent about their demands of "autonomy/independence" and the PRC are equally intransigent about their sovereignty over the "whole of China" then a compromise is impossible.
So if the next few generations of Dalai Lamas are reincarnated in Dharamsala, INDIA, then the will demand "autonomy/independence" of Dharamsala and the surrounding territories from India. Eventually, Gelugpa Buddhist Sect will revert back into their homeland India and will be an Indian Buddhist religion. Tibet will have their own Buddhist leaders of their own sects. That will probably be the end result, that the Gelugpa sect has moved back to India. End of the problems in Tibet and other Buddhist sects will evolve to take its place. There are many OTHER BUDDHIST SECTS practicing peacefully in Tibet and China with no problems.

Yellow Hats are already in Tibet.

By the way, no Buddhism comes from India.

Buddhism was invented by a Nepali prince.

That's all I can say, try to read more.

[elleX0]

Yellow Hats are already in Tibet.

By the way, no Buddhism comes from India.

Buddhism was invented by a Nepali prince.

That's all I can say, try to read more.

NEWTIES21, Brilliant, So tell me is Nepal a part of Tibet then or is it a part of greater China? Because I always thought Nepal was in Northern India. It is certainly not part of Manchuria if I remember my geography correctly.

I also thought that Siddharta Gautama was a Hindu and died a Hindu, and the Buddhism was a philosophy rather than a religion.

Although the Yellow Hat sect was and still is in Tibet, the Gelugpa hierarchical serfdom is now dead in Tibet. There is nothing wrong with the Buddhism of the Yellow hats, it is the autocratic rule of the gelugpa monks that had to be destroyed and freedom given to the Tibetan peoples. No one is against Buddhism as such, but serfdom does not belong in the 21 century.

So maybe you, newties21 should read more books and learn about Tibetan Buddhism?

The Origin of Buddhism

Buddhism began as an offspring of Hinduism in the country of India. The founder was Siddhartha Gautama. It is not easy to give an accurate historical account of the life of Gautama, since no biography was recorded until hundreds of years after his death. Today, much of his life story is clouded in myths and legends which arose after his death. Even the best historians of our day have several different--and even contradictory--accounts of Gautama's life.

Siddhartha Gautama was born in approximately 560 B.C. in northern India. His father Suddhodana was the ruler over a district near the Himalayas which is today the country of Nepal. Suddhodana sheltered his son from the outside world and confined him to the palace where he surrounded Gautama with pleasures and wealth. Despite his father's efforts, Gautama one day saw the darker side of life on a trip he took outside the palace walls.

He saw four things that forever changed his life: an old man, a sick man, a dead man, and a beggar. Deeply distressed by the suffering he saw, he decided to leave the luxury of palace life and begin a quest to find the answer to the problem of pain and human suffering.

Gautama left his family and traveled the country seeking wisdom. He studied the Hindu scriptures under Brahmin priests, but became disillusioned with the teachings of Hinduism. He then devoted himself to a life of extreme asceticism in the jungle. Legend has it that he eventually learned to exist on one grain of rice a day which reduced his body to a skeleton. He soon concluded, however, that asceticism did not lead to peace and self realization but merely weakened the mind and body.

Gautama eventually turned to a life of meditation. While deep in meditation under a fig tree known as the Bohdi tree (meaning, "tree of wisdom"), Gautama experienced the highest degree of God-consciousness called Nirvana. Gautama then became known as Buddha, the "enlightened one." He believed he had found the answers to the questions of pain and suffering. His message now needed to be proclaimed to the whole world.

As he began his teaching ministry, he gained a quick audience with the people of India since many had become disillusioned with Hinduism. By the time of his death at age 80, Buddhism had become a major force in India. Three centuries later it had spread to all of Asia. Buddha never claimed to be deity but rather a "way- shower." However, seven hundred years later, followers of Buddha began to worship him as deity.

Siddhartha Gautama, the historical Buddha was born into a Hindu family. He even had an arranged marriage. When he left his family and the trappings of luxury at age 29, he studied many aspects of Hinduism including Yoga and Brahmin meditation. He spent time as a Hindu mendicant monk and later a ascetic monk while practicing vigorous techniques of physical and mental austerity. It is said that Siddhartha Gautama was adept at these practices and was even able to surpass many of his teachers. However, finding no answers to his questions and no end to suffering, he sat under a pipal tree and vowed not to rise until he found the truth. It was at this time that he reached enlightenment and started teaching what is today called Buddhism.

Gautama Buddha was born "siddhartha" in the year 563 B.C. to King Suddhodan & Maya Devi in the village of Lumbini near Kapila Vastu, within the present borders of Nepal.

He studied and practised Hindu discipline initially, and then, Jainism... he then took the middle path... which eventually led to his enlightenment in gaya

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006040115648



This post has been edited by elleX0: May 19 2011, 07:09 AM

[newties21]

...

Nepal is Nepal.

Nepal is not Northern India.

Nepal is a separate entity.

As to whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy, it is up to each individual to decide. I believe Buddhism is generally classified as a religion.

And I believe the question of serfdom is something separate. It is not something which is included in Yellow Hat Buddhism or in any religious teaching, but more of a customs / cultural practice / local culture / feudalism.
It is similar to saying Christianity encouraged Black slavery, which is wrong.

[elleX0]

Nepal is Nepal.

Nepal is not Northern India.

Nepal is a separate entity.

As to whether Buddhism is a religion or a philosophy, it is up to each individual to decide. I believe Buddhism is generally classified as a religion.

And I believe the question of serfdom is something separate. It is not something which is included in Yellow Hat Buddhism or in any religious teaching, but more of a customs / cultural practice / local culture / feudalism.
It is similar to saying Christianity encouraged Black slavery, which is wrong.

To most people this is a definition of religion:

A better definition is:

Belief in something sacred (for example, gods or other supernatural beings).
A distinction between sacred and profane objects.
Ritual acts focused on sacred objects.
A moral code believed to have a sacred or supernatural basis.
Characteristically religious feelings (awe, sense of mystery, sense of guilt, adoration), which tend to be aroused in the presence of sacred objects and during the practice of ritual.
Prayer and other forms of communication with the supernatural.
A world view, or a general picture of the world as a whole and the place of the individual therein. This picture contains some specification of an over-all purpose or point of the world and an indication of how the individual fits into it.
A more or less total organization of one’s life based on the world view.
A social group bound together by the above.

But as there is no deity in Buddhism it can only be a philosophy based on Hinduism.

Again, Nepal may be an independent Kingdom, but physically it is not located in Mongolia but in Northern India, geographically. It is considered as part of the Indian sub-continent. Its peoples are a mixture of peoples and cultures of the region.

Nepal is famous, as the world's only Hindu Kingdom. However, it is an intricate and beautiful tapestry formed by the interweaving of Hinduism, Buddhism and other beliefs.

This post has been edited by elleX0: May 20 2011, 05:58 AM

[qwerty2010]

Read Michael Parenti's "Friendly Feudalism" to understand more about the nature of different sects of Buddhism vs its widely held stereotype, violence, political and economic, as well as an account of what happened before and after the Communists came, and why after centuries of dealing with the Chinese rulers, this particular Chinese government is anathema to the Tibetan oligarchs:

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html


What's interesting is that among the exiled Tibetans, the Dalai Lama's vicious crackdown on the Shugden worshipers, a deity who is quite popular historically among Tibetans, is backfiring and the Shugden worshipers are openly rebelling against the Dalai Lama now :

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/

It is apparent that there is no freedom of religion among the exiles, who are ruled by a clique of the inner circle.

Maybe it's just me, but I personally prefer the Tibetans to develop a modern society instead of adhering to a theocracy that blatantly exploits the majority, leaving religion in a less encompassing role. However, the whole concept of "karma" is to accept one's lot in life, and to believe that one's serfdom and slavery is the punitive result of evil acts in a previous life, so in order to be born into a better life, one must accept suffering, exploitation and humiliation, to act like a saint in this life instead of fighting for one's rights.

This post has been edited by qwerty2010: May 29 2011, 08:27 AM