Is the Christian World Secularised Completely? Options

[elleX0]

avisitor:When I read, "doing nothing in the face of evil is evil" ... then I assume you talk about Islam as evil.
When you proclaim Islam as evil then I call that spreading hate. Even from the beginning,
saying"Geert Wilders Presents: 5 Steps Americans Must Take to Avoid the Fate of Islamized Europe" ..
makes it sound like Islam is a fate to be avoided like the plague. Sorry, there is no room for your propaganda.

Again, avisitor, you must define "evil" and how it has been used. You also have to define "HATE" before you accuse anyone of "hate mongering." From my understanding of Geert Wilders' presentation, he was basically speaking about "uncontrolled mass immigration" that needed stricter controls as it is causing social and economic problems in Europe. And no one can deny that that is not so.

And he was also highlighting that Islamic immigration, in particular, was a bigger cultural problem, because the Islamic people "could not and would not assimilate" into the native culture but want to impose their culture on the native culture. That is what he wanted to highlight and to find a solution to the immense problem brought about by the Europeans themselves for not understanding and appreciating the culture and ideology of Islam in the first place. And although this is rather late in the day, Wilders was attempting to elucidate the gulf of cultures and "his method" of resolving the problem.

It is a very serious problem and no one has been able to find a solution or a compromise to resolve the problem. The only way to find a solution is to be able to discuss it openly, to fully appreciate the problem and then to find an answer. The only way to do that is by openly discussing the problem with both sides contributing. And that is what Geert Wilders was doing, as far as I could see. The fact that he may dislike the Islamic ideology, and blames it for the cultural divide is a matter to be discuss and resolved. Without discussion, no one will know what the real problem is. I believe Wilders is a brave man to study and discuss the problem even with the threat of death. He is not putting his life on the limb for selfish personal reasons, by discussing Islam, he believes he is doing it to save European culture. Whether you agree with that or not is for you to make your points here, by discussion, and not blemishing the character of Wilders by simply labelling him "ISLAMOPHOBIC." Because from Wilders point of view, those who speak against his views are equally biased and prejudiced against his Judeo-Christian European views. So should we label sympathisers of Islam, Jihadists? For that is what they are!

So finally, is Jihadist propaganda acceptable but Judeo-Christian propaganda banned? Let us have a level playing field!

avisitor, "Now trying to twist things around so that your message of fear and hate can be spread is really going way out there.
I'm sorry but I'm not weak minded and will not take to hatred or fear of Islam. However, I will spend more time to
look into the religion and learn about it as you must have at one point.

avisitor, I do not "disseminate hate or fear" for I discuss facts, and Islamic religious text. If ISLAMIC RELIGIOUS TEXT instills fear and HATE in you or others who read what I have to say, then please blame the source(the Quran and the Hadiths) and do not blame or denigrate the "messenger." Blame Islam not what I tell you Islam preaches. SO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVES RIGHT.

I am sure that you are not weak minded, and I also hope that you are not bigoted. So when I quote the following verses from the Quran, it is the Quran verses I quote, but I am sure you will blame me for instilling hate. But it is the Quran speaking:

Quran 009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans(non-Muslims) wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent (accept Allah), and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran 008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord(Allah) inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers(non-Muslim): smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

avisitor, that to me "is Islamic declaration of hate and fear" not spoken by me but by Muhammad himself. But I quoted the Quran, but you will accuse me of fostering hate and Fear. avisitor, please lay the blame where it truly belongs, Islamic Holy Text.

Now, I have pointed out a few things that may be difficult for some of you to listen to, and now is you chance to look things up to see if I am telling lies or am I telling the truth, but to twist things around to say "I" am spreading "Hate and Fear" is total "MISINFORMATION." Check it out in the Quran.

avisitor, I am so pleased when you said, "I want to spend more time to look into the religion." It is so easy but it may take some time to accumulate the information you need. Just Google things like; (1) Origins of ALLAH, (2) The Origins of Islam, (3) The Authenticity of the Quran, (4) The Biography of the Prophet Muhammad, (5) The Tenets of Islam, (6) What is Islam? (7) How to be a Muslim, (8) Examples of Sharia Law, (9) What is "Abrogation" in Islam? (10) What is Taqiyya and Kitman? (11) What are "the 5-Pillars of Islam," and what are the 8 Pillars of Islam? (12) What does the Shahadah really mean to a Muslim? (13) What is the UMMAH? (14) What is Dar al Harb and Dar al Islam signify? (15) Jihad (16) Salat (in the Hadiths.)

Notice I have not recommended any anti-Islamic Topics or sites, you choose what you want to read on the internet. The topics listed ARE NOT HATE TOPICS. And the topics I have recommended are what every Muslim and non-Muslim should know about Islam. Then make up your mind which interpretation you wish to follow. It may take you up to 10 years to complete your knowledge about Islam alone, but then you should know as much as any Muslim; probably a whole lot more.

This post has been edited by elleX0: May 20 2011, 05:53 AM

[chutzpah]

Even from the beginning, saying"Geert Wilders Presents: 5 Steps Americans Must Take to Avoid the Fate of Islamized Europe" ..
makes it sound like Islam is a fate to be avoided like the plague. Sorry, there is no room for your propaganda.

Now trying to twist things around so that your message of fear and hate can be spread is really going way out there.

I will spend more time to look into the religion and learn about it as you must have at one point.

The threat is real and serious enough for the Australian Government to issue such directive, see enclosed link below. While the Oz government must be seen to uphold 'Multiculturalism' and PC, it also has little or almost no understanding or insight into Islam the religion, nevertheless it recognised the aim of the extremists.

If you are serious about understanding Islam the religion, then you will come to understand that these extremists mentioned are only doing what every Muslim must do inaccordance to the Quran as commanded by Allah through his prophet Mohammed, they are the true Muslims. The large majority of Muslims do not completely follow the teaching of Islam apart from the Friday prayer and the Ramadan fasting. elleXO calls this type the 'cultural' Muslim.

I am not here to spread fear or hatred against Muslims or Islam. I don't hate Muslims or anti Islam. Most Muslims are just ordinary folks with various aspirations similar to you and I. But I think it is awfully important to have some awareness as to what is happening around the world today with regard to Islam, how Islam has altered the world and our lives today and that it will continue to do so with stealth often under the guise of PC and multiculralism. 20 years ago, the Muslim women of SEA didn't wear the head scraf, but today most do, particularly in Islamic states such as IND and Malaysia. The rise of fundamentalism or Islamic extremism can not be denied. How the world has changed.

I hope after your research, you will have some understanding of Islam the religion, its history and how it was spread across the globe. History can teach us alot about certain aspect of Islam and Muslims.

Source: http://www.dfat.gov.au/publications/terrorism/is1.html

Transnational Terrorism: The Threat to Australia

Australian Government Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, 2004
ISBN 1 920959 04 1

Information Sheet 1: The new terrorist threat to Australia

Australia's security environment has changed and we are now directly threatened by a new kind of terrorism. It is transnational in nature and is more dangerous than previous examples of terrorism.

The perpetrators of this new threat are Muslim extremists but those who carry out these acts of terrorism are only a radical minority. Their behaviour is inconsistent with the core tenets of Islam and they do not represent the broader Muslim community.

The core driver of this terrorism is an extreme ideology which is deeply critical of the state of affairs in most Muslim nations, and resentful of the West's influence.

While the terrorists act in the name of the religion, their ultimate goal is political. They want to establish a caliphate or Islamic super-state that unites all Muslims and is free of Western presence and influence. They oppose governments in Muslim countries that do not agree with their extremist views and accuse them of being 'un-Islamic' and illegitimate.

The new terrorist threat is characterised globally by Al Qaida and by Jemaah Islamiyah in our region. Its methods are uncompromising and include large- scale, mass casualty attacks, like the September 11 attacks in the United States and the bombings in Bali and Madrid.

The nature of this terrorism makes it difficult to defeat. It works through loose networks and across borders. It is independent and does not rely on one country or a group of countries for support and survival. It is constantly evolving, regenerating and adapting to any threats or successes against it. And it is not open to compromise or negotiation.

The terrorists threaten Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Anybody who does not believe in their cause is considered to be a legitimate target. Many terrorist attacks have taken place in Muslim countries such as Indonesia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Morocco, and have included large numbers of Muslim victims

This post has been edited by chutzpah: May 20 2011, 04:56 AM

[avisitor]

Again, avisitor, you must define "evil" and how it has been used. You also have to define "HATE" before you accuse anyone of "hate mongering." From my understanding of Geert Wilders' presentation, he was basically speaking about "uncontrolled mass immigration" that needed stricter controls as it is causing social and economic problems in Europe. And no one can deny that that is not so.

Are we to use your definition?? Just like when Tangy wanted to use her definitions of secularism, I dismissed it
for the more general one that the ordinary population uses. I understand you believe there is something wrong with the
Islamic immigration. But, I can't say one way or the other until I have investigated more.

Whether you agree with that or not is for you to make your points here, by discussion, and not blemishing the character of Wilders by simply labelling him "ISLAMOPHOBIC." Because from Wilders point of view, those who speak against his views are equally biased and prejudiced against his Judeo-Christian European views. So should we label sympathisers of Islam, Jihadists? For that is what they are!

His views reminds me so much like the views of the Americans
when there was a large population of Chinese in California (time of the building of the railroads),
they feared the Chinese take over. People spread their fears and hatred.
So much so that congress passed laws to prevent the immigration of the Chinese (and especially Chinese women).
There were Chinese men in California who couldn't bring their wives to America.
Chinese women were forbidden to immigrate to America for fear of the Chinese establishing life in America.
Is this the type of fear you are spreading???

[i]avisitor, I do not "disseminate hate or fear" for I discuss facts, and Islamic religious text. If ISLAMIC RELIGIOUS TEXT instills fear and HATE in you or others who read what I have to say, then please blame the source(the Quran and the Hadiths) and do not blame or denigrate the "messenger." Blame Islam not what I tell you Islam preaches. SO GET YOUR PERSPECTIVES RIGHT.

I am sure that you are not weak minded, and I also hope that you are not bigoted. So when I quote the following verses from the Quran, it is the Quran verses I quote, but I am sure you will blame me for instilling hate. But it is the Quran speaking:

Quran 009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans(non-Muslims) wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent (accept Allah), and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Quran 008.012
YUSUFALI: Remember thy Lord(Allah) inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers(non-Muslim): smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

avisitor, that to me "is Islamic declaration of hate and fear" not spoken by me but by Muhammad himself. But I quoted the Quran, but you will accuse me of fostering hate and Fear. avisitor, please lay the blame where it truly belongs, Islamic Holy Text.

Now, I have pointed out a few things that may be difficult for some of you to listen to, and now is you chance to look things up to see if I am telling lies or am I telling the truth, but to twist things around to say "I" am spreading "Hate and Fear" is total "MISINFORMATION." Check it out in the Quran.

avisitor, I am so pleased when you said, "I want to spend more time to look into the religion." It is so easy but it may take some time to accumulate the information you need. Just Google things like; (1) Origins of ALLAH, (2) The Origins of Islam, (3) The Authenticity of the Quran, (4) The Biography of the Prophet Muhammad, (5) The Tenets of Islam, (6) What is Islam? (7) How to be a Muslim, (8) Examples of Sharia Law, (9) What is "Abrogation" in Islam? (10) What is Taqiyya and Kitman? (11) What are "the 5-Pillars of Islam," and what are the 8 Pillars of Islam? (12) What does the Shahadah really mean to a Muslim? (13) What is the UMMAH? (14) What is Dar al Harb and Dar al Islam signify? (15) Jihad (16) Salat (in the Hadiths.)

Notice I have not recommended any anti-Islamic Topics or sites, you choose what you want to read on the internet. The topics listed ARE NOT HATE TOPICS. And the topics I have recommended are what every Muslim and non-Muslim should know about Islam. Then make up your mind which interpretation you wish to follow. It may take you up to 10 years to complete your knowledge about Islam alone, but then you should know as much as any Muslim; probably a whole lot more.

AS I have said many times before, "seek and you shall find, even if it doesn't exist"
Look at the McCarthy era of looking for the enemy in our midst.

Yes, I will spend more time to investigate. This is not an easy subject.

The threat is real and serious enough for the Australian Government to issue such directive, see enclosed link below. While the Oz government must be seen to uphold 'Multiculturalism' and PC, it also has little or almost no understanding or insight into Islam the religion, nevertheless it recognised the aim of the extremists.

If you are serious about understanding Islam the religion, then you will come to understand that these extremists mentioned are only doing what every Muslim must do inaccordance to the Quran as commanded by Allah through his prophet Mohammed, they are the true Muslims. The large majority of Muslims do not completely follow the teaching of Islam apart from the Friday prayer and the Ramadan fasting. elleXO calls this type the 'cultural' Muslim.

I am not here to spread fear or hatred against Muslims or Islam. I don't hate Muslims or anti Islam. Most Muslims are just ordinary folks with various aspirations similar to you and I. But I think it is awfully important to have some awareness as to what is happening around the world today with regard to Islam, how Islam has altered the world and our lives today and that it will continue to do so with stealth often under the guise of PC and multiculralism. 20 years ago, the Muslim women of SEA didn't wear the head scraf, but today most do, particularly in Islamic states such as IND and Malaysia. The rise of fundamentalism or Islamic extremism can not be denied. How the world has changed.

I hope after your research, you will have some understanding of Islam the religion, its history and how it was spread across the globe. History can teach us alot about certain aspect of Islam and Muslims.

Okay, I will keep an eye open for what is going on in the world in regard to Muslims.
Please give me some time to investigate.

[elleX0]

avisitor: Are we to use your definition?? Just like when Tangy wanted to use her definitions of secularism, I dismissed it
for the more general one that the ordinary population uses. I understand you believe there is something wrong with the
Islamic immigration. But, I can't say one way or the other until I have investigated more.

No a definition is necessary to know that we are speaking of the same thing. I have never made "my definition" but I always sought a good reliable international dictionary or Thesaurus for a definition. I said define "hate" because I do not consider Geert Wilders are "hate" against Muslims, but he resents his culture being overtaken by an alien culture and is speaking out against it. That is not hate, that is expressing his fears of losing his culture. Does that amount to hate? Let me give you an example of "hate" from the Quran & Hadith:

Ishaq:325 "Muslims, fight in Allah's Cause. Stand firm and you will prosper(win). Help the Prophet, obey him, give him your allegiance, and your religion (Islam) will be victorious."

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them(kafir) until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."

That in my opinion amounts to stirring up hate. Wilders does not suggest anything like that. That is why I needed a definition of your impression of "Hate."

His views reminds me so much like the views of the Americans
when there was a large population of Chinese in California (time of the building of the railroads),
they feared the Chinese take over. People spread their fears and hatred.
So much so that congress passed laws to prevent the immigration of the Chinese (and especially Chinese women).
There were Chinese men in California who couldn't bring their wives to America.
Chinese women were forbidden to immigrate to America for fear of the Chinese establishing life in America.
Is this the type of fear you are spreading???

Yes, I agree with you that America tends to be paranoid about "-isms" some justified and some unjustified. But the fear of "The Yellow Peril" harks back to the days of Genghis Khan and still remains today in Europe, I am sure. So is the fear of the Jews and communism which is a constant fear. Whether justified or not, it is a rallying force that governments use to unite their people. The Chinese today will rally in an instant at the sounds of "a Nippon invasion." Memories die hard. As far as the american fear of the Chinese was concerned, it was sheer racism and prejudice, and unjustified.

Geert Wilders fears are legitimate and real, and he is highlighting it. He has every right to do so. Today the Taliban swear they will not stop fighting until the last infidel has left their soil. Is that justified? The Palestinians want all Jews out of Arab lands, is that justified? Should we let them drive the Jews out of Israel? these are all issues that have to be examined in the light of facts not propaganda. The Arab propaganda is very powerful, but we have not labelled them all Jihadists. But we label Wilders Islamophobic. Do we have the right perspective? Or are we biased and influenced by the propaganda we hear? Unless you are truly knowledgeable of the subject matter you are not in a position to decide in a unbiased manner.

AS I have said many times before, "seek and you shall find, even if it doesn't exist"
Look at the McCarthy era of looking for the enemy in our midst.

Yes, I will spend more time to investigate. This is not an easy subject.

Yes, I agree, McCarthy went over the top. But did he do a service to America, because America was riddled with Communist Spies, and Communist Sympathisers, and their loyalty was suspect. McCarthy had to clean out the rot in America. And he did that but he also ruined many innocent lives.

It is important that until you have investigated right to the root of the problem, you can never fully understand the problem and thus your decisions could be like that of McCarthy's, Clean out the bad and the good as well. But if you really understood the problem, they you can make a clean incision like the way Osama bin Laden was taken out. Hardly no collateral.

So, what is the most important issue today? The threat of Islam to Western civilisation. Is that true or false? The only way to know is to study in depth the problem. I am glad you are starting to dig into this topic. It will not go out of date, the problem will still be here the next 2 or 3 generations. Please continue to dig into our worldly problems. Good luck.

This post has been edited by elleX0: May 20 2011, 03:14 PM

[chutzpah]

Islam spreads in Oz by STEALTH: How Islam is changing the face and values of the Australian society, mostly due to PC and Muliticulturalism through immigrations. Islam is changing the Aussie values... but the question is why do Muslims come to Oz whose values they think is inferior? Why do Muslims migrate and want to change the very society they are attracted to in the first place? Muslims come by the boat loads and is presenting a real headache to the government.

If Ms Fautmeh Ardati resides in Saudi Arabia, I wonder if she COULD have the freedom of speaking up or hold a rally?

Source: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/its-unaustralian...0919-15hy0.html

It's un-Australian ... rally condemns push to ban burqa
Jacqueline Maley , September 20, 2010

Islamic values are superior to ''flawed'' Western secular values and non-Muslims are in no position to lecture Muslims about the oppression of women, a speaker said yesterday at a Sydney rally against proposals to ban the burqa.

''Despite the intense negative propaganda against Islam and in particular the lies about its treatment of women, the number of Western women embracing Islam continues to rise at a rapid rate,'' said Fautmeh Ardati, a member of the Islamic group Hizb ut-Tahrir. ''By turning their backs on this flawed way of life, it is testament of the superiority of Islamic values over Western values.''

Women did not wear Islamic dress out of freedom of choice, Ms Ardati told the Lakemba rally.



''Because to use freedom of choice as a justification, then we are also accepting of women who undress out of this same freedom of choice, and we can never do this as Muslim women. We dress like this because it is the command of Allah, not any man.''

Women had two options, she said. ''The Western secular way of life, which robs a woman of her dignity, honour and respect, where she is considered little more than a commodity to be bought and sold, or the option of Islam, where a woman's dignity, respect and honour are priceless.''

Later she cited high rates of rape and domestic violence and said: ''They are in no position to be lecturing us about oppression and subjugation.'' Ms Ardati was one of five speakers at the rally, held at Parry Park, in reaction to a recent unsuccessful attempt by the NSW MP Fred Nile to introduce a bill banning the burqa.



The Premier, Kristina Keneally's recent statement re-affirming the right of Muslim women to wear the burqa was welcomed but Ms Ardati said the support of key politicians did not mean Muslims could ''relax''.

''Even if this bill is not passed in NSW now, who knows what will happen in one week, one month or one year?'' Ms Ardati said.

There were about 2000 people at the rally, with men and women segregated by a row of plastic markers. Male speakers spoke to the crowd from a podium at the front. The two female speakers spoke from the women's section, meaning most of the men had their backs turned to them.

Sheikh Shady al-Suleiman said Muslims loved Australia but rejected interference in the practice of their religion. ''Keep away from our affairs,'' he said.

Umm Jamaalud-Din said Mr Nile's ''un-Australian'' bill had ''open[ed] the floor to racist elements that exist within Australian society'' who would now feel they could vilify, abuse and possibly assault Muslim women.

''I feel empowered by the knowledge that I am in control of displaying my beauty to whom I choose,'' she said.

''I can move freely throughout society without being subjected to the eyes of every Tom, d!ck and Harry and not be judged on face value but rather for who I am as a person.''

Earlier, organisers had told people not to speak to the media. One woman wearing a burqa said she would have to ask her husband before speaking to the Herald. When asked if she needed her husband's permission to speak, she said: ''We are allowed but we choose not to.''

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/its-unaustralian...l#ixzz1Mx0KUWDu

This post has been edited by chutzpah: May 20 2011, 08:49 PM

[avisitor]

So far, I have found no preaching of "death to the infidels"
or, any movement to take over other countries.
What I have found is some extremist, calling themselves Muslims, go about causing terrible destruction.

It has, however, occurred to me that some people can find what ever it is they are looking for in the Quran.
Misinterpretation abounds in this brave new world that we live in.
And, for their own purpose, take things out of context
Sorry, I am not convince of the "evil" that Islam presents.
Only that there will always be people who go to extremes to prove they are right regardless of the truth.

Again, I liken this to the spread of fear and hate that the Americans had of the Chinese living in California
during the great railroad building years of America. They feared a take over of the country and passed
legislation to protect themselves from the Chinese immigration.

I will not condone any of the anti-Islam rhetoric.
My education about Islam continues ...

[elleX0]

So far, I have found no preaching of "death to the infidels"
or, any movement to take over other countries.
What I have found is some extremist, calling themselves Muslims, go about causing terrible destruction.

It has, however, occurred to me that some people can find what ever it is they are looking for in the Quran.
Misinterpretation abounds in this brave new world that we live in.
And, for their own purpose, take things out of context
Sorry, I am not convince of the "evil" that Islam presents.
Only that there will always be people who go to extremes to prove they are right regardless of the truth.

Again, I liken this to the spread of fear and hate that the Americans had of the Chinese living in California
during the great railroad building years of America. They feared a take over of the country and passed
legislation to protect themselves from the Chinese immigration.

I will not condone any of the anti-Islam rhetoric.
My education about Islam continues ...

avisitor: You will have to decide whether the pictures and messages in this video is fabricated or it did happen. And if did happen, why the hate?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&fea...p;v=kE3AJZ5dVMs
Then avisitor, even if you have some doubts, just assume you are curious to know if there is any truth in those video pictures or anger and hate. Just try to find out if it is a bunch of lies or could there be some truth in it? Then Just go the the Quran and look up all verses relating to "infidel" or " "kafir" or "unbeliever", and look up all verses connected with "jihad" and "jews" and see if there could be any connection?

I will even help you out by providing you this link to:
(1) An Index to the Quran: http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...quranindex.html

(2) Link to the Quran (3 translations):
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/en...s/muslim/quran/

I want you to learn everything yourself, and that is why I have given you all these precious links. Put it into you Bookmarks because they are very special links.

Then you can confirm to your own satisfaction, the authenticity of what I say.
BTW: I am writing a paper on, "No Free Speech in Islam." (Based on the Quran)That I will publish soon.

I hope, avisitor, I will get a reply from you for this post. Do you need any further links on any topics?

This post has been edited by elleX0: May 23 2011, 02:34 AM

[tangawizi]

So, are we proposing that in secularised nations within Europe and the Americas, folks like avisitor should support and vote in right wing political parties to end the platform for multiculturalism? Would that amount to throwing out their non-homogenous populations after stopping the inflow of the immigration of non-homogenous populations?


Isn't France due for election soon and this is one of their political issue? They had a debate recently on secularism to make inroads into the right wing voters. Cameron has already come out to say that multiculturalism is dead in the UK. But what's he proposing in its stead?

In Singapore, we had LKY saying that :

From a Sin Chew Jit Poh report:

“I would say today, we can integrate all religions and races except Islam,” he said in “Lee Kuan Yew: Hard Truths to Keep Singapore Going,” a new book containing his typically frank views on the city-state and its future.

“I think we were progressing very nicely until the surge of Islam came and if you asked me for my observations, the other communities have easier integration — friends, intermarriages and so on…” he stated.
“I think the Muslims socially do not cause any trouble, but they are distinct and separate,” Lee added, calling on the community to “be less strict on Islamic observances.”

A reply from a Sg muslim blogger was published in Berita Harian here. He called upon his fellow malays to look at the prophet's reaction to calls by pagan arabs for less strict observances on islam.
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/node/86

LKY later retracted his statements made in his book. "I stand corrected," he said grudgingly. Even the old man doesn't have a solution to this what do we call "arabization(?)" of malay muslims.

Ellexo likened the killing of Bin Laden to an incisive surgical solution. So what's the incisive surgical solution you have for halting the arabization of muslims in non-muslim secularized nations? Maybe you wanna share your ideas here since you have been actively looking for it in other jihad watch forums?

This post has been edited by tangawizi: May 21 2011, 06:35 AM

[elleX0]

So, are we proposing that in secularised nations within Europe and the Americas, folks like avisitor should support and vote in right wing political parties to end the platform for multiculturalism? Would that amount to throwing out their non-homogenous populations after stopping the inflow of the immigration of non-homogenous populations?


Isn't France due for election soon and this is one of their political issue? They had a debate recently on secularism to make inroads into the right wing voters. Cameron has already come out to say that multiculturalism is dead in the UK. But what's he proposing in its stead?

In Singapore, we had LKY saying that :




The question i have for the jihad watchers like chutzpah and ellexo is this :

"What's the way for muslims to coexist with non-muslims in Singapore and Malaysia? Are we hoping for them to go back to their kampong days when they were not whipped up by the middle-east political ends? And they are happily living out their lives with their wayang kulits and pasar malams?"

Please try to understand the difference between "multiculturalism" and "Multi-ethnicity" or "Multiracial" or we are talking at cross purposes. They are not the same in meaning.

P.S: A nation can be "Multi-racial" and exist in harmony and yet not necessarily "Multicultural."

This post has been edited by elleX0: May 21 2011, 06:57 AM

[tangawizi]

Multiculturalism basically encourages cultural and ethnic diversities as opposed to assimilationist/integrationist policy. It needs a constitutional system to work whereby the ethnic and cultural diversities are respected. that means seeing ethnic representations in the parliaments, the creation of linguistic, educational n religious entities that keep these ethnic diversities alive and thriving.

This policy seemed to work beautifully until last 10 years ago when Al Qaeda exploded into the consciousness of muslims and non-muslims! Now non-muslim marginal leaders (like Geert Wilders) in secular nations where multiculturalism has been practised for decades are afraid of their growing muslim electorate, fearing that they will democratically outvote the non-muslims for policies that augment their ethnic identity and values at the expense of those of non-muslims.

They are looking at this as if it's a Zero-sum game.

Well, I don't think multiculturalism has to become this zero-sum game just because of the influence of Al Qaeda and islamic arabization. I think there is scope for both muslims and non-muslims to achieve a non-zero sum cooperation and attain peaceful co-existence. There are ways and means to do that and we should be looking at that rather than spreading fear and alienation amongst non-muslims against muslims in our countries. Of course, this takes utmost generosity on both sides, muslim and non-muslim.

Communication is the first important thing that can pave the way. Secondly, it's the importance of Trust.

And this can easily start with us, although its easier said than done because words have a tendency to be used as weapons rather than cures.

Just looking at the inability to dialogue between the Israeli-Palestinian leaderships and we see how their mission is basically zero-sum gamemanship. They are so pathetically narrow-minded and self-centered. Netanyahu is so busy coveting his right-wing coalition's thumbs up that he can't be open to talk to the Palestinian authorities for years! And this obstinacy has driven Fatah to seek Hamas as partners to drive the agenda for nationhood. They are both on a zero-sum mission to tit-for-tat. That's just so bloody Abrahamaic (some might say Jewish, but i think Abrahamaic sums it up well)!


I would like to think that our co-existence with muslims are not based on a zero-sum game. I am sure I am not alone in this. We should study game theory and realise that co-operation and reciprocity is the only way to get out of the detente and prejudices in our multicultural societies.

Multiculturalism, as a systematic and comprehensive response to cultural and ethnic diversity, with educational, linguistic, economic and social components and specific institutional mechanisms, has been adopted by Australia and Canada. The Australian multicultural policy is given special attention here for two reasons: firstly, it constitutes an extensive effort to cope democratically with diversity, developed in the very short time-span of two decades, against the earlier, long-standing assimiliationist, and later integrationist, tradition. Secondly, this policy is founded on a civic and contractual definition of citizenship, rather than on ethnic and cultural communitarianism, a feature which is crucial for avoiding conflicts and reconciling diversity with societal cohesion. This means that while ethnic and cultural specificities are respected, they are to be subsumed under the Constitution, the democratic system, the use of a national language (two in the case of Canada) and certain norms, such as individual rights, social equity and gender equality, which prevail in the country. It is only natural that Canada, as the society which devised the term multiculturalism, is also given special attention. Understandably, multiculturalism as one model of a democratic policy response to cultural and ethnic diversity is of interest to UNESCO, in so far as it corresponds to the ideal of a culture of peace, based on respect of diversity, as well as universally shared values and norms. As regards the latter, the Preamble of the Constitution of UNESCO accords a high value to "the intellectual and moral solidarity of mankind", as the basis for domestic and international peace. On diversity, the following words of the French anthropologist, Claude Lévi-Strauss (1952), epitomize the spirit of UNESCO's approach:

" The diversity of cultures is behind us, before us and all around us. The only demand we can make of it .... is that it take forms that each make a contribution to the utmost generosity of other people."

This post has been edited by tangawizi: May 21 2011, 07:08 AM

[elleX0]

I have a feeling you have a very loose and naive definition of words like most people in a multi-language society. Time you pulled your head out of the 19 century into the 21st century.

(1) Merkel says German multicultural society has failed
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451
(2) Why the dogma of multiculturalism has failed Britain

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-39...l#ixzz1N0XVI5lI
(3) Multiculturalism has failed but tolerance can save us
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/c...ticle544921.ece
(4) State multiculturalism has failed, says David Cameron
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994
(5) Why multiculturalism has failed By Yasmin Alibhai-Brown
http://fpc.org.uk/articles/38
(6) Is it Multiculturalism Which Has Failed?
http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/it-multicultura...hich-has-failed
(7) DutchNews.nl - Multiculturalism has failed: Verhagen
http://www.bing.com/search?q=Multicultural...1&FORM=PORE
(8) Multiculturalism has failed
Celebration of separate cultures has led to jihad
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/f...ism-has-failed/

[tangawizi]

You seem good at quoting sources that would support the political platform of the rightwing parties like British National Party and Jean-Marie Le Pen's...

Howabout giving us your opinions what is it you want the Western governments to do about the muslim population? That's what you are driving at all this while... you are chinese, you are not white, so you can safely spell out your SOLUTION without fear... come on gramps... cough it up?

Gates of Vienna has a comprehensive strategy to take back the streets and move their western society back to Monoculturalism or Ethnocentrism. I think that is so zero-sum game plan that leads to race wars.

Imagine, if you have your chinese family still living in Malaysia, the Malaysian government has been attempting to create a "Malaysian race" by 2020 (TheEconomist has an article on this). How do you justify your protest against Malaysia's muslim Monoculturalism/Ethnocentrism on the one hand, while on the other hand, you are egging the Western rightwing movements to check their muslim populations and revert to Monoculturalism/Ethnocentrism?

This post has been edited by tangawizi: May 21 2011, 01:28 PM

[elleX0]

You seem good at quoting sources that would support the political platform of the rightwing parties like British National Party and Jean-Marie Le Pen's...

Howabout giving us your opinions what is it you want the Western governments to do about the muslim population? That's what you are driving at all this while... you are chinese, you are not white, so you can safely spell out your SOLUTION without fear... come on gramps... cough it up?

Gates of Vienna has a comprehensive strategy to take back the streets and move their western society back to Monoculturalism or Ethnocentrism. I think that is so zero-sum game plan that leads to race wars.

Imagine, if you have your chinese family still living in Malaysia, the Malaysian government has been attempting to create a "Malaysian race" by 2020 (TheEconomist has an article on this). How do you justify your protest against Malaysia's muslim Monoculturalism/Ethnocentrism on the one hand, while on the other hand, you are egging the Western rightwing movements to check their muslim populations and revert to Monoculturalism/Ethnocentrism?

*

[chutzpah]

My response in blue

Geert Wilders has called for the banning of the Quran, yet fancies himself a warrior for free speech.

The Saudis and most Islamic states including Bolehland have been BANNING the Bible and yet I don't see you parading your indignation. So do you think it is OK then? But not for Geert Wilders? At least the Muslims can build their mosques in Christian majority countries, but there is no such reciprocities in any of the Islamic countries. Certainly not in any Arab-lands. Even trying to build a church in Bolehland is extremely difficult and would take years... But I guess you have selective amnesia. No brandishing your 'racist' or 'anti' labels when it comes to other faiths, only when it is Islam right?

The profound irony is that you elleXo claim that it infringes on your right to free speech when u are called out for incitement of non-muslims to hate muslims.

No one is inciting hatred or anti Muslims here apart from you, as an exception whose inciting of hatreds towards those who dare to speak up about Islam.

No

In our changing world, your right to free speech is ironically a right to incitement to hate and possibly, violence.

Why do you fail to see how you have fallen so low into the hands of the very religious extremists you so hate yourself?
Oh do spare us your fake morality. Your incitement of hatreds are well known, shall I post them here?

[elleX0]

My response in blue

This video will explain everything:
I don't hate Muslims - I hate Islam by Geert Wilders

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/'i-...9;/937393411001

This post has been edited by elleX0: May 24 2011, 06:38 AM

[tangawizi]

The Saudis and most Islamic states including Bolehland have been BANNING the Bible and yet I don't see you parading your indignation. So do you think it is OK then? But not for Geert Wilders? At least the Muslims can build their mosques in Christian majority countries, but there is no such reciprocities in any of the Islamic countries. Certainly not in any Arab-lands. Even trying to build a church in Bolehland is extremely difficult and would take years... But I guess you have selective amnesia. No brandishing your 'racist' or 'anti' labels when it comes to other faiths, only when it is Islam right?

Two wrongs don't make a right.. you can start a thread about Malaysian government banning the importation of malay bibles that use the term "Allah" instead of "Tahun" or whatever and we can condemn that act as well.

Geert wilder says he bears no hatred against Muslim. Instead of dialoguing against their faith and starting making movies against their Prophet, why don't he be part of the impetus for the reformation of Islam?

[chutzpah]

This video will explain everything:
I don't hate Muslims - I hate Islam by Geert Wilders

http://www.sunnewsnetwork.ca/video/'i-...9;/937393411001

Thanks elleXO for posting the link above. It is a MUST SEE.

Yet another hypocritical response from Tangawizi. She is always quick at despensing advice but never does what she preaches.

If she really subscribes to the notion of two wrongs don't make a right then she should not condemn those who discuss Islam.

Why doesn't she condemn with equal measure on the constant prosecutions of Christians in Ind, MY, Paki, and Mid East? Why doesn't she condemn those who make fun of other faiths? You realise of course that recently she has been making snide remarks about Christians and the Catholic Church in particular. Instead of condemning those who discuss about Islam why doesn't she explain the following:

1. Why there is no reciprocities in the Islamic world when it comes to other faiths? No freedom of religion there, in Saudi you will be arrested for even holding a prayer group in your home. This is a fact told by many of my Filipino friends who work there.

2. Why there are so much murders in the name of Islam and Allah?

3. Why Muslims kill and murder Christians in Egypt and other Arablands, also in IND?

4. Why Islam the so called religion of peace doesn't tolerate anyother faiths?

5. Why Islam doesn't tolerate criticism?

6. Why do Muslims demand Islamic values such as halal eateries and Sharia laws when they migrate to non Islamic countries?

7. Why the need to force conversion of non Muslims such as those who works in Brunei and other Islamic states?

I can list a lot more of WHYs. These are facts, I do not make them up. WHY ????

All these time neither you nor I ever attack nor criticise Muslims or Islam. We only discuss about Islam and present facts to substanbtiate what we say. We do not make fun or insult Islam like the way Tangawizi does on Catholicism which she hasn't the slightest idea about. In short she is a total hypocrite from the start. Time and again she has proven that she is indeed a very nasty piece of work and will always resort to insulting anyone who she happens to disagree with. So much for her 'meditation' tantric or otherwise and her peddling on Daoism/Buddhism and higher self etc, are just empty talk. In fact any self respecting Buddhists should be ashmed to be even associated with her.

Tangawizi's hatred for those who dare to discuss about Islam has even make her insane. She even defends the Taliban for the destruction of those extremely important archeological examples of early Bhuddist art, the Bamiyan Buddhas. She thinks it is ok, because it shows impermanence and dis-attachment, as taught by Buddhism. Yeah right you are Tanga, good try!

To Tangawizi:

You want example of impermanence? Try this, you are aging by the seconds, and it is irreversable, just like the lost due to the willfull and senseless destruction of those Bamiyan Buddhas by Islamists, you are aging as you read this. But will you be as bright and sharp with all your faculties working well when you hit 85? ElleXO is, and why must you always making snide and unflattery remarks about his age? Is it another one of your Buddhist way?

[tangawizi]

if ellexo doesn't like me calling gramps, he can tell me himself.. don't be a side-kick lah?

of course we are all ageing, why do u keep repeating the obvious? is age such a big issue for you too, chutzpah?

what puzzles me is why you two spend all this time talking to non-muslims about the rising danger of islam and its migrants in western communities and countries like Msia?

do u want us to vote for right-wing political parties that advocate the end of halal segregation policies, muslim migrants, muslim ghettoes etc? what is it u would like to see happen with the Qur'an jihad suras? expunged??

So far, neither one of you have come up with personal causes, instead, u guys quote Geert Wilders or Pastor Terry Jones .. and really most folks dismiss these guys as anti-muslim and the courts have indicted them for inciting hatred, many would just ignore them but you two seem spellbound by their messages..

Do you guys have any new messages to share that could be palatable to those of us who don't subscribe to the Wilders and Joneses?

We all know about the extremist atrocities in belligerent regimes like Pakistan/Afghanistan as well as the long standing discriminations in Saudi Arabia.. do you have a good way to make a thinking muslim, be they a student in KL or a bapak in a pondok in Jakarta or a scholar in Cairo change their view about their islamic leaderships other than asking them to subscribe to the Wilders and Joneses of this planet?

Because what Wilders and Joneses advocate doesn't bring peace nor harmony to muslims. They are whipping up anti-muslim sentiments amongst non-muslims. That's not the kinda stuff a muslim in London, Amsterdam, Texas etc would take easily. Even Avisitor, an american living in NYC has come to this conclusion that what they are advocating reminds him of the start of pogroms against the chinese migrants back in the railroad days.


I think a big mistake you guys make is seeing the muslim world as a monolithic bloc. Lumping muslims living in the far east/west/near east with the extremist actions of those living in belligerent regimes or oil-rich sheikh-yer-mammy states. Doesn't help your discussions from getting anywhere.

Ok, i know being an apologetic is something hawks don't like. But I do feel the need to speak up for muslims here because I agree that many have an inability to dialogue with clarity on the identity crisis as muslims today.

Yes, it isn't helpful with the way their religious upbringing stops them from examining their own faith and they cannot question the teachings of their imams. Most of them living in Cairo, Palestine, Tunisia have more critical issues to worry about - like food and jobs and security. Please don't tart them all with the same brush as the fanatics in the belligerent regimes.

You want change, you look into yourself where that change can come from, before you tell others to change. I know chutzpah is gonna deride this as another buddhist peyote talk. But your hawkish stance isn't going to bring about change in the muslim world for sure. Instead, it's heading for more conflict and who knows? pogroms, that's all.

[avisitor]

This video will explain everything:
I don't hate Muslims - I hate Islam by Geert Wilders

Seriously, how can you post that???

Let me put it another way so maybe you can understand my meaning ...

I don't hate you - I hate everything you stand for by I. B. Dummy.

[elleX0]

Seriously, how can you post that???

Let me put it another way so maybe you can understand my meaning ...

I don't hate you - I hate everything you stand for by I. B. Dummy.

avisitor, I thought you wanted to learn more about Islam. Geert Wilders as expressing one European view about Islam which has legitimacy. I am sorry you disapprove of the video, tell us exactly what is it that you find objectionable. Be specific so we can talk about it instead of just condemning it generally.