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To the regular Korean Chat members (non-trolls) read please, Rules and
Jasel
post May 29 2011, 04:21 PM
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For the past several months, maybe as far back as a year, I've notice this section slowly deteriorating. I'm sure plenty of members here have noticed it as well and have their theories and opinions on how and why it's been happening. Basically it doesn't matter because nothing has happened in this section that hasn't happened in the majority of sections that I've modded. Cultural or otherwise.

I moderate 15 different sections and I'd say at least 85 - 90% of the reports I get are from this one. That doesn't necessarily mean that this section is the only one that has it's problems. There are a couple of others where the members there make no reports despite rampant flaming, trolling, racism, etc. But I've noticed a pattern with this section which has been extremely annoying and I'm completely fed up with it.

Regular members quoting, provoking, responding, and arguing with trolls, especially blatant trolls, and then taking the time to report it. I've lost count of how many reports I've gotten from members in this section only to link to the complaint and find that the reporter has spent the last 2 or 3 pages arguing with or outright flaming the individual they're making reports about. This is not helping and it seems to be getting even worse.

It shouldn't take a genius to figure out that the main reason that trolls come to this section is because they want attention and they like pissing off people who get overly sensitive off of what they read on the internet. If you see someone is trolling, then ignore them and report it. Don't give them the attention that they want. So I'm going to give fair warning for what's going to happen from now on when I get reports and see members engaging in that behavior or just see members engaging in that behavior on their own:

1. If I see members here quoting, provoking, responding, and arguing with trolls they're going to get warnings and will eventually be temp banned if they keep it up. This doesn't mean that every time someone argues with some ambiguous troll and realizes it later they'll be warned off the bat. But it's pretty obvious when someone comes here, has 10 posts, and all of them are basically anti-Korean/inflammatory you need to just ignore that person. Believe me I've been doing this long enough where I can tell if someone is just making things worse or just doesn't know a person is a troll.

2. If I see members outright flaming individuals because they don't agree with them they're going get warnings and will eventually be temp banned if they keep it up. I'm tired of getting reports from individuals who complain about flaming and trolling only to see them doing the exact same thing. Especially with trolls who are just provoked even further.

3. If I see members responding to racist/nationalistic/anti-Korean trolls with their own brand of racist/anti-whatever rhetoric they're going to get warnings and will eventually be temp banned if they keep it up. If the only way you feel you can defend or take pride in your race, ethnicity, or whatever is by degrading and attacking the race/ethnicity of an individual who slighted you then you might want to question how strong that pride really is. Regardless if you see someone exhibiting any of that type of behavior I suggest you swallow your pride, ignore the individual, and report them. Just because this is the "Korean Chat" doesn't mean it's some sort of free for all to bash whoever you want if you're Korean. There are forum guidelines and members in this section have to follow them like everyone else.

4. No anti-white/gypos commentary. This has been bad for awhile, especially the former. And I take partial blame for this because it's been so rampant in this section for so long that for the most part I've just ignored it unless someone directly complained. Not anymore. If you want to talk/complain about ESL teachers or Asiaphillia fine. But keep the racist generalizations out of it. I've seen enough people in this section get up in arms over what some nobody from Dave's ESL says regarding Koreans and at the same time act as if it's their god given right to say whatever racist comments they want about whites.

Now here are some things I do NOT want reports about:

1. Do not make reports about foul language. Unless someone is flaming or is a troll who does nothing except swear at individuals I really don't care. I'm sure most of us here went to high school and college. If you could deal with foul language there without telling the teacher every time someone said something you wouldn't say to your grandparents, you can deal with it on an online discussion forum.

2. Do not make reports because someone disagrees with your opinion about history. I'd say most of the flaming/trolling that goes on in this section, and a few other cultural sections, stems from individuals having different, or just outright contradictory, point of views regarding history. Deal with it. I've been a moderator on this forum for over 3 years now and have seen dozens if not hundreds of arguments over history, geopolitics, warfare, inventions, etc and so on. And I can count on one hand the number of times I've actually seen an individual say "Hmm. I guess maybe I was wrong about that. Nevermind." The number is actually 0 but I'm going to assume someone here has seen it at least once since some members spend a majority of their time arguing and doing nothing else. If someone doesn't agree with you the first time you say something, you can post all the sources in the world, link all the maps you can find, waste as much time on them as you want and 99% of the time you're not going to be changing any minds. If it gets to the point where you're sick and tired of what a member is saying or posting, there's an ignore feature which many members are more than welcome to start taking advantage of.

3. Do not report the same troll 2, 3, or 4 times for the same thing in the same day. If there's a guy who obviously needs to be banned, report him once as a troll, I'll go through his post history to see if it warrants being banned and that will be the end of it. Making multiple reports for the same account, for pretty much the same thing, and on the same day isn't going to do anything except give me MORE reports to read through and waste my time.

Here are some things I would LIKE to see more reports of:

1. If you see someone with less than 20 posts who has been a member for a couple of days, if that, and is basically pissing people off or being inflammatory report them. DO NOT RESPOND, FLAME, OR QUOTE THEM (see consequences above)

2. If you see someone you THINK is a troll *and you have an ex/banned member you think they might be* report them and include all their possible aliases so I can check against IPs. There are more individuals who troll this section than people think even taking proxys into account.

3. If you see a regular Korean Chat member breaking the general rules or some of the rules I mentioned above REPORT THEM!! I don't expect this one to be that popular or that widely used but keep in mind that there are members here who are not trolls and they cause problems, break the rules, and generally make things worse just the same. If you see a member engaging in racist, inflammatory, etc behavior keep in mind reporting is completely anonymous and no one knows who's made reports except the mods in that section (or the members who publicly acknowledge they've reported an individual anyway).


That's pretty much it. If I can think of anything else I'll add it later and feel free to give your opinions. I know a lot of people won't be happy about it but this section is extremely pathetic compared to how it was when I first joined back in Jun 04. And don't think this means that I'll be any lighter on trolls than I have been. The point is to stop trolls altogether, or at least slow down the amount who seem to be engaging in it on a daily basis, by not giving them a reason to come back. Unfortunately a lot of members in this section, even the well intentioned ones, are not helping with that and are making a bad situation worse. I might bump this topic every now and then to make sure it doesn't slip through the cracks but eventually I'm going to try to get Ben's permission to pen it. If anyone has any suggestions also I'm open to those always.


I'd also like to add that more often than not I don't announce when I've warned or banned or someone. If you've reported someone and haven't seen a mod say that they've been warned or banned, don't assume nothing has been done. I'd say maybe about 10 - 20% of the time some of the reports I've gotten I found weren't worth a warning, ban, or topic close but the other 80 - 90% of the time one of those three things happens. And even then that doesn't mean another mod won't do something where I didn't. I usually only announce that someone has been warned, banned, or why a topic has been closed if I have gotten multiple complaints about a situation and want everyone to know they can stop reporting, that a topic was requested to be closed, or if I close a topic where the reason might not be so obvious. Regardless of whether action is taken or not, if a report is made I'll have read it.


I made this post back in 07 but I guess it was eventually deleted because I wasn't around as much when I was in nursing school. Same rules apply, just wanted to keep people in the loop as to how they can help keep this section clean, since it's always been one of my favorites. I won't be throwing out as many warnings to the regular members as I said I would 4 years ago. Forum population isn't high enough for it. Just please if you see someone troll baiting Koreans try to swallow your pride, report them, and wait.
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Chan-Ho
post May 29 2011, 04:25 PM
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Thanks Jasel, you've been doing some excellent work here. =)

I know I have a tendency to follow other members off-topic, but this is AF, going off-topic is a fundamental aspect of this forum. It keeps activity going.

This post has been edited by Chan-Ho: May 29 2011, 04:27 PM
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ReindeerGirl
post May 29 2011, 04:34 PM
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understood! thanks for your hard work~
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samnang
post May 29 2011, 04:42 PM
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why not appoint new mods?

are sane and rational active members too few on this forum?
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Jasel
post May 29 2011, 04:53 PM
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QUOTE (Chan-Ho @ May 29 2011, 05:25 PM) *
Thanks Jasel, you've been doing some excellent work here. =)

I know I have a tendency to follow other members off-topic, but this is AF, going off-topic is a fundamental aspect of this forum. It keeps activity going.


Thanks

QUOTE (ReindeerGirl @ May 29 2011, 05:34 PM) *
understood! thanks for your hard work~


Thank you

QUOTE (samnang @ May 29 2011, 05:42 PM) *
why not appoint new mods?

are sane and rational active members too few on this forum?


I don't think Ben is around too much. He either has other stuff on his plate or is busy. I haven't talked to him in awhile.

I don't even think the forum really needs new mods because the active member population isn't as high as it used to be.

But I'll be more active than I've been the past few years so this section will have some steady moderation at least. I can't speak for the others outside of the Lounge and the ones I'm assigned to.
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SantaKlaws
post May 29 2011, 05:34 PM
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So how do you distinguish between racist/nationalistic/anti-Korean trolls and someone you simply have a disagreement with? You've set some standards on the matter, most notably history, but fundamental disagreememts over these issues have now expanded to more tangible sunbects like politics and specific policies. Goguryeo is hardly mentioned anymore, but there are still members, who have made a regular presence here in the absence of moderation, criticize Koreans policies in various aspects, particularly for siding with the US instead of China. Many of them also outright praise North Korea for the same reasons they bash South Korea. This is the most prominent source of conflict in these parts, and if nothing is done about this, I find it doubtful there could be any improvements. I would appreciate it if you take some time to address this matter, thanks.
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devils666
post May 29 2011, 05:57 PM
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I agree with most of what Jasel is saying and apologize for reporting the same person multiple times (sorry, I didn't know the protocol).

I think there should also be more sensitivity towards non-Korean and non-White groups as well. For example, there are many flaming and derogatory threads aimed at China and Chinese people. Certain members are constantly bringing up flaim bait topics about China just to instill hatred and chaos even when no one mentioned China. Why is it Ok to attack China yet no one can criticize the west? Also, I've seen negative comments about Blacks, Arabs, Hispanics, and SE Asians on Korean chat.

I think it is quite narrow-minded to only point out those to criticize the West, yet no one cares if other Asians or races are being targeted. I have stumbled upon K-chat as a spectator for a while and noticed A LOT of defamatory threads about Chinese people or China. And I don't blame the Chinese members for defending themselves when being attacked. I also don't blame the Korean members for defending themselves when being attacked in C-chat either.

This post has been edited by devils666: May 29 2011, 05:58 PM
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SantaKlaws
post May 29 2011, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (devils666 @ May 30 2011, 07:57 AM) *
I agree with most of what Jasel is saying and apologize for reporting the same person multiple times (sorry, I didn't know the protocol).

I think there should also be more sensitivity towards non-Korean and non-White groups as well. For example, there are many flaming and derogatory threads aimed at China and Chinese people. Certain members are constantly bringing up flaim bait topics about China just to instill hatred and chaos even when no one mentioned China. Why is it Ok to attack China yet no one can criticize the west? Also, I've seen negative comments about Blacks, Arabs, Hispanics, and SE Asians on Korean chat.

I think it is quite narrow-minded to only point out those to criticize the West, yet no one cares if other Asians or races are being targeted. I have stumbled upon K-chat as a spectator for a while and noticed A LOT of defamatory threads about Chinese people or China. And I don't blame the Chinese members for defending themselves when being attacked. I also don't blame the Korean members for defending themselves when being attacked in C-chat either.


Criticisms of China here are usually brought up as legitimate issues in Korea. They are serious issues here, widely reported, widely known, and Koreans are concerned. You should blame China itself for causing so much troubles here. Don't blame us for discussing these issues. As for the West vs. Asia antagonism, this framework of understanding the world has been fabricated by Chinese nationalists in their futile attempt to somehow pull Koreans into a Sinocentric racial "ingroup", while pushing others away, usually on a racist basis. Their concerns are usually out of context, hypothetical and non-substantial, as far as Korea and Koreans are concerned.

This post has been edited by SantaKlaws: May 29 2011, 06:18 PM
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Jasel
post May 29 2011, 06:17 PM
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QUOTE (SantaKlaws @ May 29 2011, 06:34 PM) *
So how do you distinguish between racist/nationalistic/anti-Korean trolls and someone you simply have a disagreement with? You've set some standards on the matter, most notably history, but fundamental disagreememts over these issues have now expanded to more tangible sunbects like politics and specific policies. Goguryeo is hardly mentioned anymore, but there are still members, who have made a regular presence here in the absence of moderation, criticize Koreans policies in various aspects, particularly for siding with the US instead of China. Many of them also outright praise North Korea for the same reasons they bash South Korea. This is the most prominent source of conflict in these parts, and if nothing is done about this, I find it doubtful there could be any improvements. I would appreciate it if you take some time to address this matter, thanks.



I really don't mind spirited debate. I'm not going to pretend that I completely understand South/North Korean issues/histories/genetics or other popular subjects that people here like to discuss here. The only thing I ask is that people try to keep it civil. You can disagree without being disagreeable. Don't say something you wouldn't be willing to say to someone's face in a more intimate setting. It will be a case by case basis.

But I would ask that people try to recognize that if a debate/discussion/argument/whatever is obviously going nowhere that they just walk away from it. Like I said 4 years ago, I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone admit they were actually wrong regarding some political/historical opinion or fact and simply end the discussion. It just doesn't happen. And that's not just unique to the Korean section.

I'd like for people to ask themselves if a certain individual is even worth engaging period. Believe me I know how irritating it is when you feel like your race/ethnicity/country is being trashed anonymously on the internet by some @$$hole who doesn't know what the fu-k he's talking about but thinks he knows everything there is to know about you and your peoeple. One thing I've learned moderating this site for the past 7 years is that the worst thing you can do is give them anymore attention than they deserve.

So like I said I'm not going to be giving warnings for members who engage in flamebait like I did 4 years ago. I don't want to discourage regulars from posting. But I'd ask that you make a report and try not to respond to anything you feel is flame bait.

It's not going to be perfect but I'll do what I can.
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devils666
post May 29 2011, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (SantaKlaws @ May 29 2011, 06:17 PM) *
Criticisms of China here are usually brought up as legitimate issues in Korea. They are serious issues here, widely reported, widely known, and Koreans are concerned. You should blame China itself for causing so much troubles here. Don't blame us for discussing these issues. As for the West vs. Asia antagonism, this framework of understanding the world has been fabricated by Chinese nationalists in their futile attempt to somehow pull Koreans into a Sinocentric racial "ingroup", while pushing others away, usually on a racist basis. Their concerns are usually out of context, hypothetical and non-substantial, as far as Korea and Koreans are concerned.


So then you are excusing your blatant attack on China and Chinese people?

Why are there hardly ANY threads related to Korea on C-Chat then?

Don't bring your biased theories as an excuse to BLAME ALL KOREAN PROBLEMS ON CHINA. Yet, any criticism of the west is considering "trolling".

I will take Jasel's advice and ignore you from now on - it's obvious you are just a troll with a loooong history.

This post has been edited by devils666: May 29 2011, 06:27 PM
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Chan-Ho
post May 29 2011, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE (Jasel @ May 29 2011, 04:17 PM) *
I really don't mind spirited debate. I'm not going to pretend that I completely understand South/North Korean issues/histories/genetics or other popular subjects that people here like to discuss here. The only thing I ask is that people try to keep it civil. You can disagree without being disagreeable. Don't say something you wouldn't be willing to say to someone's face in a more intimate setting. It will be a case by case basis.

But I would ask that people try to recognize that if a debate/discussion/argument/whatever is obviously going nowhere that they just walk away from it. Like I said 4 years ago, I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone admit they were actually wrong regarding some political/historical opinion or fact and simply end the discussion. It just doesn't happen. And that's not just unique to the Korean section.

I'd like for people to ask themselves if a certain individual is even worth engaging period. Believe me I know how irritating it is when you feel like your race/ethnicity/country is being trashed anonymously on the internet by some @$$hole who doesn't know what the fu-k he's talking about but thinks he knows everything there is to know about you and your peoeple. One thing I've learned moderating this site for the past 7 years is that the worst thing you can do is give them anymore attention than they deserve.

So like I said I'm not going to be giving warnings for members who engage in flamebait like I did 4 years ago. I don't want to discourage regulars from posting. But I'd ask that you make a report and try not to respond to anything you feel is flame bait.

It's not going to be perfect but I'll do what I can.


Sounds reasonable enough. Thanks bro.


QUOTE (SantaKlaws @ May 29 2011, 04:17 PM) *
Criticisms of China here are usually brought up as legitimate issues in Korea. They are serious issues here, widely reported, widely known, and Koreans are concerned. You should blame China itself for causing so much troubles here. Don't blame us for discussing these issues. As for the West vs. Asia antagonism, this framework of understanding the world has been fabricated by Chinese nationalists in their futile attempt to somehow pull Koreans into a Sinocentric racial "ingroup", while pushing others away, usually on a racist basis. Their concerns are usually out of context, hypothetical and non-substantial, as far as Korea and Koreans are concerned.


I wish I could write in words like this. But I make that point in my own way.

This post has been edited by Chan-Ho: May 29 2011, 06:41 PM
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devils666
post May 29 2011, 06:49 PM
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[size=5][/size]
QUOTE (Chan-Ho @ May 29 2011, 06:26 PM) *
Sounds reasonable enough. Thanks bro.




I wish I could write in words like this. But I make that point in my own way.


I think trolling would be greatly improved if members like you and SantaKlaws didn't constantly scapegoat China in every thread. Maybe instead of blaming your neighbor, you should look within Korea and your allies.

YOU and others have single-handedly turned K-chat into anti C-Chat. You have no one else to blame but yourselves for bringing up flamebait topics.

http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=269169

If you have nothing good to say, don't say it at all. I never see attacks on Korea in C-chat.



This post has been edited by devils666: May 29 2011, 06:50 PM
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Captain Corea
post May 29 2011, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (devils666 @ May 30 2011, 07:57 AM) *
For example, there are many flaming and derogatory threads aimed at China and Chinese people.


Criticising a country's policies is one thing, attacking its people another. I am often critical of China and North Korea. Rarely though will you ever see me type 'Chinese this or that'. I have no doubt that the Chinese people have a wide variety of thoughts and opinions... so it's far better for me to focus on specific actions of the government that i disagree with. This applies also to the US and any other country.

There's also something to be said for wording. So many trolls come in here with drive-by racial insults. I hope they get auto-bans.
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devils666
post May 29 2011, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (Captain Corea @ May 29 2011, 06:56 PM) *
Criticising a country's policies is one thing, attacking its people another. I am often critical of China and North Korea. Rarely though will you ever see me type 'Chinese this or that'. I have no doubt that the Chinese people have a wide variety of thoughts and opinions... so it's far better for me to focus on specific actions of the government that i disagree with. This applies also to the US and any other country.

There's also something to be said for wording. So many trolls come in here with drive-by racial insults. I hope they get auto-bans.


You yourself created a thread promoting "yellow peril" about China hypothetically taking over N. Korea. icon_redface.gif

Chan-Ho and SantaKlaws feel the need to bring up derogatory comments about China ALL THE TIME. It's expected that Chinese members will defend themselves.
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Jasel
post May 29 2011, 07:00 PM
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I'd also like to emphasize the "Ignore" feature. If there's a member you don't get a long with or whose posts tend to bother you all you have to is go to the member's profile, click on the options tab, and block the user.
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devils666
post May 29 2011, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Jasel @ May 29 2011, 07:00 PM) *
I'd also like to emphasize the "Ignore" feature. If there's a member you don't get a long with or whose posts tend to bother you all you have to is go to the member's profile, click on the options tab, and block the user.


Thank you for pointing that out. I did not know that. I do think that Chan-Ho and Santaklaws have been getting free passes on trolling. They are the biggest flamebaiters in AF and deserve the same treatment as everyone else.
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Captain Corea
post May 29 2011, 07:08 PM
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QUOTE (devils666 @ May 30 2011, 08:59 AM) *
You yourself created a thread promoting "yellow peril" about China hypothetically taking over N. Korea. icon_redface.gif


I think this is a perfect example of what Jasel is NOT talking about. My thread was about the (eventual) fall of the DPRK and a recently released report about China's plans for it. The US and SK both have similar plans that have been discussed on this forum before. There was nothing said by me racially or otherwise towards the Chinese people in that thread. I was simply discussing China's possible plans on the peninsula.

You're not going to be able to get the word 'China' banned from this subsection of the forum. Sorry, man. It doesn't work that way.
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devils666
post May 29 2011, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (Captain Corea @ May 29 2011, 07:08 PM) *
I think this is a perfect example of what Jasel is NOT talking about. My thread was about the (eventual) fall of the DPRK and a recently released report about China's plans for it. The US and SK both have similar plans that have been discussed on this forum before. There was nothing said by me racially or otherwise towards the Chinese people in that thread. I was simply discussing China's possible plans on the peninsula.

You're not going to be able to get the word 'China' banned from this subsection of the forum. Sorry, man. It doesn't work that way.


It doesn't matter matter what the supposed issue of your thread was. The point is that you created a very sensitive flambait topic that was aimed at antagonizing a specific country/ethnicity. Futhermore, it was unsubstantiated and more of an opinion piece. There was an obvious agenda.

Actually it would cut down on trolling tremendously if K-chat banned the word "China" or discussing of China altogether.

This post has been edited by devils666: May 29 2011, 07:12 PM
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WideAwake
post May 29 2011, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (devils666 @ May 29 2011, 07:03 PM) *
Thank you for pointing that out. I did not know that. I do think that Chan-Ho and Santaklaws have been getting free passes on trolling. They are the biggest flamebaiters in AF and deserve the same treatment as everyone else.


A complete joke.

This post has been edited by WideAwake: May 29 2011, 07:13 PM
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Captain Corea
post May 29 2011, 07:14 PM
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QUOTE (devils666 @ May 30 2011, 09:12 AM) *
Actually it would cut down on trolling tremendously if K-chat banned the word "China" or discussing of China altogether.


Sorry, man, but your demands are out to lunch. Something like this would never happen.
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