Three Purities 三清: Kev Txwj Laus (Taoism), Laozi, influences on the Hmong culture Options

[qaib]

I'm not a fan of Buddha or Confucius, but I like this jpg.


Taoism divided into two sects: the Taoism of Great Peace and the Taoism of Five Bushels of Rice, but only the Taoism of Five Bushels of Rice has been handed down, as the Taoism of Great Peace was later forbidden by the feudal rulers. Zhang DaoLing, known as Heavenly Teacher Zhang, founded the Taoism of Five Bushels of Rice and is considered the founder of today’s Taoism.



Hmong Taoism is quite different from Chinese Taoism, but both are very similar. Personally, I think the Hmong may have follow the other form of Taoism: The Great Peace.

Taipingjing(Classic of Great Peace), also called asTaiping Qingling Shu(Black Scarf Book of Supreme Peace), is one of the most important canons of Taoism. It is said that this canon was handed down from Taoist Yu Ji of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25-220).

The contents of Taiping Jing concentrate on the following four aspects:

I. It inherits the Tao of Laozi, the founder of Taoism,and the traditional deity religion, reconstructs the system of the early Taoist doctrine of Human and Nature in Harmony, and put forward the concepts of immortal supernatural being, deity in body and pursuit of longevity.

II. Based on the theory of five elements, it puts forward a set of ruling methods for rulers to control the country, regarding by doing nothing everything will be done as the guideline for running a country.

III. As to the cultivation methods of Taoist disciples, the canon advocates refraining from eating grain, living onqi(vital energy), taking medicines, cultivating the nature, returning from deity, acupuncture, auspice, geomantic omen, taboo and so on. At the same time, it also pays attention to Taoist magic figures or incantations, saying that eating incantations can get rid of evils, acquire blessing, treat diseases and make people live forever. It requires disciples to keep fast, bow in solute, pray, offer a sacrifice, exorcise evils, chant canon and so on.

IV. The canon puts forward the retribution theory based on benefaction and immoral conducts. It is said that if a person does many kinds of evil, the heaven will bring disasters to him/her or his/her later generations. Thus, the canon seriously advises common people to do good deeds. The believing and cultivation of correct Tao may help one eliminate the burdens and become supernatural being.

[Rayzor]

Laozi was born in Quren Li, Ku county in the state of Chu

This contradict with the other wikipedia link, anyway, doesn't matter because Quren Li, Ku county in the state of Chu is today Luyi Country, Henan province which is located in northern China(sino-tibetan), so my theory is still correct. Henan province is above Yangtze river which mean Laozi is from northern China(sino-tibetan). It clearly stated in the video. There are no Miao/Hmong people in Henan province.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e01CQpyi5E8



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henan

I also don't think he is yue since yue is peoples who inhabited southern China while Laozi is from northern China.

The Baiyue (Chinese: 百越; pinyin: bǎiyuè), Hundred Yue or Yue (越) is a loose term denoting various partly sinicized or un-sinicized peoples who inhabited southern China and northern Vietnam between the first millennium BC and the first millennium AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baiyue

Also, did you observe the map in your signature. It clearly said people who speak sino-tibetan language(Chinese linguists), in other words the ancestors of today Han Chinese are from northern China and already been there ever since early Neolithic long time even before Xia/Shang dynasty exist. The geographic location is same or close to Henan province. The sino-tibetan later migrate to different location in China including Henan as suggested by the arrow in the map while Hmong only migrate south towards south east asia.


Therefore, whether ''Han identity'' was established after the establishment of CCP or not doesn't matter anymore because the linguist identity, writings or maybe even culture and others already exist back then. The people who inherit sino-tibetan languages, writings, cultures in modern day are definitely their descendant, which is the Han Chinese. I believe the map originated from western scholar right? If that is the case then the sino-tibetan group they are talking about are mostly refer to the Chinese linguists.

The Sino-Tibetan language family has also been defined, principally among some Chinese linguists, as including the Tai and Hmong-Mien languages. In the past, Vietnamese and other Mon-Khmer languages were classified under the Sino-Tibetan tree; however, their similarities to Chinese are currently credited to language contact. In the Western scholarly community, the other tonal language families of East Asia, Tai-Kadai languages and Hmong-Mien (Miao-Yao), are no longer classified under the Sino-Tibetan tree either, with the similarities attributed to borrowings and areal features, especially since Benedict (1972). In the Chinese scholarly community, Tai-Kadai (actually Zhuang-Dong or Kam-Tai, which excludes i.a. the Kra languages) and Hmong-Mien have commonly been included in the Sino-Tibetan family.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Tibetan_...language_family

Omg, the Hmong in Hunan are Taoists and the rest of the other Hmong throughout southwest China practice forms of Taoism.
Do I care what ethnicity is Laozi? No. He enlightened me and that's all I care. You don't know us. LOL You went back to dig a thread that has nothing to do with this thread. Do you not see
that the Hmong religion has Taoist elements just like how there are Mahayana, Theravada, Tibetan Buddhism? idiot.

I never say they are not Taoist. Beside, you the one who reply to me first when I said Laozi are ethnically Han Chinese since he is categorized as Han Chinese. Calling people idiot when you cannot refute me does not prove anything, instead it just shows how ignorant you really are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese

You the one who keep replying to me regarding Laozi ethnicity. Anyway, since you got problem with him being Han Chinese, this time I will categorized him under linguists point of view which is sino-tibetan, who I believe are the ancestors of modern day Han Chinese(personally, I still consider Laozi as Han Chinese).You said you don't care about Laozi ethnicity, but if you still got problem with this, then you are contradict with yourself.


By the way, qaib, there is something I need to ask you. Has the original Tao Te Ching been found? Because at part 2 of the video, it says Laozi finish his work, put down his brush and left us with Tao Te Ching.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv1KQxwC1lo

Then we saw something that look like a book cover with Chinese characters on it. Is that the original Tao Te Ching written by him? If yes then Laozi are obviously Chinese or at least this suggest Laozi are culturally Chinese or speak Sino-Tibetan/Chinese language.

You believe Han chinese were the majority of ancient time? The Han ethnic is composed of various ethnic groups and it is well known. The concept of "Han identity" was established after
the establishment of CCP. Many ethnic groups became Han to avoid being persecuted. Many ethnic groups assimilated like the Manchu and so forth. You would probably think famous Chinese opera singer is not Hmong.

Not really. See the yhaplogroup below yourself.



As you can see, northern Han and southern Han share a very similar yhaplogroup. This shows that all individuals that identify themselves as Han Chinese share similar ancestors(sino-tibetan). Like I said, it doesn't matter when the ''Han Chinese'' identity is created because in the end, all Han Chinese share similar ancestors, as well as culture, languages, and writings ever since ancient time. The identity is already there since ancient China,so once again, I have a point when I said Han Chinese are the majority since ancient time just like today present time. It just that the words Han Chinese is not specifically given. Your theory many ethnic groups became Han to avoid being persecuted is not quite wrong. As for Manchu, I'm not sure about them but one thing for sure is that they do not share similar yhaplogroup with the Han Chinese. So, if they really assimilated themselves, then we should have found Manchu yhaplogroup inside Han Chinese, but so far it never happen. Many people who said ''Han Chinese composed of various ethnic group'', ''There is no Han Chinese identity'', or stuff like that are being ignorant and obviously never done scientific research on genetics. Not happy with what I said, I hope you can address my posts. Calling people stupid when you cannot refute does not prove anything at all and it just shows how ignorant you are.

I also want to add that almost all archaeology evidence about Laozi's teaching, Taoism are written in Chinese characters.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawangdui_Silk_Texts

Clearly, Taosim is being integrated inside Han Chinese culture more than Miao/Hmong. Why is that?It because Laozi highly associate himself and socialize with Han Chinese/Huaxia people a lot. The reason could be because he himself is Han Chinese/Huaxia people. They are able to communicate and understand each other with their own language. Therefore, his teaching are being able to be recorded in Chinese characters/language.



Laozi was born in northern China, Henan province. Most of this theory about Miao/Hmong migrate from north seems to be related or revolve around Chi You and Battle of Zhuolu.
However, if Huang Di and Chi You never exist, then all the theory about Miao/Hmong migrate from north to south is not real which means the people living in northern China such as of Henan, including Laozi who born there are not related to Miao/Hmong at all. In other words, Miao/Hmong never set their been to northern China before during ancient time. Instead,the people of northern China including Laozi himself are Han Chinese.

This post has been edited by Rayzor: Nov 24 2011, 11:25 PM

[KojTusMeHavnim]

The person who claims to be tolerant, neutral, etc.... You sure are. You sure are!

[lilasiankid]

The person who claims to be tolerant, neutral, etc.... You sure are. You sure are!

He should be more like me...Unwilling to engage in intelligent debate.

[qaib]

The person who claims to be tolerant, neutral, etc.... You sure are. You sure are!

No longer the nice person I was before.

If you're stupid, I will say it.

I was only nice because I thought people would be open-minded and tolerance like me, but
I realized there are too many idiots out there.

Laozi, the purity and the wise one.


This post has been edited by qaib: Jul 7 2011, 02:51 PM

[lluk]

Laozi was a Yue person from the Chu state. He later was invited by the Qin King to his kingdom. He rode on a water buffalo up northwest to Qin. His surname was Li, and the Tang Emperors had claimed him as an ancestor and made Daoism a state religion in the early years.

[ElapsePride]

Laozi was a Yue person from the Chu state. He later was invited by the Qin King to his kingdom. He rode on a water buffalo up northwest to Qin. His surname was Li, and the Tang Emperors had claimed him as an ancestor and made Daoism a state religion in the early years.

No , he was not Yue.

[lluk]

He rides a water buffalo. He came from a region where rice was grown (whatever his true ethnic affiliations). People need to realize all Sino-Tibetans started out in the southern (ie more humid, wet regions of Asia) before they spread out.

[mythicalhealer]

^

yes..

Ye means Grandpa in Hmong. Shao means above.

Ye Shao is a deity in the Hmong culture. Often known as the supreme god/grandpa from above that loves and shows compassion.....

Yawm Saub does not translate as grandpa from above. The word is "saub" not "saum". Saub means wise/mystical/oracle if it were to stand alone. The word isn't "saub" alone and it being "yawm saub"...this translates as "one who is mystical or an oracle". Yawm in this sense means "one who is" to denote a male..."poj" would denote one who is/female. It is not grandpa. Grandpa is "yawg". But you have to realize these terms do not stand alone and are not literal. Please do not translate each individual piece on it's own because when you do that, you lose the meaning. Hmong doesn't work like English where the vocabulary is extensively large. Hmong words are a collection of sounds and sound parts that may mean one thing when it stands alone, but denotes a different meaning when use in combination with another "word or sound".

For instance, "yawg laus" means an old man....alone, "yawg" means grandpa and "laus" means old. The word doesn' t mean "old grandpa" but if you translate it literally, that is what you get. Therefore, you need to know the meaning of these terms and not translate it literally...the meaning will get lost if you do that.

[mythicalhealer]

You have to be very superstitious to believe someone is watching you from above.How many religions are there in hmong culture?I saw the other thread about shaman,does it have anything to do with manchurian shamanism?

IF you stand by your statement, then I guess everyone in the world is "very superstitious" as they believe God is everywhere and sees their sins and will judge them...especially Christians.

[Rayzor]

Does Taoism really originated from Laozi? Well, it depend on whether you believe on the existence of Huang Di or not. In China, Chinese Taoist consider Huang Di founded Taoism and formulated many of its precepts. If you believe in the existence of Huang Di and Chi You like those Chinese Taoist, then it was Huang Di that create Taosim. If you do not believe in the existence of Huang Di like western scholar, then Laozi is the most realistic answer for you.Western scholar obviously consider Laozi founded Taoism as they do not believe in Huang Di and Chi You.

The Yellow Emperor was credited with an enormous number of cultural legacies and esoteric teachings. While Taoism is often regarded in the West as arising from Laozi, Chinese Taoists claim the Yellow Emperor formulated many of their precepts.[60] In addition the texts mentioned above, he was also credited with composing the Four Classics of the Yellow Emperor,[61] the Yellow Emperor's Hidden Talisman Classic,[61] and the "Yellow Emperor's Four Seasons Poem" included in the Tung Shing fortune-telling almanac.[60] The Yellow Emperor's Inner Canon, which presents the doctrinal basis of traditional Chinese medicine, was also named after him.[62]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_Empero...ietal_influence

According to popular traditional biographies, he worked as the Keeper of the Archives for the royal court of Zhou. This reportedly allowed him broad access to the works of the Yellow Emperor and other classics of the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laozi#Historical_views

If you consider Chi You exist, then Huang Di also exist. If Huang Di exist, then Taoism is originally founded and formulated by Huang Di and Han Chinese/Huaxia and later on spread to Miao/Hmong and other ethnics. Anyway, just saying. Would like to know how people who strongly believe in the existence of Chi You and Huang Di feel about this.

He rides a water buffalo. He came from a region where rice was grown (whatever his true ethnic affiliations). People need to realize all Sino-Tibetans started out in the southern (ie more humid, wet regions of Asia) before they spread out.

Sino-Tibetan started out at the northern China, yellow river before they spread out not south.



This post has been edited by Rayzor: Nov 26 2011, 10:10 PM

[souphounavong]

Yawm Saub

Yawm (Ye) - grandpa
Saub (Shao) - above

basically means "grandpa from above."

Known as a wise elderly man in the Hmong culture, who teaches people to love, do the right things, respect, harmony and peace. Respect nature, respect animals, respect your environment.....

"Yawm" could be a classifier for male deity or being' "Yawm" is a classifier derived from a tone shift of "yawg", which means grandpa. "saub" could translate as "fortune teller" but usually when used together in context, "Yawm saub" is usually the ruler of the sky and almighty.


Yep, totally agreed with mythicalhealer. You Hmong-centric folks fabricate too much bs.

This post has been edited by souphounavong: Nov 25 2011, 01:44 AM

[LoveNStrife]

I'm not Hmong, although I have Shezu ancestry (closely related to Yao/Mien, distantly related to Hmong).

Just to clarify, Laozi is not born in Henan. He was born in Hunan, e.g. the Kingdom of Chu. The Kingdom of Chu is generally thought to have strong Miao components.

Furthermore, it is true that during the Warring States, Daoism was associated with the South (the Kingdom of Chu, in particular), whereas Confucianism was associated with the North (the Dukedom of Lu, in particular).

It is also true that many Southern minority nationalities (such as Shezu) practise Daoism. Of course, it may be that they converted to Daoism after coming into contact with Han culture. (Or more likely, they repackaged their original beliefs as Daoism. The thing about Daoism is that it's fluid enough to absorb diverse influences, yet it provides a label sufficiently prestigious to justify one's religious activities.)

[Rayzor]

I'm not Hmong, although I have Shezu ancestry (closely related to Yao/Mien, distantly related to Hmong).

Just to clarify, Laozi is not born in Henan. He was born in Hunan, e.g. the Kingdom of Chu. The Kingdom of Chu is generally thought to have strong Miao components.

Furthermore, it is true that during the Warring States, Daoism was associated with the South (the Kingdom of Chu, in particular), whereas Confucianism was associated with the North (the Dukedom of Lu, in particular).

No, he was born in Henan province, not Hunan. It was mentioned in the video posted by qaib, but the video was removed from youtube. Anyway, here are separate sources saying Laozi was born in Henan.

He was from Ku County (present-day eastern Luyi County of Henan) of the State of Chu during the Spring and Autumn Period and served as an official of the archives of the Zhou Dynasty.

http://history.cultural-china.com/en/49History1487.html

Born in Ch'u (present-day Henan Province), Lao Tzu ([small Lao Tzu]), which literally means "old master", is also sometimes referred to as Lao Tan or Li Er.

http://www.thetao.info/tao/laotzu.htm

A genuine historical figure, LAO-ZI was born in Henan Province in the year 604 B.C. — having been conceived by a shooting star and carried in his mother's womb for 83 years before being born as an old man with flowing white beard.

http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/chinese...hp?deity=LAO-ZI

Lao-tzu

Other Names: Lao Zi; Laozi; Lao Tzu; Lao Tse
Born: 570 at Henan Province, China
Died: 490

http://www.readhowyouwant.com/catalog/auth...px?author-id=79


As for Chu state, not really, Chu state is a mullticultural state. Chu state only absorb southern ethnic minority when it expand south. Northern Chu, such as Henan province where Laozi was born consists of Zhou people/Han Chinese. Based on modern day genetics, no Miao/Hmong genes are found in Han Chinese from Henan.

Based on archaeological finds, Chu's culture was initially quite similar to that of other Zhou states. Later on, Chu culture absorbed indigenous elements as the state expanded to the south and east, developing a distinct culture from the traditional Northern Zhou states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_%28state%29#Culture

The royal family of Chu state are believed to be descended from Yellow Emperor, Huang Di, not Chi You. It possible that royal family of Chu state spread Taoism to southern ethnic minority when they absorb them.

According to legends recorded in the Records of the Grand Historian (Shiji) by Sima Qian, the royal family of Chu descended from the mythical Yellow Emperor and his grandson and successor emperor Zhuanxu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_%28state%...in_and_founding

It is also true that many Southern minority nationalities (such as Shezu) practise Daoism. Of course, it may be that they converted to Daoism after coming into contact with Han culture. (Or more likely, they repackaged their original beliefs as Daoism. The thing about Daoism is that it's fluid enough to absorb diverse influences, yet it provides a label sufficiently prestigious to justify one's religious activities.)

Personally, I believe Daoism originated from Han Chinese as many work of Daoism are believed to be originated from Yellow Emperor, Huang Di. As a matter of fact, Huang Di are believed to be the founder of Daoism. Of course, there is possibility that Daoism already exist long time before Huang Di time, but the thing is, assume that root of Daoism really goes deeper than Huang Di time, we do not know who are those people who invented Daoism before Huang Di time. So far, the oldest historical figure that associated with Daoism is Huang Di, not Laozi. Yes, I know Huang Di are myth, just like Chi You, but the fact that Huang Di, the grand ancestor of Han Chinese are credited for Daoism work suggest that Han Chinese are the one who founded Daoism.

Just for the record, Laozi real name is Li Er. His surname is Li. Li is a Han Chinese surname where you can trace it's origin to Emperor Zhuanxu, the grandson of Yellow Emperor, Huang Di.

According to the Yuan He Xing Zuan (元和姓纂), the Chinese dictionary of surnames, the Li surname has a long history which goes back to Emperor Zhuanxu who was the first Li and lived before 2000 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_%28%E6%9D%8E%29

Zhuanxu (simplified Chinese: 颛顼; traditional Chinese: 顓頊; pinyin: Zhuānxū), also known as Gaoyang (高陽) is a mythological monarch of ancient China.

A grandson of the Yellow Emperor, Zhuanxu led the Shi clan in an eastward migration to present-day Shandong, where intermarriages with the Dongyi clan enlarged and augmented their tribal influences. At age twenty, he became their sovereign, going on to rule for seventy-eight years until his death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuanxu

Just like the Han Chinese, Laozi too is also descendant of the mythical Yellow Emperor, Huang Di.

This post has been edited by Rayzor: Jan 25 2012, 09:47 AM

[LoveNStrife]

No, he was born in Henan province, not Hunan. It was mentioned in the video posted by qaib, but the video was removed from youtube. Anyway, here are separate sources saying Laozi was born in Henan.


http://history.cultural-china.com/en/49History1487.html


http://www.thetao.info/tao/laotzu.htm


http://www.godchecker.com/pantheon/chinese...hp?deity=LAO-ZI


http://www.readhowyouwant.com/catalog/auth...px?author-id=79


As for Chu state, not really, Chu state is a mullticultural state. Chu state only absorb southern ethnic minority when it expand south. Northern Chu, such as Henan province where Laozi was born consists of Zhou people/Han Chinese. Based on modern day genetics, no Miao/Hmong genes are found in Han Chinese from Henan.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_%28state%29#Culture

The royal family of Chu state are believed to be descended from Yellow Emperor, Huang Di, not Chi You. It possible that royal family of Chu state spread Taoism to southern ethnic minority when they absorb them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chu_%28state%...in_and_founding



Personally, I believe Daoism originated from Han Chinese as many work of Daoism are believed to be originated from Yellow Emperor, Huang Di. As a matter of fact, Huang Di are believed to be the founder of Daoism. Of course, there is possibility that Daoism already exist long time before Huang Di time, but the thing is, assume that root of Daoism really goes deeper than Huang Di time, we do not know who are those people who invented Daoism before Huang Di time. So far, the oldest historical figure that associated with Daoism is Huang Di, not Laozi. Yes, I know Huang Di are myth, just like Chi You, but the fact that Huang Di, the grand ancestor of Han Chinese are credited for Daoism work suggest that Han Chinese are the one who founded Daoism.

Just for the record, Laozi real name is Li Er. His surname is Li. Li is a Han Chinese surname where you can trace it's origin to Emperor Zhuanxu, the grandson of Yellow Emperor, Huang Di.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_%28%E6%9D%8E%29


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuanxu

Just like the Han Chinese, Laozi too is also descendant of the mythical Yellow Emperor, Huang Di.

You know what, my bad...You're right, it is Henan. I guess I associated Hunan with Chu, and so I reflexively thought that it must have been Hunan.

Well, genetic talk aside...Most Chinese textbooks these days do associate Miao with Chu - In general they teach the idea that Chu has strong Miao components.

I agree that Laozi is clearly a Huaxia person. There is no debate about that.

If you want to talk "objective history", then my view of my ancestry (Shezu) is that my ancestors probably absorbed Daoism through Celestial Master influence and then modified their mythology accordingly. According to Shezu mythology, however, our ancestor studied Daoist magic at Maoshan, but died in the attempt. I don't know much about Miao mythology and history - I'm just adding my two cents as someone with related southern minority nationality ancestry.

[Rayzor]

You know what, my bad...You're right, it is Henan. I guess I associated Hunan with Chu, and so I reflexively thought that it must have been Hunan.

Well, genetic talk aside...Most Chinese textbooks these days do associate Miao with Chu - In general they teach the idea that Chu has strong Miao components.

I agree that Laozi is clearly a Huaxia person. There is no debate about that.

If you want to talk "objective history", then my view of my ancestry (Shezu) is that my ancestors probably absorbed Daoism through Celestial Master influence and then modified their mythology accordingly. According to Shezu mythology, however, our ancestor studied Daoist magic at Maoshan, but died in the attempt. I don't know much about Miao mythology and history - I'm just adding my two cents as someone with related southern minority nationality ancestry.

I agree with you that Chu has strong Miao components. I read it somewhere Chu language might have Hmong language influence.What I mean is the founder of Chu state that I believe and the people of northern Chu to be nonMiao and most likely Han Chinese since according to wikipedia, Shiji mentioned that the founder of Chu state consider itself descendant of Huang Di. The Chu state was originally small, smaller than its later size. It was originally only around Henan province. At this point, it was mostly consists of Zhou people, later on when they expand, it absorb natives of southern China such as Miao, and from there, Miao culture and languages influence and shape Chu state culture and languages. Northern Chu such as Henan province consists of Zhou people/Han Chinese while southern Chu consists of southern natives such as Miao/Hmong.

This post has been edited by Rayzor: Jan 25 2012, 08:26 PM

[LoveNStrife]

I agree with you that Chu has strong Miao components. I read it somewhere Chu language might have Hmong language influence.What I mean is the founder of Chu state that I believe and the people of northern Chu to be nonMiao and most likely Han Chinese since according to wikipedia, Shiji mentioned that the founder of Chu state consider itself descendant of Huang Di. The Chu state was originally small, smaller than its later size. It was originally only around Henan province. At this point, it was mostly consists of Zhou people, later on when they expand, it absorb natives of southern China such as Miao, and from there, Miao culture and languages influence and shape Chu state culture and languages. Northern Chu such as Henan province consists of Zhou people/Han Chinese while southern Chu consists of southern natives such as Miao/Hmong.

Well, I tend to believe that one cannot retroactively apply "Han Chinese" as a label to pre-Qin China. However, I largely agree with your description of how the Kingdom of Chu formed.

[Rayzor]

Well, I tend to believe that one cannot retroactively apply "Han Chinese" as a label to pre-Qin China. However, I largely agree with your description of how the Kingdom of Chu formed.

My bad, I should have use the words 'proto Han Chinese'.

I also want to add that one of the main reason I think Taoism came from Han Chinese is because the root of Taoism can be traced back to I Ching.

The two major branches of Chinese philosophy, Confucianism and Taoism have common roots in the I Ching

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching%27s_influence

Some of the oldest I Ching can be found on Shang's and Zhou's oracle bones.

In the past 50 years a "Modernist" history of the I Ching emerged based on research into Shang and Zhou dynasties' oracle bones, Zhou bronze inscriptions and other sources (Marshall 2001, Rutt 1996, Shaughnessy 1993, Smith 2008).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching#Modernist_view

One of the earliest I Ching was the oracle of the Zhou

One of the earliest versions of the I Ching (called, Zhou I, or Changes of Zhou) was the oracle of the Zhou.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Ching%27s_i...Chinese_culture

Shang and Zhou are definitely proto Han Chinese. In other words, long time before Han Chinese/Huaxia come in contact with southern ethnic minority, I Ching is already with Han Chinese/Huaxia.

This post has been edited by Rayzor: Apr 7 2012, 05:13 AM

[Yerroperil]

I agree with you that Chu has strong Miao components. I read it somewhere Chu language might have Hmong language influence.What I mean is the founder of Chu state that I believe and the people of northern Chu to be nonMiao and most likely Han Chinese since according to wikipedia, Shiji mentioned that the founder of Chu state consider itself descendant of Huang Di. The Chu state was originally small, smaller than its later size. It was originally only around Henan province. At this point, it was mostly consists of Zhou people, later on when they expand, it absorb natives of southern China such as Miao, and from there, Miao culture and languages influence and shape Chu state culture and languages. Northern Chu such as Henan province consists of Zhou people/Han Chinese while southern Chu consists of southern natives such as Miao/Hmong.

To add to this Xiong Yi was granted a fief by Zhou Cheng Wang,it probably became diverse due to absorbing Yue and had Ba influences. Chu alienated itself when it claimed the title of Wang thus sparking an alliance against it and viewed as barbarian(perhaps barbarianism had to do with distance from the central plains,Qin was viewed as barbarian(since they also incorporated Rong and Di) but they also stubbornly clung on to older Zhou traditions and that the rulers were related to the Zhao rulers,Wu's rulers were descendants of Wu Taibo who was distant kin to Zhou imperial house yet there still viewed as such),the location of Danyang is also debated. I wouldn't label Chu as Han or Miao since those identities didn't exist,perhaps if Qinshihuang never burnt those books humans would know more about the Spring and Autumn and the Warring States history.

[LoveNStrife]

Hey, if anyone here is interested in Daoism, I'm starting a study group.

(1) Meet like-minded people, make friends.
(2) Build on one's knowledge in a systematic way.

It will be conducted primarily in English. Hopefully some sort of msn or qq group can be set up.

PM me if interested.