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Altaic Asians - the Horde (orda), Sons of Siberia who shook the World
CAsian
post Aug 11 2011, 06:54 AM
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QUOTE (ElapsePride @ Aug 11 2011, 05:21 AM) *
icon_smile.gif you are very wise.
what I meant by "they" is the decedent of Kublai.
Kublai, who was not only a great conqueror, but also a great leader, he's certainly a creator as well.
I'm not an expert but from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuan_Dynasty
you can see that Kublai was very open-minded and creative. but his decedent wasted all his effort devoted in building a real long lasting and great empire

thank you)

that refers to the other altaic empires too: Golden Horde, Timurids. The founders were great but then the empire history became a story of relatives fighting for the power among themselves.
In the middle ages some arab wrote that the turks (turkic people) becomes outstanding among the other peoples, but they are not notable between themselves. I guess that is because nobody wants to be subordinate. May be the excess of martial spirit and leadership energy prevented developing of altaic states.
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Saiak
post Aug 11 2011, 08:50 AM
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QUOTE
In the middle ages some arab wrote that the turks (turkic people) becomes outstanding among the other peoples, but they are not notable between themselves


Whoever the author of that observation is - he pretty much summed up the ugliest characteristic of all Altaics. Tribalism is the cancer of nomadic people, even nowadays tribalism, envy and corruption reign over Central Asia. In my language, there is a phenomenon called "Koralbastik", which basically describes the inability of a person to accept the success of their fellow comrades, neighbors, relatives etc.
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CAsian
post Aug 11 2011, 11:00 AM
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QUOTE (Saiak @ Aug 11 2011, 09:50 AM) *
Whoever the author of that observation is - he pretty much summed up the ugliest characteristic of all Altaics. Tribalism is the cancer of nomadic people, even nowadays tribalism, envy and corruption reign over Central Asia. In my language, there is a phenomenon called "Koralbastik", which basically describes the inability of a person to accept the success of their fellow comrades, neighbors, relatives etc.

Yes, our society is divided by clans (juzes). Each clan (juz) consists of several tribes. And people used to support their own relatives first. I don't know is that good or bad.

Some time ago I used to think that our people are very corrupted but then I started to work with a French drilling company. The top manager was a Frenchman, the middle management was Romanian, the other employees and workers were Kazakh. In some time it was found out that the whole company was corrupted. The top manager used the recruiting company supplying unrequired manpower at the very high price. The middle management chose the certain suppliers which were selling their services at the very high price. Some other employee also had out of contract benefits. Now I think that corruption is something which does not depend on nationality and race. Each society tries to get rid off that but not each one is successful.

About envy I don't know. Instead I would agree that the rivalry exist. But it's also very human trait of character not ethnic or racial. IMHO
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Saiak
post Aug 11 2011, 11:53 AM
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There is a recent trend about Koreans and Japanese being included into Altai - nomadic group. What do you guys think about it?
In my opinion, linguistically speaking there might be some connection. However, Korea and Japan are a cultural "product" of China(not in an offensive way), thus sedentary, Confucianism, diet. Culturally and may be physically, I see no connection between these people.

Also these are some of the Middle Eastern/Islamic empires formed by Altaics.

The Golden Horde(Turco - Mongolic 12401502)


Mameluk Sultanate(Turco - Arabic 12501517)


Khwarazmian dynasty(Turco - Persian 10771231)


Ottoman Empire(Turco - Anatolian? 12991923)


Mughal Empire (Turco - Mongol 15261858)
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CAsian
post Aug 11 2011, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (Saiak @ Aug 11 2011, 12:53 PM) *
There is a recent trend about Koreans and Japanese being included into Altai - nomadic group. What do you guys think about it?
In my opinion, linguistically speaking there might be some connection. However, Korea and Japan are a cultural "product" of China(not in an offensive way), thus sedentary, Confucianism, diet. Culturally and may be physically, I see no connection between these people.

as for me I am quite interested in their cultures but I don't think that they are close to Altaic nomads. May be Mongolians or Manchu feel some closeness?
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KraterosHellas
post Aug 11 2011, 03:08 PM
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QUOTE (AsiaticGlory @ Aug 10 2011, 04:55 PM) *
Each group had their strengths and weaknesses.

East Asians had the technology, manpower, and industry to conquer but lacked the strength and warrior-hood to do so. Altaic nomads had the opposite.

Unfortunately for us Asians, white people had a balance of both traits so they were the ones who dominated the world. We see white people on all four corners of the planet and we see their culture everywhere. The fact we speak English instead of Chinese or Mongolian is just more evidence of the white man's dominance. Compared to the influence wielded by the white man's Christianity, the Asian religions of Tengrism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Daoism, and Shintoism look like obscure cults.


interesting analysis. yes white people had balanced traits. i think that's how they succeded, by taking the best from each culture they absorbed or came in contact with. the mix of viking adventurism, greek erudition and roman virtue created a powerful impetus for world dominance and progress.
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ElapsePride
post Aug 11 2011, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (Saiak @ Aug 11 2011, 11:53 AM) *
There is a recent trend about Koreans and Japanese being included into Altai - nomadic group. What do you guys think about it?
In my opinion, linguistically speaking there might be some connection. However, Korea and Japan are a cultural "product" of China(not in an offensive way), thus sedentary, Confucianism, diet. Culturally and may be physically, I see no connection between these people.

China didn't "produce" them -_-|||
back then China had dominant and advanced culture in East Asia ranging from instruments, musics, costumes, technologies, literatures, philosophies, religions, arts etc, even the Mongolian and Manchurian rulers adopted them, Korea and Japan were influenced heavily but they are unique in their own ways.

the Tibetans, the Qiangs and the Hmongs are genetically close to the majority of us, but some of them are nomadic and culturally distinctive from us, Does that mean we are less connected genetically? I think not.
Same applies to you and the Koreans or the Japanese, it depends on whether or not both sides care about it and accept each other.
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Saiak
post Aug 11 2011, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE
China didn't "produce" them -_-|||

Sorry, I guess my definition of "production" sounded a bit harsh, I didn't mean it that way. However, there is no debate that China played a crucial role in the development of those two nations. As you listed yourself, "musics, costumes, technologies, literatures, philosophies, religions, arts."

QUOTE
Same applies to you and the Koreans or the Japanese, it depends on whether or not both sides care about it and accept each other.


If we assume that Altaic linguistic theory is true. Then Turkic(I mean real Turkic - Central Asian and Siberian), Mongolic and Tungusic Languages are practically analogous to Slavic Languages, while Japanese and Korean are analogous to Indo - Aryan(Pashtun, Urdu, Persian). It's very easy to learn Russian if you know Polish, the same way it's easy to learn Mongolian if you know Yakutian. Japanese and Korean are very distant from Altaic languages, only some grammatical similarities are there.

Just to sum up: I still hold my view that Korea and Japan are essentially East Asian - Sinid in culture, history and traditions. But, hey, is it a bad thing? I just think we shouldn't get mixed up. No one wants to see a confused Korean claiming that his ancestors had to do something with the siege of Constantinople or the battle against the Crusaders. beerchug.gif

This post has been edited by Saiak: Aug 11 2011, 04:13 PM
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ElapsePride
post Aug 11 2011, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE (Saiak @ Aug 11 2011, 05:12 PM) *
Mongolic and Tungusic Languages are practically analogous to Slavic Languages, while Japanese and Korean are analogous to Indo - Aryan(Pashtun, Urdu, Persian).

It's a Metaphor, right?
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Saiak
post Aug 11 2011, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE
It's a Metaphor, right?


I was correlating altaic languages to indo european = altaic group(turkic, mongolic, tungusic) is to japanese and korean => is more or less the same as slavic group to indo aryan(both groups are in indo - european). russian to persian => as mongolian to japanese.
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ElapsePride
post Aug 11 2011, 08:15 PM
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QUOTE (Saiak @ Aug 11 2011, 08:05 PM) *
I was correlating altaic languages to indo european = altaic group(turkic, mongolic, tungusic) is to japanese and korean => is more or less the same as slavic group to indo aryan(both groups are in indo - european). russian to persian => as mongolian to japanese.

Manchu song, it sounds mongolian to me, what do you think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtlHaO8VbJc...feature=related
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Saiak
post Aug 11 2011, 10:15 PM
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Manchu song, it sounds mongolian to me, what do you think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtlHaO8VbJc...feature=related


As a native Turkic speaker(Kyrgyz), It does sound Mongolian to me, but at the same time the intonation, some pronunciation sound very familiar. Somehow, it sounds a bit Korean? I don't know...
Check out these;
My favorite Unesco clip, gives a nice intro in English
Kyrgyz Boy telling Manas Epic (Describes the Battle against Chinese and Kalmyks)
An older Manaschi
Here' the unesco clip about Manas Epic with English Translation

How do they sound? Always wondered about that...

This post has been edited by Saiak: Aug 11 2011, 10:46 PM
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ElapsePride
post Aug 11 2011, 10:47 PM
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QUOTE (Saiak @ Aug 11 2011, 10:15 PM) *
As a native Turkic speaker(Kyrgyz), It does sound Mongolian to me, but at the same time the intonation, some pronunciation sound very familiar. Somehow, it sounds a bit Korean? I don't know...

Korean sounds like Japanese to me in songs
Manchu sounds somewhere between Mongolian and Mandarin to me, maybe because Mandarin is influenced by manchu, the word Mandarin actually means Manchu official...

QUOTE (Saiak @ Aug 11 2011, 10:15 PM) *
Check out these;
Kyrgyz Boy telling Manas Epic (Describes the Battle against Chinese and Kalmyks)
An older Manaschi
Here' the unesco clip about Manas Epic with English Translation
How do they sound? Always wondered about that...

is this the way how Altaic people live? Imagine how it is like riding a horse freely in a vast plain, must be awesome, plus, I like the hawks...
as to the sounding of the language, it sounds a bit like Uyghur to me
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CAsian
post Aug 12 2011, 12:42 AM
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QUOTE (ElapsePride @ Aug 11 2011, 09:15 PM) *
Manchu song, it sounds mongolian to me, what do you think
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtlHaO8VbJc...feature=related

Manchu song sounds mongolian to me also, but they look a bit differently from mongolians and turks.
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CAsian
post Aug 12 2011, 12:49 AM
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QUOTE (ElapsePride @ Aug 11 2011, 04:35 PM) *
Same applies to you and the Koreans or the Japanese, it depends on whether or not both sides care about it and accept each other.

I just don't understand what is similar between altaic people and the Koreans and the Japanese. May be the similarity is not obvious for the turk branch only.
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ElapsePride
post Aug 12 2011, 12:54 AM
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QUOTE (CAsian @ Aug 12 2011, 12:42 AM) *
Manchu song sounds mongolian to me also, but they look a bit differently from mongolians and turks.

they are pretty much a mixture of the old Manchus, the Mongols and the Hans,
look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Banners
The Eight Banners consisted of three ethnic components: the Manchu, the Han, and the Mongols.
so basically, these 3 ethnic groups made Manchu.
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CAsian
post Aug 12 2011, 01:54 AM
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QUOTE (ElapsePride @ Aug 12 2011, 01:54 AM) *
they are pretty much a mixture of the old Manchus, the Mongols and the Hans,
look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_Banners
The Eight Banners consisted of three ethnic components: the Manchu, the Han, and the Mongols.
so basically, these 3 ethnic groups made Manchu.

they are similar to the Chinese or the Koreans in general. Can you distinguish them among other nothern chinese ethnicities? Do they have some national traits of character? I know nothing about them. Only about the last dinasty. Culturally they are close to China, not to altaic nomads, I guess.
Btw, for me (Kazakh) Uigur language and music sound very different from Kyrgyz language and music.
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AsiaticGlory
post Aug 12 2011, 03:34 AM
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QUOTE (CAsian @ Aug 11 2011, 04:36 AM) *
everything is changing like clouds in the sky. The westerners were not advanced even one thousand years ago. Now their population is decreasing, the production centers are shifted to Asia etc. Asian countries have the highest IQ level in the world. I suspect the majority of people on the earth are asians.


It does seem that way. As far as Asia goes, it is mainly the Mongoloid majority countries that have the high IQs. We are the majority but our countries' are starting to have fewer children. Africans, on the other hand, have the highest birthrates.

QUOTE (CAsian @ Aug 11 2011, 04:36 AM) *
Asian race is the youngest one, from what I have read I cought the idea of leading role of asian race in human evolution in the future.
Of course, I can be mistaken (who knows the future?). I hope that my guess was not created by any inferiority complex if they exist (I hope they don't).


I have heard about that too.
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ElapsePride
post Aug 12 2011, 07:32 AM
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QUOTE (CAsian @ Aug 12 2011, 02:54 AM) *
they are similar to the Chinese or the Koreans in general. Can you distinguish them among other nothern chinese ethnicities? Do they have some national traits of character? I know nothing about them. Only about the last dinasty. Culturally they are close to China, not to altaic nomads, I guess.
Btw, for me (Kazakh) Uigur language and music sound very different from Kyrgyz language and music.

Manchus look no difference from north chinese whatsoever
but Koreans look different in a general sense, mainly because of fashion, skin care and behaviours, they have very good skin, but in comparison of north koreans, due to malnutrition and poverty, their north brothers look dark and tough skinned.
facial features are also different between Chinese and Koreans

do you Altaic people still live in traditional nomadic way like shown in the videos above?

This post has been edited by ElapsePride: Aug 12 2011, 07:37 AM
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Saiak
post Aug 12 2011, 09:44 AM
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QUOTE
do you Altaic people still live in traditional nomadic way like shown in the videos above?


Only in rural places of Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Western Mongolia(where Kazakh and Kyrgyz Turks live), Mongolia, and Northern Siberia.

QUOTE
I like the hawks...

Those are eagles, Kazakh and Kyrgyz still practice eagle - hunting.

QUOTE
as to the sounding of the language, it sounds a bit like Uyghur to me


Hmm.. I always thought Kyrgyz is a Siberian sounding language, as we lived around Altai mountains for thousands of years. Uighur always sounded like Turkic with a huge Persian influence(like pronunciation, sounds and etc.)

QUOTE
but Koreans look different in a general sense, mainly because of fashion, skin care and behaviours, they have very good skin, but in comparison of north koreans, due to malnutrition and poverty, their north brothers look dark and tough skinned.

Central Asia has a big population of Russified Koreans. I had absolutely no problem in differentiating CA turks from Koreans.

QUOTE
Btw, for me (Kazakh) Uigur language and music sound very different from Kyrgyz language and music.

How does it sound to you? and btw +1 that music sounds differently icon_smile.gif

This post has been edited by Saiak: Aug 12 2011, 10:04 AM
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