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Turkic tribes amongst Khalkh-Mongols
Aza
post Sep 9 2011, 10:31 PM
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1.Sartuuls
2.Kirgizs
3.Kavchik-Kipchak
4.Khangin-Kangli
5.Basigit-Bashkir
6.Uigut-Uighur
7.Khoton-Uighur
8.Khaasuut-khakas
9.Tele
10.Telengit
11.Soyot
12.Zulkhar
13.agasaxal
14.Khudai
15.Asud
16.Urankai
17.Kharchin-Kipchaks
18.Khasaguud-Kazaks
19.Tsaatan
20.Darkhat
.................
.....................

wow too many.

This post has been edited by Aza: Sep 9 2011, 10:38 PM
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CAsian
post Sep 9 2011, 11:02 PM
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I think that kerey, naiman, jalair are also turkic tribes. Do you have any of these tribes incorporated into khalkha-mongols? I know that most of the Kazakhs in Mongolia and China are kerey and naiman.
I am kerey, btw.
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Aza
post Sep 9 2011, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (CAsian @ Sep 9 2011, 11:02 PM) *
I think that kerey, naiman, jalair are also turkic tribes. Do you have any of these tribes incorporated into khalkha-mongols? I know that most of the Kazakhs in Mongolia and China are kerey and naiman.
I am kerey, btw.



Look at here. Kereit and Naimans are mongol tribes.You are the one of turkifyed mongols.I"m from Mongol-Naimans.

http://forum-eurasica.ru/index.php?/topic/...BE%D0%BB%D1%8B/

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CAsian
post Sep 10 2011, 12:44 AM
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QUOTE (Aza @ Sep 9 2011, 11:23 PM) *
Look at here. Kereit and Naimans are mongol tribes.You are the one of turkifyed mongols.I"m from Mongol-Naimans.

http://forum-eurasica.ru/index.php?/topic/...BE%D0%BB%D1%8B/

Sorry, not convinced.
The modern day Mongolia was included into the Eastern Turkic Kaganat. So, it was turkic land. The turkic tribes Kereit, Naiman, Jalair were united by Chingiz khan and went to the West. Together with the other tribes they were called "the Mongols" in 13 century. But they were speaking Turkic language, their names and titles were Turkic. We can not find many traces of mongolian culture in KZ while there are plenty of turkic words in your language.
If some Naiman people who left at home chose to be Mongolians it doesn't mean that the whole tribe is Mongolian.
Different scientists think differently, but my people think we are Turkic.



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Aza
post Sep 10 2011, 04:56 PM
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The Kereit,Naiman and Jalair were the mongol-speaking tribes. If some Kereit people who left at home chose to be Turko-kazakhantrop it doesn't mean that the whole tribe is Turkic.
Many different scientists think that, Kereits were tunguso-manchju people at first. And DNA of kazakh-kereits tells about that.

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CAsian
post Sep 10 2011, 11:45 PM
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QUOTE (Aza @ Sep 10 2011, 04:56 PM) *
The Kereit,Naiman and Jalair were the mongol-speaking tribes. If some Kereit people who left at home chose to be Turko-kazakhantrop it doesn't mean that the whole tribe is Turkic.
Many different scientists think that, Kereits were tunguso-manchju people at first. And DNA of kazakh-kereits tells about that.

LOL... I can also say that there are many scientists who think that Kereys were Turkic speaking people all the time. I guess the Mongolians have a lot of relations with tunguso-manchju people. Even your languages sound a bit similar IMHO.

I would like to see that work on Kazakh Kerey DNA. Any reference?

this is from Viki:
"The Kereit tribe is named both Mongolian and Turkic by different accounts, though names and titles of Kereit rulers imply that they primarily spoke a Turkic language. But as a coalition of many subtribes they seem to have included elements of both Turkic and Mongol ancestries, which makes an unambiguous categorization difficult."

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sahaliyan
post Sep 11 2011, 12:25 AM
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QUOTE (CAsian @ Sep 11 2011, 12:45 PM) *
LOL... I can also say that there are many scientists who think that Kereys were Turkic speaking people all the time. I guess the Mongolians have a lot of relations with tunguso-manchju people. Even your languages sound a bit similar IMHO.

I would like to see that work on Kazakh Kerey DNA. Any reference?

this is from Viki:
"The Kereit tribe is named both Mongolian and Turkic by different accounts, though names and titles of Kereit rulers imply that they primarily spoke a Turkic language. But as a coalition of many subtribes they seem to have included elements of both Turkic and Mongol ancestries, which makes an unambiguous categorization difficult."

Kazakstan DNA project
Y-chromosome records

DYS#393 390 19* 391 385a 385b 426 388 439 389-1 392 389-2

13 24 15 10 12 14 11 13 11 13 11 29:C3->tore
13 24 15 10 12 13 11 13 11 13 11 29:C3->tore
14 24 15 10 12 14 11 13 12 13 11 29:C3->tore
14 24 15 10 12 14 11 13 12 13 11 29:C3->tore
14 24 15 10 12 14 11 13 12 13 11 29:C3->tore
14 24 15 11 12 14 11 13 12 13 11 29:C3->tore->Abulhair han,the Kazakh han of 18th century
13 25 16 10 12 13 11 14 10 13 11 29:C3->tore C3* star cluster
13 24 15 10 12 14 11 13 12 13 11 31:C3->ysty
13 25 16 10 12 13 11 14 10 13 11 29:C3->dulat C3* star cluster
13 25 16 10 12 13 11 14 10 13 11 29:C3->kerei->ashamaily C3* star cluster
13 25 16 10 12 13 11 14 10 13 11 29:C3->kerei ->abak C3* star cluster
14 23 16 9 11 19 11 12 12 14 11 29:C3->konyrat
13 25 16 10 12 13 11 13 11 14 11 31:C3->baiuly->tana C3c
13 25 16 10 12 12 11 13 11 14 11 31:C3->baiuly->tana C3c
13 24 16 9 12 12 11 12 11 14 11 31:C3->baiuly->zhappas C3c
13 25 16 10 12 12 11 13 11 14 11 31:C3->baiuly->taz C3c
13 25 16 10 12 12 11 13 11 14 11 31:C3->jetyru->tama C3c
13 25 15 10 12 12 11 13 11 14 11 31:C3->alimuly->zhamanak(shekti) C3c
13 25 16 10 12 12 11 13 12 14 11 31:C3->alimuly->kete C3c
13 25 16 10 12 13 11 14 10 13 11 29:C3->unknown C3* star cluster
13 24 15 9 12 12 11 13 11 14 11 31:C3->unknown C3c

13 23 13 10 13 17 11 12 13 14 12 29:G ->naiman
13 23 13 11 13 17 11 12 13 14 12 29:G ->naiman
13 23 13 10 13 17 11 12 13 14 12 29:G ->argyn->begendyk
13 23 13 11 13 17 11 12 14 14 13 29:G ->argyn
13 23 13 11 13 18 11 12 12 14 12 29:G ->argyn- madjar
13 23 13 11 13 18 11 12 12 14 12 29:G ->argyn -madjar
13 23 13 10 13 17 11 12 13 14 12 29:G ->argyn- suyndyk-karzhas
13 23 13 10 13 17 11 12 13 14 12 29:G ->argyn-kuandyk-altay

12 23 15 10 13 18 11 12 12 12 13 29: O3a3c-> naiman-> karakerei
12 23 15 10 13 18 11 12 12 12 13 30: O3a3c-> naiman-> karakerei
12 23 15 10 13 18 11 12 12 12 13 28: O3a3c-> naiman-> karauzhasyk
12 23 15 10 13 18 11 12 12 12 13 29: O3a3c-> naiman-> karauzhasyk
12 23 15 10 13 18 11 12 12 12 13 29: O3a3c-> naiman-> karauzhasyk
12 23 15 10 13 18 11 12 12 12 13 29: O3a3c -> naiman->matai
12 23 14 10 13 18 11 12 12 12 13 29: O3a3c -> naiman->sadyr
13 24 14 10 12 20 11 10 12 13 14 29: O3a3c-> kypshak
13 24 17 10 15 18 11 12 12 12 13 28: O2-> baiuly->zhappas

14 24 14 10 13 16 12 12 11 12 14 30: Q-> kozha-> Shair Q1a3
14 23 15 10 15 17 11 12 11 14 11 32 : E1b1b1 -> kozha->Bolat

14 23 14 11 11 14 11 12 10 14 14 30 : N1->tore N1c1
14 23 14 10 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 30 : N->unknown N1c
14 23 15 11 11 13 11 12 10 14 14 31 : N->unknown N1c

13 26 16 11 11 14 12 12 10 13 11 30 : R1a1->tore->Esim han->Zhangir,the kazakh han of 17th century
13 25 17 10 11 14 15 12 10 13 11 31 : R1a1->argyn ->atygai
13 25 16 10 11 14 12 12 10 13 11 30 : R1a1->zhalaiyr->balgaly

13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 14 14 13 30 : R1b1b1->kypshak-> karabalyk
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 13 14 13 30 : R1b1b1->kypshak-> kara-kypshak
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 14 14 13 30 : R1b1b1->unknown
13 19 14 11 13 13 12 12 14 14 13 31 : R1b1b1->argyn->kuandyk->altay
12 25 14 11 11 13 12 12 12 13 13 29 : R1b1b2->tore-> Tore-tolengut
13 24 14 10 11 14 12 13 12 14 13 30 : R1b1b2a1b->kypshak ->tory-kypshak

14 23 15 10 13 14 12 12 11 14 10 30 : R2->tore

12 23 15 9 13 16 11 16 13 13 11 29: J2a1->katagan
12 23 15 10 14 17 11 15 13 14 11 31 : J2a1->dulat
12 22 14 10 13 13 11 15 12 14 11 31:J2-> dulat->janis
12 23 14 10 13 17 11 15 11 13 11 29 : J2a1-> alimuly->Shekty
12 24 15 10 13 15 11 14 12 13 11 30 : J2->unknown
12 23 14 10 14 17 X X 12 13 11 29: J2->Argyn-> Madjar
12 24 15 11 13 17 X X 13 12 11 28: J2->Argyn-> Маdjar
12 23 15 10 14 17 Х Х Х 13 11 30 : J2a- >【Taraz】
11 23 14 10 14 19 11 16 12 13 11 29 : J2->【KyzylOrda】
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CAsian
post Sep 11 2011, 12:45 AM
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I am not an expert but what I understand is that two Kerey people from the sample above have C3 y-haplogroup. It only means that they are relative to the so called Chingiz khan genom. That is well known fact. But nothing about relation to Tunguso-Manchjus.
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Aza
post Sep 11 2011, 05:16 AM
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QUOTE (CAsian @ Sep 11 2011, 01:45 AM) *
I am not an expert but what I understand is that two Kerey people from the sample above have C3 y-haplogroup. It only means that they are relative to the so called Chingiz khan genom. That is well known fact. But nothing about relation to Tunguso-Manchjus.

Sure. laugh.gif

Haplogroup C3c
Possible time of origin 3,500 [95% CI 300–19,700] years before present[12] or 2,750 ± 1,370 years before present[1]
Possible place of origin perhaps Mongolia or the Lake Baikal region[1]
Ancestor C3
Defining mutations M48, M77, M86
Highest frequencies Kazakhs 57%[13]-63%[14], Oroqen 42%[2]-68%[5], Evenks 27%[2]-70%[10], Udegey 60%[15], Negidal 20%[15]-100%[15], Evens 5%[4]-61%[5], Itelmen 39%[15], Ulchi/Nanai 38%[15], Kalmyks 37%[16], Nivkhs 35%[15], Koryaks 33%[15], Yukaghir 23%[10], Mongolians 18%[5]-46%[13] (Uriankhai 33%, Zakhchin 30%, Khalkh 15%, Khoton 10%[12]), Tuvans 7%[13]-20%[15], Hezhe 11%[2], Kyrgyz 8%[13]-12%[14]
laugh.gif laugh.gif

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Aza
post Sep 11 2011, 05:39 AM
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There were two different Naimans -Northern and Southern \Ar naiman and Ovor Naiman.
South naimans were mixed with Karakitai people and manchju-chinese slave soldiers,novadays their descendants are the kazakh naimans.
The north naimans are the original naiman who have mostly C3 and R1a.Novadays mongol-naimans.
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CAsian
post Sep 11 2011, 06:56 AM
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QUOTE (Aza @ Sep 11 2011, 05:39 AM) *
There were two different Naimans -Northern and Southern \Ar naiman and Ovor Naiman.
South naimans were mixed with Karakitai people and manchju-chinese slave soldiers,novadays their descendants are the kazakh naimans.
The north naimans are the original naiman who have mostly C3 and R1a.Novadays mongol-naimans.

up to the moment what I understand from your posts is that the mongol-naimans are PURER and therefore BETTER than kazakh-naiman laugh.gif

the fact is that the ancestors of kazakh naiman, kazakh kerey, kazakh jalair etc. left the modern day Mongolia to conquer the Western lands. They were speaking Turkic language and had Turkic titles.

People are confused thinking that the success of the Western campaign was the success of the ancestors of the Mongolians (who left at home). It was a glory of the Kazakhs' ancestors. No offence.




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Aza
post Sep 11 2011, 07:56 PM
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I. There is a certain earth among the East countries about which it is told above and which is called as Mongal. This land owned by four people before Genghiskhan: one was called as Ieka-Mongal, that is the great Mongals, the second was called as the Su-mongal, that is water Mongals, they called themselves Tatars from rivers name, which flows through their country and wich called "Tatar"; the third people were called as Merkit, the fourth – Mekrit\Kereit\. All these people had one form of persons and one language though between themselves they were divided on areas and sovereigns.

..........The Journey of Friar John of Pian de Carpine to the Court of Kuyuk Khan, 1245-1247 .................




Kereits are a subgroup of Mongols; their dwelling is [on the rivers] to Onon and Kerulen, the land of Mongols. Those districts are close to Chine"s boundry .Kereits were at enmity with numerous tribes, especially with Naiman tribe.

.......Notes on Rashid ad-Din Rashid ad-Din was the author of the Jami' at-tawarikh........



In other place of "the Collection of annals" Rashid-Ad Din again marks: "They ( kereits) were nice for a numerous tribe, armies and ancient sovereigns, had similarity to the Mongol tribes, and their customs, customs, adverbs and dictionary structure (lugat) - the close friend to the friend"

There is no "a Turkic name" of kereits
Buiruk - a mongol title,
The khan - a mongol title,
Togrul/Togoril - Name of bird\ in mongolian\
Vang khan\Ung khan\ - a Chinese title,
Sangun\son of Vang khan\-general -a Chinese title,
Mark - a Christian name.


Otherways in turkic language-Kereit or Kara It is DIRTY DOG. laugh.gif


Marco Polo writes about Kereits: «To the north from Karakorona \Kharkhorin.Mongolia\ and from Altai <...> there is a plain Bangu, it lasts for forty days. The people local wild also are called kereit, are engaged in cattle breeding, it is a lot of at them deer; on deer, I will tell to you, they go. Their customs and the same customs, as at Tatars; they [people] of the great khan. Neither bread, nor wine at them isn't present. In the summer they have a game, and they hunt both on animals, and on birds; and in winter from a great cold there don't live neither an animal, nor a bird. In forty days - the sea-ocean» (Marco Polo, with. 92).

QUOTE (CAsian @ Sep 11 2011, 07:56 AM) *
It was a glory of the Kazakhs' ancestors. No offence.They were speaking Turkic language and had Turkic titles.

There is no proof. Don't make laugh people. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

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Aza
post Sep 12 2011, 10:26 AM
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12 major tribes of Khalkh-Mongols.
Ar Mongol
1.Ushin and Jalair---\Uisin,Yaloir\
2.Besud and Eljigin---\Bekhsud\
3.Goralas and Kirgiz---\Koralas,Kuralas\
4.Khoroo>khokhid and Tsookor----\Kora.Sokir\
5.Kereit and Katagin---\Kirei,Kerei.Girei,Katagan,Fatagan\
6.Tangut and Sartaul\ Sarta,Tangit\.
7.Urankai

Ovor Mongol

1.Baarin---\Barin.Parin,Bairin\
2.Khongirad----\ Konyrat.Kungrat,Kondrat\
3.Bayad----\ Bayat.Payat,Bayut\
4.Jarut---\Descendants of ancient tatars\
5.Ujiet---\ kiat,kiyat\
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Aza
post Sep 12 2011, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (CAsian @ Sep 11 2011, 06:56 AM) *
kazakh kerey,


List of Manchu clans . love2.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Manch...habetical_order

Ancestors of kazakh-CAsian embarassedlaugh.gif

Kere Hala (Sinicized :克哷氏)- Kerei
Kerit Hala (Sinicized :克哩特氏)-Kereit
laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

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Saiak
post Sep 14 2011, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE
1.Sartuuls
2.Kirgizs
3.Kavchik-Kipchak
4.Khangin-Kangli
5.Basigit-Bashkir
6.Uigut-Uighur
7.Khoton-Uighur
8.Khaasuut-khakas
9.Tele
10.Telengit
11.Soyot
12.Zulkhar
13.agasaxal
14.Khudai
15.Asud
16.Urankai
17.Kharchin-Kipchaks
18.Khasaguud-Kazaks
19.Tsaatan
20.Darkhat


Modern day Mongolia is the theoretical origin of Turkic people, so no wonder there will be Turkics.

I'm still puzzled as to why seemingly Mongolian Empire is largely linguistically Turkic (Kipchak - Golden Horde, Chagatai - Timurid etc. etc.)?

QUOTE
3.Goralas and Kirgiz---\Koralas,Kuralas\

I guess these are my distant relatives %)

QUOTE
Buiruk - a mongol title,
The khan - a mongol title,
Togrul/Togoril - Name of bird\ in mongolian\
Vang khan\Ung khan\ - a Chinese title,
Sangun\son of Vang khan\-general -a Chinese title,
Mark - a Christian name.


There was no such thing as a Mongol, when the titles were first used.
Gokturks - 5 century AD
Mongol - 12th century AD

700 years of difference, and you're claiming something based on your second rated sources.
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Aza
post Sep 16 2011, 05:39 AM
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My mom is from Khalkh-Kirgizs.

Altaic/Nomadic/Central/Northern Asians - Altayans, Kyrgyz, Kazakh, Yakut, Siberian Tatars(Turkics), Khalkha, Oirads, Kalmyk(Mongolics), Manchu, Evenks(Tungids)+Buryats.Tuva, Nogai,karakalpak,some uzbeks= GOG AND MAGOG. beerchug.gif

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Saiak
post Sep 16 2011, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE
My mom is from Khalkh-Kirgizs.


Wow, that's surprising!!!
Do any of Mongolian Kyrgyz still speak in Turkic, or do they have a separate Mongolian dialect.? I guess they're quite indistinguishable from other Khalkhs, the same as Central Asian Kyrgyz are.
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Aza
post Sep 16 2011, 11:27 PM
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She used to speak central mongolian dialect. She was a khalkh-mongolian from Zavkhan aimak.
I remember that sometimes she and her father used strange words \could be turkic words\which for me and the father wern't clear. At that time i did not care on it.Because i was a young. They except central mongolians also among the western Mongols dorbet,bayat, myangat .е and also among darkhat and tsaatan people of Khubsugul aimak. Today they all - Mongols. Only kyrgyzs of tsaatan are stil speaking turkic...

Khalkh-Kyrgyz people in Bayankhongor aimak of Mongolia.

http://forum-eurasica.ru/index.php?/topic/...8C/page__st__20

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Aza
post Sep 16 2011, 11:49 PM
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Kalkas-Khalkh-Mongols.
Mongous -Inner Mongols.

http://forum-eurasica.ru/index.php?/galler...B3%D0%BE%D0%B4/

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Aza
post Sep 18 2011, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (CAsian @ Sep 11 2011, 12:45 AM) *
I guess the Mongolians have a lot of relations with tunguso-manchju people. Even your languages sound a bit similar IMHO.

The Kazakh and central-Mongolian languages
Close relationship, the short comparative analysis



http://forum-eurasica.ru/index.php?/topic/...8B%D0%BA%D0%B8/


If mongolian similar to manchju,so kazakh also must be similar to manchju. laugh.gif

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