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Our Group are the True HMONGS! DNA Data inside.
crabdonut
post Sep 24 2011, 01:04 AM
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QUOTE (cocopuffchild @ Sep 24 2011, 01:02 AM) *
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I would have to say some Hmong are Austro-Asiatic (Tai-kradaic) and some Hmong are Altaic, but majority of Hmong are O3d with variance of O3.


Since when were languages part of DNA? And since when was Austro-Asiatic language the same as Tai?
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cocopuffchild
post Sep 24 2011, 01:15 AM
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QUOTE (crabdonut @ Sep 24 2011, 02:04 AM) *
Since when were languages part of DNA? And since when was Austro-Asiatic language the same as Tai?


tai-kradaic and austro-asiatic are linguistic groups, but genetically, these two groups share pretty much the same genetic diversity due
to close proximity of geography.

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crabdonut
post Sep 24 2011, 01:22 AM
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QUOTE (cocopuffchild @ Sep 24 2011, 02:15 AM) *
tai-kradaic and austro-asiatic are linguistic groups, but genetically, these two groups share pretty much the same genetic diversity due
to close proximity of geography.



Based on this, I see that Hmong is also in close proximity of geography and Indians as well. So now what?
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souphounavong
post Sep 24 2011, 01:23 AM
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QUOTE (thumbsUp @ Sep 24 2011, 12:58 AM) *
Oops maybe I was mixing it up with the other two DNA threads.

Just think the wording is funny. In the other thread 25% C haplogroup = "possible Altai ancestry" ZOMG!!
But when it's 30% O2a haplogroup it = "assimilated austro-asiatic people". embarassedlaugh.gif

It's the same in Vietnamese chat. I guess having Altai blood is currently "in"?



Well, there is nothing to wooooooooooooooooow about O2 because Southeast Asia is full of that right? We only woooooooooooooooooooooow to the Haplogroup C because of the fact that Hmong had resided in southern China for the last 2000 years and the Haplogroup C is from the north. Of course we would woooooooooooooow

FYI, the 30% O2a Miao are from Yunnan. That's because Yunnan is home to Austro-Asiatic populations. Hmong and other Miao groups carry less of this O2a haplogroup. But that is not the point, the point is that when there is a haplogroup from the far now, it intrigues right? Durrrr?
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cocopuffchild
post Sep 24 2011, 01:26 AM
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QUOTE (crabdonut @ Sep 24 2011, 02:22 AM) *
Based on this, I see that Hmong is also in close proximity of geography and Indians as well. So now what?



Sorry, the Himalayas divided the two countries.

Tibetans are closer to Indian. There are no Hmong buddhists.
There are Tai buddhists, Khmer buddhists, Han buddhist, but 0 Hmong buddhists.
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crabdonut
post Sep 24 2011, 01:37 AM
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QUOTE (cocopuffchild @ Sep 24 2011, 02:26 AM) *
Sorry, the Himalayas divided the two countries.

Tibetans are closer to Indian. There are no Hmong buddhists.
There are Tai buddhists, Khmer buddhists, Han buddhist, but 0 Hmong buddhists.


What countries? You mean Tibet and India?

What Indians are we talking about? And why are we suddenly talking about buddhism? Actually you don't have to answer that bc you're using that as some sort of prove that there is an imaginary line dividing Hmong-Mien from Austro-Asiatic and Tai speakers but which did not divide Austro-Asiatic and Tai speakers linguistically and genetically. Right. icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyway, bye.
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cocopuffchild
post Sep 24 2011, 01:39 AM
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Tibit is part of Chine? or is it not?

Don't confused yourself.

This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 24 2011, 01:39 AM
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xaithoj
post Sep 24 2011, 12:26 PM
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QUOTE (souphounavong @ Sep 23 2011, 10:29 PM) *
I never said that of the contrary. I only wanted to point out that Hmong-Mien diverged from Mon-Khmer while Sino-Tibetans diverged from Hmong-Mien even further.

One question to you. You used the article to make a point however, you disagree with the main findings in the study. How and why is that? Or is it just that i'm misunderstanding?

The study clearly stated that it is a one way street of migration for the gene marker O3. Mon-Khmer ---> Hmong-Mien ---> Sino-Tibetan. Both MK and HM samples show the most correspondence to the "original" O3 marker.

Furthermore, i never said that HM = MK. I only said that O3 originated from MK populations and that the HM marker O3(M7) derived from a source that happens to be MK.

Now, my question is, because O3 derived from MK to HM and ST, also the fact that MK's dominant Ydna is O2, what does that tell us?


[The study clearly stated that it is a one way street of migration for the gene marker O3. Mon-Khmer ---> Hmong-Mien ---> Sino-Tibetan. Both MK and HM samples show the most correspondence to the "original" O3 marker.]

gene flow is rarely ever a 'one way street'. we're not talking hundreds of years here, we're talking thousands and tens of thousands; so there's ample opportunity for a little admixture. the 'gene flow' is so solidly 'one way' because the O3 peoples were headed in 'one way', north. at every stop during their way north, they interacted with the O2 people around them and left their dna mark. data from these dna marks are what helps determine the gene flow. when they mention 'flow', you may be thinking of it like one big pool of water and then a little flowing out from it. that's inaccurate. you should look at it like a trail of bread crumb that points in one direction.

[Now, my question is, because O3 derived from MK to HM and ST, also the fact that MK's dominant Ydna is O2, what does that tell us?]

it tells us O2 established themselves first and in whatever way 'claimed' the lands we know today as southeast asia. you may be thinking that O3 peoples were an integral part of the O2 tribe, but data suggests otherwise. the very fact that the majority of O3 people left the south is proof that they did not see themselves as O2 or an integral part of O2; otherwise they would have stayed like the rest of the O2. the few downstream mutations of O2 tells us they established their cohesive identities much earlier than O3 (its not until many mutations that hmong and han emerge O3a3b O3a3c, while O2a are already mon-khmer); so it may be that although O3 people wanted to stay in the south, O2 people had already viewed them as 'outsiders' and more or less pushed them north.
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cocopuffchild
post Sep 24 2011, 11:18 PM
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I can't believe in the Hmong Guizhou are larger than any other groups.
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austronesian0sai...
post Sep 27 2011, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (xaithoj @ Sep 22 2011, 03:43 PM) *
your table's wrong. this is how the O y-dna 'asian' family tree and their lineages actually are.

O - (M175) the original asian tribe that broke away.

...O1 (MYS2.2) - an asian tribe that descended from O.
......O1a (M119) - O1 descendant, found mostly in austronesians.

...O2 (P31) - an asian tribe that descended from O.
......O2a (M95) - O2 descendant, the 'austro-asiatic' peoples of southeast asia.
.........O2a1 (M88) - O2a descendant, the tai, mon-khmer and viet peoples.
......O2b (SRY465) - O2 descendant that went up north, found mainly in korea.
.........O2b1 (47z) - O2b descendant that crossed over to japan.

...O3 (M122) - an asian tribe that descended from O, 'east asians'.
......O3a (M324) - O3 descendant; culture never developed.
.........O3a1 - O3a descendant; culture never developed.
.........O3a2 - O3a descendant; culture never developed.
.........O3a3 - O3a descendant; culture never developed.
............O3a3a (M159) - O3a3 descendant, culture never developed.
............O3a3b (M7) - O3a3 descendant, hmong-mien.
............O3a3c (M134) - o3a3 descendant, sino-tibetan.

austronesians have dominant O1a y-dna, not O3a3. they may carry O3a3, but it'll be at low percentages. the majority of O3a3 people went north from whom split off O3a3b hmong-mien and O3a3c sino-tibetans. then you have the chinese clouding up the picture because they have brought O3 back into austronesian lands.

we're not saying we are altaic people. we are daxi people. what we're saying is SOME of our people have altaic ancestry from y-dna C (M217). altaic males came into our culture at some point along our history, or at many points along our history, because their genes are a part of our hmong nationality now.



Actually the Ami-tribe, where all Austronesian descend is 35% O3a3.


The distribution of O3a3 among Austronesians is very significant. It's not low frequency at all. I guess if 19-35% is considered low frequency in your book. Since it's has an extremely high frequency in Western samoa, I'd be willing to bet 1 million dollars that it's not evidence of Chinese merchants.





This post has been edited by austronesian0sailor: Sep 27 2011, 06:06 PM
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xaithoj
post Sep 27 2011, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (austronesian0sailor @ Sep 27 2011, 05:53 PM) *
Actually the Ami-tribe, where all Austronesian descend is 35% O3a3.


The distribution of O3a3 among Austronesians is very significant. It's not low frequency at all. I guess if 19-35% is considered low frequency in your book. Since it's has an extremely high frequency in Western samoa, I'd be willing to bet 1 million dollars that it's not evidence of Chinese merchants.





ONE aboriginal austronesian tribe in taiwan shows a high percentage of O3a3 at 35.9% and you're going to apply that data to ALL austronesians and claim that O3a3 is a significant ancestry for them? here's the breakdown for that tribe.

Ami
41.0% O1a1
35.9% O3a3
17.9% O1a2

so out of the 9 aboriginal austronesian tribes in taiwan, only 3 carry O3a3 at 35.9%, 17.4% and 4%. the other 6 carry 0% ancestry from O3a3. so your interpretation of that data is:

[The distribution of O3a3 among Austronesians is very significant. It's not low frequency at all].

so i guess what you're saying is that those other 6 tribes that have 0% O3a3 ancestry are really not austronesian? the true austronesians are the 3 tribes that have O3a3 ancestry? just ignore the fact that all the tribes are dominant O1 y-dna at 100%, 100%, 100%, 92%, 91.7%, 83.3%, 82.5%, 60% and 58.9%? i guess if that's how you want to interpret the data, that's your prerogative. me personally, i see 6 austronesian tribes that have 0% ancestry from O3a3, so it's gonna take a lot more data than 1 tribe at 35.9% to prove that O3a3 is a 'significant' ancestry for austronesians. what about all the austronesians in indonesia, malaysia, all of oceania? sounds like you're austronesian yourself and it affects you personally so you have the right to look at your ancestry however you choose. trying to convince me makes no matter, go and try to convince those 6 tribes with 0% O3a3 ancestry.

This post has been edited by xaithoj: Sep 27 2011, 08:18 PM
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souphounavong
post Sep 27 2011, 10:05 PM
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^ True. The claim that "The distribution of O3a3 among Austronesians is very significant" is highly skewed by a single tribe, the Ami. We can say that the Ami tribe may have had significant influence and contact with O3 people but we cannot say that for all Austronesian nor aboriginals.

From the looks of it, the Ami and Bunun show the most difference when compared with other aboriginals due to their significant share of O2a1a and O3a3 specific Y chromosomes.
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austronesian0sai...
post Sep 28 2011, 12:18 AM
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it's found in of Filipinos and high frequency among western Indonesia. I posted a link that showed P201 has a high frequency in western indonesia. did you even look at it? It's the first link. my iPhone can't access, so I don't know if it's broken or not. iPhones are iffy sometimes

Agian, O3a3, is found in places where the austronesian expansion occurred, madagascar, western Indonesia, Samoa, Oceania, philipines. It's not found in insignificant levels in these areas. it's barely found in china or any where else. It's almost exclusive To western Indonesia, philipines, the ami tribe, and western Samoa along with various other places in polynesia.

The ami tribe is where all austronesians outside of tawian come from. O1a and O3a3 are both austronesian markers. I don't expect you to care about austronesians because in reality, we are not really Asians and not part of the Asian race culturally, linguistically or physiologically. that doesn't allow to you discard the hard evidence and tell me that your misunderstanding is my own personal problem.



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souphounavong
post Sep 28 2011, 12:46 AM
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QUOTE (austronesian0sailor @ Sep 28 2011, 12:18 AM) *
it's found in of Filipinos and high frequency among western Indonesia. I posted a link that showed P201 has a high frequency in western indonesia. did you even look at it? It's the first link. my iPhone can't access, so I don't know if it's broken or not. iPhones are iffy sometimes

Agian, O3a3, is found in places where the austronesian expansion occurred, madagascar, western Indonesia, Samoa, Oceania, philipines. It's not found in insignificant levels in these areas. it's barely found in china or any where else. It's almost exclusive To western Indonesia, philipines, the ami tribe, and western Samoa along with various other places in polynesia.

The ami tribe is where all austronesians outside of tawian come from. O1a and O3a3 are both austronesian markers. I don't expect you to care about austronesians because in reality, we are not really Asians and not part of the Asian race culturally, linguistically or physiologically. that doesn't allow to you discard the hard evidence and tell me that your misunderstanding is my own personal problem.


Your first link didn't show. Can you link it again?

I think the O3a3 in Austronesians is similar to the Hmong-Mien O3a3b (M7) in that both are rare in other populations. This is because both are probably more "original" to the origin and that others may had derived from this original source to other East Asians.

As stated in the article," [...] the novel haplotypes in the periphery of the network are mostly in Sino-Tibetan populations while Hmong-Mien and Mon-Khmer were much closer to the origin, thus displaying the similar hierarchical structure as haplogroup O3a3b-M7[...] the MK haplotypes were closest to the origin of the network genetically and are located in the southernmost area geographically, suggesting the migration of O3a3b started in the ancestors of MK region from the south. The HM haplotypes were further away (indicated by more mutation steps) from the network origin, and are located north of MK populations geographically. The ST haplotypes, which are most distant to the origin genetically, are located further north to those of HM" (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0024282)
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xaithoj
post Sep 28 2011, 03:03 PM
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QUOTE (austronesian0sailor @ Sep 28 2011, 12:18 AM) *
it's found in of Filipinos and high frequency among western Indonesia. I posted a link that showed P201 has a high frequency in western indonesia. did you even look at it? It's the first link. my iPhone can't access, so I don't know if it's broken or not. iPhones are iffy sometimes

Agian, O3a3, is found in places where the austronesian expansion occurred, madagascar, western Indonesia, Samoa, Oceania, philipines. It's not found in insignificant levels in these areas. it's barely found in china or any where else. It's almost exclusive To western Indonesia, philipines, the ami tribe, and western Samoa along with various other places in polynesia.

The ami tribe is where all austronesians outside of tawian come from. O1a and O3a3 are both austronesian markers. I don't expect you to care about austronesians because in reality, we are not really Asians and not part of the Asian race culturally, linguistically or physiologically. that doesn't allow to you discard the hard evidence and tell me that your misunderstanding is my own personal problem.


i'm 'discarding' hard evidence? looks to me like you're the one 'discarding' hard evidence. how can you say that O3a3 is an AUSTRONESIAN 'marker' when 6 out of 9 AUSTRONESIAN tribes in taiwan have 0% of O3a3? let me repeat 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, ZERO, ZERO, ZERO, ZERO, ZERO, ZERO percentage of O3a3? how can you claim that O3a3 is a significant ancestry for AUSTRONESIANS when 6 out of 9 AUSTRONESIAN tribes in taiwan show 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, ZERO, ZERO, ZERO, ZERO, ZERO, ZERO percent O3a3 ancestry? maybe they show up as 10% or 20% or 30% on your screen but on mine they are 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 0%.

maybe you should stop making blanket statements for all austronesians and say instead: philipinos have O3a3 ancestry or western indonesians have O3a3 ancestry. but to audaciously state that AUSTRONESIANS have significant O3a3 ancestry when your own data shows that in taiwan alone, 6 out of 9 AUSTRONESIAN tribes DO NOT carry O3a3, is beyond reason.

Atayal, AUSTRONESIAN, 100% O1 y-dna. WHERE IS THEIR O3a3? you claim "O3a3 is a significant ancestry for AUSTRONESIANS," so WHERE IS THEIR O3a3?
Tsou, AUSTRONESIAN, 100% O1 y-dna. WHERE IS THEIR O3a3? you claim "O3a3 is a significant ancestry for AUSTRONESIANS," so WHERE IS THEIR O3a3?
Rukai, AUSTRONESIAN, 100% O1 y-dna. WHERE IS THEIR O3a3? you claim "O3a3 is a significant ancestry for AUSTRONESIANS," so WHERE IS THEIR O3a3?
Saisiat, AUSTRONESIAN, 91.7% O1 y-dna. WHERE IS THEIR O3a3? you claim "O3a3 is a significant ancestry for AUSTRONESIANS," so WHERE IS THEIR O3a3?
Yami, AUSTRONESIAN, 83.3% O1 y-dna. WHERE IS THEIR O3a3? you claim "O3a3 is a significant ancestry for AUSTRONESIANS," so WHERE IS THEIR O3a3?
Bunun, AUSTRONESIAN, 60.7% O1 y-dna. WHERE IS THEIR O3a3? you claim "O3a3 is a significant ancestry for AUSTRONESIANS," so WHERE IS THEIR O3a3?
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glVoix
post Sep 30 2011, 12:57 AM
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Hi.

I would like to add that this thread has been of a great and interesting read. Careers in this field or just spare time? biggrin.gif

Also, man that link to tojsiab has made me really love Hmong people.. on the outside and inside and all laughs. biggrin.gif
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qeej
post Oct 2 2011, 04:22 PM
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lol spams
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qeej
post Oct 5 2011, 07:21 PM
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peb mi kwv tij hmoob es hmoob es
cas nim nco nco nej nco nej es
ib leej ncaim mus ib leej ib sab ntuj
peb mi kwv tij hmoob es hmoob es
poob pub thooj lub mi qab ntuj no
yuav cia kuv niam kuv txiv tseg
ncaim qub teb qub zog nrog mi kab mi noog
peb mi kwv tij hmoob es.....
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BurdenOfAges
post Nov 6 2011, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (souphounavong @ Sep 24 2011, 01:23 AM) *
Well, there is nothing to wooooooooooooooooow about O2 because Southeast Asia is full of that right? We only woooooooooooooooooooooow to the Haplogroup C because of the fact that Hmong had resided in southern China for the last 2000 years and the Haplogroup C is from the north. Of course we would woooooooooooooow

FYI, the 30% O2a Miao are from Yunnan. That's because Yunnan is home to Austro-Asiatic populations. Hmong and other Miao groups carry less of this O2a haplogroup. But that is not the point, the point is that when there is a haplogroup from the far now, it intrigues right? Durrrr?


A correction: paternal haplogroup C isn't from the north (the mainstream opinion regarding C is that it was a part of a great migration from Africa along the southern coasts of South Asia and Southeast Asia, and that it expanded to northern Asia from there). Certain branches of C (especially C3c), however, are. With respect to C3, which is the haplogroup under discussion here, there are mixed opinions about its point of origin. It could be northern; it could be southern. In either case, it does not require descent from northern Asians.

What the studies presented here generally show is that Hmong are a diverse group. Hmong from different regions have different paternal DNA profiles. For example, the Hmong in Yunnan, despite being perhaps the most related to Hmong Daw in dialect, yet exhibit a rather different haplogroup profile. It also seems that, with respect to the C3 question, C3 is in greatest abundance among the Hmong Daw - aka the Hmong in Southeast Asia - but is found in much lesser quantities in Hmong in China, and is present in the lowest quantities in Yunnan Hmong, where earlier posters mentioned the possibility of Mongol admixture. If C3 among Hmong Daw came from interactions with Mongol armies sent to the Yunnan region, why do Yunnan Hmong have so little C3?

In any case, I'd advise caution before looking deeper into it, as with genetic studies the possibility of sample bias (which leads to non-representative genetic profiles) is ever present, especially with groups as diverse as the Hmong.

This post has been edited by BurdenOfAges: Nov 6 2011, 06:13 PM
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yumyumgood
post May 29 2012, 07:09 PM
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