Our Group are the True HMONGS! DNA Data inside. Options

[cocopuffchild]

Miao Hunan - ntsej muag Hmoob


Miao Guizhou - ntsej muag Hmoob


Miao Yunnan - ntsej muag Hmoob


Hmong Daw - ntsej muag Hmoob

[souphounavong]

^ that is so skewed. you deliberately chose a non-typical looking hmong to represent the Hmong Daw group. -__-

[bioshock]

Hmong Daw - ntsej muag Hmoob

Haha, good one. Are you White? Yes, I'm White Hmong...guess you made it literally "Hmoob Dawb", huh? LOL.

[cocopuffchild]

Hmoob Daw in the house. LOL

Real Hmong Daw yo! blond hair and blue eyes!

This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 19 2011, 10:37 AM

[ozyman]

5000 years past yet you guys never invented your own writing system for your own language.

so i've been wanting to see a dna study done where the major groups of hmong/miao were all separated and tested for dna. holy cow i found one! there's some very interesting data. the dna is broken down by groups and province but the ones that will interest us the most are: yunnan, guizhou, hunan and hmong daw groups. http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%...al.pone.0024282

the y-dna (paternal) results, broken down by known population associations that are of interest:

Hmong Daw (our group)
33.33% - O3a3b (M7) the 'hmong' marker gene.
25.49% - C (M130) ***see footnote***.
7.84% - O3a3c1 (M117) a new grouping broken down from O3a3c (M134) which is the 'han' chinese marker gene.
7.84% - D1 (M15) found mostly in tibeto-burman peoples.
5.88% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
5.88% - O2a1 (M88) dai, mon-khmer, viet peoples.

Hmong Yunnan (western dialect group, most intelligible to hmong daw)
30.61% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
18.37% - O3 (M122) east asian lineage gene, very widespread.**
12.24% - O3a3b (M7) the 'hmong' marker gene.
6.12% - D1 (M15) found mostly in tibeto-burman peoples.
6.12% - O3a3c1 (M117) pretty much 'han' chinese.
6.12% - O1a (M119) found in austronesian and kradai peoples.
6.12% - C (M130) ***see footnote***.

Hmong Guizhou (central dialect, the largest group: Ayuodou, Yang Geli's people)
24.49% - O3 (M122) east asian lineage gene, very widespread.**
16.33% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
12.24% - O1a (M119) found in austronesian and kradai peoples.
8.16% - C (M130) ***see footnote***.
4.08% - O3a3b (M7) the 'hmong' marker gene.
2.04% - O3a3c1 (M117) pretty much 'han' chinese.

Hmong Hunan (eastern dialect, Song Zuying's people)
24% - O3 (M122) east asian lineage gene, very widespread.**
14% - C (M130) ***see footnote***.
9% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
9% - O3a3c1 (M117) pretty much 'han' chinese.
7% - O3a3c (M134) 'han' chinese.
7% - O1a (M119) found in austronesian and kradai peoples.
5% - O2a1 (M88) dai, mon-khmer, viet peoples.
4% - O3a3b (M7) the 'hmong' marker gene.

**keep in mind that there are other haplogroups which associate with the hmong marker O3a3b (M7) that they probably grouped generically as O3 (M122). in this study, they were focused specifically on O3a3b (M7) and O2a (M95).

***i wish they would of broke the C group down because C1, C2, and C3 are found in very different places. C1 is rare and found in Japan, C2 is found in the southern archipelago in Indonesia, Melanesia, Micronesia and Polynesia, C3 is found in the far north with the Mongols and other northern nomads.

i think until someone does a dna study of hmong/miao by each individual group's clothing style, we won't ever see an accurate picture as there are just too many groups in each geographic location like yunnan, guizhou and hunan. also, genetics just determines what you will look like; culture determines who you are. there's no question that all these groups share the same culture.

[cocopuffchild]

5000 years past yet you guys never invented your own writing system for your own language.

Urm dummy, human didn't exist for 5000 yrs? Where did such skewed and retarded infomation came from?

A Mexican speaking Spanish is Spanish. A Manchu speaking Chinese is Han Chinese. Yes, we all know you're confused like the Mexicans.

Just because you don't know who you are, doesn't mean you have to make fun of us.

It's like a Mexican (mongoloid/caucasoid), making fun of Chinese (mongoloid), ching chang chong, small eyes, so forth.......

Do you practice shamanism?


We know you're a pure breed. We understand.

You know what writing system Hmong people use? They use ENGLISH aka LATIN BASED SCRIPTS!!! ENGLISH, it's the father language of all people in the world, not no outdated cavemen symbols that you're so proud of.

This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 19 2011, 12:50 PM

[cocopuffchild]

if human only existed for 5000 years? damn, that means we must be alien. lol

how can human only existed for 5000 years? evolution doesn't make sense.

oh wait, are you talking about your people that only existed for 5000 years?

Hmong people believe they existed longer than that. When shamanism started to exist, we had already existed.
Let me see, shamanism was practice by the earliest human ancestors which was million years ago.

egyptian don't use hieroglyph anymore, they use arabic
mexican use spanish
pali/sankrit are still used by various southeast asian countries

using these so-called Hanzi doesn't mean $hit. LOL
i can use them if i wanted to, but i prefer to use English instead.

This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 19 2011, 12:55 PM

[hmoobconan]

I have never heard of Hmong people saying that Hmong leng is the original dialect, except Hmong Leng themselves.

I've heard that various Miao groups from China consider Bai Miao (Hmongb Laug) as an older branch of the Miao people. Well, this is mention in the book written by Thomas S. Vang.
Historically, white Hmong were the first to leave China.

Hmong Leng and Hmong Daw are in fact subdialects only. One is not older than the other, or one is not original over the other.

Yunnan Miao probably refers to the Hua Miao. As many scholars in China divided the Miao Nationality into four major groups (Hmongb, Amao, Hmu and Xongb).

You should start asking every old person you meet then. I'm pretty sure I've heard an old white Hmong man said that Hmong green/leng is the original dialect due to whatever reason.

[austronesian0sai...]

The Hmong marker is a brother to the Austronesian Marker (y-Dna O3a3)? I don't really like how this DNA stuff is working out. Hmongs and Austronesians couldn't be further apart in language, culture and physical appearance. This so-called "science" makes it seem like only 5000 to 10000 years ago, we were all in the same tribe, which is downright hilarious to even imagine.

We need to stop letting westerners determine science, at least the genome of Asia. It needs to be done by Asian people. This Y-DNA story, which i'm largely ignorant of admintedly, makes it look like We, Austronesians are the "uncles" of hmongs and Han-chinese. That's absolutely impossible, and I refuse to believe it. I'm sure you Hmongs would certainly agree.

I think we should protest the developments in the classifications of Y-dna O3. It doesn't make any sense.

[xaithoj]

Just saying. What if group A and group B had common origins however, group B was not able to preserve much of its Y DNA due to warfare and resorted to adoption of other groups. In the end, group B would expect to have a lesser percentage of a certain Y DNA compared to group A.

Now, you guys cannot simply rule out that group A must be closest to the "originals" and conclude that they were able to preserve much of their linguistic/cultural entities. We all know culture is fluid. Both group do not need to maintain a certain genetic makeup to preserve these cultural and linguistic customs.

Group B could only carry 10% of a certain marker and be as "original" as group A just that the only difference is that group A carries 35% of whatever marker specified.

you're thinking in terms of static numbers even though you put a percentage to it. with y-dna, we are dealing with absolute percentages and ratios, not static numbers. you're equating the dominant y-dna of Group B to a percentage like 30%. however, you apply static number calculation to it and imagine that by war, the number gets decreased to 15%. then by adoption, it gets diluted to 10%. that's not how it works! we're dealing with a dynamic population that is always birthing/dieing/joining/leaving, so only the laws of percentages and ratios can apply. here's an example of a y-dna pool simplified to make it easier to understand.

30% - A <--a simple letter to represent the y-dna.
20% - B
10% - C
10% - D
10% - E
10% - F
10% - G

we're dealing with absolute percentages and ratios, so as a whole we have to reach 100%. 30%+20%+10%+10%+10%+10%+10%=100%. this 100% represents a complete picture of the nation. now we'll apply a small and simple population number to it: 200,000 with 100,000 males.

30% - A - 30,000
20% - B - 20,000
10% - C - 10,000
10% - D - 10,000
10% - E - 10,000
10% - F - 10,000
10% - G - 10,000

thats the breakdown of our male population by ancestry. now we'll apply the effects of a war to our nation.

A / 30,000 - 5,000 dead = 25,000
B / 20,000 - 3,000 dead = 17,000
C / 10,000 - 1,000 dead = 9,000
D / 10,000 - 1,000 dead = 9,000
E / 10,000 - 1,000 dead = 9,000
F / 10,000 - 1,000 dead = 9,000
G / 10,000 - 1,000 dead = 9,000

new male population size = 87,000. so in this war, we lost 13% of our male population. this is a really high number. for reference, here are actual death/population percentages from WWII:
britain - .94% / france - 1.35% / germany - 10.5% / usa - .32%
when we sample for y-dna after the war, the new y-dna data is:

28.7% - A - 25,000
19.5% - B - 17,000
10.3% - C - 9,000
10.3% - D - 9,000
10.3% - E - 9,000
10.3% - F - 9,000
10.3% - G - 9,000

as you can see, the devastating war did little to affect the place of the dominant y-dna "A". so now lets add some adoptions from a completely different ethnic with y-dna "H": 30,000 / 15,000 males (a significant adoption in relation to our population; also consider that a true adoption of a whole tribe would mean a much diffused y-dna gene table from them, not a 100% of y-dna "H" like in our example). so that brings our male population to 102,000. the new y-dna data:

24.50% - A - 25,000
16.66% - B - 17,000
14.70% - H - 15,000
08.82% - C - 9,000
08.82% - D - 9,000
08.82% - E - 9,000
08.82% - F - 9,000
08.82% - G - 9,000

our nation's y-dna gene pool now reflects our adoptions, but as you can see, again it makes minimal impact on the dominant y-dna ancestry "A".

to achieve the kind of results you imagine (y-dna "A" falling from 30% to 10%), it takes a MASSIVE influx of an entirely new ethnic (ie y-dna "I"). this kind of influx into a nation is typified only by war with complete and utter subjugation/enslavement. if our nation reaches that point, we would have been essentially absorbed into the nation of the y-dna "I" people and their culture. that's why there is such a strong association of culture to the dominant y-dna marker of a nationality.

through natural and steady occurrences typical to a society: occasional wars, adoption patterns, immigration, assimilation and so forth, the dominant y-dna gene of that nation will only ever experience minimal fluctuations and recover faster than the others.

This post has been edited by xaithoj: Sep 19 2011, 03:55 PM

[souphounavong]

^ just remember those stories from our parents and grandparents. The Chinese would kill all males INCLUDING boys with groin the size of pea. This is literally the saying of our grandparents as they fled China.

What does this imply? An attempt of total annihilation of an ethnic group's male population.

[cocopuffchild]

The Chinese would kill all males? What Chinese are you talking about?

Even Chinese themselves are mixed. Anyways, regarding this thread,
it has great info. The new genetic research is very interesting.

M7 (o3d) proves something very interesting that I've researched in the past.


Heard of bottleneck? The geography of the Hmong indicates that the Hmong migration started recently,
probably during Qing, but before that, the Hmong ancestors were already settled down.

Marriages between Hmong and other ethnic groups were prohibited; however, marriages between a Hmong male and a non-Hmong female is okay,
so I'm not surprised. Adoption is also common.

Regarding Altaic (Mongolian) ancestry, I won't exclude the possible theory that many Mongolian, after the collapsed of Yuan assimilated into the Hmong culture.
You can see this among the Manchu, which assimilated into the Chinese culture after the collapsed of Qing.
This also supports the fact that many Hmong did also assimilated into the Chinese culture. No surprised.

This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 19 2011, 11:04 PM

[souphounavong]

^ usually when we mention of "chinese" we refer to the Qing era. That's the era where i think most execution and war took place.

True. The Hmong ancestors had settled down for a long time. In fact, studies found that for the last 2000 years Miao had been living in southern China.

Majority of Miao mtDNA shows strong southern lineages just as you mentioned about Hmong male and non-Hmong female.

[cocopuffchild]

well, we're all mixed.

We're all one people regardless.

Even I acknowledge

Hmong father + black mother = child is Hmong.
Hmong mother + black father = child is black.

[cocopuffchild]

they should really do a genetic research on this hmong kid

[txoomsuab2]

they should really do a genetic research on this hmong kid

i have naturally blonde cousins to, alot of them actually and they stay blonde until they old to, cool and weird

[txoomsuab2]

blonde hmong people
http://seaif.typepad.com/seaif_weblog/2008...oul-of-hmo.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/boaz/347700772/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/edhedley/3064228940/
http://www.travelblog.org/Photos/3827672

[souphounavong]

^ the thing with blonde hmong is that they do not look like typical Hmong but instead, their facial features resemble Caucasians.

I have seen some Hmong with orange and yellowish hair before but there is something distinctive about them. They do not resemble the typical Hmong as we all would imagine.

[xaithoj]

if you wanna see modern blonde hmong peeps, just surf the photo section at http://tojsiab.com/

i used to see one like every month.

*heh* - i just surfed and there's one right now just a few pages in: http://photo.itojsiab.com/photo_show.php?p...db5e4b97fc2af39

*2nd edit* "they should really do a genetic research on this hmong kid"

they did. i remember reading somewhere that there was a dna test done on some of the natural blondes in the US. they were trying to determine if it was caused by having caucasian genes. the caucasian genes were ruled after they saw the results. so basically, no one knows why it happens, it just does.

that leads to my other point: we need to stop trying to associate it with anything else out there and just accept it for what it is. its a unique feature of being hmong. end of story.

This post has been edited by xaithoj: Sep 20 2011, 06:11 PM

[txoomsuab2]

^ the thing with blonde hmong is that they do not look like typical Hmong but instead, their facial features resemble Caucasians.

I have seen some Hmong with orange and yellowish hair before but there is something distinctive about them. They do not resemble the typical Hmong as we all would imagine.

are u sure about that because every blonde hmong i've encountered looks like ur typical hmong person with blonde hair