We have Altaic-Mongol Ancestry! DNA Proof Inside. Options

[xaithoj]

wow, i made a major break-thru on the dna ancestry picture for hmong daw (hmong dawb) and it includes a significant portion of Altaic ancestry, ie Mongols!!!

so the hmong daw y-dna ancestral breakdown is as follows. the data is from a very recent 2011 report: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%...al.pone.0024282

Hmong Daw
33.33% - O3a3b (M7) the hmong marker gene.
25.49% - C (M130) ***possible mongol ancestry***
7.84% - O3a3c1 (M117) han chinese.
7.84% - D1 (M15) found mostly in tibeto-burman peoples.
5.88% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
5.88% - O2a1 (M88) tai, mon-khmer, viet peoples.

because the 2011 Plos One report did not break out the C (M130) dna data, it was just speculation. the C could be C1, C2 or C3. i needed to find concrete evidence of what kind of C dna it was. i did! its contained in a recent 2010 Karafet TM report: https://viewer.zoho.com/docs/ndaMDc

in this report, the C dna is broken down for hmong/miao. we tested positive for both C (RPS4Y) austronesian and C (M217) altaic. the ratio is 1 to 2 (the ratio and actual results are just coincidence). so if we apply that ratio to the PlosOne report, it becomes 16.75% C (M217) and 8.75% C (RPS4Y). the full hmong daw ancestry can now be shown as:

Hmong Daw
33.33% - O3a3b (M7) the hmong marker gene.
16.75% - C (M217) altaic-mongol.
8.75% - C (RPS4Y) austronesian.
7.84% - O3a3c1 (M117) han chinese.
7.84% - D1 (M15) found mostly in tibeto-burman peoples.
6.00% - N1c (M46/Tat) found mostly in yakut peoples.
5.88% - O2a (M95) austro-asiatics.
5.88% - O2a1 (M88) tai, mon-khmer, viet peoples.

there you go my hmong brothers and sisters. finally we have proof of our altaic-mongol ancestry!!!

*edited for the N1c yakut ancestry from 'table S1' XLS of the PlosOne report linked above.

This post has been edited by xaithoj: Oct 12 2011, 11:27 PM

[KraterosHellas]

i think everyone in mainland asia have at least some altaic/mongol blood. these nomads invaded and made inroads in virtually every possible direction...

[souphounavong]

i think everyone in mainland asia have at least some altaic/mongol blood. these nomads invaded and made inroads in virtually every possible direction...

^
Agrees.

@ Xaithoj, i think you're searching a little bit too much there. When that becomes the case, every little detail we find intrigues us in each and every way. I'm sure many other Asian groups also share similar percentage of Altaic blood in them as well.

Have you looked at northern Han? I'm sure their share of Altaic blood is at a much more significant portion as they are more related to Mongols and Xiongnu than their southern Han counterparts according to genetic studies.

[xaithoj]

you guys are correct about the proliferation of the mongol gene. however, its appearance in the data i've collected; and the data itself, is significant for a number of reasons:

1. hmong people have made the claim of a northern ancestry. some have done this out of ignorance because hmong and mongolia have the same phonology. others have done it earnestly because of oral tradition; which, after a few generations just becomes hearsay. no matter which, there has never been any concrete evidence to support their claim and they were often ridiculed for it. i gathered this academic data to support the claim of northern ancestry and the data gathered so far pointed to the fact that it was a significant ancestry and deserved further investigation.

2. hmong people have always had a yearning to understand their ancestry and history. without a written language, everything related to ancestry and history were passed down by word of mouth. this oral tradition is vastly inferior to a written form and so loses lots of detail and gains lots of inaccuracies. hence, this search for self and identity has been a pre-occupation for many hmong people, but has never been totally satisfied. i have finally been able to piece one side of that mystery together in the form of the most comprenhensive data yet published on hmong ancestry. up until now, there has never been data that was specific to our group of hmong people. the data was always generically labeled miao-yao. without a solid foundation, how can you build a house? without solid ancestral academic data, how can you even begin to understand your own ancestry? that foundation needs to be laid and i present the data i've collected as the most solid foundation yet for further academic interests for hmong people.

3. i'm not concerned with other ethnics or nationalities. they have governing bodies and institutions that are focused solely on this type of research with budgets that i could never achieve in a 100 lifetimes. hmong people completely lack such things. we have to scrape and scrunge for every morsel of academic knowledge pertaining to our race, our culture, our ancestry and our history for ourselves. we gladly take these droppings and make the most of them. we have to start somewhere and that somewhere is here in forums like these where academic knowledge can be exchanged and shared and passed on and kept in the magic of cyberspace where the next person can build upon it and expand our understanding of ourselves even more.

[ElapsePride]

^
Agrees.

@ Xaithoj, i think you're searching a little bit too much there. When that becomes the case, every little detail we find intrigues us in each and every way. I'm sure many other Asian groups also share similar percentage of Altaic blood in them as well.

Have you looked at northern Han? I'm sure their share of Altaic blood is at a much more significant portion as they are more related to Mongols and Xiongnu than their southern Han counterparts according to genetic studies.

No, almost every DNA analysis I've read so far suggest otherwise, that is neither northern Chinese nor southerns Chinese possess typical Altaic , aka, Mongol maker, however, both have significant potation of Han maker, O3, on the other hand, southern Chinese do possess more significant SEA attributes

This post has been edited by ElapsePride: Sep 18 2011, 04:53 AM

[souphounavong]

Having Altaic ancestry does not necessary suggest origin.

As found by the study on Hmong-Mein DNA , Hmong-Mien had a southern origin and had dwelled in southern China for the last 2000 years ( Wen et al 2004). Having a "significant" percentage of Altaic ancestry only support the findings that Miao people may have more contact with northern mongoliods as suggested in the study. The Miao from Hunan had the most northern ancestry. The further away the migration and settlement, the less northern ancestry. Surmise to say that Miao from Yunnan have least northern ancestry.

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/3/725.full

This post has been edited by souphounavong: Sep 18 2011, 06:43 PM

[cocopuffchild]

^ all people have different origins even if they're from the same ethnic group. A Hmong with northern origin can only proves one thing (that individual's paternal ancestor was probably assimilated). There are many different ways to understand DNA and origins.

What about Hmong individuals of Khmu, Lao, Yi, Mongolian or Chinese descent? What do they consider themselves? Culturally Hmong, but DNA shows something else.

DNA is fixed, while culture is fluid; however, DNA within an ethnic group is too diverse to even make a statement about the origin of an ethnic group. It only helps to explain the interaction/migration between various ethnic groups in the past.

Having altaic ancestry just mean there are interaction between these various ethnic groups, whether it was a love situation or a hate situation (meaning war, capture, rape, assimilation, marriages, adoption).


If you studied Hmong history, you'll realized that the Hmong ancestors fought against Mongol, Manchu and other northern invaders repeatedly. I'm not surprised, but

thank you Xai for the wonderful and insightful information.

Let not focus on other ethnic groups.


Now that I think about it, interesting how some Hmong are broad, stocky, fat and look quite Altaic to me. LOL

I know Hmong have various physical features, but this face looks like a typical flat Altaic face to me. LOL He's Hmong btw.


This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 18 2011, 08:23 PM

[souphounavong]

^ still doesn't change the fact that Hmong origin is not from Mongolia nor siberia. Just because Hmong have some Altaic ancestry in them it is not significant enough AND, not conclusive enough to say that Hmong came from the north.

Many studies had proven that Hmong had a southern (yangtze river) origin. You could be a Hmong of Mongol descendant but you cannot speak for all. Hmong are from southern China disregard of a few individual and their Altaic ancestry.

The connection of Hmong to Mongolia is a pure phonological fabrication.

This post has been edited by souphounavong: Sep 18 2011, 08:47 PM

[cocopuffchild]

samples of population

Hmong are not from Mongolia.

this only proves interaction.

it depends on who defines geography.

if you're from the yellow, you will consider people from the yangtze as southern.
if you're from the yangtze, you will consider people below the yangtze as southern.
if you're from mongolia, you will consider people from the yellow river as southern.

the notion that yellow river is CENTRAL is due to ethnocentricism.
the notion that zhonguo is the center of the world is due to ethnocentricism.

so, to make it clearer, Hmong are from both yellow and yantze regions, (not northern or southern).

[devils666]

i think everyone in mainland asia have at least some altaic/mongol blood. these nomads invaded and made inroads in virtually every possible direction...

Agreed. EVERYONE in east asia has some mongolian blood. Afterall, Mongols are the father of all Asians.

I hope this doesn't turn into another Altaic Nazi thread. Please don't turn into those K-nationalists who turn their insecurity into "Altaic supremacy" and cry for approval from mongolians and central Asians.

[cocopuffchild]

father of all Asians?
that's an insult to the Hmong people.

[devils666]

father of all Asians?
that's an insult to the Hmong people.

So then is it an insult to say that Africans are the mother of all Humans?

Everyone knows that modern day Asians are a mix of mongoloid and australoid.

[cocopuffchild]

being mixed with Mongoloid doesn't mean you're Mongolian. lol

[devils666]

being mixed with Mongoloid doesn't mean you're Mongolian. lol

where do you think the term "mongoloid" came from?

Modern day Asians are a mix of evenki/mongolians from the northeast and austroloids from the south. The farther south you go, the more austroloid you are. The farther north you go, the more "mongoloid" you are. That's why Koreans have the palest skin and smallest eyes. SEA's have darker skin and bigger eyes.

BTW: what's up with your sig?

This post has been edited by devils666: Sep 19 2011, 02:39 AM

[cocopuffchild]

then you get this?

[devils666]

then you get this?

Michelle Phan is not Hmong, she's Viet. And yes, she has very SEA features: big eyes, big mouth, small chin, etc...she also has a bit of NEA in her, but only a little. Many Korean celebrities need to get plastic surgery to look like her.

[cocopuffchild]

you get China's number 1 famous folk singer Ms. SonG Zuying? she's Hmong



This post has been edited by cocopuffchild: Sep 19 2011, 02:56 AM

[devils666]

you get China's number 1 famous folk singer Ms. SonG Zuying? she's Hmong

wtf are you talking about? michelle phan and that folk singer have nothing to do with this conversation. If you're trying to convince people that Michelle phan is Hmong, then be prepared for many angry Viets.

[cocopuffchild]

cuz you said

a mongoloid (pale skin, slanted eyes like Korean)

an australoid (dark skin, big eyes)


both of them = mitchell phan.

[devils666]

cuz you said

a mongoloid (pale skin, slanted eyes like Korean)

an australoid (dark skin, big eyes)


both of them = mitchell phan.

Yes, Viets and S. Chinese are in a location which is in between NEA and SEA.