South China Sea oil and gas exploration - Vietnam vs. China, S. China Sea Options

[Liang1a]

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90883/7598163.html

India makes waves with South China Sea oil and gas exploration

(Global Times)09:49, September 18, 2011

India's External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna began a 3-day visit to Vietnam on Friday as reports claimed that an Indian state-owned oil producer is set to undertake joint exploration of gas resources in the South China Sea with Vietnam, in spite of protests from Beijing.

The Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) was reported on Thursday to have cemented a deal with Vietnamese firms to exploit oil and gas in two offshore South China Sea oil blocks with Krishna expected to discuss the issue in Vietnam.

The Indian External Affairs Ministry also reportedly claimed on Thursday that the project has been approved by Vietnam, which claims sovereignty over the two blocks, according to the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

Responding to a question concerning these plans, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu responded Thursday that the UN Convention did not give any country the right to expand their own exclusive economic zone and continental shelf into other countries' territories. Jiang also warned countries outside the region to support the resolution of this dispute through bilateral channels.

-------------------------------------------

Liang’s comment:

This is the first time I’ve seen the Chinese government responding with a legal counterpoint based on UNCLOS to refute the baseless claims by other countries that UNCLOS’s provisions gave them the right to invade Chinese sovereign territories. As Jiang Yu rightly pointed out, UNCLOS does not give any country the right to unilaterally extend its EEZ and continental shelf into other countries’ EEZ, continental shelf, territorial seas, internal seas and sovereign territories. Any island that qualifies under UNCLOS’ Article 121 has its own EEZ and continental shelf. This means that every Chinese sovereign island in the S. China Sea has its own 200 nm of EEZ and 350 nm of continental shelf. And where the EEZ of two countries overlap, the right of EEZ of each area belongs to the country that is closest to it. Therefore, it is a misrepresentation for Vietnam and other invading countries to argue that UNCLOS allow them to claim 200 nm of EEZ that includes China’s sovereign islands. Furthermore, China has demarcated its sea boundary by the 9-Dotted Line Map that predates the UNCLOS by many decades and cannot be superseded by any ex post facto laws of UNCLOS. Therefore, Vietnam and other invading countries cannot justify their invasion of Chinese sovereign territories by referring to the UNCLOS. And China has the right to evict any invaders from its sovereign territories with force. Specifically, India’s oil agreement with Vietnam is null and void and subject to seizure by the Chinese government according to China's laws. I'm glad to see the Chinese government responding skillfully with refutations based on international laws. I hope it will follow up with military actions justified by international laws.

It should be quite obvious by now that war in S. China Sea is inevitable. If the Chinese government persists in deluding itself that by presenting an image of benevolence it will ultimately wear down its enemies with loving kindness then it will be taking China down the path of destruction. China's policy has not yielded good results as everyone can see. The reality is China is actually losing long time allies. Even N. Korea is now inching closer to Russia and Russia itself is becoming more inattentive to China's interests. The fact that Russia is increasing its arms sales to India and Vietnam is a slap in China's face that signals the serious failure of China's diplomacy. It is time for the Chinese leaders to stop their self-delusion and show the world that China can and will fight to safeguard its sovereign territories and that the international community has better respect China's sovereignty or face the consequences.

At the same time, the Chinese people should learn a few simple facts such as a war against Vietnam will not collapse China's economy if China confines the fighting to the S. China Sea and not attack Vietnam mainland itself. The Chinese people should also know that combat radius of China's fighters such as J-10 and J-11 can all reach the farthest areas of Nansha A. and therefore China does not need aircraft carriers to begin fighting. The Chinese people should also know that fighting Vietnam and Philippines will not cause world war or turn all the world against China. The world needs China more than China needs the world. At least for now. It has been suggested that EU is facing collapse and only China has the money to bail it out. Specifically, Italy has a debt of some $2 trillion. It is suggested that a consortium be formed to provide $750 billion to the IMF to be distributed to Italy to bail it out. China is expected to contribute half of the money. The importing countries need China's cheap exports while China can expand its economy much more sustainably by phasing out exports. Therefore, China is in a very good position to go to war now to regain its lost sovereign territories while at the same time create a new image of a powerful nation willing to defend itself. Such a powerful image will go a long way toward discouraging further aggressions from puny countries.

The cost of war is minimal and the international community needs China's money and exports. Everything is now favorable to China going to war. Such an opportunity may not come again. China must "take the tide while it serves."

Those who are interested in reading more about China's evidence for claiming sovereignty in S. China Sea can go to the following link:

"S. China Sea - possession is nine-tenth of the law."

http://www.network54.com/Forum/238054/thre...enth+of+the+law.

This post has been edited by Liang1a: Sep 19 2011, 03:44 PM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

very well, as per your invititation. this is my response to Ivy

1. Did UNCLOS recognized GREEDY CHINA SELF CLAIM 90% of South China Sea belongs to China???. The answer is: NO!

1. true. it didnt recognize any of vietnams either. take note the blue line is vietnams

http://www.securitylawbrief.com/.a/6a00e55...cab1a28a4-500pi


and it isnt remotely the 200 nautical limit. (note, 200 nautical miles is roughly 370 km) which btw doesnt magically come into fruition if there are disputes. no country agreed to relinquish their claims upon UNCLOS so saying UNCLOS says this in this disputed issue means nothing. but ill go further into that later.

2. GREEDY CHINA SELF CLAIM 90% of South China Sea is VIOLATED UNCLOS seriously!

2. no it didnt. as i have to keep informing you laymen who never decide to research a topic fully, upon ratification both China and Vietnam said UNCLOS would NOT affect their claims in the South China Sea. thus you cant turn around now and say 'oh your claims violates UNCLOS'.

China Upon ratification (7 June 1996)1/:
The People's Republic of China reaffirms its sovereignty over all its archipelagos and islands as listed in article 2 of the Law of the People's Republic of China on the territorial sea and the contiguous zone, which was promulgated on 25 February 1992.

Declaration under article 298:
The Government of the People's Republic of China does not accept any of the procedures provided for in Section 2 of Part XV of the Convention with respect to all the categories of disputes referred to in paragraph 1 (a) (b) and © of Article 298 of the Convention.


Viet Nam Upon ratification (25 July 1994) 13/:
The National Assembly reiterates Viet Nam's sovereignty over the Hoang Sa and Truong Sa archipelagoes
http://www.un.org/depts/los/convention_agr...eclarations.htm

never has any of the claims in the south china sea been recanted due to UNCLOS. in fact it is the opposite, upon ratification countries reiterated their claims. make sure you understand that.

3. Is there any country in United Nations recognized CHINA SELF CLAIM 90% of South China Sea??? The answer is : NO!

3. wrong, yes there is.


International Recognition Of China's Sovereignty over the Nansha Islands 2004/04/21
http://id.china-embassy.org/eng/ztbd/nhwt/t87273.htm


Ministry of Foreign Affairs of JAPAN: Statement of the First Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of the USSR, A.A. Gromyko, at the Conference in San Francisco (1951)
These agreements recognize the absolutely indisputable rights of China, now the Chinese People's Republic, to territories severed from it. It is an indisputable fact that original Chinese territories which were severed from it, such as Taiwan (Formosa), the Pescadores, the Paracel Islands and other Chinese territories, should be returned to the Chinese People's Republic.
As regards the American-British draft peace treaty with Japan in the part pertaining to territorial questions, the Delegation of the USSR considers it necessary to state that this draft grossly violates the indisputable rights of China to the return of integral parts of Chinese territory: Taiwan, the Pescadores, the Paracel and other islands severed from it by the Japanese militarists.
Meanwhile the fate of these territories should be absolutely clear -- they must be returned to the Chinese people, the master of their land.
http://www.mofa.go.jp/region/europe/russia...92/period4.html


Burma:
Burma's general-turned-President Thein Sein managed the one-two punch while leading a large delegation of ministers and officials from the new regime to Beijing last week.
First he announced that his government fully backs China in its long-running dispute with ASEAN members Vietnam, Philippines, Brunei and Malaysia over the ownership of clusters of islands and reefs in the South China Sea.
http://www.vancouversun.com/opinion/Burma+...8900/story.html

Vietnam: THE HOANG SA (PARACEL) AND TRUONG SA (SPRATLY ARCHIPELAGOES AND INTERNATIONAL LAW MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM HANOI — APRIL 1988

Beijing stresses that Vietnam itself has "recognized" the
Xisha and Nansha Islands as Chinese territories. It cites as
evidence a view expressed in 1956 by Deputy Minister for
Foreign Affairs of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam Ung
Van Khiem, a note in 1958 of Prime Minister Pham Van Dong
approving the statement by the People's Republic of China
on her 12-nautical-mile wide territorial waters and the statement
in 1965 of the Government of the Democratic Republic of
Vietnam protesting the United States' delimitation of the
fighting zone of the U.S. armed forces in Indochina and which
said the zone impinged on "the Xisha maritime area of China".
It is true that the above-mentioned facts have occurred.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=...5mQ&cad=rja

now you can say that the first link were lies. the second link is soviets who dont exist anymore. third link is burma and nobody cares about them. fourth link that vietnam isnt the same vietnam is now. its all excuses, simple fact is you lied or were ignorant. btw, show me who supports vietnams claims in south china sea, EVER?

4. While there is NO country recognized GREEDY CHINA SELF CLAIM 90% of South China Sea belongs to China, how can Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu responded on Thursday that "the UN Convention did not give any country the right to expand their own exclusive economic zone and continental shelf into other countries' territories."???. There is NO COUNTRY RECOGNIZED S. China Sea belong to China, how can GREEDY CHINA claims Vietnam violated UNCLOS???, both you & Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu CAN CHEAT stupid people, but CAN NOT CHEAT people who know UNCLOS! (It's so bad for both Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu & you PRETEND DON'T KNOW China VIOLATED UNCLOS in order to tell lie for China cunning propaganda!)

4. again, you lied or didnt know any better. either way as i already showed in the above points you are wrong. there are several examples of countries recognizing China's claim in the past, DIRECTLY QUOTED from Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the respective countries. make sure you understand that.

5. According to UNCLOS, the UNINHABITED Islands in Paracel & Spratly islands in S. China Sea have the sea territory ONLY 12 nautical miles around the islands, the UNINHABITED Islands CAN NOT have EEZ 200 nautical miles as you LIE in order to CHEAT people for China cunning propagandas!

5. that is an interesting point but liang clearly stated

"Any island that qualifies under UNCLOS’ Article 121 has its own EEZ and continental shelf. "

now either you cant read or you have trouble keeping your amusing emotions in check but there is nothing wrong with his statement.
as for the EEZ for inhabitants, i already considered that, but it works against vietnam and phillipines. rather it helps Taiwan. theres only 1 island there with NATURAL fresh water. it is also the largest. it is called Taiping Island and it belongs to Taiwan. if anyone in there can generate an EEZ it is Taiping.

6. According to Anthropology, DNA tests, Human Migration Map & Archaeology evidences, S. China Sea had BELONGED TO South East Asia people at least 15,000 years BEFORE Han Chinese were born!

6. that is the dumbest thing ive ever heard. apparently with your logic we all have claim in africa. so start carving it up. no you silly laymen. basis for claim and administration can only come from real records and documents and from a legit governing entity. south east asia people have an amazing LACK of historical record and documents (especially in the time frame Chinese historic claims play around in). probably because China was the one that invented paper in the area.
simple fact, NONE of you have historical records with claims that predate Chinese ones. the only debate is whether Chinese record say what they say or if they are reliable. you dont have a chance as far as time is concerned.

7. India explores oil in Vietnam's Exclusive Economic Zone, which WAS RECOGNIZED BY United Nations Convention Laws of the Sea and by MANY COUNTRIES in all over the world. Greedy China is trying to STEAL the sea territory of Philippine, Brunei, Malaysia, Indonesia & Vietnam when China claims 90% of S. China Sea belong to China. China is too greedy! China DID SIGNED UNCLOS 1982, but China DOES NOT RESPECT what China already signed!

7. missing the point. as i seem to have to keep reminding people, UNCLOS does absolutely NOTHING for the competing countries claims that they already had. read again, very slowly and very carefully what was stated upon ratification. again, NONE of the countries you mentioned accept vietnams claims either. wishful thinking much?

8. The following are evidences that GREEDY CHINA VIOLATED United Nations Convention Laws of the Sea (UNCLOS) SERIOUSLY:

- In 1974, taking advantage while North VN & South VN were busy in civil war, China ILLEGALLY used warships to STEAL Paracel islands from Vietnam. China killed 54 Vietnamese sailors!

- In 1988, China also ILLEGALLY used warships to STEAL Spratly islands from Vietnam. China killed 64 Vietnamese sailors!

- After that, many times GREEDY China KILLED Vietnamese fishermen, BEAT Vietnamese fishermen, STOLE their fishing equipments, DESTROYED their fishing equipments and STOLE all of their fishes on VIETNAM'S SEA TERRITORY, which was RECOGNIZED BY INTERNATIONAL LAWS & by many countries from the world! It is VIETNAM TRADITIONAL SEA, that Vietnamese ancestors of those Vietnamese fishermen sailed over there for fishing from generation to generation for many THOUSAND YEARS!

- Many times CRUEL China ships HIT to SINK Vietnamese fishermen's boats, causing these boats WERE SUNK, many Vietnamese fishermen WERE INJURED & MISSING on the sea!

- CRUEL Chinese Navy used the LAWS of CHINA BANDIT GANG to SHOOT & CHASE AWAY Vietnamese Fishermen when these fishermen came closer to Paracel islands to hide from the big storm coming from Philippine.

According to International Laws, these fishermen HAVE THE RIGHT to escape the dangerous of the storm by coming closer to any island on the sea. Vietnamese Navy & Vietnamese people always help Chinese fishermen to escape the dangerous storms from the sea. Vietnamese Navy also used ships TO RESCUE Chinese fishermen during & after the storms, HOW CAN CRUEL Chinese Navy treated Vietnamese fishermen that way???! They violated the International Laws seriously!

Did China respect International Laws???!

8. do you realize why your earliest incident is 1974? because as i already showed, your own ministry of foreign affairs in 1988 ADMITTED Vietnam recognized China's claims as recent as the 1950s. this is all before UNCLOS. the Soviets did as well as i showed, also by their foreign minister. you are being willfully ignorant of just how strong China's claims actually are.

all you have really shown is not once has China ever given up its claims nor accepted a competitors claim in recent memory. the incidents all support this. something your own Vietnam cannot say.

9. China always use cunning propagandas to CHEAT Chinese people that S. China Sea & its islands belong to China in order to steal Paracel, Spartly islands & S. China Sea, but China is ALWAYS AFRAID to go to International Courts to solve the conflict problems of S. China Sea! WHY??? Because China can use FAKE informations to cheat stupid people, but China can not cheat International courts & lawyers!

Vietnam asked China 2 times & Philippine asked China 2 times to solve the problem in S. China Sea in peaceful way by using International Laws in International Courts, but China always refused!
Instead of solving problems by using International Laws & Courts, China used WEAPONS to solve the problems!

In order to have PEACE & JUSTICE in South China Sea, GREEDY China SHOULD RESPECT International Laws UNCLOS 1982 and Exclusive Economic Zones of Philippine, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia & Indonesia; however, because of GREEDY, China has used THE LAWS OF CHINA BANDIT GANG in S. China Sea!

(Not all Chinese are bad, except Chinese Communists & their followers!)

9. k first, China has ALWAYS said it only supports bilateral discussion. ALWAYS and repeatedly saying this position. then you are like "AHA, China wont go to a third party court system". silly. just silly.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Sep 24 2011, 02:15 PM