South China Sea oil and gas exploration - Vietnam vs. China, S. China Sea Options

[Liang1a]

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90883/7598163.html

India makes waves with South China Sea oil and gas exploration

(Global Times)09:49, September 18, 2011

India's External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna began a 3-day visit to Vietnam on Friday as reports claimed that an Indian state-owned oil producer is set to undertake joint exploration of gas resources in the South China Sea with Vietnam, in spite of protests from Beijing.

The Oil and Natural Gas Corporation (ONGC) was reported on Thursday to have cemented a deal with Vietnamese firms to exploit oil and gas in two offshore South China Sea oil blocks with Krishna expected to discuss the issue in Vietnam.

The Indian External Affairs Ministry also reportedly claimed on Thursday that the project has been approved by Vietnam, which claims sovereignty over the two blocks, according to the 1982 United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.

Responding to a question concerning these plans, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Jiang Yu responded Thursday that the UN Convention did not give any country the right to expand their own exclusive economic zone and continental shelf into other countries' territories. Jiang also warned countries outside the region to support the resolution of this dispute through bilateral channels.

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Liang’s comment:

This is the first time I’ve seen the Chinese government responding with a legal counterpoint based on UNCLOS to refute the baseless claims by other countries that UNCLOS’s provisions gave them the right to invade Chinese sovereign territories. As Jiang Yu rightly pointed out, UNCLOS does not give any country the right to unilaterally extend its EEZ and continental shelf into other countries’ EEZ, continental shelf, territorial seas, internal seas and sovereign territories. Any island that qualifies under UNCLOS’ Article 121 has its own EEZ and continental shelf. This means that every Chinese sovereign island in the S. China Sea has its own 200 nm of EEZ and 350 nm of continental shelf. And where the EEZ of two countries overlap, the right of EEZ of each area belongs to the country that is closest to it. Therefore, it is a misrepresentation for Vietnam and other invading countries to argue that UNCLOS allow them to claim 200 nm of EEZ that includes China’s sovereign islands. Furthermore, China has demarcated its sea boundary by the 9-Dotted Line Map that predates the UNCLOS by many decades and cannot be superseded by any ex post facto laws of UNCLOS. Therefore, Vietnam and other invading countries cannot justify their invasion of Chinese sovereign territories by referring to the UNCLOS. And China has the right to evict any invaders from its sovereign territories with force. Specifically, India’s oil agreement with Vietnam is null and void and subject to seizure by the Chinese government according to China's laws. I'm glad to see the Chinese government responding skillfully with refutations based on international laws. I hope it will follow up with military actions justified by international laws.

It should be quite obvious by now that war in S. China Sea is inevitable. If the Chinese government persists in deluding itself that by presenting an image of benevolence it will ultimately wear down its enemies with loving kindness then it will be taking China down the path of destruction. China's policy has not yielded good results as everyone can see. The reality is China is actually losing long time allies. Even N. Korea is now inching closer to Russia and Russia itself is becoming more inattentive to China's interests. The fact that Russia is increasing its arms sales to India and Vietnam is a slap in China's face that signals the serious failure of China's diplomacy. It is time for the Chinese leaders to stop their self-delusion and show the world that China can and will fight to safeguard its sovereign territories and that the international community has better respect China's sovereignty or face the consequences.

At the same time, the Chinese people should learn a few simple facts such as a war against Vietnam will not collapse China's economy if China confines the fighting to the S. China Sea and not attack Vietnam mainland itself. The Chinese people should also know that combat radius of China's fighters such as J-10 and J-11 can all reach the farthest areas of Nansha A. and therefore China does not need aircraft carriers to begin fighting. The Chinese people should also know that fighting Vietnam and Philippines will not cause world war or turn all the world against China. The world needs China more than China needs the world. At least for now. It has been suggested that EU is facing collapse and only China has the money to bail it out. Specifically, Italy has a debt of some $2 trillion. It is suggested that a consortium be formed to provide $750 billion to the IMF to be distributed to Italy to bail it out. China is expected to contribute half of the money. The importing countries need China's cheap exports while China can expand its economy much more sustainably by phasing out exports. Therefore, China is in a very good position to go to war now to regain its lost sovereign territories while at the same time create a new image of a powerful nation willing to defend itself. Such a powerful image will go a long way toward discouraging further aggressions from puny countries.

The cost of war is minimal and the international community needs China's money and exports. Everything is now favorable to China going to war. Such an opportunity may not come again. China must "take the tide while it serves."

Those who are interested in reading more about China's evidence for claiming sovereignty in S. China Sea can go to the following link:

"S. China Sea - possession is nine-tenth of the law."

http://www.network54.com/Forum/238054/thre...enth+of+the+law.

This post has been edited by Liang1a: Sep 19 2011, 03:44 PM

[Mid-Night_Sun]

@'Mid-Night_Sun'


China & you have used a lot of cheating informations to cheat people!

This is the answer for your post from Vietnam Ministry of National Defense:

http://www.qdnd.vn/qdndsite/en-US/75/72/30...72/Default.aspx

that is so stupid it makes me laugh. the note is IN RESPONSE to the Chinese declaration. the SAME ONE that 12 nautical mile is in. which they agreed to. the mere fact the note doesnt repeat the entire Chinese statement doesnt mean China is distorting anything.



read it again carefully.

Vietnam Note: The Democratic Republic of Vietnam's Government agreed to terms of China's public statment in 9-4-1958 about China's sea territory claim.The Democratic Republic of Vietnam Government respect it, and will direct all Agencies to absolute respect the 12 nautical miles sea territory of China in all matters with the People's Republic of China in the East Sea.

Chinese statement it refers to: Declaration of the Government of the People's Republic of China on China's Territorial Sea （September 4， 1958）

　　The Government of the People's Republic of China declares：

　　1. The breadth of the territorial sea of the People's Republic of China shall be twelve nautical miles. This provision applies to all territories of the People's Republic of China including the Chinese mainland and its coastal islands， as well as Taiwan and its surrounding islands， the Penghu Islands， the Dongsha Islands， the Xisha Islands， the Zhongsha Islands， the Nansha Islands and all other islands belonging to China which are separated from the mainland and its coastal islands by the high seas.


completely obvious, hoping people wont actually read both the note and the Chinese statement is the only way you are going to convince people China distorted something.




no they didnt reject China's anything. China wasnt even at the conference. there was a Chinese civil war going on and that is why the SOVIET UNION brought it up on behalf of the Communists. of course the western world head by america support the Nationalists. THAT is why the movement was rejected. not because anyone on earth think it belongs to vietnam.

"It means that since 1951, the international community recognized Vietnam’s historical and legal sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands."

biiiiig joke. ROC held the biggest island for 6 years by then. but regardless, look at today. lost paracel. lost some spratly. and taiwan STILL hold that same biggest island. doesnt look good.




The Geneva Convention saying DRVN governs the zone north of the 17th parallel, had NOTHING to do with giving vietnam ANYTHING or recognizing the fate of the islands AT ALL. [show me in the document the point that says the islands belongs to vietnam and ill give you the point]

The Seventeenth parallel (Vietnamese: vĩ tuyến 17) was the provisional military demarcation line between North and South Vietnam established by the Geneva Accords of 1954.

now THAT is what i call distortion and lying.

even the quote in your article

"The Accords asked attending countries to respect independence, sovereignty and national unity and territorial integrity of Vietnam. " says absolutely NOTHING about the case, but only assume people accept the islands as part of Vietnam's "integrity". that already should have been a red flag to anyone who wasnt blind.



you are in big trouble if that was the best you got. cant deny reality. fact is japan was last to control and everyone knew it, no argument. your claims can be as fantastic as you want, the fact still remains right after japan surrendered, ROC took the taiping in 1945. just look at reality. even forget what governments say because i had several links besides vietnam agreeing with China's claims. btw, you never showed ONE example of another country stating quite flatly they agree with vietnams claims. i did. direct quotes from ministry of affairs from both Soviets and Burma and Viet letter. you have a distortion of the 17th parallel.


how can you claim sovereignty over a group of islands, when SOMEBODY ELSE had control of the BIGGEST and ONLY fresh water island since 1945?

how can you claim all these international recognition and not have ONE quote from a foreign affairs minister saying so?

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Sep 24 2011, 08:55 PM

[ivy20]

that is so stupid it makes me laugh. the note is IN RESPONSE to the Chinese declaration. the SAME ONE that 12 nautical mile is in. which they agreed to. the mere fact the note doesnt repeat the entire Chinese statement doesnt mean China is distorting anything.


read it again carefully.

Vietnam Note: The Democratic Republic of Vietnam's Government agreed to terms of China's public statment in 9-4-1958 about China's sea territory claim.The Democratic Republic of Vietnam Government respect it, and will direct all Agencies to absolute respect the 12 nautical miles sea territory of China in all matters with the People's Republic of China in the East Sea.
[color="#FF0000"][b]

LOOK AT this letter:



The correct translation of this letter is:

"We would like to inform you that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and support the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China regarding territorial waters of China.

The government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision and will direct the proper government agencies to respect absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China in all dealings with the People’s Republic of China on the sea. We would like to send our sincere regards.”

There are many CHEATING informations in your comment. Now, I will go over step by step.

The above letter states that: "the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China"

Can you TELL ME WHERE is 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China??? WHERE???

While China self claims 90% of S. China Sea belongs to China, DISREGARD International Laws & Sea territory of all countries surrounding S. China Sea, WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

SHOW ME WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

[Mid-Night_Sun]

LOOK AT this letter:
http://www.image-share.com/upload/707/169.jpg


The correct translation of this letter is:


There are many CHEATING informations in your comment. Now, I will go over step by step.

The above letter states that: "the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China"

Can you TELL ME WHERE is 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China??? WHERE???

While China self claims 90% of S. China Sea belongs to China, DISREGARD International Laws & Sea territory of all countries surrounding S. China Sea, WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

SHOW ME WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

translations had next to no difference.




this is ridiculous. how many times do i have to tell you......

k, they didnt send that note for the fun of it. they sent it IN RESPONSE to the CHINESE STATEMENT. the Chinese statement lists EVERYTHING. we are going in circles because you refuse to accept that your case has nothing to stand on. basically, directly saying they are replying to the Chinese statement it means nothing. that note had to repeat word for word the entire Chinese statement before you accept. its a big joke that a government would bother sending a note agreeing to a statement if they found ANY part of it disagreeable. if they really had a problem with the statement, they would have made it MUCH more clear which parts were unacceptable. the simple fact is you are INFERRING they didnt agree to certain parts, even though they never said ANYTHING that indicated they had a problem with the statement. they SPECIFICALLY STATED that they 'agree to the terms' and then reference the statement. but you want people to believe 'well they sort of agreed....i know they said it, but they didnt say which islands.....so this magically means they didnt actually agree to it...and yeah"

now you are even trying to pretend this was our argument that the note accepts China's 9 dotted line. stop making things up. you viet do it wayyyy too much. this note is clear that vietnam acknowledge chinese claim on the islands and at least 12 nautical miles from it in sea. THAT is what the note shows.




also you harping on this letter doesnt magically make it our only point. as for vietnam, there was even in 1956, Ung Van Khiem, the vice-foreign minister of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV or North Vietnam), acknowledged that historically the Nansha Islands were a part of Chinese territory when he met with Li Zhimin, China's charge d'affaires in Vietnam.

[before you start saying more....things. realize in 1988 Vietnam Foreign Affairs address and recognized this as well. they dont pretend it didnt happen. so you would be better off doing the same]

Vietnam: THE HOANG SA (PARACEL) AND TRUONG SA (SPRATLY ARCHIPELAGOES AND INTERNATIONAL LAW MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM HANOI — APRIL 1988

"It cites as evidence a view expressed in 1956 by Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam Ung Van Khiem...It is true that the above-mentioned facts have occurred."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=...5mQ&cad=rja




simply, between your own foreign minister and your own government letter, even people who dont accept Chinese claims are going to see Vietnam brought this on themselves.


and also, point blank, you lost the privilege to keep calling us cheating and other insults many posts ago when your post got demolished the first time. like, have some class and realize when you are not in a position to be throwing insults. no matter how mad you are about getting schooled.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Sep 25 2011, 10:29 AM

[ivy20]

translations had next to no difference.

this is ridiculous. how many times do i have to tell you......

k, they didnt send that note for the fun of it. they sent it IN RESPONSE to the CHINESE STATEMENT. the Chinese statement lists EVERYTHING. .............

@ 'Mid-Night_Sun' ,

You can not answer my question! then you tried to twist around ....twist around the main point of the letter of Pham V. Dong! You brought up this letter, then you should take a look at the content of this letter before you or your greedy China can use it to claim anything!

Why are you avoiding to answer my question about the content of this letter?

Because both of you & China distort the meaning & the legal right of this letter in order to cheat stupid people & to steal the entire S. China Sea!

Here is the translation of this letter:

"We would like to inform you that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and support the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China regarding territorial waters of China.

The government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision and will direct the proper government agencies to respect absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China in all dealings with the People’s Republic of China on the sea. We would like to send our sincere regards.”

There are many CHEATING informations in your comment. Now, I will go over step by step.

The first step to discuss is the content of this letter:

The above letter states that: "the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China"

Can you TELL ME WHERE is 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China??? WHERE???

While China self claims 90% of S. China Sea belongs to China, DISREGARD International Laws & Sea territory of all countries surrounding S. China Sea, WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

SHOW ME WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???