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South China Sea oil and gas exploration - Vietnam vs. China, S. China Sea
Liang1a
post Sep 24 2011, 09:47 PM
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QUOTE
Ivy wrote:
Prime Minister Pham Van Dong’s Diplomatic Note 1958 did not state to give up Vietnam’s sovereignty over the Hoang Sa (Paracel) and Truong Sa (Spratly) Islands.

China has recently slandered the so-called “indisputable sovereignty” over the Paracel and Spratly Islands. China’s interpretation of the Diplomatic Note dated September 14, 1958 by Prime Minister Pham Van Dong as an evidence that Vietnam recognized China’s sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands is completely one-sided, and it is the distortion of the contents and the meaning of that document, is entirely strange to Vietnam’s legal foundation as well as international law and ignores the objective fact of the historical background at that time.

China’s distortion of the Diplomatic Note 1958 is an act in a series of intentional acts to create excuses and gradually regularize China’s groundless claims of sovereignty over Vietnam’s Paracel and Spratly Islands



.....The Diplomatic Note 1958 has two clear contents: The first is the government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam noted China’s 12 nautical mile territorial waters. The second is the government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam instructed its state agencies to respect China’s 12 nautical mile territorial waters.

The Diplomatic Note 1958 did not have a single word about territory and sovereignty or name any island. Therefore, the interpretation that Diplomatic Note 1958 declared Vietnam’s abandonment of its sovereignty over the Paracel and Spratly Islands and considers that diplomatic document as the evidence for Vietnam’s recognition of China’s sovereignty over the two archipelagos, which is the distortion of history and has no legal ground.
==========================================================
QUOTE

Mid Night Sun wrote:
that is so stupid it makes me laugh. the note is IN RESPONSE to the Chinese declaration. the SAME ONE that 12 nautical mile is in. which they agreed to. the mere fact the note doesnt repeat the entire Chinese statement doesnt mean China is distorting anything.

Next, even if i accepted that explanation, it means you only get away with land itself. the fact is Vietnam acknowledge and gave up all the sea (which is what everyone is after in the first place) when they gave AND MENTIONED DIRECTLY China's 12 nautical mile.

read it again carefully.

Vietnam Note: The Democratic Republic of Vietnam's Government agreed to terms of China's public statement in 9-4-1958 about China's sea territory claim.

The Democratic Republic of Vietnam Government respect it, and will direct all Agencies to absolute respect the 12 nautical miles sea territory of China in all matters with the People's Republic of China in the East Sea.

Chinese statement it refers to: Declaration of the Government of the People's Republic of China on China's Territorial Sea (September 4, 1958)

  The Government of the People's Republic of China declares:

  1. The breadth of the territorial sea of the People's Republic of China shall be twelve nautical miles. This provision applies to all territories of the People's Republic of China including the Chinese mainland and its coastal islands, as well as Taiwan and its surrounding islands, the Penghu Islands, the Dongsha Islands, the Xisha Islands, the Zhongsha Islands, the Nansha Islands and all other islands belonging to China which are separated from the mainland and its coastal islands by the high seas.


====================================

It is absolutely obvious what the Pham Van Dong letter intended. Pham intended to respect China’s declaration of its territorial seas in all parts of China. Furthermore, since Vietnam did not specifically enumerate any exceptions it is obvious that it intended to include all parts of China’s territorial seas. And since the Chinese declaration specifically included all islands in the South Sea, it is obvious that Vietnam agreed that they belong to China.

… agreed to terms of China's public statement in 9-4-1958 about China's sea territory claim.

From the above quote from Pham’s letter it is clear that Vietnam not only agreed to the 12 nm territorial water but also to all the “terms of China’s public statement … China’s territorial claim.” That is to say, Vietnam agreed to all of China’s sea territorial claim as specified in that letter. There can be no clearer declaration that Vietnam acknowledged China‘s sovereignty over the South Sea islands.

The Vietnamese obviously want to argue that the Pham letter only acknowledged the 12 nm territorial waters of China without acknowledging China’s claim of the South Sea islands. But this is legally untenable because Vietnam specifically stated that it will respect 12 nm of “China’s sea territories.” So the obvious interpretation is that “China’s sea territories” are as specified in the Sept. 4, 1958 declaration which specifically included all the islands in the South Sea. In other words, Vietnam cannot argue that while it clearly stated that it will respect China’s sea territories as specified in the Sept. 4, 1958 declaration yet it meant to exclude the South Sea islands. Or put it in still another way, what did Pham mean when he talked about “sea territory of China?” Legally speaking, it has to mean all the sea territories of China as specified by the Sept. 4, 1958 declaration since Pham was responding to that declaration. If Pham intended to exclude the South Sea islands from China’s territorial sea, then he should have specifically made that crystal clear. Therefore, when Pham said “sea territory of China” it can only mean all sea territories as specified in the Sept. 4, 1958 declaration. Therefore, it is clear that Pham intended to acknowledge the sovereignty of China in the South Sea.

But China’s sovereignty over the South Sea islands was not based on the agreement of Vietnam. China’s sovereignty over the South Sea islands had been established since the Tang Dynasty in the 10th Century. Nothing Vietnam can say or do can change China’s sovereignty claim one little bit. However, Pham’s letter does establish Vietnam’s agreement of China’s sovereignty over the South Sea islands. Therefore, it is dishonest for Vietnam to argue now that it did not agree to China's sovereignty over the South Sea islands. In the end, China does not need to place any importance on the lies of a desperate country. All China needs to do is to make clear its historical sovereignty and then send in its navy to evict these invaders.
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ivy20
post Sep 25 2011, 01:17 AM
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QUOTE (Mid-Night_Sun @ Sep 24 2011, 08:59 PM) *
that is so stupid it makes me laugh. the note is IN RESPONSE to the Chinese declaration. the SAME ONE that 12 nautical mile is in. which they agreed to. the mere fact the note doesnt repeat the entire Chinese statement doesnt mean China is distorting anything.


read it again carefully.

Vietnam Note:
The Democratic Republic of Vietnam's Government agreed to terms of China's public statment in 9-4-1958 about China's sea territory claim.The Democratic Republic of Vietnam Government respect it, and will direct all Agencies to absolute respect the 12 nautical miles sea territory of China in all matters with the People's Republic of China in the East Sea.
[color="#FF0000"][b]

LOOK AT this letter:



The correct translation of this letter is:
QUOTE
"We would like to inform you that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and support the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China regarding territorial waters of China.

The government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision and will direct the proper government agencies to respect absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China in all dealings with the People’s Republic of China on the sea. We would like to send our sincere regards.”


There are many CHEATING informations in your comment. Now, I will go over step by step.

The above letter states that: "the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China"

Can you TELL ME WHERE is 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China??? WHERE???

While China self claims 90% of S. China Sea belongs to China, DISREGARD International Laws & Sea territory of all countries surrounding S. China Sea, WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

SHOW ME WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???
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ivy20
post Sep 25 2011, 01:25 AM
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QUOTE (Liang1a @ Sep 24 2011, 10:47 PM) *
==========================================================
But this is legally untenable because Vietnam specifically stated that it will respect 12 nm of “China’s sea territories.” So the obvious interpretation is that “China’s sea territories” are as specified in the Sept. 4, 1958 declaration which specifically included all the islands in the South Sea.


Can you SHOW ME WHERE IS 12 nm of “China’s sea territories??? WHERE???
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babalaksa
post Sep 25 2011, 02:02 AM
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The fact is that all the arguments of right and wrong from every claimants are arbitrary.
The fact is that what is at stake here is too high for China to compromise.
The fact is that "might is right" holds, and China have the military power and the political will to enforced it.
The fact is that China may not go to war with the claimant-countries, but it's just a matter of time before she starts blowing away at anything under, on, and above the waters of the disputed space whom she regards as "intruders".
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Mid-Night_Sun
post Sep 25 2011, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE (ivy20 @ Sep 25 2011, 04:17 AM) *
LOOK AT this letter:
http://www.image-share.com/upload/707/169.jpg


The correct translation of this letter is:


There are many CHEATING informations in your comment. Now, I will go over step by step.

The above letter states that: "the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China"

Can you TELL ME WHERE is 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China??? WHERE???

While China self claims 90% of S. China Sea belongs to China, DISREGARD International Laws & Sea territory of all countries surrounding S. China Sea, WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

SHOW ME WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???


translations had next to no difference.




this is ridiculous. how many times do i have to tell you......

k, they didnt send that note for the fun of it. they sent it IN RESPONSE to the CHINESE STATEMENT. the Chinese statement lists EVERYTHING. we are going in circles because you refuse to accept that your case has nothing to stand on. basically, directly saying they are replying to the Chinese statement it means nothing. that note had to repeat word for word the entire Chinese statement before you accept. its a big joke that a government would bother sending a note agreeing to a statement if they found ANY part of it disagreeable. if they really had a problem with the statement, they would have made it MUCH more clear which parts were unacceptable. the simple fact is you are INFERRING they didnt agree to certain parts, even though they never said ANYTHING that indicated they had a problem with the statement. they SPECIFICALLY STATED that they 'agree to the terms' and then reference the statement. but you want people to believe 'well they sort of agreed....i know they said it, but they didnt say which islands.....so this magically means they didnt actually agree to it...and yeah"

now you are even trying to pretend this was our argument that the note accepts China's 9 dotted line. stop making things up. you viet do it wayyyy too much. this note is clear that vietnam acknowledge chinese claim on the islands and at least 12 nautical miles from it in sea. THAT is what the note shows.




also you harping on this letter doesnt magically make it our only point. as for vietnam, there was even in 1956, Ung Van Khiem, the vice-foreign minister of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV or North Vietnam), acknowledged that historically the Nansha Islands were a part of Chinese territory when he met with Li Zhimin, China's charge d'affaires in Vietnam.

[before you start saying more....things. realize in 1988 Vietnam Foreign Affairs address and recognized this as well. they dont pretend it didnt happen. so you would be better off doing the same]

Vietnam: THE HOANG SA (PARACEL) AND TRUONG SA (SPRATLY ARCHIPELAGOES AND INTERNATIONAL LAW MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS SOCIALIST REPUBLIC OF VIETNAM HANOI — APRIL 1988

"It cites as evidence a view expressed in 1956 by Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam Ung Van Khiem...It is true that the above-mentioned facts have occurred."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=...5mQ&cad=rja




simply, between your own foreign minister and your own government letter, even people who dont accept Chinese claims are going to see Vietnam brought this on themselves.


and also, point blank, you lost the privilege to keep calling us cheating and other insults many posts ago when your post got demolished the first time. like, have some class and realize when you are not in a position to be throwing insults. no matter how mad you are about getting schooled.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Sep 25 2011, 10:29 AM
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SengokuJedai
post Sep 25 2011, 11:05 AM
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UNCLOS can't be used or else China would never have signed them because if UNCLOS mandated territorial sovereignty up to EEZ, then the Spratly/Paracel island dispute would never get resolved because it's outside the UN mandate to delegate sovereign territories based on any measure not mutually agreed upon before hand...

Ivy clearly doesn't understand the basic concept of UNCLOS and is just screaming and ranting like a child.

Liang1a and MidNightSun teared Ivy a new butt hole today. GG

QUOTE (Ivy20)
There are many CHEATING informations in your comment


If you would stop screaming and using capital letters and using logic and rational and understand the fundamental concepts, you wouldn't look like a big babbling idiot now would you?

This post has been edited by SengokuJedai: Sep 25 2011, 11:07 AM
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ivy20
post Sep 25 2011, 01:19 PM
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QUOTE (SengokuJedai @ Sep 25 2011, 11:05 AM) *
UNCLOS can't be used or else China would never have signed them because if UNCLOS mandated territorial sovereignty up to EEZ, then the Spratly/Paracel island dispute would never get resolved because it's outside the UN mandate to delegate sovereign territories based on any measure not mutually agreed upon before hand...

Ivy clearly doesn't understand the basic concept of UNCLOS and is just screaming and ranting like a child.

Liang1a and MidNightSun teared Ivy a new butt hole today. GG

If you would stop screaming and using capital letters and using logic and rational and understand the fundamental concepts, you wouldn't look like a big babbling idiot now would you?


You work very well for greedy China cunning propaganda!

To excuse for illegal actions of China in S. China Sea, you declare that "UNCLOS can't be used", but the Law of China Bandit Gang can be used, right???

The following are evidences that both of you & your greedy China "understand the basic concept of UNCLOS " & "use logic and rational and understand the fundamental concepts of UNCLOS" on S. China Sea:

QUOTE
- In 1974, taking advantage while North VN & South VN were busy in civil war, China ILLEGALLY USED WARSHIPS to STEAL Paracel islands from Vietnam. China KILLED 54 Vietnamese sailors!

- In 1988, China also ILLEGALLY USED WARSHIPS to STEAL Spratly islands from Vietnam. China KILLED 64 Vietnamese sailors!

- After that, many times GREEDY China KILLED Vietnamese fishermen, BEAT Vietnamese fishermen, STOLE their fishing equipments, DESTROYED their fishing equipments and STOLE all of their fishes on VIETNAM'S SEA TERRITORY, which was RECOGNIZED BY INTERNATIONAL LAWS & by many countries from the world! It is VIETNAM TRADITIONAL SEA, that Vietnamese ancestors of those Vietnamese fishermen sailed over there for fishing from generation to generation for many THOUSAND YEARS!

- Many times CRUEL China ships HIT to SINK Vietnamese fishermen's boats, causing these boats WERE SUNK, many Vietnamese fishermen WERE INJURED & MISSING on the sea!

- CRUEL Chinese Navy used the LAWS of CHINA BANDIT GANG to SHOOT & CHASE AWAY Vietnamese Fishermen when these fishermen came closer to Paracel islands to hide from the big storm coming from Philippine.

According to International Laws, these fishermen HAVE THE RIGHT to escape the dangerous of the storm by coming closer to any island on the sea. Vietnamese Navy & Vietnamese people always help Chinese fishermen to escape the dangerous storms from the sea. Vietnamese Navy also used ships TO RESCUE Chinese fishermen during & after the storms, HOW CAN CRUEL Chinese Navy treated Vietnamese fishermen that way???! They violated the International Laws seriously!

- GREEDY CHINA used the map that China JUST DREW in 19th century to self claim that 90% of S. China Sea belongs to China, the sea that HAS BELONGED TO other 5 nations, where their people HAVE BEEN FISHING for MANY THOUSAND YEARS. By this GREEDY claim, CRUEL CHINA has killed & attacked many fishermen of other countries on the sea! Greedy China also opposed THE RIGHT TO EXPLORE OIL on THE SEA TERRITORY EEZ of Philippine & Vietnam, which are recognized by International Laws & many countries in the world. China DID SIGN the international laws of the sea UNCLOS, but China does not respect what China already signed!

Philippine & Vietnam have asked China many times to solve the conflict in S. China Sea by INTERNATIONAL LAWS , but China ALWAYS REFUSES!


Is that the way that China use logic and rational and understand the fundamental concepts[/u][/b] of UNCLOS???

You are working very well for China cunning propaganda!

You can cheat stupid people, but you can not cheat all people, because not all people are stupid!


This post has been edited by ivy20: Sep 25 2011, 02:09 PM
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ivy20
post Sep 25 2011, 01:24 PM
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QUOTE (Mid-Night_Sun @ Sep 25 2011, 10:12 AM) *
translations had next to no difference.

this is ridiculous. how many times do i have to tell you......

k, they didnt send that note for the fun of it. they sent it IN RESPONSE to the CHINESE STATEMENT. the Chinese statement lists EVERYTHING. .............


@ 'Mid-Night_Sun' ,

You can not answer my question! then you tried to twist around ....twist around the main point of the letter of Pham V. Dong! You brought up this letter, then you should take a look at the content of this letter before you or your greedy China can use it to claim anything!

Why are you avoiding to answer my question about the content of this letter?

Because both of you & China distort the meaning & the legal right of this letter in order to cheat stupid people & to steal the entire S. China Sea!

Here is the translation of this letter:

QUOTE
"We would like to inform you that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and support the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China regarding territorial waters of China.

The government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision and will direct the proper government agencies to respect absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China in all dealings with the People’s Republic of China on the sea. We would like to send our sincere regards.”


There are many CHEATING informations in your comment. Now, I will go over step by step.

The first step to discuss is the content of this letter:

The above letter states that: "the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China"

Can you TELL ME WHERE is 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China??? WHERE???

While China self claims 90% of S. China Sea belongs to China, DISREGARD International Laws & Sea territory of all countries surrounding S. China Sea, WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

SHOW ME WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???


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Mid-Night_Sun
post Sep 25 2011, 01:31 PM
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are you seriously delusional enough to think that what you keep repeating is actually a point?

this is YOUR translation

"We would like to inform you that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and support the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China regarding territorial waters of China."

the Government NOTES and SUPPORTS the SEPT 4, 1958 DECLARATION by the PRC (that is the point of this letter), regarding (this refers to what the Chinese declaration was about) territorial waters of China. when they said 'regarding territorial waters of China' it is what the CHINESE DECLARATION WAS ABOUT.

seriously how dense are you? what exactly is missing in your brain? is it that the Sept. 4, 1958 Chinese declaration is the SAME ONE where we keep telling you lists the territories that you keep saying "WHERE does this 12 nautical mile limit apply?"

is it the NOTED AND SUPPORT part in RESPONSE to the Chinese Declaration you dont understand?

seriously its like talking to a brick.





use your brain for just 1 second if you can. say you are right. the letter doesnt mention ANY land mass at all. so your point is what? Vietnam tricked China? they agree to a 12 nautical limit but since they didnt say what land mass it doesnt mean anything?

how retarded and snake like do you think viets are exactly? and yet this is what you expect people to believe happen by as high level as Government Interaction. its so simple, if they dont agree with the Chinese declaration, dont send the letter. your view makes no sense.


and you so keenly leave out like 50% of my posts. this letter IS NOT the only instance where viet recognize Chinese claims. you keep repeating the same thing even after i answer it and you leave out the rest of my posts.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Sep 25 2011, 01:38 PM
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ivy20
post Sep 25 2011, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (Mid-Night_Sun @ Sep 25 2011, 01:31 PM) *
are you seriously delusional enough to think that what you keep repeating is actually a point?

this is YOUR translation

"We would like to inform you that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and support the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China regarding territorial waters of China."

the Government NOTES and SUPPORTS the SEPT 4, 1958 DECLARATION by the PRC (that is the point of this letter), regarding (this refers to what the Chinese declaration was about) territorial waters of China. when they said 'regarding territorial waters of China' it is what the CHINESE DECLARATION WAS ABOUT.

seriously how dense are you? what exactly is missing in your brain? is it that the Sept. 4, 1958 Chinese declaration is the SAME ONE where we keep telling you lists the territories that you keep saying "WHERE does this 12 nautical mile limit apply?"

is it the NOTED AND SUPPORT part in RESPONSE to the Chinese Declaration you dont understand?

seriously its like talking to a brick.

use your brain for just 1 second if you can. say you are right. the letter doesnt mention ANY land mass at all. so your point is what? Vietnam tricked China? they agree to a 12 nautical limit but since they didnt say what land mass it doesnt mean anything?

how retarded and snake like do you think viets are exactly? and yet this is what you expect people to believe happen by as high level as Government Interaction. its so simple, if they dont agree with the Chinese declaration, dont send the letter. your view makes no sense.


and you so keenly leave out like 50% of my posts. this letter IS NOT the only instance where viet recognize Chinese claims. you keep repeating the same thing even after i answer it and you leave out the rest of my posts.


The translation of the whole letter:

QUOTE
"We would like to inform you that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and support the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China regarding territorial waters of China.

The government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision and will direct the proper government agencies to respect absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China in all dealings with the People’s Republic of China on the sea. We would like to send our sincere regards.”



Why are you afraid of showing the whole letter??? You just use a sentence of that letter, but hide the whole part of the letter, then you distort the meaning of the whole letter! It is cheating!

"A piece of bread is bread, a piece of a story is not the truth of the whole story!"

Since you have many cheating in your comments, I have to count how many times you cheat.

Mid-Night_Sun's cheating # 1: Hidding the whole letter of Pham V. Dong to distort the meaning of the whole letter.

Be brave to answer my question:

The above letter states that: "the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China"

Can you TELL ME WHERE is 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China??? WHERE???

While China self claims 90% of S. China Sea belongs to China, DISREGARD International Laws & Sea territory of all countries surrounding S. China Sea, WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

SHOW ME WHERE did China Claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China???

In this letter, Mr. Pham V. Dong said very clearly: "the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China"

China uses this letter to excuse for China greedy actions in S. China Sea, but where did China claim 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China in S. China Sea???. Where???

Do you think that all people are stupid to believe in what you are cheating???

You are working very well for China cunning propaganda!





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Mid-Night_Sun
post Sep 25 2011, 02:50 PM
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didnt hide anything. the 12 nautical mile is exactly mentioned in the same chinese declaration that the first part says they agree to.

i cheated many times? you are going to count how many times?

"Mid-Night_Sun's cheating # 1:"

your a joke, seriously.


you keep saying, WHERE, WHERE, WHERE THE 12 NAUTICAL MILE?

and i keep telling you. HERE, HERE, HERE





"Declaration of the Government of the People's Republic of China on China's Territorial Sea (September 4, 1958)" in Chinese.

QUOTE
中华人民共和国政府宣布

  (一)中华人民共和国的领海宽度为12海里。这项规定适用于中华人民共和国的一切领土,包括中国大陆及 其沿海岛屿,和同大陆及其沿海岛屿隔有公海的台湾及其周围各岛、澎湖列岛、东沙群岛、西沙群岛、中沙群岛、 南沙群岛以及其他属于中国的岛屿。

  (二)中国大陆及其沿海岛屿的领海以连接大陆岸上和沿海岸外缘岛屿上各基点之间的各直线为基线,从基线 向外延伸12海里的水域是中国的领海。在基线以内的水域,包括渤海湾、琼州海峡在内、都是中国的内海、在基 线以内的岛屿,包括东引岛、高登岛、马祖列岛、白犬列岛、乌岳岛、大小金门岛、大担岛、二担岛、东碇岛在内 ,都是中国的内海。

  (三)一切外国飞机和军用船舶,未经中华人民共和国政府的许可,不得进入中国的领海和领海 上空。

  任何外国船舶在中国领海航行,必须遵守中华人民共和国政府的有关法令。

  (四)以上(一)(二)两项规定的原则同样适用于台湾及其周围各岛、澎湖列岛、东沙群岛、西沙群岛、南 沙群岛以及其他属于中国的岛屿。

  台湾和澎湖地区现在仍然被美国武力侵占,这是侵犯中华人民共和国领土完整的和主权的非法行为。台湾和澎 湖等地尚待收复,中华人民共和国政府有权采取一切适当的方法在适当的时候,收复这些地区,这是中国的内政, 不容外国干涉。





Translation
Declaration of the Government of the People's Republic of China on China's Territorial Sea (September 4, 1958)

  The Government of the People's Republic of China declares:

  1. The breadth of the territorial sea of the People's Republic of China shall be twelve nautical miles. This provision applies to all territories of the People's Republic of China including the Chinese mainland and its coastal islands, as well as Taiwan and its surrounding islands, the Penghu Islands, the Dongsha Islands, the Xisha Islands, the Zhongsha Islands, the Nansha Islands and all other islands belonging to China which are separated from the mainland and its coastal islands by the high seas.

2. China's territorial sea along the mainland and its coastal islands takes as its baseline the line composed of the straight lines connecting bas-points on the mainland coast and on the outermost coastal islands; the water area extending twelve nautical miles outward from this baseline is China's territorial sea. The water areas inside the baseline, including Bohai Bayand the Chiung chow Straits, are Chinese inland waters. The islands inside the base line, including Tungyin Island, Kaoteng Island, the Matsu Islands, the Paichuan Islands, Wuchiu Island, the Grater And Lesser Quemoy Islands, Tatan Island, Erhtan Island and Tungting Island, are islands of the Chinese inland waters.

  3. No foreign aircraft and no foreign vessels for military use may enter China's territorial sea and the air space above it without the permission of the Government of the People's Republic of China.

  While navigation Chinese territorial sea, every foreign vessel must observe the relevant laws of the People's Republic of China and regulations of its government.

  4. The principles provided in paragraphs (2) and (3) apply also to Taiwan and its surrounding islands, the Penghu Islands, the Dongsha Islands, the Xisha Islands, the Zhongsha Islands, the Nansha islands, and all other islands belonging to China.

  The Taiwan and Penghu areas are still occupied by the United States armed force. This is anunlawful encroachment on the territorial integrity and sovereignty of the People's Republic of China. Taiwan, Penghu and such other areas are yet to be recovered, and the Government of the People's Republic of china has the right to recover these area by all suitable means at a suitable time. This is China's internal affair, in which no foreign interference is tolerated.




in the same Chinese statement the letter is responding to. i really dont know whats wrong with you. you are only making the viet position look retarded.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Sep 25 2011, 02:52 PM
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ivy20
post Sep 25 2011, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (Mid-Night_Sun @ Sep 25 2011, 01:31 PM) *
and you so keenly leave out like 50% of my posts. this letter IS NOT the only instance where viet recognize Chinese claims. you keep repeating the same thing even after i answer it and you leave out the rest of my posts.


Read again my comment above, as I said, there are many cheating in your comments, that's the reason why I said "I will go over step by step"

Do you have problem for understanding English???

The first step I pointed out to discuss is the content of Pham V. Dong letter, but you can not answer my question "where did China claim 12 nautical miles" on the sea as Pham V. Dong said in his letter. Instead of discuss directly the content of that letter, you twist around....twist around...to other informations!

Answer my question about ""where did China claim 12 nautical miles", then I will discuss the 2nd step further.
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Mid-Night_Sun
post Sep 25 2011, 03:00 PM
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you might as well just accept your finished. you even claim, i used the first part of the letter instead of the latter.


uhhh ok? lets use the latter part. the part you UNDERLINED.

"respect absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China "

this makes it 100% clear it is referring to the Chinese declaration because the 12 nautical mile was something specific to that declaration. you thought i left it out because this was a weakness when in fact is the strongest evidence that this letter is in fact a response to the declaration. ok 2nd strongest. the strongest was when they flat out said it was about the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China.



1st part of the letter mentions the declaration by name. the second part mentions a point that is unique to that declaration. either way.



the only actual difference so far, is Chinese declaration title is Declaration of the Government of the People's Republic of China on China's Territorial Sea. and viet government said "regarding territorial waters"

but i have no doubt sooner or later that is going to mean all sorts of wonderful magical things for viet as well.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Sep 25 2011, 03:06 PM
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ivy20
post Sep 25 2011, 03:18 PM
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QUOTE (Mid-Night_Sun @ Sep 25 2011, 02:50 PM) *
didnt hide anything. the 12 nautical mile is exactly mentioned in the same chinese declaration that the first part says they agree to.


My question was: "Where did China claim 12 nautical miles on the sea?"

Mid-Night_Sun's cheating #2 : Another cheating: In reality, China claims 90% of S. China Sea belong to China, not 12 nautical mile as Pham V. Dong said in his letter!


"the 12 nautical mile is exactly mentioned in the same chinese declaration " is not the same "Where did China claim 12 nautical miles?"

You twist around...twist around to hide the illegal actions of your greedy China!

It is very clear that both you & China just distort the letter of P. V. Dong to cheat stupid people & to steal the whole S. China Sea!

If you disagree with me that you & China don't distort the letter of P. V. Dong, then you should show me "Where did China claim 12 nautical miles on the sea??"

I repeat again: "on the sea", not on the paper! Because what China saying is not the same as what China doing!

"Action speak louder than word!"
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Mid-Night_Sun
post Sep 25 2011, 03:27 PM
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LOL how big of a font do i have to make it before you see it. jesus.

i never said this letter is vietnam accepting the 9 dotted line. i said the letter, which says it accepts Chinese territory of 12 nautical miles, was in RESPONSE to the Chinese declaration that lists every disputed island.


yes, action does speak louder than words. here are the actions of China and then Viet.


this is Chinese declaration:

Declaration of the Government of the People's Republic of China on China's Territorial Sea (September 4, 1958)

  The Government of the People's Republic of China declares:

The breadth of the territorial sea of the People's Republic of China shall be twelve nautical miles. This provision applies to all territories of the People's Republic of China including the Chinese mainland and its coastal islands, as well as Taiwan and its surrounding islands, the Penghu Islands, the Dongsha Islands, the Xisha Islands, the Zhongsha Islands, the Nansha Islands and all other islands belonging to China which are separated from the mainland and its coastal islands by the high seas.












this is the response, your translation btw


"We would like to inform you that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and support the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China regarding territorial waters of China.

The government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision and will direct the proper government agencies to respect absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China in all dealings with the People’s Republic of China on the sea. We would like to send our sincere regards.”






go ahead and try and convince people what it means. i think its clear as day. but you have to convince people that a letter, that is in RESPONSE to a declaration that lists every island, didnt actually mean to include those islands when they acknowledge the 12 mile limit. that it agrees with the 12 mile limit from the declaration, but not for the territories named right after in the same declaration. and not mentioned a single WORD of these disagreements in the letter. gl with that.

This post has been edited by Mid-Night_Sun: Sep 25 2011, 04:23 PM
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ivy20
post Sep 25 2011, 11:03 PM
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QUOTE (Mid-Night_Sun @ Sep 25 2011, 03:27 PM) *
LOL how big of a font do i have to make it before you see it. jesus.

i never said this letter is vietnam accepting the 9 dotted line. i said the letter, which says it accepts Chinese territory of 12 nautical miles, was in RESPONSE to the Chinese declaration that lists every disputed island.


yes, action does speak louder than words. here are the actions of China and then Viet.


this is Chinese declaration:

Declaration of the Government of the People's Republic of China on [size=5]China's Territorial Sea (September 4, 1958)

  The Government of the People's Republic of China declares:

The breadth of the territorial sea of the People's Republic of China shall be twelve nautical miles. This provision applies to all territories of the People's Republic of China including the Chinese mainland and its coastal islands, as well as Taiwan and its surrounding islands, the Penghu Islands, the Dongsha Islands, the Xisha Islands, the Zhongsha Islands, the Nansha Islands and all other islands belonging to China which are separated from the mainland and its coastal islands by the high seas.



this is the response, your translation btw


"We would like to inform you that the Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and support the September 4, 1958 declaration by the People’s Republic of China regarding territorial waters of China.

The government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision and will direct the proper government agencies to respect absolutely the 12 nautical mile territorial waters of China in all dealings with the People’s Republic of China on the sea. We would like to send our sincere regards.”



go ahead and try and convince people what it means. i think its clear as day. but you have to convince people that a letter, that is in RESPONSE to a declaration that lists every island, didnt actually mean to include those islands when they acknowledge the 12 mile limit. that it agrees with the 12 mile limit from the declaration, but not for the territories named right after in the same declaration. and not mentioned a single WORD of these disagreements in the letter. gl with that.


You can not show where did China claim 12 nautical miles on the sea! Of course you can not show it because in the reality, China claims 90% of South China Sea, not 12 nautical miles!

It is so ridiculous when China always uses the letter of Pham V. Dong to excuse for China illegal actions in S. China Sea, but at the same time, China violates what Pham V. Dong said he respects in his letter! It is China's cheating #1
(This is one of reasons that China is always afraid to go to International Court for the conflict in S. China Sea)

China's cheating # 2: According to Geneva Accords 1954, French had to withdraw troops from Vietnam & returned back Vietnam's territory to
Vietnam. Vietnam was divided to 2 countries, North Vietnam & South Vietnam, from the 17th parallel to the south, belongs to South Vietnam. All countries sign the Accords 1954 should respect the territory of other country, can not use war to attack or violate the sovereignty and territory of other country.


Zhou Enlai, China Prime Minister attended Geneva Conference 1954, he DID SIGN the Geneva Accords 1954, but China seriously violated the sovereignty of South Vietnam on Paracel & Spratly islands when China declared that Paracel & Spratly islands belong to China in 1958! This is an illegal action, which violates what China already signed!
(This is another reason why China is always afraid to go to International Court for the conflict in S. China Sea)

China cheats people by saying that Paracel & Spratly islands don't belong to Vietnam because the name of these islands were not mentioned in Geneva Accords; however, China can cheat stupid people but China can not cheat International Courts & Lawyers!

Vietnam has more than 3,000 thousand islands, of course the names of Vietnam's 3,000 thousand islands don't appear in Geneva Accords, but Vietnam does have Legal Rights of sovereignty over these islands. Why?
Because the main purpose of Geneva Accords is French colonize denounced all rights in Vietnam & returned back Vietnam territory to previous owner is Vietnam. Vietnam has well documents of Vietnam's sovereignty of over 3,000 islands including Paracel & Spratly islands before French colonized & French also has documents of these islands when French received them from Vietnam 2 centuries ago. Documents of Paracel & Spratly islands from Vietnam & French are evidences to prove that Vietnam was the previous owner of Paracel & Spratly islands before French colonized. Of course, French should return these islands to the previous owner is Vietnam, according to Geneva Accords 1954.

This post has been edited by ivy20: Sep 26 2011, 11:01 AM
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chutzpah
post Sep 26 2011, 02:31 AM
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QUOTE (ivy20 @ Sep 25 2011, 03:56 PM) *
Do you have problem for understanding English???
It is obvious you are the one that have poor comprehension, just read your terrible English. There is nothing worst than a screaming aggressive illogical and stupid Viet b!tch, your behavior puts all Asian girls in a bad light. One hopes the average Viet females have better breeding than you.

QUOTE (ivy20 @ Sep 25 2011, 02:25 AM) *
Can you SHOW ME WHERE IS 12 nm of “China’s sea territories??? WHERE??
The 12 nautical miles used to be between your ears but now it is just a huge empty space, between your ears I mean.. embarassedlaugh.gif
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ivy20
post Sep 26 2011, 07:12 AM
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QUOTE (chutzpah @ Sep 26 2011, 02:31 AM) *
It is obvious you are the one that have poor comprehension, just read your terrible English. There is nothing worst than a screaming aggressive illogical and stupid Viet b!tch, your behavior puts all Asian girls in a bad light. One hopes the average Viet females have better breeding than you.

The 12 nautical miles used to be between your ears but now it is just a huge empty space, between your ears I mean.. embarassedlaugh.gif



You have "good comprehension" and "logical" because your main purpose to have comment here is using terrible words to insult people, while the main purpose for this thread is discussing about "South China Sea oil and gas exploration - Vietnam vs. China"!

You are "super" person who has very...very "good comprehension" and "logical"!


QUOTE (chutzpah @ Sep 26 2011, 02:31 AM) *
There is nothing worst than a screaming aggressive illogical and stupid Viet b!tch, your behavior puts all Asian girls in a bad light. One hopes the average Viet females have better breeding than you.

The 12 nautical miles used to be between your ears but now it is just a huge empty space, between your ears I mean.. embarassedlaugh.gif


Search on Google: "Chinese prostitutes" to see the truth!

That's the aswer for the question who puts all Asian girls in a bad light!

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fireplant
post Sep 26 2011, 07:39 AM
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Nice effort MNS. At least you got them to do the snake dance in front of everybody.
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chutzpah
post Sep 26 2011, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE (ivy20 @ Sep 26 2011, 08:12 AM) *
You have "good comprehension" and "logical" because your main purpose to have comment here is using terrible words to insult people, while the main purpose for this thread is discussing about "South China Sea oil and gas exploration - Vietnam vs. China"!

You are "super" person who has very...very "good comprehension" and "logical"!




Search on Google: "Chinese prostitutes" to see the truth!

That's the aswer for the question who puts all Asian girls in a bad light!

Gee Ivy2 bits, can you at least go back to school and learn to write proper English or is that Viet English you are writing? embarassedlaugh.gif

Can you show me where are the terrible words I used? I suppose you don't insult people right? As you love to call everyone a cheat and a liar how about if I call you the same. ivy2 bits, you are a cheat and a liar because I know I have not used any terrible words in my reply. But you have been calling everyone a cheat and a liar, isn't that so ivy2 bits?

What truth dear? Shall I google Viet prostitutes too? What about Viet whores? Are you implying there are no whores in Vietnam? BTW why are you obsessed with Chinese prostitutes? Did your father left your mother for one or did your husband or boy friend love visiting them and left you all alone, you can tell us instead of discussing China's nautical miles and those Chinese islands which are really beyond your very basic comprehension.

QUOTE
b!tch:
-noun
1
a female dog.

2
a female of canines generally.

3
Slang.

1. a malicious, unpleasant, selfish person, especially a woman.
2. a lewd woman.
4
Slang.

1. a complaint.
2. anything difficult or unpleasant: The test was a b!tch.
3. anything memorable, especially something exceptionally good: That last big party he threw was a real b!tch.
-verb (used without object)
5
Slang. to complain; gripe: They b!tched about the service, then about the bill.

-verb (used with object)
6
Slang. to spoil; bungle (sometimes fol. by up): He b!tched the job completely. You really b!tched up this math problem.

ivy2 bits, referring to your behavior as a b!tch is actually a compliment, because you are so good at yapping away just like a female dog, being unpleasant and difficult. It is not terrible because it is the truth about you. embarassedlaugh.gif

This post has been edited by chutzpah: Sep 26 2011, 09:22 AM
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