New Theory on Angkor, Who were the last Varman kings? Options

[SabaiSabai]

Chams are Chams and Mon are Mon. We don't brand them anything else as you claim we do. It is my Khmer people that dominated the entire southeast Asia. That is why everywhere you go in SEA you'll see that Khmer were once present and left behind influences in the area. Siem did not make it all the way past the southern region of Kampuchea. That is why you don't see any of their presence or much of an influence at all. This is why you are so bitter.

Errrr you obviously miss the part in Khmer text books where you name them "Khmer Mon" and "Khmer Islam" oh wait... your not actually living in Cambodia or even grew up there.

Silly me

But anyway, here we go again!

"Mon-Khmer speaking peoples are believed to have migrated into mainland South East Asia from either south west China or north east India as early as 2000 BCE. At the start of the first millennium CE, both India and China began to establish trading contacts throughout the wider region; Indian influence was particularly strong in the Mekong basin area, and over successive centuries, as the Mon-Khmer peoples began to develop their own political institutions, Indian ideas and practices regarding kingship, law, religion, art, architecture, literature, language and writing were progressively assimilated.

The political entities which emerged during this period are generally referred to as kingdoms, but it would be more accurate to describe them as mandalas, constantly expanding and contracting spheres of influence based not on territorial boundaries but rather on the personal networks built up around the presumed sacred powers of each king.

By the 3rd century CE the Mon had established a major city-state at Nakhon Pathom, west of Bangkok, from which they gradually built up a large mandala known as Dvaravati (6th-11th centuries), which stretched from southern Burma across what is now central Thailand. In 769 Dvaravati extended its power northwards to the present-day northern Thai city of Lamphun near Chiang Mai, where it founded the kingdom of Haripunjaya. The proliferation of ancient Buddhist sites marked by Dvaravati-style bai sema (temple boundary stones) found along the middle reaches of the Mekong River in what is now central Laos suggests that during this very same period the Mon also extended their sphere of influence eastwards from Haripunjaya through the modern Lao provinces of Bokeo, Sayaburi, Vientiane, Saysomboun, Borikhamxai and Khammouane. Ancient urban centres in that region which are believed to have been established by the Mon include Souvannakhomkham in modern Bokeo Province, Candapuri (Chanthaburi, later the capital city of Vientiane) and Sayfong in present-day Vientiane Prefecture, Phainam (later Viengkham) in modern Vientiane Province and Sri Gotapura (later Sikhottabong) in present-day Khammouane Province. The Mon played a crucial role in the propagation of Therevada Buddhism throughout the wider region, laying the groundwork for its subsequent consolidation as the state religion under the Fa Ngum dynasty of Lane Xang.

Located on the banks of the Mekong River in what is now westernmost Bokeo Province, the ancient city of Souvannakhomkham is thought to have been one of the earliest Mon mandalas in what is now Laos, although much of the present remains are vestiges of a 16th century city established on the foundations of the earlier site by King Sai Setthathirat I (1550-1571) of Lane Xang.

Sri Gotapura (8th-11th centuries) is believed by Lao historians to be one and the same with the kingdom of Wen Dan which, according to Chinese annals, made four successive tribute missions to the Tang dynasty court during the 8th century. Sri Gotapura was based initially on the west bank of the Mekong in modern Thailand at the mouth of the Xebangfai River, but subsequently relocated eastward to the area six kilometres south of modern Thakhek, capital of Khammouane Province, where That Sikhottabong now stands. The mysterious Great Wall, which stretches 15 kilometres from northern Thakhek to rhe Xebangfai River, may well have been part of this city's fortifications.

Some scholars believe that Candapuri (Chanthaburi), the earliest incarnation of the capital city of Vientiane, originated in the 8th century as a satellite kingdom of Sri Gotapura. The site on which Phra That Luang was later built may have been the spiritual centre of this Mon kingdom, the capital of which was probably situated in the area immediately to the west of the present-day monument where the earliest earthen city wall has been found (see Vientiane City Walls). Cultural links between Candapuri and its close neighbours Sayfong (present-day Hadsayfong District of Vientiane Prefecture) to the south and Phainam (present-day Viengkham District of Vientiane Province) to the north were to endure well into the Lane Xang era.

It has also been conjectured that Muang Sua (the earliest name of Luang Prabang) was originally established by the Mon, although as yet no firm evidence exists to support this theory."

Actually there is evidence

Anyway, as for the branding. Just ask Khmerboi. He will tell you what they are known as in Cambodia lol

[Kdaw_Tmaw]

We do not refer to Cham as Khmer-Islam. I and many other Khmer people that I know just call them Cham. However, there are also Khmer ethnic who are Islam and that is perhaps why you will hear the word Khmer-Islam being used. Mon-Khmer always mean 2 different ethnics. If not, then we will just call them Khmer. Also, I am Khmer and I travel abroad my country very often so don't say I don't know anything about my own people and country.

[SabaiSabai]

We do not refer to Cham as Khmer-Islam. I and many other Khmer people that I know just call them Cham. However, there are also Khmer ethnic who are Islam and that is perhaps why you will hear the word Khmer-Islam being used. Mon-Khmer always mean 2 different ethnics. If not, then we will just call them Khmer. Also, I am Khmer and I travel abroad my country very often so don't say I don't know anything about my own people and country.

http://www.tckip.org/aboutus.html

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Publication.asp?pid=191

Publications
The 'Khmer Islam' community in Cambodia and its foreign patrons
Dr Milton Osborne

Summary
Dr Milton Osborne, Australia's pre-eminent Cambodia expert, in a new Lowy Institute Issues Brief, looks at the revival of Cambodia's Islamic minority in the post-Pol Pot period. After providing a detailed historical background of Khmer Islam and its social marginalisation, the report analyses the largely unreported role regional and Middle Eastern groups and Islamist doctrines are playing in this proposal. Cambodia's revival, as with the rest of Southeast Asia, is a complex mix of entrenched local factors and new regional and Middle Eastern influences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Cambodia

Islam is the religion of a majority of the Cham (also called Khmer Islam) and Malay minorities in Cambodia. According to Po Dharma, there were 150,000 to 200,000 Muslims in Cambodia as late as 1975. Persecution under the Khmer Rouge eroded their numbers, however, and by the late 1980s they probably had not regained their former strength. In 2009, the Pew Research Center estimated that 1.6% of the population, or 236,000 people were Muslims.[1] All of the Cham Muslims are Sunnis[citation needed] of the Shafi'i school.[citation needed] There is also a growing Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Cambodia.[2] Po Dharma divides the Muslim Cham in Cambodia into a traditionalist branch and an orthodox branch.

Seems you don't know as much about your country as you think lol

[Kdaw_Tmaw]

http://www.tckip.org/aboutus.html

http://www.lowyinstitute.org/Publication.asp?pid=191

Publications
The 'Khmer Islam' community in Cambodia and its foreign patrons
Dr Milton Osborne

Summary
Dr Milton Osborne, Australia's pre-eminent Cambodia expert, in a new Lowy Institute Issues Brief, looks at the revival of Cambodia's Islamic minority in the post-Pol Pot period. After providing a detailed historical background of Khmer Islam and its social marginalisation, the report analyses the largely unreported role regional and Middle Eastern groups and Islamist doctrines are playing in this proposal. Cambodia's revival, as with the rest of Southeast Asia, is a complex mix of entrenched local factors and new regional and Middle Eastern influences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Cambodia

Islam is the religion of a majority of the Cham (also called Khmer Islam) and Malay minorities in Cambodia. According to Po Dharma, there were 150,000 to 200,000 Muslims in Cambodia as late as 1975. Persecution under the Khmer Rouge eroded their numbers, however, and by the late 1980s they probably had not regained their former strength. In 2009, the Pew Research Center estimated that 1.6% of the population, or 236,000 people were Muslims.[1] All of the Cham Muslims are Sunnis[citation needed] of the Shafi'i school.[citation needed] There is also a growing Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Cambodia.[2] Po Dharma divides the Muslim Cham in Cambodia into a traditionalist branch and an orthodox branch.

Seems you don't know as much about your country as you think lol

I have heard about Chams in Cambodia being called as Khmer-Islam, and I do agree it is very misleading and most likely have a lot to do with politics. But again, I and many Khmer people that I know just call them Cham. Anyways, you are a bitter person and I find it sad for you to vent your hatred towards us Khmer people, which you do not know much about us at all.

[Suriin1234]

well actually we do just call them cham..thats about it just cham nek cham. like vietnamese we don't call them khmer youn, but just youn or vietnam

[KhmerBoi]

I have heard about Chams in Cambodia being called as Khmer-Islam, and I do agree it is very misleading and most likely have a lot to do with politics. But again, I and many Khmer people that I know just call them Cham. Anyways, you are a bitter person and I find it sad for you to vent your hatred towards us Khmer people, which you do not know much about us at all.

You are Right!!! These Guys have never been in our Country but he pretend to know everything even better then us. taht how their mentality work nothing more then that. I live in Cambodia.. and I know alot of Cham people even they also working in my TV station.... There are many kinds of Cham and Khmer who is mixing Cham-Khmer from the intermarriage of Buddhist and Islam.. For Political view Cham being call Khmer Islam because they included all the intermarrige of Khmer in to Islam even in Khmer call Choul Sash (convert to other ethnic) it mean that interm of religion they use the ethnic. It mean most Khmer who marriage to Islam being call Cham (they even change their name to Cham name)for the population but for political view they call Khmer Islam.. Maybe King Seyhanuk want Khmer ethnic becoming the National identity... (Note: Siem fail to do so noone (not included Siem self) like to call them self Siam but Thai instead) For Cham Khmer always Buddhist and most of Cham have no idea about Buddhism (According to the research in Cambodia- Intermarrage of Buddhism and Islam).

The Cham people refer Khmer to call them Bong Paoun Cham (Cham Brothers) or Islam.

This post has been edited by KhmerBoi: Jan 3 2012, 01:03 AM

[KhmerBoi]

Errrr you obviously miss the part in Khmer text books where you name them "Khmer Mon" and "Khmer Islam" oh wait... your not actually living in Cambodia or even grew up there.

Silly me

But anyway, here we go again!

"Mon-Khmer speaking peoples are believed to have migrated into mainland South East Asia from either south west China or north east India as early as 2000 BCE. At the start of the first millennium CE, both India and China began to establish trading contacts throughout the wider region; Indian influence was particularly strong in the Mekong basin area, and over successive centuries, as the Mon-Khmer peoples began to develop their own political institutions, Indian ideas and practices regarding kingship, law, religion, art, architecture, literature, language and writing were progressively assimilated.

The political entities which emerged during this period are generally referred to as kingdoms, but it would be more accurate to describe them as mandalas, constantly expanding and contracting spheres of influence based not on territorial boundaries but rather on the personal networks built up around the presumed sacred powers of each king.

By the 3rd century CE the Mon had established a major city-state at Nakhon Pathom, west of Bangkok, from which they gradually built up a large mandala known as Dvaravati (6th-11th centuries), which stretched from southern Burma across what is now central Thailand. In 769 Dvaravati extended its power northwards to the present-day northern Thai city of Lamphun near Chiang Mai, where it founded the kingdom of Haripunjaya. The proliferation of ancient Buddhist sites marked by Dvaravati-style bai sema (temple boundary stones) found along the middle reaches of the Mekong River in what is now central Laos suggests that during this very same period the Mon also extended their sphere of influence eastwards from Haripunjaya through the modern Lao provinces of Bokeo, Sayaburi, Vientiane, Saysomboun, Borikhamxai and Khammouane. Ancient urban centres in that region which are believed to have been established by the Mon include Souvannakhomkham in modern Bokeo Province, Candapuri (Chanthaburi, later the capital city of Vientiane) and Sayfong in present-day Vientiane Prefecture, Phainam (later Viengkham) in modern Vientiane Province and Sri Gotapura (later Sikhottabong) in present-day Khammouane Province. The Mon played a crucial role in the propagation of Therevada Buddhism throughout the wider region, laying the groundwork for its subsequent consolidation as the state religion under the Fa Ngum dynasty of Lane Xang.

Located on the banks of the Mekong River in what is now westernmost Bokeo Province, the ancient city of Souvannakhomkham is thought to have been one of the earliest Mon mandalas in what is now Laos, although much of the present remains are vestiges of a 16th century city established on the foundations of the earlier site by King Sai Setthathirat I (1550-1571) of Lane Xang.

Sri Gotapura (8th-11th centuries) is believed by Lao historians to be one and the same with the kingdom of Wen Dan which, according to Chinese annals, made four successive tribute missions to the Tang dynasty court during the 8th century. Sri Gotapura was based initially on the west bank of the Mekong in modern Thailand at the mouth of the Xebangfai River, but subsequently relocated eastward to the area six kilometres south of modern Thakhek, capital of Khammouane Province, where That Sikhottabong now stands. The mysterious Great Wall, which stretches 15 kilometres from northern Thakhek to rhe Xebangfai River, may well have been part of this city's fortifications.

Some scholars believe that Candapuri (Chanthaburi), the earliest incarnation of the capital city of Vientiane, originated in the 8th century as a satellite kingdom of Sri Gotapura. The site on which Phra That Luang was later built may have been the spiritual centre of this Mon kingdom, the capital of which was probably situated in the area immediately to the west of the present-day monument where the earliest earthen city wall has been found (see Vientiane City Walls). Cultural links between Candapuri and its close neighbours Sayfong (present-day Hadsayfong District of Vientiane Prefecture) to the south and Phainam (present-day Viengkham District of Vientiane Province) to the north were to endure well into the Lane Xang era.

It has also been conjectured that Muang Sua (the earliest name of Luang Prabang) was originally established by the Mon, although as yet no firm evidence exists to support this theory."

Actually there is evidence

Anyway, as for the branding. Just ask Khmerboi. He will tell you what they are known as in Cambodia lol

Emmm.. what?? Cham in Cambodia are proud of their heritage and they live peacefully in Cambodia.. They also learn in the state school and we still see nothing that Khmer Textbook have down their ethnic as low class or what ever.. they still being call Cham people in modern day... See no war between Cham and Khmer but Cham help Khmer to develop and protect our country.. but Cham and other Malay are fighting for their right in Thailand what is that??

Again, Khmer and Cham always known as difference group of people who live in Cambodia known for both local and international we never consider Cham as Khmer but Khmer who marriage to Cham becoming Cham because of the religion (even though it doesn't mean so but both Cham and Khmer have no problem with that) Doi you Thai have problem with that?? ^^

[SabaiSabai]

Emmm.. what?? Cham in Cambodia are proud of their heritage and they live peacefully in Cambodia.. They also learn in the state school and we still see nothing that Khmer Textbook have down their ethnic as low class or what ever.. they still being call Cham people in modern day... See no war between Cham and Khmer but Cham help Khmer to develop and protect our country.. but Cham and other Malay are fighting for their right in Thailand what is that??

Again, Khmer and Cham always known as difference group of people who live in Cambodia known for both local and international we never consider Cham as Khmer but Khmer who marriage to Cham becoming Cham because of the religion (even though it doesn't mean so but both Cham and Khmer have no problem with that) Doi you Thai have problem with that?? ^^

You've obviously missed the documentary about them fighting to maintain their identity lol oh and your government has branded them Khmer islam. Doesn't matter what you say, it's already happened.

As for the extremists in southern Thailand. $hit we got them in the uk too. What's your point? There are millions of malayu people in south Thailand who are perfectly content. You can't please everybody. There were bound to be some that get upset and violent

[Kdaw_Tmaw]

You've obviously missed the documentary about them fighting to maintain their identity lol oh and your government has branded them Khmer islam. Doesn't matter what you say, it's already happened.

As for the extremists in southern Thailand. $hit we got them in the uk too. What's your point? There are millions of malayu people in south Thailand who are perfectly content. You can't please everybody. There were bound to be some that get upset and violent

Yes, it is the government's fault, but most Khmer and Cham know better. I believe this could be addressed in the certain future ahead. Out of curiosity, why are so many southern Thai Islam so content?

[KhmerBoi]

You've obviously missed the documentary about them fighting to maintain their identity lol oh and your government has branded them Khmer islam. Doesn't matter what you say, it's already happened.

As for the extremists in southern Thailand. $hit we got them in the uk too. What's your point? There are millions of malayu people in south Thailand who are perfectly content. You can't please everybody. There were bound to be some that get upset and violent

You mean in Khmer Rough? ^^ Well Man... everyone one face the same thing in Cambodia..

Yeah that the only thing you can say, U can't please everyone!! ^^

[Bounthy]

A theory about how Angkor was demised: drought
http://news.yahoo.com/drought-led-demise-a...-142407479.html

This post has been edited by Bounthy: Jan 3 2012, 02:33 PM

[SabaiSabai]

You mean in Khmer Rough? ^^ Well Man... everyone one face the same thing in Cambodia..

Yeah that the only thing you can say, U can't please everyone!! ^^

Do you even know about the situation in south Thailand? do you know that the area is Nakhon sri Dhammaraja? Did you know that Nakhon Sri Dhammaraja was a separate kingdom to those of Malaysia?

Those people are Islamic militants that want to join the territory with other Muslim territory. If they had their way it would be like the Taliban in Afghanistan. But then you wouldn't know anything like this because all you can do is stare up into the sky from your well.

How can someone who works on media know so little about the world? lol

[SabaiSabai]

A theory about how Angkor was demised: drought
http://news.yahoo.com/drought-led-demise-a...-142407479.html

This is completely opposite of the other theory where they thought the water system silted up. Now it leads me to think, if the Khmers knew how the water system worked. They would have been able to make adjustments to the system to make it work even in drought.

With the amount of man power available to Angkor at the time, they could have dug a canal from the Tonle sap!

I don't buy it

[KhmerBoi]

Do you even know about the situation in south Thailand? do you know that the area is Nakhon sri Dhammaraja? Did you know that Nakhon Sri Dhammaraja was a separate kingdom to those of Malaysia?

Those people are Islamic militants that want to join the territory with other Muslim territory. If they had their way it would be like the Taliban in Afghanistan. But then you wouldn't know anything like this because all you can do is stare up into the sky from your well.

How can someone who works on media know so little about the world? lol

Because what you had said it were not the root of the problem!!! Just make your self look good.., it is not help u, and ur country to solve that complicated problems. I am not go to far to Taliban... because of cause the root of problems are difference and people, polical.. are difference as well!!! Yes!! of cause you see me know nothing and you know better then other that why u trying burning the smoke among your neibour take a look at your Airport who wanna flight to Thailand, their destination are changing to Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Cambodia.... We know we are not the Best but we know way to reach there in the future!!! ^^

[SabaiSabai]

Because what you had said it were not the root of the problem!!! Just make your self look good.., it is not help u, and ur country to solve that complicated problems. I am not go to far to Taliban... because of cause the root of problems are difference and people, polical.. are difference as well!!! Yes!! of cause you see me know nothing and you know better then other that why u trying burning the smoke among your neibour take a look at your Airport who wanna flight to Thailand, their destination are changing to Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Cambodia.... We know we are not the Best but we know way to reach there in the future!!! ^^

Errrr.....


http://www.thaiwebsites.com/images/Tourism...rismEnd2010.gif

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/tourism.asp

It would help to know what you are actually talking about personal opinion and REALITY don't go hand in hand lol reminds me about Khmer history.

This post has been edited by SabaiSabai: Jan 3 2012, 07:55 PM

[KhmerBoi]

Errrr.....


http://www.thaiwebsites.com/images/Tourism...rismEnd2010.gif

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/tourism.asp

It would help to know what you are actually talking about personal opinion and REALITY don't go hand in hand lol reminds me about Khmer history.

Lolzzz yeah that can make you satisfy enough right? Lolzzz I know that how you response to me!!! of cause you are smart man!! ^^ Thailand Tourist Statistic.. lol Everything base on internet!! And pretended that you are there! ^^

[SabaiSabai]

Lolzzz yeah that can make you satisfy enough right? Lolzzz I know that how you response to me!!! of cause you are smart man!! ^^ Thailand Tourist Statistic.. lol Everything base on internet!! And pretended that you are there! ^^

http://www.euromonitor.com/thailand/country-factfile

Enjoy

The internet is the hub of the accumulated knowledge of mankind. I don't need to "Be there" as me being there will get exactly the same information as someone who was "there" and put it on the internet.

Learn to use the internet properly, perhaps you will learn something about your fake history lol

And for the record. How would me being in Thailand tell me anything about the statistics of the tourism? was I supposed to sit at the airport and count the people going in and out? lol your just being silly now.

This post has been edited by SabaiSabai: Jan 3 2012, 08:45 PM

[KhmerBoi]

http://www.euromonitor.com/thailand/country-factfile

Enjoy

The internet is the hub of the accumulated knowledge of mankind. I don't need to "Be there" as me being there will get exactly the same information as someone who was "there" and put it on the internet.

Learn to use the internet properly, perhaps you will learn something about your fake history lol

And for the record. How would me being in Thailand tell me anything about the statistics of the tourism? was I supposed to sit at the airport and count the people going in and out? lol your just being silly now.

Fake history? That I can only feel with Thailand history...emmmm Khmer empire is so real how can I deny it dear?? ^^ if thre is next life I wish I was born in Cambodia again! ^^

[SabaiSabai]

Fake history? That I can only feel with Thailand history...emmmm Khmer empire is so real how can I deny it dear?? ^^ if thre is next life I wish I was born in Cambodia again! ^^

Ok, so what is your evidence to say it was Khmers who ruled a vast empire in SEA? lol

The only thing that Scholars have been going on for years is that the area is inhabited IN PRESENT DAY by the Khmer people who MUST BE the descendants of the people that built Angkor.

It is a history based on assumption. This is a fake history. I have already provided proof that the regions that the rulers of Chenla and Angkor were from are not the same group as the people Khmers that inhabit the area today.

I also agree with you in that Thai history is also fake. It tries to combine 2 histories into 1. Siamese and Tai are not the same people. This is why the history seems so far fetched and has no proper connection. Because they try to link 2 peoples from completely different culture and history into one. You can't link Siamese history to Tai people and vice versa.

Clear evidence to prove this? Syam identity already existed in the 11th century (Po Nagar inscription) 200 years before the mass migration of the Tai into SEA. According to the mass migration theory that you all so blindly believe. The people that you associate with the word Siem are Tai. How can these people already rule a kingdom between Bagan and Lava in 1050AD??????? like I said, you people are just blind to the truth.

The three main Austroasiatic groups in SEA at that time were Lawa, Syam, Khmer. Mon as an identity did not yet exist! Syam were ancient Mon people that inhabited Dvaravati territory....and they still do! Western Mon were known as Ramans as they were from Ramanadesa. Eastern Mon were Syam.

Now a very funny thing occured when I was researching the Mon descendants. The Nyah Kur people who are direct descendants of Dvaravati are classified by anthropologists as Lawa people.

Syam = Thailand. Lava = Lao. Khmer = Cambodia. All are austroasiatic people that were at one point united into one kingdom. There was no empire, there was no conquest of other peoples lands... it was just principalities taking over each other.

Definition of Empire:

An empire is a state with politico-military dominion of populations who are culturally and ethnically distinct from the imperial (ruling) ethnic group and its culture[3] — unlike a federation, an extensive state voluntarily composed of autonomous states and peoples.
What physically and politically constitutes an empire is variously defined. It might be a state effecting imperial policies, or a particular political structure.

Your Khmer Empire was just a fantasy created by the French. You have all been brainwashed for 200 years thinking such a thing existed.

Dvaravati spoke austroasiatic language, practiced Buddhism and Hinduism
Kambujadesa spoke austroasiatic language, practiced Buddhism and Hinduism
Lava spoke austroasiatic language, practiced Buddhism and Hinduism

People believed that got these elements from the main ruler. In fact, they were already speaking and practicing these things before the "Khmer Empire" was said to have begun.

Chenla the region in which Bhavavarman and Isanavarman and Citrasena were from is in Syam/Lawa territory. Khmer Territory was in the lower mekong delta valley.

Khmers have more claim to being Funanese than Angkorian. Khmer Empire? it's all a joke.

[SEAhistory]

Ok, so what is your evidence to say it was Khmers who ruled a vast empire in SEA? lol

The only thing that Scholars have been going on for years is that the area is inhabited IN PRESENT DAY by the Khmer people who MUST BE the descendants of the people that built Angkor.

It is a history based on assumption. This is a fake history. I have already provided proof that the regions that the rulers of Chenla and Angkor were from are not the same group as the people Khmers that inhabit the area today.

Youve already proven that Khmer people inhabited the land of the rulers of Angkor.

I also agree with you in that Thai history is also fake. It tries to combine 2 histories into 1. Siamese and Tai are not the same people. This is why the history seems so far fetched and has no proper connection. Because they try to link 2 peoples from completely different culture and history into one. You can't link Siamese history to Tai people and vice versa.


Noone does that. Everyone lies on the information yet available from intensive studies.

Clear evidence to prove this? Syam identity already existed in the 11th century (Po Nagar inscription) 200 years before the mass migration of the Tai into SEA. According to the mass migration theory that you all so blindly believe. The people that you associate with the word Siem are Tai. How can these people already rule a kingdom between Bagan and Lava in 1050AD??????? like I said, you people are just blind to the truth.


Yes their indentity existed already.. They were known as the weaved long haired jungle people.

The three main Austroasiatic groups in SEA at that time were Lawa, Syam, Khmer. Mon as an identity did not yet exist! Syam were ancient Mon people that inhabited Dvaravati territory....and they still do! Western Mon were known as Ramans as they were from Ramanadesa. Eastern Mon were Syam.


Yes youre right. Mon established territory in Burma and Central Thailand and Sukhotai, Lao people established Lava, Syam established Ayyuthya and Khmer created Kampuchea.

[b]Now a very funny thing occured when I was researching the Mon descendants. The Nyah Kur people who are direct descendants of Dvaravati are classified by anthropologists as Lawa people.

Syam = Thailand. Lava = Lao. Khmer = Cambodia. All are austroasiatic people that were at one point united into one kingdom. There was no empire, there was no conquest of other peoples lands... it was just principalities taking over each other.

Definition of Empire:

An empire is a state with politico-military dominion of populations who are culturally and ethnically distinct from the imperial (ruling) ethnic group and its culture[3] — unlike a federation, an extensive state voluntarily composed of autonomous states and peoples.
What physically and politically constitutes an empire is variously defined. It might be a state effecting imperial policies, or a particular political structure.

Your Khmer Empire was just a fantasy created by the French. You have all been brainwashed for 200 years thinking such a thing existed.

Dvaravati spoke austroasiatic language, practiced Buddhism and Hinduism
Kambujadesa spoke austroasiatic language, practiced Buddhism and Hinduism

[b]

Lava spoke austroasiatic language, practiced Buddhism and Hinduism

People believed that got these elements from the main ruler. In fact, they were already speaking and practicing these things before the "Khmer Empire" was said to have begun.

Chenla the region in which Bhavavarman and Isanavarman and Citrasena were from is in Syam/Lawa territory. Khmer Territory was in the lower mekong delta valley.

Khmers have more claim to being Funanese than Angkorian. Khmer Empire? it's all a joke.

[/b]


A joke to you because you don't know better. There is only one country to contradict the information available, and thats Thailand. You think all the historians/investigators don't have the information you have? You think they would lie about the truth? Ill doers are ill deemers..