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New Theory on Angkor, Who were the last Varman kings?
LoveIsAllAround
post Feb 19 2012, 09:20 PM
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My new theory....

Siem = one of Funanese or Funan
Chenlan = a Funan vassal (Khmers claim to be Chenlan)

Chenlan defeated Siem, and then named the country 'Siem Reap -- Destruction of Siem' which Chinese recorded it as 'Chenla'

Siem might be those Syam and Kuk; Syam might be from Sambhupura; and Kuk from Sambor Prei Kuk

Those defeated Siem fled to Chaiya and formed Sri Bodhi (Early Srivijaya), or Sam/Syam Bodhi (San Fo Si)

Sam=Syam; Sam/Sama=pali, Syam=Sanskrit mean golden;

Siam located in Suvarnbhumi/Laem Thong -- the golden land; Samdesa = Pali name of Siam

what do you think?




Kratie region in the time of ancient Khmer empires Funan and Chenla. The kingdom of Sambhupura.
(Sources: "The Ancient Khmer Empire", Lawrence Palmer Briggs, published in 1951)

Of the many Indianized kingdoms of Indo-China, Funan (first century to ca. 550) is probably the most ancient. Funan seems to have occupied the Mekong delta, the lower Mekong and the Tonle Sap. The today region of Kratie province was a part of Funan. The Funanese seem to have spoken a pre-Khmer Austro-Asiatic language.
The name Chenla first appeared in history when Chenla sent an embassy to China in 616 or 617. "It was originally a vassal of Funan … attacked Funan and subdued it" (Chinese writer Sui-shu 589-618 A.D.). The original site of Chenla seems to have been in southeastern Laos and early kings increased the territory towards the south (including the today Kratie region). At the beginning of the eighth century Chenla bordered Annam (Northern Vietnam) in the Northeast and the Tai Kingdom of Nan Chao (Yunan). Jayavarman I of Chenla (ca. 640/657 to ca. 681) seems to have reigned in the Banteay Prei Nokor-Ba (Vyadhapura) region. His death was followed by a period of internal strife.
Two new dynasties arose and disputed the supremacy with that of Vyadhapura. Nripatindravarman apparently revived the earlier kingdom of Aninditapura and controlled a western strip of the delta to the sea of Oc Eo (southern Vietnam), probably establishing his capital at Angkor Borei (Takeo), while the new dynasty of Sambhupura was building up a kingdom on the eastern bank of the Mekong river. This dynasty, with its early centers in the vicinity of the present Sambor and Kratie, seems to have broken off from Chenla during the reign of Jayavarman I. The name Sambhupura, which has been preserved in that of Sambor, seems to presume a founder named Sambhuvarmann - but there is no record of such a person. At any rate, this region assumed great prominence during two decades of the seventh and the beginning of the eighth centuries. Many inscriptions and monuments of this period are found there (as the Koh Kuk Krieng temple near present Sambor). The first ruler of Sambhupura mentioned in Chinese inscriptions is a female - presumed to have been the daughter of the supposititious Sambhuvarman. This daughter married Pushkaraksha, son of Nripatindravarman of Aninditapura, and he thus became king of Sambhupura.
After the middle of the eighth century Rajendravarman II, in whom was united the blood of the three great rival dynasties of Lower Chenla, reunited all Lower Chenla. He was generally accepted as King of Chenla. The capital was now probably Angkor Borei (Takeo) and inscriptions say that Rajendravarman II was also king of Sambhupura, seeming to indicate that it was not the principal capital. Jayavarman II (7??-850), reunited Upper and Lower Chenla at the beginning of the eighth century. Some scientists identify Jayavarman II with the dynasty of Sambhupura. At the end of 8 century Jayavarman II moved the capital to Hariharalaya (Roluos, Siem Reap) and then to Phnom Kulen mountain area (Siem Reap). The Khmer capital remained in this region until the beginning of Angkor (900) and the capture by Siamese in 1431.

This post has been edited by LoveIsAllAround: Feb 19 2012, 09:39 PM
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LoveIsAllAround
post Feb 19 2012, 09:37 PM
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QUOTE (KhmerBoi @ Feb 19 2012, 07:42 PM) *
PeaceMan, Don't make a joke here!!!! Siem Reap this name was change since King AngChan in 16 century A.D...


and you keep ignore this fact???

"Sui Shu -- Chinese book 589-618 A.D." first called Chenla from Siem Reap of Siem Reap sound.
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KhmerBoi
post Feb 19 2012, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (SabaiSabai @ Feb 19 2012, 11:26 AM) *
Yeah I have, it was a turd movie to stir up patriotism in the people. complete fabrication though lol girls were cute icon_smile.gif

Right! is that not about one community again the ruler? one person can change the world do you believe it?
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Leeporter
post Feb 19 2012, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (LoveIsAllAround @ Feb 20 2012, 09:20 AM) *
My new theory....

Siem = one of Funanese
Chenlan = one of Funanese (Khmers claim to be Chenlan)

The name Chenla first appeared in history when Chenla sent an embassy to China in 616 or 617. "It was originally a vassal of Funan … attacked Funan and subdued it"


Funan had its origin in Chaiya (150 A.D), it expanded during Kun Pan Man (Kun Pan Wang's son) to Cambodia and S.VN. moving its center of power to somewhere south of Cambodia.

Later there was a brokeup between brothers (of diffretnt mothers) and the trone was taken and it's known to Chinese as "Chenla". The losing rulers of Funan fled to Chaiya to establish Sri Bodhi (G. Coedes called Srivijaya) and they came back to take Chenla as their vassal again.

Srivijaya was known later by the chinese as "Siam-Lavo" (961 A.D)

During 1030, Srivijaya was attacked by Chola dynasty form India and it disappeared from the Chinese record, probably it moved the center of power up north.
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LoveIsAllAround
post Feb 19 2012, 09:43 PM
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QUOTE (Leeporter @ Feb 19 2012, 08:16 PM) *
No, not Manchai, it's U-Thong Mee Chai อู่ทองมีชัย or the victory of King U-Thong named after King U-Thong after he took Yasodhrarapura back and drove the Khmer to move down south to Phnom Pehn. icon_smile.gif


Yes, Udoung Meanchey = U-Tong Mee Chai biggthumpup.gif

It's very weird that Khmer used Siamese King name to name their capital.
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Leeporter
post Feb 19 2012, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (LoveIsAllAround @ Feb 20 2012, 09:43 AM) *
Yes, Udoung Meanchey = U-Tong Mee Chai biggthumpup.gif

It's very weird that Khmer used Siamese King name to name their capital.


Maybe they thought it's a Korean name.



embarassedlaugh.gif


This post has been edited by Leeporter: Feb 19 2012, 09:46 PM
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Leeporter
post Feb 19 2012, 09:56 PM
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QUOTE (LoveIsAllAround @ Feb 20 2012, 09:20 AM) *
The name Chenla first appeared in history when Chenla sent an embassy to China in 616 or 617. "It was originally a vassal of Funan … attacked Funan and subdued it" (Chinese writer Sui-shu 589-618 A.D.).


Yes, that was during Isaanvarman. The brothers was brokeup and the name Chenla was firstly heard during his period (actually the fighting between brothers started earlier during Prince Chittasen/Mahendravarman)

The losing prince fled to Pan Pan in Surathani to establish Srivijaya and came back to claim their throne later. icon_smile.gif


QUOTE (LoveIsAllAround @ Feb 20 2012, 09:20 AM) *
The original site of Chenla seems to have been in southeastern Laos and early kings increased the territory towards the south.


Not quite correct, there were more than one lineage, the Mon on the Isaan/Lao expanding downward and the tamil lineage from south Cambodia expanding northward.

This post has been edited by Leeporter: Feb 19 2012, 09:57 PM
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KhmerBoi
post Feb 19 2012, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (SabaiSabai @ Feb 19 2012, 10:58 AM) *
Meanchey means what?

I see other towns named Bantey Meanchey and this translates as fortress of victory... how the hell is Udong Meanchey translates as succession of kings and Banteay Meanchey meaning fortress of victory.

Both containing the word Meanchey o.O

Chey = Chai = Victory?

Mean replace "ea" with "a" Man

Meanchey in Thai would be Manchai? to mean constant victory? lol

Go back to primary school and learn what is Khmer word and what is Tai word!!
មាន /MAN/ read as Mean is Khmer word meaning Have, Got, Rich...
ជ៍យ​(/ //Jaya read as Chey is Sanskrit word meaning Victory

ឧត្ដុង उत्तुङ्ग "uttuṅga"​read as Udong is sanskit word meaning supreme

ឧត្ដុងមានជ័យ Udong MeanChey meaning "home to a succession of kings".

What wrong waht you guys playing with this word around?

Siem Reap was baptized by King Ang Chan (1516-1566) as “Siem Reap”, meaning “the flat defeat of Siam” (Cambodians call Siam or Thailand “Siem”). It was because of the victory over the Thais which King Ang Chan counter-attacked, and shot Prince Ong dead on an elephant’s back, and routed the Thais and captured no less than 10,000 Thai troops.
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LoveIsAllAround
post Feb 19 2012, 09:58 PM
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QUOTE (KhmerBoi @ Feb 19 2012, 07:46 PM) *
So why there is some Mon-Khmer living Malay Peninsular in present day? and why Thai dialect in Southern Thailand (Malay Peninsular) have some Khmer words which central Thai don't have..????? see? you jsut ignore everything which is prove that Khmer!!! you can try more harder if you want!! convert those Thai to stop using Khmer word like you already done to Isan (Lao)!!!!


They are Mon-Khmer speakers, it doesn't mean they are Khmer. DIdn't you read Sonofgunongjarai's comment? He said, they are related to Mon, Not Khmer. KHmer homeland always the Khmer Krom in Vietnam, not any part of Thailand. Mon related people populated in the whole Thailand, North Malaysia, and south Burma.
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LoveIsAllAround
post Feb 19 2012, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (KhmerBoi @ Feb 19 2012, 07:40 PM) *
Only if you believe France!!! ^^

No France, No Cambodia, No Khmer Empire. embarassedlaugh.gif
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post Feb 19 2012, 10:01 PM
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QUOTE (KhmerBoi @ Feb 20 2012, 09:57 AM) *
Go back to primary school and learn what is Khmer word and what is Tai word!!
មាន /MAN/ read as Mean is Khmer word meaning Have, Got, Rich...
ជ៍យ​(/ //Jaya read as Chey is Sanskrit word meaning Victory

ឧត្ដុង उत्तुङ्ग "uttuṅga"​read as Udong is sanskit word meaning supreme

ឧត្ដុងមានជ័យ Udong MeanChey meaning "home to a succession of kings".


ha ha ha ..... how could "got" + "Victory" + "Supreme" = "home to a succession of kings"?????

Idiot, the name wsa "U-Thong Mee Chai", simple and straighforward.

And for the reason why it has the name of Thai king?

Because it belonged to Siam before the French took it.

Look at the map in 1886 again, just in case you forgot already. icon_smile.gif


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KhmerBoi
post Feb 19 2012, 10:05 PM
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QUOTE (Leeporter @ Feb 20 2012, 10:01 AM) *
ha ha ha ..... how could "got" + "Victory" + "Supreme" = "home to a succession of kings"?????

Idiot, the name wsa "U-Thong Mee Chai", simple and straighforward.

And for the reason why it has the name of Thai king?

Because it belonged to Siam before the French took it.

Look at the map in 1886 again, just in case you forgot already. icon_smile.gif




that why you can't understand our Khmer! a language of an Empire.. it not simply for you to understand it you need to go deeper!!! even you give me this map it still not included Udong!!! you idiot claiming with no ashamed!!! that why there is no peace among the two country because there is such many idiot like you living in Thailand!!!
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LoveIsAllAround
post Feb 19 2012, 10:09 PM
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QUOTE (SabaiSabai @ Feb 19 2012, 05:20 AM) *
After reading it through it seems it's taking Khmer scholars idea of k+me as the source for the connection. But wait... Isn't Khmer supposed to be from kambu+mera???? Lol

I would love to find out the origin of the word khmer. There is so much bull$hit floating about regarding it lol but what we do know is it didn't appear before the 11th century.


The name 'Khmer' was created to give those Austroasiatic tribals whom were captured and indianized for at least 250 years in Kambujadesa.
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chadwarden
post Feb 19 2012, 10:14 PM
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lol the chinese fail to notice this guy



and this guy




as leading the "dark skin" "wavy hair" funanese right? and speaks a completely different language.





i mean do you guys actually think at all? the chinese know tai peoples already from southern china this is a known fact. that is the tai peoples home. they have written about the tai people many times but they fail to notice that man leads the funnanese?

why would it be recorded that angkor was sacked by ayuthaya? why would the so called siam sack their own kingdom? does that make any sense to you either? to me it doesnt

but its fun to see more off the wall theories it makes you guys look so special at least your thinking unlike your stupid lazy pathetic thai scholars and populace that to this day just accept the name khmer and khmer empire and angkor to be true right?



rofl copter

Prominent Thai historian Dr Charnvit Kasetsiri (PS another moron according to you guys ) began with a question asking who the Thai people are, and where they came from.

"Students would answer that the Thai people are those who speak Thai, believe in Buddhism, love the Nation, Religion and Monarchy, and probably they would also add that Thai people are good and moral, and willing to sacrifice for the country. And they came down from the Altai Mountains, and formed the kingdoms of Nan Chao, Sukhothai, Ayutthaya, and then Rattanakosin," he said.


here gentlemen explain me this. Chinese mainland knew the Dai/Tai people since 100s BC.Yet they fail to note that there are Dai/Tai people in Funnan or Angkor? How can u twist chinese knowledge one way but dont see the real Chinese knowledge.

The history of contact between the Dai and Han peoples dates back to 109 B.C., when Emperor Wu Di of the Han Dynasty set up Yizhou Prefecture in southwestern Yi (the name used to signify the minority areas of what are now Sichuan, Yunnan and Guizhou provinces). The Dais in subsequent years sent tribute to the Han court in Luoyang, and among the emissaries were musicians and acrobats. The Han court gave gold seals to the Dai ambassadors and their chieftain was given the title "Great Captain."

According to Chinese documents of the ninth century, the Dais had a fairly well developed agriculture. They used oxen and elephants to till the land, grew large quantities of rice and had built an extensive irrigation system. They used kapok for weaving, panned salt and made weapons of metal. They plated their teeth with gold and silver.

In the 12th century, a Dai chieftain named Bazhen unified all the tribes and established the Mengle local regime with Jinghong as the capital, and called it the "Jinglong Golden Hall Kingdom." According to local records, the kingdom had a population of more than one million, and was famous for white elephants and fine-breed horses. It recognized the Chinese imperial court as its sovereign. When Bazhen ascended the throne, he was given a "tiger-head gold seal" by the Emperor, and the title "Lord of the Region." Previously, the Dais in the Dehong region had established the Mengmao Kingdom, with Ruilijiang as the capital.

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Leeporter
post Feb 19 2012, 10:18 PM
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I will show you what the chinese saw in southern Thaialnd.



Dark and curly hair.

They were the local people before any other race.
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chadwarden
post Feb 19 2012, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (Leeporter @ Feb 20 2012, 11:18 AM) *
I will show you what the chinese saw in southern Thaialnd.



Dark and curly hair.

They were the local people before any other race.


right.....

which makes it even more stupid that this



leads those black people and nobody records it or mentions it anywhere.

keep on failing lee porter its fun to watch.
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KhmerBoi
post Feb 19 2012, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (Leeporter @ Feb 20 2012, 10:18 AM) *
I will show you what the chinese saw in southern Thaialnd.



Dark and curly hair.

They were the local people before any other race.


Are they call Ngoh? tell me where do they live, my Thai Southerner!!!
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LoveIsAllAround
post Feb 19 2012, 10:25 PM
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QUOTE (chadwarden @ Feb 19 2012, 10:14 PM) *
lol the chinese fail to notice this guy



and this guy




as leading the "dark skin" "wavy hair" funanese right? and speaks a completely different language.





i mean do you guys actually think at all? the chinese know tai peoples already from southern china this is a known fact. that is the tai peoples home. they have written about the tai people many times but they fail to notice that man leads the funnanese?

why would it be recorded that angkor was sacked by ayuthaya? why would the so called siam sack their own kingdom? does that make any sense to you either? to me it doesnt

but its fun to see more off the wall theories it makes you guys look so special at least your thinking unlike your stupid lazy pathetic thai scholars and populace that to this day just accept the name khmer and khmer empire and angkor to be true right?



rofl copter

Prominent Thai historian Dr Charnvit Kasetsiri (PS another moron according to you guys ) began with a question asking who the Thai people are, and where they came from.

"Students would answer that the Thai people are those who speak Thai, believe in Buddhism, love the Nation, Religion and Monarchy, and probably they would also add that Thai people are good and moral, and willing to sacrifice for the country. And they came down from the Altai Mountains, and formed the kingdoms of Nan Chao, Sukhothai, Ayutthaya, and then Rattanakosin," he said.


here gentlemen explain me this. Chinese mainland knew the Dai/Tai people since 100s BC.Yet they fail to note that there are Dai/Tai people in Funnan or Angkor? How can u twist chinese knowledge one way but dont see the real Chinese knowledge.

The history of contact between the Dai and Han peoples dates back to 109 B.C., when Emperor Wu Di of the Han Dynasty set up Yizhou Prefecture in southwestern Yi (the name used to signify the minority areas of what are now Sichuan, Yunnan and Guizhou provinces). The Dais in subsequent years sent tribute to the Han court in Luoyang, and among the emissaries were musicians and acrobats. The Han court gave gold seals to the Dai ambassadors and their chieftain was given the title "Great Captain."

According to Chinese documents of the ninth century, the Dais had a fairly well developed agriculture. They used oxen and elephants to till the land, grew large quantities of rice and had built an extensive irrigation system. They used kapok for weaving, panned salt and made weapons of metal. They plated their teeth with gold and silver.

In the 12th century, a Dai chieftain named Bazhen unified all the tribes and established the Mengle local regime with Jinghong as the capital, and called it the "Jinglong Golden Hall Kingdom." According to local records, the kingdom had a population of more than one million, and was famous for white elephants and fine-breed horses. It recognized the Chinese imperial court as its sovereign. When Bazhen ascended the throne, he was given a "tiger-head gold seal" by the Emperor, and the title "Lord of the Region." Previously, the Dais in the Dehong region had established the Mengmao Kingdom, with Ruilijiang as the capital.


dude, Chinese men in Thailand are not light as this guy, Only those gayish men will be still light skin.

You can't put skin color to debate. Except you mean your 'dark' is as black as African, then there will be you Khmer. LMAO!!!
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LoveIsAllAround
post Feb 19 2012, 10:28 PM
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QUOTE (chadwarden @ Feb 19 2012, 10:21 PM) *
right.....

which makes it even more stupid that this



leads those black people and nobody records it or mentions it anywhere.

keep on failing lee porter its fun to watch.


They spotted dark and naked inhabitant, walking with bare feet. Maybe those Tai rulers ruled the negrito? embarassedlaugh.gif
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chadwarden
post Feb 19 2012, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE (LoveIsAllAround @ Feb 20 2012, 11:25 AM) *
dude, Chinese men in Thailand are not light as this guy, Only those gayish men will be still light skin.

You can't put skin color to debate. Except you mean your 'dark' is as black as African, then there will be you Khmer. LMAO!!!


thats not even the point man the point is that chinese knew the Dai/Tai peoples since 100 bc's. Im pretty sure they arent gonna mistake a Tai person as a native funnanese. I dont get how you guys are failing to notice this.

Abhisit who is said to be of chinese descent and is called thai. does he look like he can lead our people yet alone those black people lee porter put here and not be questioned? hey chinese welcome to funan these are my people lols i dont speak their language but i can perfectly control them confused.gif







its just simple anthropological evidence to look at. it doesnt take switching peoples transliteration of names or reaching to make this name that name.

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