New Theory on Angkor, Who were the last Varman kings? Options

[Leeporter]

SEAhistory, if you still insist that Varman kings in Funan and Chenla period were Khmer, answer us a simple question why the old Chronicle of Cambodia put Nippean Bat (1340-1346) as the first king of Cambodia and never mentioned Jayavarman IX (1327-1336) his predecessor?

Jayavarman IX died around 1336 and Nippean Bat became king a few years later and still lived in the same city

How could your people know only Nippean Bat and didn't know about the "last Varman" king????

If Angkor was so great and built by Khmers, your Khmer people should have put those Varman kings in their chronicles in the first place.

They don't have to wait until the French came in 18th century and rewrote their history to fit the French's hidden purpose.

If not because they were ashamed of being slave under Khom Varman, answer us, why?

^^ SEAhistory, don't waste your time finding the answer. You won't find it, believe me.

Those Varman kings and the first Khmer King Nippeant Bat were not related, even G. Cedes confirmed it.

It was the French who tried to link Khmer with the Angkor.

They started by this ridiculous attempt to match Rattanokin style dance Khmers learned from Bangkok with the dance on the wall of Angkor.





See how ridiculous their attempt was?

Tell us honestly whether you think that such dance really match the Apsara dance?

Later they knew that they could fool some stupid people but they couldn't fool everybody so Princess Buppha Devi, using her genious, created the whole Khmer Angkorean dance out of her imagination, using the picture she saw on the wall of Angkor.

And it came out something like this.



She was real genious, wasn't she?

There was no evidece whatsoever that those dance on the wall are real dance perform by human.

Apsara are angles that serve gods, and those picture carved on the wal were not dancers of Angkor.

It's all her imagination!


Spritual dance for Hindu god has nothing to do with the dance she designed.

It was almost 1,000 years so I can't find the example of spiritual dance they did but if you want to see some sample of spiritual dance in the old days, this is more like it (skip to 8:00 if you don't want to see "Wai Kru")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsFxnX8QflM...feature=related

I am not saying it's 100% match the spiritual ceremony they did in Angor, but it was closer than those Apsara dance designed by Princess Buppha Devi.

You have to understand that the fancy things in your head and the real thing are not the same.

What in your head is something the French (and Princess Buppha Devi) created and made you (and people around the world) to believe for more than 100 years, so it's hard for you to belive something that is totally different from the picture of ancient spiritual dance in your head.

For example, when you talk about Christianity, in your head will see luxury roman catholic churches and all the spiritual things they did nicely inside such churches, right?

But in the real world, that kind of thing they did was a relatively new and so much different from spiritual way they did in the ancient time.

The original Christian way of spiritual performance should look similar to this one in Ethiopia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJfbtupcGbs

It's not what is in your head, right?

It's totally different from fancy things created in western countries.

They distorted the image of Christianity the same way they distorted the spiritual ceremony in the Angkor period.

Hope you understand it and open to accept the new theory.

Accept that Varman kings and Khmer kings were not related.

And accept that Princess Buppha Devi stole the dance from Bangkok.

PS> KhmerBoi already accepted that Khmer stole counting system from Thai, good for him.

[SEAhistory]

^^ SEAhistory, don't waste your time finding the answer. You won't find it, believe me.

Those Varman kings and the first Khmer King Nippeant Bat were not related, even G. Cedes confirmed it.

It was the French who tried to link Khmer with the Angkor.

They started by this ridiculous attempt to match Rattanokin style dance Khmers learned from Bangkok with the dance on the wall of Angkor.





See how ridiculous their attempt was?

Tell us honestly whether you think that such dance really match the Apsara dance?

Later they knew that they could fool some stupid people but they couldn't fool everybody so Princess Buppha Devi, using her genious, created the whole Khmer Angkorean dance out of her imagination, using the picture she saw on the wall of Angkor.

And it came out something like this.



She was real genious, wasn't she?

There was no evidece whatsoever that those dance on the wall are real dance perform by human.

Apsara are angles that serve gods, and those picture carved on the wal were not dancers of Angkor.

It's all her imagination!


Spritual dance for Hindu god has nothing to do with the dance she designed.

It was almost 1,000 years so I can't find the example of spiritual dance they did but if you want to see some sample of spiritual dance in the old days, this is more like it (skip to 8:00 if you don't want to see "Wai Kru")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsFxnX8QflM...feature=related

I am not saying it's 100% match the spiritual ceremony they did in Angor, but it was closer than those Apsara dance designed by Princess Buppha Devi.

You have to understand that the fancy things in your head and the real thing are not the same.

What in your head is something the French (and Princess Buppha Devi) created and made you (and people around the world) to believe for more than 100 years, so it's hard for you to belive something that is totally different from the picture of ancient spiritual dance in your head.

For example, when you talk about Christianity, in your head will see luxury roman catholic churches and all the spiritual things they did nicely inside such churches, right?

But in the real world, that kind of thing they did was a relatively new and so much different from spiritual way they did in the ancient time.

The original Christian way of spiritual performance should look similar to this one in Ethiopia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJfbtupcGbs

It's not what is in your head, right?

It's totally different from fancy things created in western countries.

They distorted the image of Christianity the same way they distorted the spiritual ceremony in the Angkor period.

Hope you understand it and open to accept the new theory.

Accept that Varman kings and Khmer kings were not related.

And accept that Princess Buppha Devi stole the dance from Bangkok.

PS> KhmerBoi already accepted that Khmer stole counting system from Thai, good for him.

That the first Khmer king is not related I can believe. That Khmer people used Siamese dance at one point I can belive as well. At some point the Khmers had to turn to Siamese for reviving their culture. Siamese took dance from Srivijaya as well in South Thailand. I don't know what you want to prove by this. But linguistic studies, cultural studies all see how Siamese took everything from foreign rulers. And a lot came from Khmer.

The question is, what happened to the royal court? And the only evidence you can provide is a mythical story that was used before and probably was used to fill the gaps in what was a mystery because of loss of documents. Now, I think these records are lost. Could have been by the Burmese raid of Ayutthuya, or destroyed by a new Khmer ruler. But there is no link whatsoever that links the rulers of Angkor Wat with the rulers of Ayutthuya. It is just complete nonsense and I have heard noone ever support this theory.

[SEAhistory]

And I've tracked from the first period of Funan (Hun Tien) until the early period of Chenla (around 610) and I still can't find anything related to Khmer yet.

This was the last stone script I read about King Mahendravarman (590 – 610) or Prince Chitasena, which believed to be a Mon lineage from King Fa Daad and Soon Yang of Kalasin.

http://www.sac.or.th/databases/inscription...hp?f=/342_1.jpg

This script was in Sanskrit. You can see translation of this script into French (by G.Cedes) and into thai (by Chaom Kaewklai) here.

http://www.sac.or.th/databases/inscription...hp?f=/342_1.jpg

This stone script was found in Ubonratchathani, northeastern Thailand.

It was talking about King Chitasena who was Sriveravarman's son, a grandson of Srisa(something), a brother of Sribhavavarman. He was given a title "Sri Mahendravarman". After conquering "Kampotch", he built this stone sctipt.

I believed that during his period, he took over Funan and forced them to retreat to Chaiya (and became Srivijaya) because Funan sent the last tribute to China in 572 and disappeared during Sri Mahendravarman (590-610)

Davarati (Po-li-lo-cha) sent first envoy to China in 583.

So, I guess there must be something big happened during this period and must be related to his conquering of ""Kampotch" in the stone scripts.

Still I can't find anything related to "Khmer" yet. Please don't tell me that "Kampotch" mean Khmer, "Kampotch" became the name of a country call Cambodia in a much recent period, not during those period. And the name "Kampotch" was from India, not a Khmer word.

And there was no "Khmer" script in Sri Mahendravarman period!

Prove me wrong, if you can.

Okay, very nice you found some inscriptions. I am only asking how do these inscriptions relate to the kHmer inscriptions found in cambodia, and to more modern Khmer inscriptions. All you prove now is that people in Southern Thailand were influenced by Indian and Malay people. But the language is not even related to that of Angkor. That my question, what is the relation with Angkor? The Varman title is not something they created and was widely used by Cham people and Idian people as well (see the connection: Champa, Srivijaya, Khmer).

[SEAhistory]

Here to give a better inside of Srivijaya 7th 13th century:



None denies there was a connection between Srivijaya and Khmer empire, but I would like to see solid prooth that Khmer language derrived from Southern Thai language. The first Khmer inscriptions derrived seperately from the inscriptions you mention, and what is the connection between those?

[SEAhistory]

Okay, very nice you found some inscriptions. I am only asking how do these inscriptions relate to the kHmer inscriptions found in cambodia, and to more modern Khmer inscriptions. All you prove now is that people in Southern Thailand were influenced by Indian and Malay people. But the language is not even related to that of Angkor. That my question, what is the relation with Angkor? The Varman title is not something they created and was widely used by Cham people and Idian people as well (see the connection: Champa, Srivijaya, Khmer).

Ow, and Kampotch was probably Kamboja, country of the Khmer.

[SabaiSabai]

Okay, very nice you found some inscriptions. I am only asking how do these inscriptions relate to the kHmer inscriptions found in cambodia, and to more modern Khmer inscriptions. All you prove now is that people in Southern Thailand were influenced by Indian and Malay people. But the language is not even related to that of Angkor. That my question, what is the relation with Angkor? The Varman title is not something they created and was widely used by Cham people and Idian people as well (see the connection: Champa, Srivijaya, Khmer).

The language of Angkor came from Chenla, not Funan. Why would it be related? Lol did you actually think there was one continuous link from Funan to Angkor? Lol ridiculous.

I have already explained where Angkors language came from. How on earth did you come up with trying to link Finan language to Angkor lol trying too hard to make us find a link where there isn't one? Lol retarded

Oh and one more thing. Chinese records said the people of Funan spoke the same language as people of tin sun (tennaserim) guess what language they spoke in Tenaserim lol where is the Khmer connection??????

This post has been edited by SabaiSabai: Jan 25 2012, 01:44 AM

[SEAhistory]

The language of Angkor came from Chenla, not Funan. Why would it be related? Lol did you actually think there was one continuous link from Funan to Angkor? Lol ridiculous.

I have already explained where Angkors language came from. How on earth did you come up with trying to link Finan language to Angkor lol trying too hard to make us find a link where there isn't one? Lol retarded

There is a relation in the Khmer inscriptions of Angkor Borei to later Angkor Wat. So these earlier insciprion of Proto-Khmer are the forerunners of Old-Khmer. But if the language of proto-Khmer were not the forerunner of Old Khmer, where are the inscriptions that developed to Old Khmer instead? That's the evidene I am looking for. If the descendants of Southern Thai built Angkor Wat, they must have used their own language. So where are the roots of Proto-Khmer? Is it so hard to understand? Please answer me this..

[KhmerBoi]

It's not Thai members problem if you have Chinese blood or not. We really don't care. But it's you khmer to start this 'blood maniac' first. Don't ack like some Lao trolls, when they lose they will say all Thai members are Chinese (true Thais dont' bash on them) LOL Now, Khmer member started this same lao shiet, saying Thai members can't discuss becos we are Chinese. Damn, look at yourselves, Many Khmer Chens in here. No Thais fuking care!!!

Lolzz Don't be ashame of your ancestor!! We proud to call our self Khmer!!! Don't need to mention about the word Kampuchea which mostly consider as the country name!!! Khmer is an ethnic as well as a nationality can be Siem do the same thing?? Nope!!!! ^^

[KhmerBoi]

What makes it an awesome language? because it is Khmer? lol yes we know how your mind works. Everything must be belong to Khmer and that anything attached to Khmer is awesome.

Siamese were already speaking this language from the beginning. The only new factor to be added in was the Tai language which came later. If you knew anything about the language and history of Thai language it would be quite obvious. But unfortunately your too Khmercentric to try and learn about the other side.

Siamese and Khmer is a similar language. This language came from Chenla. And no, Chenla was not in Cambodia.

I am so wonder why Siamese speak Tai?? it must be so ridiculous for an Empire language was dissapear from their Master but existed in the slave!!!!

[KhmerBoi]

what language were Siamese people speaking? they were already using the language in Chenla. Chenla is in Siamese territory. Did you think Ancient Chenla was in Cambodia? lol

Everything must be from Cambodia in your head it seems.

When i read the history of Thai language it come up to me that it was stole from the Khmer language!!! ^^ kekekeke
here from the international source!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_language


You know why we call you thief?? because they took something from Khmer and you label as Siem which trying to discredit Khmer!!! ^^

[LoveIsAllAround]

Lolzz Don't be ashame of your ancestor!! We proud to call our self Khmer!!! Don't need to mention about the word Kampuchea which mostly consider as the country name!!! Khmer is an ethnic as well as a nationality can be Siem do the same thing?? Nope!!!! ^^

LOL ashamed? Learn to read. ok?

Trust me in Thailand nobody wanna be called Khmen. I think you know the reasons why.

[LoveIsAllAround]

I am so wonder why Siamese speak Tai?? it must be so ridiculous for an Empire language was dissapear from their Master but existed in the slave!!!!

It's like you idiot Phnong speak Khmer right now. Or Khmer in US speak only English no Khmer. LOL

[KhmerBoi]

It's like you idiot Phnong speak Khmer right now. Or Khmer in US speak only English no Khmer. LOL

Ahh then you mean it was Khmer who rule this SEA mainland which base on Angkor?? kekekekeke and some Phnong become Khmer because they want to own this civilization?

But I don't see it happen the same why those Phnong who speak Tai? ^^


Oh you mean something similar to this love story of an Khmer-American guy with a Cambodian
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/...pera/index.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuNBI7d8DlM

^^ they might feel Khmer better then some Khmer in Cambodia!! ^^

This post has been edited by KhmerBoi: Jan 24 2012, 10:39 PM

[Leeporter]

That the first Khmer king is not related I can believe. That Khmer people used Siamese dance at one point I can belive as well.

I am glad I can convince you on that.

It's beyond my expectaction to convince stubborn Khmer members here.

My purpose is to post something that can be searchable for "real" historians and hope that they will investigate the truth.

But to be able to convince Khmer member like you, it's totally beyond my expectation!

Let's summarize what we've agreed on

1) Varman kings of Angkor were not related to Khmer king in the Chronicle of Cambodia (the original one, not the one rewritten by the French)

2) Today Cambodian dance were taken from Siam

3) Khmer borrowed counting system from Thai (counting from 30+ and the word "ha (5)" and "hok (6)" are hard evidences)

So, we won't come back to discuss on these relatively new issues anymore, ok?

We will investigate on the Angkor and pre-Angkor period (i.e. Funan, Chenla, Srivijaya, Davaravati etc) who is who.

At some point the Khmers had to turn to Siamese for reviving their culture.

There was no evidence that Siameses took the dance from Khmer, it's all from the French's imagination and from Mr. Thouinn who created such story.

Siamese (i.e. Ayudhaya) started attacking Angkor since its first day (1352), it's not possible for them to adopt the looser's culture.

I will explain to you later the relation between Angkor, Ayudhaya, PhnomPehn and Srivijaya.

But for now, Siamese didn't take the dance from Khmer for sure.

Siamese took dance from Srivijaya as well in South Thailand.

There you go, you know the history, don't you?

How come you cliamed that Thai dance was taken from Khmer and so "Khmer had to turn to Siamese for reviving their culture?

Isn't that contradict to each other???

I don't know what you want to prove by this. But linguistic studies, cultural studies all see how Siamese took everything from foreign rulers. And a lot came from Khmer.

People in this region communicated to each other and it's possible that some words are spoken than other word so it became normal word used, but it doesn't prove anything. Are you proving that Angkor was Khmer because there are some Khmer loan words in today Thai language?

Majority of loan words in Thai language is Pali/Sankrit, not Khmer.
And most of what you claim "Khmer" word borrowed by Thai are actually Pali/Sanskrit words.

The question is, what happened to the royal court? And the only evidence you can provide is a mythical story that was used before and probably was used to fill the gaps in what was a mystery because of loss of documents. Now, I think these records are lost. Could have been by the Burmese raid of Ayutthuya, or destroyed by a new Khmer ruler. But there is no link whatsoever that links the rulers of Angkor Wat with the rulers of Ayutthuya. It is just complete nonsense and I have heard noone ever support this theory.

I will provide you the evidence to support my theory later, but for now, do you agree that there was something big happened during the period between 1335 - 1360?

We saw the last Varman (King Varman) in 1328 - 1335.

We have the first Khmer king (King Nippean Bat) appeared in the Chronicle of Cambodia during 1340 - 1350.

We have the first King of Ayudhaya (King Uthong) around 1350, followed by a series of attacking from Ayudhaya to Angkor (and finally forced Khmer kings to abandon the city around 1433.)

All happened within a course of 20 years!

Do you think those events are not related?


This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 24 2012, 10:47 PM

[LoveIsAllAround]

Ahh then you mean it was Khmer who rule this SEA mainland which base on Angkor?? kekekekeke and some Phnong become Khmer because they want to own this civilization?

But I don't see it happen the same why those Phnong who speak Tai? ^^


Oh you mean something similar to this love story of an Khmer-American guy with a Cambodian
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/...pera/index.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuNBI7d8DlM

^^ they might feel Khmer better then some Khmer in Cambodia!! ^^

Iam talking about language changing. It's proved that the whole group of people can switch to others' language. Those langauge belongs to Khom. You were Cham, adopt to speak Khom.

[KhmerBoi]

[b]I am glad I can convince you on that.

It's beyond my expectaction to convince stubborn Khmer members here.

My purpose is to post something that can be searchable for "real" historians and hope that they will investigate the truth.

But to be able to convince Khmer member like you, it's totally beyond my expectation!

Let's summarize what we've agreed on

1) Varman kings of Angkor were not related to Khmer king in the Chronicle of Cambodia (the original one, not the one rewritten by the French)

2) Today Cambodian dance were taken from Siam

3) Khmer borrowed counting system from Thai (counting from 30+ and the word "ha (5)" and "hok (6)" are hard evidences)

So, we won't come back to discuss on these relatively new issues anymore, ok?

We will investigate on the Angkor and pre-Angkor period (i.e. Funan, Chenla, Srivijaya, Davaravati etc) who is who.[/b]




There was no evidence that Siameses took the dance from Khmer, it's all from the French's imagination and from Mr. Thouinn who created such story.

Siamese (i.e. Ayudhaya) started attacking Angkor since its first day (1352), it's not possible for them to adopt the looser's culture.

I will explain to you later the relation between Angkor, Ayudhaya, PhnomPehn and Srivijaya.

But for now, Siamese didn't take the dance from Khmer for sure.



There you go, you know the history, don't you?

How come you cliamed that Thai dance was taken from Khmer and so "Khmer had to turn to Siamese for reviving their culture?

Isn't that contradict to each other???





People in this region communicated to each other and it's possible that some words are spoken than other word so it became normal word used, but it doesn't prove anything. Are you proving that Angkor was Khmer because there are some Khmer loan words in today Thai language?

Majority of loan words in Thai language is Pali/Sankrit, not Khmer.
And most of what you claim "Khmer" word borrowed by Thai are actually Pali/Sanskrit words.




I will provide you the evidence to support my theory later, but for now, do you agree that there was something big happened during the period between 1335 - 1360?

We saw the last Varman (King Varman) in 1328 - 1335.

We have the first Khmer king (King Nippean Bat) appeared in the Chronicle of Cambodia during 1340 - 1350.

We have the first King of Ayudhaya (King Uthong) around 1350, followed by a series of attacking from Ayudhaya to Angkor (and finally forced Khmer kings to abandon the city around 1433.)

All happened within a course of 20 years!

Do you think those events are not related?

Some body help me I can't stop laughing!!

[KhmerBoi]

Iam talking about language changing. It's proved that the whole group of people can switch to others' language. Those langauge belongs to Khom. You were Cham, adopt to speak Khom.

Lolzzzz i ask you to tell me how Siam switch from Khorm to Tai? Is not that long only about 2 hundred years right? kekekekeeke and Again!! We and Cham are not the same and the proved is Cham in Vietnam Khmer in Vietnam Cham in Cambodia Khmer in Cambodia!!! but I know you can't say nothing about that!!! because you always fault to proof about Khorm!!!!!

Iam talking about language changing. It's proved that the whole group of people can switch to others' language. Those langauge belongs to Khom. You were Cham, adopt to speak Khom.

oh this one is might better to understand it~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7rB6yyLrLo&feature=fvsr

[LoveIsAllAround]

Lolzzzz i ask you to tell me how Siam switch from Khorm to Tai? Is not that long only about 2 hundred years right? kekekekeeke and Again!! We and Cham are not the same and the proved is Cham in Vietnam Khmer in Vietnam Cham in Cambodia Khmer in Cambodia!!! but I know you can't say nothing about that!!! because you always fault to proof about Khorm!!!!!


oh this one is might better to understand it~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7rB6yyLrLo&feature=fvsr

You said in Thai chat Khmer is Indian, Cham and Java. Now Khmer is not Cham. what's exactly Khmer? Are you confused?

[KhmerBoi]

You said in Thai chat Khmer is Indian, Cham and Java. Now Khmer is not Cham. what's exactly Khmer? Are you confused?

U dam!! I say Khmer ruling class!!!

[SabaiSabai]

here's the email I sent to Prof Charles higham.

Hello Professor Higham,

I am what I would like to call an amature investigator of history and have spent a few years doing research into the civilisations of South East Asia. I have recently watched a documentary that you hosted about the state of Funan. It was very enjoyable but it strikes me on a few points.

1. Funan was mentioned in the Liang Shu, Funan was located 7000 Li south of Rinan (Northern Vietnam) and 3000 Li south west of Lin yi (Champa).

Now I have calculated using an approximated distance as 400-500 meters per Li. This will then make Funan 3000 KM south of Rinan, north vietnam and also 1500KM south west of Champa. How does this then place Funan that close to Rinan and Champa?

Vietnam from north to south has is measured at 1695KM. According to my measurements it is almost double the distance away. It is also 1500KM south west of south vietnam. This also does not place Funan as mentioned in the Liang Shu as in Cambodia.

2. It is mentioned that Qiaochenru (Kaundhinya) came to Pan Pan and the Funan people welcomed him to become king. How does Oc Eo have any relation to Pan Pan? My colleague has found that there is a place in Thailand which fits to the description of Funan (There is a big river 10 li across, which flows from the northwest and enters the sea in the east.) This river is found in southern Thailand near a town called Phnom called the Tapi river. There is also mention that it is in a bay west of the sea. From this I take it that it is on the east coast of a land form and is situated in a Bay area. This does not look like a geographical description of Oc Eo or any kingdom in Cambodia.

If you can please answer how is it that you believe Funan to have been in Cambodia? and what sources have you used to ascertain such a definite answer?

Also, have you ever heard of the ancient Kingdoms of Sri Thep and Muang Fa Daed Soong Yang situated near the Mun river in Isan region Thailand. These kingdoms were said to be very powerful kingdoms that sprouted in the 6th century. What is their relation with Chenla? The 6th century is the time frame where chenla culture exploded through out S.E.A. Could it be that this culture had come from the Austro-asiatic peoples of this region rather than the Austro-asiatic group found in the lower mekhong delta valley?

Thank you for your time.

Kind Regards,

Jae Boonpeng

Still no reply wonder why.