To kill or not Options

[avisitor]

Here's the situation ...
You get hired to be the State's Executioner
It is honest work and the work load is light ...

Now comes the tough part ...
There is a most heinous murder
The accused declares his innocent strongly through out the court proceedings
Found guilty and sentenced for death

He comes into your care ...
You look at him and you see it is a friend from long ago
One who you had bullied and ridicule as a child
Do you carry out your job or do you excuse yourself???
Do you have any feelings about this???

Okay, lets hear anyone's opinion or questions ...
For elleXO and Chutzpah, we will say the accused is Muslim ..
For all others, we will say the accused goes to the same church or beliefs as you ...



This one is too easy ... who took my meds again??
Damn, not the green pills again ....

[DEL]

Easy? quite tough.

I would need to be absolutely sure he did murder someone. If he did, then i would have no problem punishing him.
Luckily, executioning someone is done with just a movement of the finger nowadays.

If i bullied him, then you would start thinking if this is all a reaction to your actions when you both were children.
But that was a long time ago and more could have happened. It might keep me awake a few days.

But the problem would be if he really did it or not. But if proof is strong and clear, we proceed.

If not, then i won't know.
And good thing i never bullied someone or that i am not a executioner.

[InitialDJay]

well i don't have emotion with criminal. if he is found guilty, i would execute him. past sin is non-excuse.

[avisitor]

Ones sounds full of heart and soul and then the other sounds so heartless.
Who do I believe??

Wait, it isn't about who you believe but how you feel ... ???
I would personally feel guilty for having bullied someone (in real life I never did)
And, then to have this person guilty of a heinous murder would set me into a soul searching trip
Why would the Universe set this up and what do I have to learn from this???

I guess no one else has any feelings???

[tangawizi]

Aren't you against capital punishment as a principle? Why would u take the job as the State executioner? If u have understood the noble 8fold path, is it a right livelihood?

Besides, as a spiritual man, wouldn't you just wanna give your best to helping him gain that momentum towards cessation of suffering as soon as humanly possible? If you truly have compassion, you'll find within yourself all the latent energies to bring him to a state where he's ready for an understanding of liberation. Even if that means, using supernatural psychic powers like the Buddha with Angulimala.

This post has been edited by tangawizi: Jan 8 2012, 11:37 PM

[avisitor]

Aren't you against capital punishment as a principle? Why would u take the job as the State executioner? If u have understood the noble 8fold path, is it a right livelihood?

Besides, as a spiritual man, wouldn't you just wanna give your best to helping him gain that momentum towards cessation of suffering as soon as humanly possible? If you truly have compassion, you'll find within yourself all the latent energies to bring him to a state where he's ready for an understanding of liberation. Even if that means, using supernatural psychic powers like the Buddha with Angulimala.

As much as you want to carry this light throughout your life, there are times for going with the flow
This is just a hypothetical question ... meant to pull out your inner being ... do you have feelings or are you solid logical without heart???
Geez, thought it was time to have fun ... guess you don't take breaks even in life???

Take a break and relax ... the mind and body needs to resat sometimes
You can tell when you get tired and/or sleepy

[tangawizi]

sorry, perhaps it's the image of the execution that conjured up feelings of aversion and revulsion ... i recalled tibetan monks being forced to pull the trigger on fellow monks by the Red Army... it's the same sh.itty situation except you are under duress and you can't walk away from just a job, so it's a seriously mean test of how far you are stir the bowl and drink it...

[avisitor]

sorry, perhaps it's the image of the execution that conjured up feelings of aversion and revulsion ... i recalled tibetan monks being forced to pull the trigger on fellow monks by the Red Army... it's the same sh.itty situation except you are under duress and you can't walk away from just a job, so it's a seriously mean test of how far you are stir the bowl and drink it...

The test is to see what kind of person you are ...
Do you pull the trigger or do you run away??

It isn't so much the situation as much as a test of one's resolve and soul.
It is just more drama for some and for others it is just a job.
Everyone is a little different. I hope that I am good enough to walk away from this with a head that is still screwed on right ... hehehe

[tangawizi]

I could never have taken the job of the State executioner.

I could never have taken the life of a fellow monk, the commie can kill me if he wants.

[avisitor]

Easy? quite tough.

I would need to be absolutely sure he did murder someone. If he did, then i would have no problem punishing him.
Luckily, executioning someone is done with just a movement of the finger nowadays.

If i bullied him, then you would start thinking if this is all a reaction to your actions when you both were children.
But that was a long time ago and more could have happened. It might keep me awake a few days.

But the problem would be if he really did it or not. But if proof is strong and clear, we proceed.

If not, then i won't know.
And good thing i never bullied someone or that i am not a executioner.

You don't need to know if he is guilty or innocent. After all, you are an instrument for the state. The state pronounced his guilt and decided his fate.
The test is in whether you question yourself and seek inside of yourself answers.
If you're unfeeling and logical then you proceed without question.
If you're human then you do what you have to but question the meaning of the Universe
If you're over sensitive then you walk away and find what your heart needs to satisfy your questions.
Your opinion is what is important here.

I could never have taken the job of the State executioner.

I could never have taken the life of a fellow monk, the commie can kill me if he wants.

Often the people in these kinds of jobs were born into the family with this kind of job.
No real choice. Life and God has predetermined your job.
So now it isn't a question of whether you will take the job ... you're born into the job.
Not doing your job would have a heavy toll on your family.
So now what do you do????
Remember that it is only your opinion that is important here.

[tangawizi]

Whatever choice the executioner takes, it's a choice that he must live with equanimity. He is not a cold steely instrument of the state. He could bring about a change of himself and his childhood friend in ways untold. He might help to end his friend's suffering not through the blade but through the mind. And then they both escape together into the wilderness and live like Moglee in the jungle.

[avisitor]

Whatever choice the executioner takes, it's a choice that he must live with equanimity. He is not a cold steely instrument of the state. He could bring about a change of himself and his childhood friend in ways untold. He might help to end his friend's suffering not through the blade but through the mind. And then they both escape together into the wilderness and live like Moglee in the jungle.

You're still the idealist. Wishing to have it your way.
That's great. I hope you stay that way.

Personally, the situation is suppose to put one through a range of emotions
and make the person think heavily about the meaning of life.
It is suppose to spark the fire ... to wanting more than what is presented in present life.
Well, guess I don't always hit the mark.

[tangawizi]

Losing your restaurant should be situation enough to put you thru the range of emotions no? Why presuppose an impending execution and gloom?

[avisitor]

Losing your restaurant should be situation enough to put you thru the range of emotions no? Why presuppose an impending execution and gloom?

It doesn't produce the same amount of soul searching
The situation has to be terrible enough to make one look for answers.

If Gotama wasn't sheltered from the suffering outside his walls ...
then when he actually saw the suffering, it would not make an impression upon him to search for answers.

Each person's pushing off point is different ....

[tangawizi]

Monastics are instructed by the Buddha to live as "islands unto themselves". In this sense, living life as the vinaya prescribes it is, as one scholar puts it: "more than merely a means to an end: it is very nearly the end in itself."

Do u think living in accordance to the vinaya is the only way to enlightenment?

[avisitor]

Monastics are instructed by the Buddha to live as "islands unto themselves". In this sense, living life as the vinaya prescribes it is, as one scholar puts it: "more than merely a means to an end: it is very nearly the end in itself."

Do u think living in accordance to the vinaya is the only way to enlightenment?

If I knew the way to enlightenment then I could give you an answer.
As of today, my mind and it construct is solidly intact ... no recent deviations ... especially from drugs
So, I can only guess at the answer. It would be this ... Each person has their own demons and angels
therefore, the way to enlightenment is not the same for you as it would be for me.

Buddha only had to hold out a lotus for his disciple to receive the transmission of the Dharma.
Me?? Not so lucky ... so I struggle with my mind and my karma ... working things out as I go along
Maybe I will be right or maybe wrong. Only an enlightened teacher knows for sure.
But, on my death bed, I wish to over dose on psychedelics and really go on a trip ... heheheh

[tangawizi]

Those guys watching Buddha pull out the lotus were already living in accordance with the vinaya. They weren't lay householder like you and me. They followed a life of the rules set down in the noble 8fold path, and had probably been following it for several lifetimes before.

[avisitor]

Those guys watching Buddha pull out the lotus were already living in accordance with the vinaya. They weren't lay householder like you and me. They followed a life of the rules set down in the noble 8fold path, and had probably been following it for several lifetimes before.

As with trying to enter the river in the same place twice ... it isn't possible cuz the river is alive and flowing.
So it is with people ... you can't look into someone's past and determine their present situation
You can only look at where they stand now ... look at here and now!!!

[tangawizi]

The vinaya needn't be a physical form, but rather a mental fabrication. A sort of clean monastic order in the head... can't it?

[avisitor]

The vinaya needn't be a physical form, but rather a mental fabrication. A sort of clean monastic order in the head... can't it?

All things we perceive ... are a mental fabrication. This is why some call themselves deluded in this rather mundane state of affairs.
We meditate to to release ourselves of this veil and allow ourselves to see what is there ... without our minds imposing a construct or order of things

Damn, you got me talking like the fool on the subways.
You know more than I do ... please don't grill me on things you already know the answers to ...??