Siam and Angkor? Options

[SabaiSabai]

I stated that Siem/Siam/Syam emerged during the reign of Suryavarman II which is in the early 12th century around 1113-1150. However, an interesting fact is in Mon history it also mention that it was receiving Tai migrations into its northern territory at the same time around 1000 AD when they were under Khmer rule. Now this is the beginning of the creation of Siem. I know some Lao members in here will deny any relation to early Siem, but it's most likely that the creation of Siem is a mix consisting of Mon, Khmer and Tai group living among the Northern territory of Khmer land. Suryavarman II (an usurper Khmer king) took advantage and gather some small pockets of Siems to join his military campaign to rule the Khmer Kingdom. Now this does not mean that Siem built Angkor just because Suryavarman had some of them fighting alongside his army.

lol which Mon record is this?


Anyway. The Po Nagar inscription lists the peoples that were captured as slaves and presented to the temple as a offering.

The list goes has Bagan, Syam, Lav, Kvir. Scholars have mistaken Kvir as "Khmer" and this is clearly seen in many papers written about the subject. However, the name Kvir appears again on a later inscription to mean Virapura, not "Khmer" as is first thought (did it have to be Khmer because it had a K in the beginning? lol)

This is a list of peoples present in SEA at the time which were recognised by the Chams. Following this list and using it as a reference to the geographical location of the people/kingdoms we can see that between Bagan/Burma and Lav/Lao is Syam people.

Khmers as a people were not recognised by what is supposed to be their rivals for hundreds of years. Khmers were not yet on the SEA political map. It could also mean that they were grouped with one of the mentioned peoples.

I have a theory that Khmers are actually part of Champa. The creation story as well as the Phra Thong myth coupled with the fact that Jayavarman II moved Khmer people into Northern Cambodia region leads me to believe Khmers were part of Champa.

The Translation of the Phrea Thong myth translated in 1886 by the french has Phra Thong taking over the Cham kingdom territory. This means that the Area was populated by Chams.

Now here's something else I noticed. Phra "Thong" is a Mon name. The word Thong to mean Gold is from the Mon word Thongkam. In Thai it is shortened to just Gold and in Lao it is just Kham. None of these variations appear in Khmer. Phra Thong was not Khmer.

Anyway, Suryavarman II came from Lava. This area is in southern Isan the power base of Ancient Chenla. This is the Area that the Chenla kings such as Bhavavarman, Citrasena and Isanavarman came from. This was not Khmer territory. Khmers were not in the Area this far north until Jayavarman II forced migrated the people of Vyadapura (lower mekong delta) to northern Cambodia. (Jayavarman II inscription, sdok kok thom)

Now restraining myself from throwing lots of other interesting things I've found, lets just stick to the Syam theory.

The Syam were the Kings and people of The Isan region of Thailand aka the kingdoms that were situated a long the Mun river. This is Chenla. Those kings that came from Chenla were Syam kings. This is the beginning of the Culture that sprang up around SEA. The language which is accredited to the Khmer originated in the Chenla period when Chenla kings were in power.

Chenla kings/people were not "Khmers"

Another interesting little twist is that Syambhupura can be pronounced in chinese as Syam (Tsien) Bhu (silent) Pura (La). The Chinese have always known the Syam people as Tsien or its variations. Tsien, Sien, Xien, Xian. All same sound.

Now back to Suryavarman II who came from Lopburi in Syam country. He was a foreigner to the Khmers (fits in with explanation given by local Khmers when first asked who built Angkor) To be exact Suryavarman II came from Phimai.

There was no record of a mass migration of Khmer people into this region or any other region north of the Dangrek mountain. The only record of mass migration is from Jayavarman II. This means that the base population of were not Khmers.

Now an interesting point in his post saying that Mons were under Khmer rule. It was Bhavavarman and Citrasena and Isanavarman who expanded the the Empire west into Mon territory. We know these kings were not Khmer. How can their kingdom be under Khmer rule?

Yasovarman I who is accredited for building Yasodharapura (Angkor) is connected with the Chenla (Syam) line.

[KhmerBoi]

Suriyavarman II was the one who built Nakorn Wat and he was a Siamese from Lopburi.

How did you conclude that Khmers built it???

Siem still doesn't exited during his reign.. Siem is Siem Syampura is difference. From Siem in SokorThei (sokothai).
Siem is the Nanchoa refugee and Syam is other Tai migration not the same group as Siem!!!

[Leeporter]

Siem still doesn't exited during his reign.. Siem is Siem Syampura is difference. From Siem in SokorThei (sokothai).
Siem is the Nanchoa refugee and Syam is other Tai migration not the same group as Siem!!!

KhmerBoi, before you go too far to Nanchao, let me show you some people in Suratthani, southern Thailand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BaseFeDvRw

These people are local Tai speaking people.

Do they look like Chinese for you?

You listen carefully to these people, they may be your Khmer ancestor.

This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 10 2012, 10:44 PM

[KhmerBoi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EANBpeBHT5Q...feature=related

http://www.satreykhmeronline.com/category/...nt-inscription/

http://www.cambodia-travel.com/khmer/inscription.htm

YEs it was Khmer Empire that these people couldn't understand!! how can slave understand about their Master!!!! ^^

Inscription K1158 found in Nokor Reach (Former Khmer province, now in Thailand). This inscription used the word SRUK KHMER (Country of Khmer = Cambodia), so it means that Khmers ruled Angkor Empire. Thai Pro. Chirapat Prapandvidya at Silpakorn University, translated this inscription in English :" Indeed, the images of Vrah (God) Buddhalokesvara were installed by the High Official Srisatyavarman, who had supernatural power, in the past, on Abhayagiri, with the intention that Jaya may not attack SRUK KHMER (Country of Khmer = Cambodia). Later on, the nine images deteriorated . The venerable teacher by the name of Dharanindrapura has renovated the deteriorated images and reinstalled them once again. In this way, they became free from harm. Indeed, his pupil, Vrah Acaryya Dhanu, has installed these images in the year 988, (Saka 988 = AD 1066) which is in the reign of His Majesty King Udayadityavarmadeva (King Udayadityavarman II) . May he live long and remain powerful for the rest of his reign.

Khmer people always proud of their nation, brave.. other why we will become Thai and Viet but look at our Khmer in Vietnam they always fight for their freedom and Khmer in Thailand still practice Khmer culture and tradition when I was in Thailand Khmer Surin and Khmer Buriram told me that the Thai government just stop allow Khmer to learn our writing about 40 years a go that why these Khmer-Thai in this generation couldnt know how to write and read Khmer and some of them have been education to hate Khmer them self..

[SabaiSabai]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EANBpeBHT5Q...feature=related

http://www.satreykhmeronline.com/category/...nt-inscription/

http://www.cambodia-travel.com/khmer/inscription.htm

I actually have an explanation for this too

This is from the Jayavarman II inscription

Now a little about Jayavarman II. He was said to have come from Java. This I have found to be baseless as there is no record from the Javanese kingdoms regarding a war with Cambodia or that they have ever occupied Cambodia. There is no record at all. Scholars have also suggested that this is actually a misinterpretation of Lava (Lavapura/Lopburi in syam country) as there is clear indication throughout the history that there was major interactions between these two areas. Lava will still be classed as a foreign source. Jayavarman II had conquered the people of Vyadhapura and moved them to populate his new capital. This is the most likely time that Khmers were moved from the lower mekong delta area into northern Cambodia as there is no evidence of them being in the region prior to this (This is the ONLY inscription with the word "Khmer" written on it anywhere)

The inscription is also dated 200 years AFTER the events of Jayavarman II actually ascending to become the king. There may have been a shift in power during those 200 years between the populace. Jayavarman II did bring an entire population to populate the area from Khmer territory. Is it a surprise there is a mention of Khmer in the inscription? The person who made the inscription may have been a Khmer and decided to use the word Sruk Khmer instead of Kamvujadesa like it is written in the Sanskrit section.

From this we know that Khmers were moved into the Area but the civilisation had already begun in the area before their arrival. The language and script had already surfaced during the Chenla period. The art style was already present too. There was no big evolution of the culture as the big event had already occured 200 years BEFORE Jayavarman II (invention of the script)

[KhmerBoi]

I actually have an explanation for this too

This is from the Jayavarman II inscription

Now a little about Jayavarman II. He was said to have come from Java. This I have found to be baseless as there is no record from the Javanese kingdoms regarding a war with Cambodia or that they have ever occupied Cambodia. There is no record at all. Scholars have also suggested that this is actually a misinterpretation of Lava (Lavapura/Lopburi in syam country) as there is clear indication throughout the history that there was major interactions between these two areas. Lava will still be classed as a foreign source. Jayavarman II had conquered the people of Vyadhapura and moved them to populate his new capital. This is the most likely time that Khmers were moved from the lower mekong delta area into northern Cambodia as there is no evidence of them being in the region prior to this (This is the ONLY inscription with the word "Khmer" written on it anywhere)

The inscription is also dated 200 years AFTER the events of Jayavarman II actually ascending to become the king. There may have been a shift in power during those 200 years between the populace. Jayavarman II did bring an entire population to populate the area from Khmer territory. Is it a surprise there is a mention of Khmer in the inscription? The person who made the inscription may have been a Khmer and decided to use the word Sruk Khmer instead of Kamvujadesa like it is written in the Sanskrit section.

From this we know that Khmers were moved into the Area but the civilisation had already begun in the area before their arrival. The language and script had already surfaced during the Chenla period. The art style was already present too. There was no big evolution of the culture as the big event had already occured 200 years BEFORE Jayavarman II (invention of the script)

?

[SabaiSabai]

Siem still doesn't exited during his reign.. Siem is Siem Syampura is difference. From Siem in SokorThei (sokothai).
Siem is the Nanchoa refugee and Syam is other Tai migration not the same group as Siem!!!

I think you need to reread your post and see if it makes sense to you lol

The people that took Sukhothai were TAI people. Not syam. Like I tried to explain before, the identities of these 2 peoples have been forced together and causes confusion.

Siamese are not Tai.

I will even make a very easy distinction for you. Do you see the relief at Angkor about the Siem kuk? look at what they are wearing. Tai men have always worn trousers since ancient times. There was never a period that they wore Skirt like clothing or dangling tassles. Those people are not Tai people, they are wearing a Miao Hmong-Mien style clothing. Tai people do not wear that, even in ancient days.

Actually Im not sure why this point has never come up before. Its quite a blatant one.

Another point about this relief and inscription is, does the inscription say that ONLY the people at the front were Syam? Syam kuk is Syam land. These are the troops from Syam land. How do we know it does not mention the entire army as coming form syam land? The artists may have portrayed the Syam exactly the same as the Angkorian army. Why? because it was the same people.

Im not sure why it is focused on a small part of the procession as being Syam troops when there is no indication at all. It is just an assumption. Syam country covered many regions and gave it access to regional troops such as the northern tribes. They could have just been skirmishers in the army. The weapons they hold is also in question as these types of weapons were not in use by the Tai.

This is just a blind assumption ignoring the details again Im afraid.

[SabaiSabai]

?

You've never actually checked the time line now have you lol

Jayavarman II 9th century

Inscription in sdok kok thom created 11th century

200 year gap.

Old Khmer script first appeared? 6th century

Expansion of Chenla 6th century

This inscription is a secondary source as it was not created during the time period the events actually happened. But it does give us lots of good information

[Suriin1234]

KhmerBoi, before you go too far to Nanchao, let me show you some people in Suratthani, southern Thailand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BaseFeDvRw

These people are local Tai speaking people.

Do they look like Chinese for you?

You listen carefully to these people, they may be your Khmer ancestor.

That language sound similar to khmer..well at least to me. What language they speaking?

[SabaiSabai]

That language sound similar to khmer..well at least to me. What language they speaking?

Im watching without audio (am at work) but Im guessing its southern Thai dialect

[KhmerBoi]

You've never actually checked the time line now have you lol

Jayavarman II 9th century

Inscription in sdok kok thom created 11th century

200 year gap.

Old Khmer script first appeared? 6th century

Expansion of Chenla 6th century

This inscription is a secondary source as it was not created during the time period the events actually happened. But it does give us lots of good information

Because that was Khmer combine together that we call solidarity and created the Khmer Script as the result!! and Sanskrit have only use as the message to the God!!! understand??

[Leeporter]

Now a little about Jayavarman II. He was said to have come from Java. This I have found to be baseless as there is no record from the Javanese kingdoms regarding a war with Cambodia or that they have ever occupied Cambodia. There is no record at all. Scholars have also suggested that this is actually a misinterpretation of Lava (Lavapura/Lopburi in syam country) as there is clear indication throughout the history that there was major interactions between these two areas. Lava will still be classed as a foreign source. Jayavarman II had conquered the people of Vyadhapura and moved them to populate his new capital. This is the most likely time that Khmers were moved from the lower mekong delta area into northern Cambodia as there is no evidence of them being in the region prior to this (This is the ONLY inscription with the word "Khmer" written on it anywhere)

I guess this is what you are referring to.

--
Java, Chama, Lava
The word in the inscription that has often been translated as "Java" has caused endless debate. Some early scholars, such as George Coedès and Lawrence Palmer Briggs, has established the notions that it is refer the island of Java in present-day Indonesia and quoted mythical stories of battles between the Khmers and Javanese. Later scholars such as Charles Higham doubt that the word refers to the island.[5] Michael Vickery has re-interpreted the word to mean "the Chams," the Khmers' neighbors to the east.
The letter J and L in Sanskrit-based alphabets are pretty much alike. Thus "Java" could in fact be "Lava" which was the former name of Lavo kingdom which is Lopburi province in present day Thailand. Note that Lava was a dominant kingdom during this period.
--
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayavarman_II

Siamese are not Tai.
I will even make a very easy distinction for you. Do you see the relief at Angkor about the Siem kuk? look at what they are wearing. Tai men have always worn trousers since ancient times. There was never a period that they wore Skirt like clothing or dangling tassles. Those people are not Tai people, they are wearing a Miao Hmong-Mien style clothing. Tai people do not wear that, even in ancient days.

Yes, I doubt it too. They don't look like Thai style dressing at all.

This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 11 2012, 01:28 AM

[Leeporter]

That language sound similar to khmer..well at least to me. What language they speaking?

They speak a Tai dialect called "Dambro". It's been used in sounthern cities of Thailand, some part of Malaysia and some part of Burma.



They believe that it's from Sanskrit Tāmbra (Pali Tāmba) for "copper"

Suratthani is where historians believe to be "Tam-bal-inga" kingdom.

Southern Thailand was where the Indian, including Brahman, landed on Suvarnabhumi.

The clip I show you are local people of Kirirat, a district in Suratthani (see the map above).

I personally believe that it was the center of Funan or Phnom.

Last week, while I was driving from southern thailand back to bangkok, on the route I found this Kirirat Disctirct, and another district nearby called "Phanom" and another district nearby called "Chaiya" or Jaya.

Later I will show you Funan arts found in Suratthani.



BTW, the reason I show you the clip is to tell you that Tai speaking people have been living here for don't know how long.

The people you see are local or a mix of local and Indian, they never migrated from Nan Chao.



This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 11 2012, 06:14 AM

[Nhoona]

I am fine, thank you, and you?

I am fine, thank you, sit down

อ่ะ I am fine, thank you

They speak a southern Tai dialect called "Dambro". It's been used in sounthern cities of Thailand, some part of Malaysia and some part of Burma.



They believe that it's from Sanskrit Tāmbra (Pali Tāmba) for "copper"

Suratthani is where historians believe to be "Tam-bal-inga" kingdom.

Southern Thailand was where the Indian, including Brahman, landed on Suvarnabhumi.

The clip I show you are local people of Kirirat, a district in Suratthani (see the map above).

I personally believe that it was the center of Funan.

Last week, while I was driving from southern thailand back to bangkok, on the route I found this Kirirat Disctirct, and another district nearby called "Phanom" and another district nearby called "Chaiya" or Jaya.

Later I will show you Funan arts found in Suratthani.

Langkasuka-Pattani 7th century
Chaiya- 8th century
South Cmbodia 9th Century

a hundred year gap

Khmer people have to change their believe that they are the first contact to indian civilization and Thai adopted second hand indian culture from them despite it is the other way around.



PS i went to northern Thailand, Chiengmai and Chiengrai ร้อนมว๊ากกเลย แต่สนุกดีค่ะ

This post has been edited by Nhoona: Jan 11 2012, 02:10 AM

[Leeporter]

Langkasuka-Pattani 7th century
Chaiya- 8th century
South Cmbodia 9th Century

a hundred year gap

Khmer people have to change their believe that they are the first contact to indian civilization and Thai adopted second hand indian culture from them despite it is the other way around.

ha ha ha .. I like that term "second hand Indian culture"

And your map is good too.

Khmer people always think that Indian flied across Thailand to Cambodia first.

It's ridiculous.

[LoveIsAllAround]

Thank you.

Actually, we don't even need more evidences; it's a welknown fact that Suriyavarman I was from Ligor or Nakorn Sri Dhammarat, southern Thailand.

What I don't understand is that why they said the builder of the temple was Khmers??

When in the same history book says that the he was from Nakorn Sri Dhammarat in southern Thailand????

They said the builder was Suriyavarman I and he was from Nakorn Sri Dhammarat and conclude that Khmers built the temple so it belong to Khmer??????

Are they nut?


BTW, to classify Nakorn Sri Dhammarat as a Malay state is not really correct.
People in Nakorn Sridhammarat speak a dialect of Tai, not Malay.

http://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B8%A0%E0%...%B8%95%E0%B9%89

They don't have written language, but their spoken language is a Tai based.

And one thing for sure, people of Nakorn Sridhammarat is not Khmer.

I guess they will claim Nakorn Sridhammarat also!!!! ha ha ha ...

I never say they are Malay. I think they had been influenced by Malay so they got the word Tvan. Sukhothai had Malay word Tvan, but why not Sri Dhammaraj? I am aware that people in Sri Dhammaraj are native, not Malay, Malay from Java, Aceh migrated to mainland penisular later.

[Leeporter]

I never say they are Malay. I think they had been influenced by Malay so they got the word Tvan. Sukhothai had Malay word Tvan, but why not Sri Dhammaraj? I am aware that people in Sri Dhammaraj are native, not Malay, Malay from Java, Aceh migrated to mainland penisular later.

Yes, Malay speaking people are a new comer in Malay Peninsular.

Actually, the peninsular was called "Lam Thong" or "Golden Peninsular (Aurea Chersonesus)" and it was a habitat of Siamese people who spoke Tai dialect.

It was the western colonists (again) who started to call it Malay Penninsular.

This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 11 2012, 02:46 AM

[KhmerBoi]

Yes, Malay speaking people are a new comer in Malay Peninsular.

Actually, the peninsular was called "Lam Thong" or "Golden Peninsular (Aurea Chersonesus)" and it was a habitat of Siamese people who spoke Tai dialect.

It was the western colonists (again) who started to call it Malay Penninsular.

Leeporter, how was your trip to Southern Thailand? Do you enjoys?? ^^

[Leeporter]

Leeporter, how was your trip to Southern Thailand? Do you enjoys?? ^^

Ofcourse, it's always enjoyable traveling in the south.
Millions of people around the world come to enjoy plenty of beautiful beaches in the south like Phuket, Krabi, Pang Nga, Trang, Samui every year.

Too bad this year we had a lot of rain and a flood on hiway near Chumpon on the east coast. So I have to use alternative route on the west coast instead.
That's why I could see many towns I never seen before like Kirirat, Tagola (Ta Gua Pa), and Phnom.

I just recently read a book talking about these towns being the center of Funan. So, it's quite exciting for me to drive through these towns.

The west coast and the east coast are seperated by a long range of mountains. To cross from the east coast to the west, you have to drive through a valley from Suratthani to Ta Gua Pa (Tagola)

And these towns are in this valley that link Tagola and Chaiya (Jaya) in Suratthani.

While driving through this valley, I can imagine why the Indians who landed at Tagola needed to go through this route to Surat Thani and then cross the gulf to Cambodia.

And why they called it Phnom or Funan.

This post has been edited by Leeporter: Jan 11 2012, 07:23 AM

[khmerpride]

I'm confuse , you guys claimed Khom People build Angkor now you claimed Siamese People build Angkor :/

This post has been edited by khmerpride: Jan 11 2012, 06:49 AM