Luzon as the Lesser Song Dynasty and related topics, Not for Sinophobes. Options

[ocrapdm]

The Luzon Empire (呂宋國)

Written History:
In 1279 AD, in the Naval Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) at the Pearl River Delta (珠江), the final conflict between the Mongol Forces (元) and the Southern Sung Empire (南宋國) was fought. The Mongol forces managed to advance to the center of the Southern Sung fleet and attack the boat of the child emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). Seeing no hope of breaking free, the Minister of the Left (重臣) Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) decided to commit suicide with the boy emperor rather than be captured by the Mongols. He jumped into the sea with the boy emperor and many officials and concubines followed suit. A few days later, the tattered remains of the boy emperor was found floating in Shekou Bay(蛇口). This sealed the fate of the Southern Song Empire.

Purported Oral History:
Before the final sea battle at Yamen (崖門戰役), Minister of the Left Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) disguised his own son to look like the boy emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). When the Mongols finally managed to attack the center of the Southern Sung fleet, Liu Xiufu committed suicide with his own son disguised as the emperor. The finest and most loyal of the Southern Sung fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑). managed to break off from the battle with the real emperor and escape across the sea. There they established the Lesser Song Empire (呂宋國) at its capital Tondo (東都).

Facts:
1. Even though the corpse of the last emperor of the Southern Song Empire was reportedly found, no graveyard was ever erected.
2. Chinese historians agree that the Southern Sung Fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑) did survive the final Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) and that they simply vanished from record.
3. Tondo (東都) was the capital of an empire recorded by the Ming Dynasty (大明國) as the Luzon Empire (呂宋國).
4. Luzon Empire (呂宋國) was conquered by the Spaniards in 1571 and the province of Pampanga was the first colonial province carved out of it. The whole northern island was named Luzon. Tondo (東都) still exist today as a mere suburb of Manila.

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"The Philippines then was made up of many little kingdoms with chieftains who were friendly or hostile to each other, but who recognized each other's independence. Trade and commerce was carried on among themselves and with foreigners. The Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, Siamese, Sumatrans and other neighboring traders had brought to the country their various customs and cultures, without attempting to bring the authority of their kings."


Certain tribes such as Tinggianes and Sambals have even the same hairstyles as the Chinese.

Even as Legaspi conquered the various kingdoms of Luzon, he noticed that there are already hundreds of thousands of Chinese concentrated in the central plains and western coasts of Luzon, either living in the city-states of the natives, OR LIVING IN THEIR OWN CITY-STATES. SO with regard to the last sentence, DO CHINESE have the right to the PHILIPPINES? THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES!

The Philippines belongs not only to the Taiwanese Aboriginal descendants or Malays but ALSO to the Chinese who settled here.

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Ming annals have reported kingdoms in Luzon and called their kings as "wang" / "ong" (in Hokkien). If not for their Chinese connection, they would be called and treated as "barbarian rulers".

The following selection talks about internal politics (and way of life including crimes) in Luzon and the large numbers and way of life of the Hokkien in Luzon. It also attests the closeness of Luzon to Zhangzhou (Fujian province).

The Ming Annals about Luzon in Chinese:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080618154044/...ztyz/ms323.html

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"Duck culture was also practiced by the natives, particularly those around Pateros and Taguig City. This resembled the Chinese methods of artificial incubation of eggs and the knowledge of every phase of a duck's life. This tradition is carried on until modern times."

"Some of them used compass similar to those used among maritime communities of Borneo and traders of China, although most had no need for such devices."

Even agricultural and farming methods in the Philippines were reportedly brought over from Mainland China, according to Prof. Arsenio Manuel and many archaeologists.

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The Haplotype O3 in many Filipinos (especially in Luzon) also attests to a migration from Mainland China.

The premier ruler of Luzon come from a long line of rulers (mixed Bruneian-Chinese) who settled in what is now Pampanga. They thus share bloodlinks with the present Brunei royalty, as well as with the royalties of Tang Dynasty and Song Dynasty of China. If you take a look at it, ALL the world's royalties are interrelated to one another, and this includes the original Chinese ruler of Luzon who intermarried with a Bruneian sultan and eventually gave rise to the Luzon Empire/Kingdom.

Kapampangans have oral traditions about the existence of a large "empire" that traded with other nations. Yes, this is the Lesser Song Dynasty of China, eventually localized into the Liu-sung-kuo, or Luzon Empire.

Manila north of Pasig River was still Kapampangan during the 1500s. Only around 1600s did the Tagalogs capitulated the Kapampangans and occupied Manila, Bulacan, Bataan, and Nueva Ecija. Otherwise, all these are Kapampangan territory. Kapampangans are largely descendants of AMI PEOPLE FROM TAIWAN, not Malay immigrants. On the other hand, Tagalogs and Visayans are partly Malays. Tagalogs were considered to be a Visayan people before (and up to now, pure linguists consider Tagalog to be a Visayan language). Tagalog region during the 1500s only consisted of Batangas up to the Pasig River in Manila, and a few plains in Laguna. Large swathes of Rizal and Quezon then were still largely Negrito/Proto-Ainuid/Australoid.

There were many city-states (city-kingdoms) in Luzon then. The city-states were not only made by natives - in fact, there were A LOT OF CITY-STATES FOUNDED BY JAPANESE, SIAMESE, and CHINESE MIGRANTS!

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So as you can see, the forced imposition of Malay ideals and supposed Malay connection to Luzon is stupid. Luzon is mostly Taiwanese Aboriginal with Chinese and of course, the usual Australoid suspects again. And the haplotypes attests to this.

The reason Luzon natives don't look Chinese for obvious reasons is that Luzonians, like other Filipino peoples, have heavy Australoid admixtures (6-35%, depending on the source), but still, that does not justify the willful erasure of the Chinese origins of the Luzon empire or the Chinese connection of Luzon's peoples.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 11 2012, 09:17 PM

[Leox]

I know these aren't directed at me and this isn't even the kind of topic I normally post on since I really don't care that much about ancient history, I'm more of a today and the future kind of poster, but I felt the need to comment on some things.

And honestly, I don't see why a Filipino would like to claim to be PURE Chinese. Only the ones who are Chinese would claim to be so.

I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...

DO CHINESE have the right to the PHILIPPINES? THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES!

It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Nothing against China at all. But I don't like it when people, even our own perpetuate ideas that certain groups are destined to be our leaders.

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 13 2012, 05:26 PM

[ocrapdm]

I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...

Yup. Pure Ethnic Chinese born in the Philippines are no less Filipino than the Taiwanese Aboriginal Filipinos (i.e., the natives/locals).

Chinese-Filipinos are BOTH and EQUALLY Chinese and Filipino. The problem is that some other users can't see that as a fact.

LOL. About the school... tell that to pommop/moppom above. He INSISTS that all CHINESE-FILIPINOS should speak fluent Mandarin and use Chinese characters flawlessly. However, as you and I know, this isn't the case in the Philippines where the Chinese are somehow assimilated to the dominant culture.

However, as a PURE Chinese person, I think you should learn somehow to speak your OWN language - if not Mandarin, at least some Hokkien (otherwise called here in the Philippines by Chinese as "lan-lang-oe" - our people's language). Not to mention that it brings more business contacts - most Singaporean Chinese and Taiwanese people speak Hokkien. Just my two cents though.

About the chhut-si-ia (who are mostly pai-hua anyway), they can deny their Chineseness for all they want. Anyway, they aren't Chinese anymore.

It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Yeah, but you gotta admit that the quote above hits anti-Chinese sentiments/comments. Look left and right online, there are a lot of locals who are vehemently anti-Chinese (and pro-America/West). Sometimes, you need to hit below the belt so they'll see, know, realize, and recognize who is the true hero/contributor and who is not.

The second paragraph is so true. Chinese-Filipinos are Filipinos and have EVERY RIGHT to the country just as the so-called "locals" do.

And just as you posted your reply in this thread, another Chinese-Filipino compatriot has been brutally killed by criminals the other day, with the police force, staffed by the locals, turning a blind side again. According to writer Amy Chua, the policemen are also envious of the economic success of the Chinese that they actually support/condone the killings by simply doing nothing about it.

Of course, let's not pretend to be blind and deny the thousands of Chinese kidnap for ransom victims.
Given that the Chinese-Filipinos have every right to the Philippines, if the Philippine government doesn't look at the plight of the Chi-Fils and do nothing about the rampant crimes targeting Chi-Fils, WE HAVE EVERY right to declare our own GOVERNMENT that will give us the protection and the RECOGNITION that we DESERVE and that we should ENJOY. Now, isn't that right? And I know that is a flaming conclusion, but again, it's reality. You can't keep on pretending like there's nothing wrong with the rampant thievery, kidnap-for-ransom, kidnap-slaying, and murder of scores of Chinese-Filipinos. These in fact have led to an upsurge of Chinese pride among the Chinese-Filipino youths of today, most of whom have visions of themselves living abroad.

Stupid comments made by some locals include blaming the melamine, drug smuggling, and other issues on Chinese-Filipinos. LOL. Most can't and don't recognize the difference between the local Chinese and mainland Chinese and even Koreans.

[moppom]

Yup. Pure Ethnic Chinese born in the Philippines are no less Filipino than the Taiwanese Aboriginal Filipinos (i.e., the natives/locals).

Chinese-Filipinos are BOTH and EQUALLY Chinese and Filipino. The problem is that some other users can't see that as a fact.

LOL. About the school... tell that to pommop/moppom above. He INSISTS that all CHINESE-FILIPINOS should speak fluent Mandarin and use Chinese characters flawlessly. However, as you and I know, this isn't the case in the Philippines where the Chinese are somehow assimilated to the dominant culture.

However, as a PURE Chinese person, I think you should learn somehow to speak your OWN language - if not Mandarin, at least some Hokkien (otherwise called here in the Philippines by Chinese as "lan-lang-oe" - our people's language). Not to mention that it brings more business contacts - most Singaporean Chinese and Taiwanese people speak Hokkien. Just my two cents though.

About the chhut-si-ia (who are mostly pai-hua anyway), they can deny their Chineseness for all they want. Anyway, they aren't Chinese anymore.



Yeah, but you gotta admit that the quote above hits anti-Chinese sentiments/comments. Look left and right online, there are a lot of locals who are vehemently anti-Chinese (and pro-America/West). Sometimes, you need to hit below the belt so they'll see, know, realize, and recognize who is the true hero/contributor and who is not.

The second paragraph is so true. Chinese-Filipinos are Filipinos and have EVERY RIGHT to the country just as the so-called "locals" do.

And just as you posted your reply in this thread, another Chinese-Filipino compatriot has been brutally killed by criminals the other day, with the police force, staffed by the locals, turning a blind side again. According to writer Amy Chua, the policemen are also envious of the economic success of the Chinese that they actually support/condone the killings by simply doing nothing about it.

Of course, let's not pretend to be blind and deny the thousands of Chinese kidnap for ransom victims.
Given that the Chinese-Filipinos have every right to the Philippines, if the Philippine government doesn't look at the plight of the Chi-Fils and do nothing about the rampant crimes targeting Chi-Fils, WE HAVE EVERY right to declare our own GOVERNMENT that will give us the protection and the RECOGNITION that we DESERVE and that we should ENJOY. Now, isn't that right? And I know that is a flaming conclusion, but again, it's reality. You can't keep on pretending like there's nothing wrong with the rampant thievery, kidnap-for-ransom, kidnap-slaying, and murder of scores of Chinese-Filipinos. These in fact have led to an upsurge of Chinese pride among the Chinese-Filipino youths of today, most of whom have visions of themselves living abroad.

Stupid comments made by some locals include blaming the melamine, drug smuggling, and other issues on Chinese-Filipinos. LOL. Most can't and don't recognize the difference between the local Chinese and mainland Chinese and even Koreans.

lmao except you said that you did learn fluent chinese in school.

And besides, the most damning evidence of all is that you yourself said 3 years ago, "No I'm not Chinoy."