Luzon as the Lesser Song Dynasty and related topics, Not for Sinophobes. Options

[ocrapdm]

The Luzon Empire (呂宋國)

Written History:
In 1279 AD, in the Naval Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) at the Pearl River Delta (珠江), the final conflict between the Mongol Forces (元) and the Southern Sung Empire (南宋國) was fought. The Mongol forces managed to advance to the center of the Southern Sung fleet and attack the boat of the child emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). Seeing no hope of breaking free, the Minister of the Left (重臣) Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) decided to commit suicide with the boy emperor rather than be captured by the Mongols. He jumped into the sea with the boy emperor and many officials and concubines followed suit. A few days later, the tattered remains of the boy emperor was found floating in Shekou Bay(蛇口). This sealed the fate of the Southern Song Empire.

Purported Oral History:
Before the final sea battle at Yamen (崖門戰役), Minister of the Left Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) disguised his own son to look like the boy emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). When the Mongols finally managed to attack the center of the Southern Sung fleet, Liu Xiufu committed suicide with his own son disguised as the emperor. The finest and most loyal of the Southern Sung fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑). managed to break off from the battle with the real emperor and escape across the sea. There they established the Lesser Song Empire (呂宋國) at its capital Tondo (東都).

Facts:
1. Even though the corpse of the last emperor of the Southern Song Empire was reportedly found, no graveyard was ever erected.
2. Chinese historians agree that the Southern Sung Fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑) did survive the final Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) and that they simply vanished from record.
3. Tondo (東都) was the capital of an empire recorded by the Ming Dynasty (大明國) as the Luzon Empire (呂宋國).
4. Luzon Empire (呂宋國) was conquered by the Spaniards in 1571 and the province of Pampanga was the first colonial province carved out of it. The whole northern island was named Luzon. Tondo (東都) still exist today as a mere suburb of Manila.

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"The Philippines then was made up of many little kingdoms with chieftains who were friendly or hostile to each other, but who recognized each other's independence. Trade and commerce was carried on among themselves and with foreigners. The Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, Siamese, Sumatrans and other neighboring traders had brought to the country their various customs and cultures, without attempting to bring the authority of their kings."


Certain tribes such as Tinggianes and Sambals have even the same hairstyles as the Chinese.

Even as Legaspi conquered the various kingdoms of Luzon, he noticed that there are already hundreds of thousands of Chinese concentrated in the central plains and western coasts of Luzon, either living in the city-states of the natives, OR LIVING IN THEIR OWN CITY-STATES. SO with regard to the last sentence, DO CHINESE have the right to the PHILIPPINES? THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES!

The Philippines belongs not only to the Taiwanese Aboriginal descendants or Malays but ALSO to the Chinese who settled here.

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Ming annals have reported kingdoms in Luzon and called their kings as "wang" / "ong" (in Hokkien). If not for their Chinese connection, they would be called and treated as "barbarian rulers".

The following selection talks about internal politics (and way of life including crimes) in Luzon and the large numbers and way of life of the Hokkien in Luzon. It also attests the closeness of Luzon to Zhangzhou (Fujian province).

The Ming Annals about Luzon in Chinese:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080618154044/...ztyz/ms323.html

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"Duck culture was also practiced by the natives, particularly those around Pateros and Taguig City. This resembled the Chinese methods of artificial incubation of eggs and the knowledge of every phase of a duck's life. This tradition is carried on until modern times."

"Some of them used compass similar to those used among maritime communities of Borneo and traders of China, although most had no need for such devices."

Even agricultural and farming methods in the Philippines were reportedly brought over from Mainland China, according to Prof. Arsenio Manuel and many archaeologists.

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The Haplotype O3 in many Filipinos (especially in Luzon) also attests to a migration from Mainland China.

The premier ruler of Luzon come from a long line of rulers (mixed Bruneian-Chinese) who settled in what is now Pampanga. They thus share bloodlinks with the present Brunei royalty, as well as with the royalties of Tang Dynasty and Song Dynasty of China. If you take a look at it, ALL the world's royalties are interrelated to one another, and this includes the original Chinese ruler of Luzon who intermarried with a Bruneian sultan and eventually gave rise to the Luzon Empire/Kingdom.

Kapampangans have oral traditions about the existence of a large "empire" that traded with other nations. Yes, this is the Lesser Song Dynasty of China, eventually localized into the Liu-sung-kuo, or Luzon Empire.

Manila north of Pasig River was still Kapampangan during the 1500s. Only around 1600s did the Tagalogs capitulated the Kapampangans and occupied Manila, Bulacan, Bataan, and Nueva Ecija. Otherwise, all these are Kapampangan territory. Kapampangans are largely descendants of AMI PEOPLE FROM TAIWAN, not Malay immigrants. On the other hand, Tagalogs and Visayans are partly Malays. Tagalogs were considered to be a Visayan people before (and up to now, pure linguists consider Tagalog to be a Visayan language). Tagalog region during the 1500s only consisted of Batangas up to the Pasig River in Manila, and a few plains in Laguna. Large swathes of Rizal and Quezon then were still largely Negrito/Proto-Ainuid/Australoid.

There were many city-states (city-kingdoms) in Luzon then. The city-states were not only made by natives - in fact, there were A LOT OF CITY-STATES FOUNDED BY JAPANESE, SIAMESE, and CHINESE MIGRANTS!

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So as you can see, the forced imposition of Malay ideals and supposed Malay connection to Luzon is stupid. Luzon is mostly Taiwanese Aboriginal with Chinese and of course, the usual Australoid suspects again. And the haplotypes attests to this.

The reason Luzon natives don't look Chinese for obvious reasons is that Luzonians, like other Filipino peoples, have heavy Australoid admixtures (6-35%, depending on the source), but still, that does not justify the willful erasure of the Chinese origins of the Luzon empire or the Chinese connection of Luzon's peoples.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 11 2012, 09:17 PM

[Leox]

I know these aren't directed at me and this isn't even the kind of topic I normally post on since I really don't care that much about ancient history, I'm more of a today and the future kind of poster, but I felt the need to comment on some things.

And honestly, I don't see why a Filipino would like to claim to be PURE Chinese. Only the ones who are Chinese would claim to be so.

I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...

DO CHINESE have the right to the PHILIPPINES? THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES!

It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Nothing against China at all. But I don't like it when people, even our own perpetuate ideas that certain groups are destined to be our leaders.

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 13 2012, 05:26 PM

[moppom]

I know these aren't directed at me and this isn't even the kind of topic I normally post on since I really don't care that much about ancient history, I'm more of a today and the future kind of poster, but I felt the need to comment on some things.


I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...


It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Just a question; if you really did go to chinese school, perhaps you could help us out with ocrap's odd situation

were there a lot of

filipinos

koreans

spanish mestizos [chinese spanish mestizos that is]

nordic looking anglo-americans?


ocraps chinese school apparently contained a healthy mix of the above in addition to the ethnic pure chinese.

[Leox]

Just a question; if you really did go to chinese school, perhaps you could help us out with ocrap's odd situation

were there a lot of

filipinos

koreans

spanish mestizos [chinese spanish mestizos that is]

nordic looking anglo-americans?


ocraps chinese school apparently contained a healthy mix of the above in addition to the ethnic pure chinese.

Depends on the school from my experience, generally Chinese schools here just mean they have a chinese class and practice things like Chinese new year and traditions, there are some smaller schools that emphasize more on Chinese I would assume the students there all speak Chinese probably more recent immigrants, not a lot of Filipinos speak Chinese so as you might expect those schools cater to a minority.

I studied in a bigger more recognized school and all general subjects were taught in english, Filipino and Philippine history were taught in tagalog and only one Chinese class. A lot of wealthy fil-chi tend to donate to these bigger schools so its heavily influenced by the fil-chi community. Students were mostly Filipino and Tsinoy, I personally find it hard to distinguish mestizos by appearance unless I know them by name, there were almost no Americans, some others like me pure ethnic Chinese but most of us didn't speak a lot of Chinese those few that did spoke Hokkien, Chinese (Mandarin) was the most annoying subject they pretty much just made us memorize words and sentences didn't learn much from that, I heard they revamped the teaching method after I left, pity would've been useful to learn mandarin.

My grandfather only spoke Hokkien no english or tagalog. My parents can speak Hokkien but having also been born and raised here they have difficulty reading and writing it. They didn't bother much to teach me and I regret not trying to learn earlier on.

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 13 2012, 11:15 PM

[ocrapdm]

Depends on the school from my experience, generally Chinese schools here just mean they have a chinese class and practice things like Chinese new year and traditions, there are some smaller schools that emphasize more on Chinese I would assume the students there all speak Chinese probably more recent immigrants, not a lot of Filipinos speak Chinese so as you might expect those schools cater to a minority.

I studied in a bigger more recognized school and all general subjects were taught in english, Filipino and Philippine history were taught in tagalog and only one Chinese class. A lot of wealthy fil-chi tend to donate to these bigger schools so its heavily influenced by the fil-chi community. Students were mostly Filipino and Tsinoy, I personally find it hard to distinguish mestizos by appearance unless I know them by name, there were almost no Americans, some others like me pure ethnic Chinese but most of us didn't speak a lot of Chinese those few that did spoke Hokkien, Chinese (Mandarin) was the most annoying subject they pretty much just made us memorize words and sentences didn't learn much from that, I heard they revamped the teaching method after I left, pity would've been useful to learn mandarin.

My grandfather only spoke Hokkien no english or tagalog. My parents can speak Hokkien but having also been born and raised here they have difficulty reading and writing it. They didn't bother much to teach me and I regret not trying to learn earlier on.

Well, the Chinese schools I know have at least three subjects: Hua-gi ("Chinese Language/Grammar"), Tiong-hap ("Chinese Communication"), and Suan-sut (Mathematics taught in a Chinese way). Some of the Christian Chinese schools have foreign students like one or two Americans or even Nigerians, but most are still Chinese, with some Filipino and now, Korean.

LOL. Pommop/moppom insists that ALL Chinese educated in Chinese schools CAN READ AND WRITE in fluent Chinese characters. Hahaha. Good thing you confirmed that Chinese-Filipinos can talk fluently in Hokkien, but do poorly in written Chinese. He doesn't wanna listen.

Most Chinese schools attempt to revamp the curriculum but almost all graduate without being able to speak fluent and read/write in Mandarin and Chinese characters, because rote memory is still the norm in teaching Chinese. On the other hand, for clans/families who speak Hokkien in a daily basis like mine, most family members are fluent in conversation but certainly not in reading and writing.

That seriously doesn't even make any sense... I have never had a person see things more my way by busting their balls. If anything they get more defensive, and I wouldn't characterize us Fil-Chinese in general as heroes anyway its just that we run a lot of businesses so we contribute a lot towards productivity and job creation, but we don't get into that out of philanthropy like anyone else we're motivated by capitalism.

Regarding racial crimes that problem does exist to an extent but I don't see how you help the issue by going about the superiority of Chinese history if anything it just enforces the belief that we're different and that the Chinese think they're better than Filipinos, which leads to further racial hatred. You're stirring up a hornets nest.

Maybe, but if that's the only way there is to raise their awareness, then so be it.

Not just Chinese-Filipinos, but even Mainland China. The "heroism" of China despite giving and lending billions of dollars to the Philippines and extending help in calamities has been consistently downplayed in favor of America. This is wrong. Most of modern Philippines has been built from Chinese-Filipino capital and money. There should be at least some recognition of that.

Actually that sounds crazy but giving you the benefit of the doubt, could you please clarify exactly what you mean, are you saying that we should have our own Chinese government in the Philippines just for Chinese? Maybe I just misunderstood you.

Out of curiosity where do you live now?

Yep, that's it.

Like Singaporean Chinese, Philippine Chinese do NOT want to separate from their host country.

But look at Singapore, the Malaysian government did not do anything to protect the Chinese community from the rampant race riots then and in fact went on a word-war with Chinese ministers. The result is an independent Singapore that does much better than Malaysia.

If the Philippines government fails in its responsibility to protect the lives and assets of the Philippine Chinese, WE MIGHT AS WELL START our own country and government. I'm sure it'll do much better than the rest of the Philippines, JUST LIKE SINGAPORE, because it has the capital and the necessary education and workforce. Just like Singapore, a large chunk of upper middle classes will move to that Chinese state in the Philippines.

As of now, that's still a hypothetical situation, but as the number of Chinese victims in the Philippines rises, that situation is not too farfetched. Almost everyday there's always Chinese-Filipinos getting robbed, mugged, harassed, or dissed in an online forum or radio/TV commentaries.

Maybe in the new generation, we can find some champions of Chinese-Filipino rights and if the hate crimes are not solved by the Philippine government, we can even have champions of Chinese-Filipino sovereignty.

The culture differences of the current Chinese-Filipinos with the rest of the Filipinos as well as the rest of the Chinese are already wide enough. We constitute our own nationality/ethnicity, with about 60% of the "pure Chinese" in the Philippines having at least one Spanish or Filipino great grandfather and practice mixed Chinese/Filipino/Hispano-American culture and traditions.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 14 2012, 02:27 AM