Luzon as the Lesser Song Dynasty and related topics, Not for Sinophobes. Options

[ocrapdm]

The Luzon Empire (呂宋國)

Written History:
In 1279 AD, in the Naval Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) at the Pearl River Delta (珠江), the final conflict between the Mongol Forces (元) and the Southern Sung Empire (南宋國) was fought. The Mongol forces managed to advance to the center of the Southern Sung fleet and attack the boat of the child emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). Seeing no hope of breaking free, the Minister of the Left (重臣) Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) decided to commit suicide with the boy emperor rather than be captured by the Mongols. He jumped into the sea with the boy emperor and many officials and concubines followed suit. A few days later, the tattered remains of the boy emperor was found floating in Shekou Bay(蛇口). This sealed the fate of the Southern Song Empire.

Purported Oral History:
Before the final sea battle at Yamen (崖門戰役), Minister of the Left Liu Xiufu (陸秀夫) disguised his own son to look like the boy emperor Songdi Bing (宋帝昺). When the Mongols finally managed to attack the center of the Southern Sung fleet, Liu Xiufu committed suicide with his own son disguised as the emperor. The finest and most loyal of the Southern Sung fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑). managed to break off from the battle with the real emperor and escape across the sea. There they established the Lesser Song Empire (呂宋國) at its capital Tondo (東都).

Facts:
1. Even though the corpse of the last emperor of the Southern Song Empire was reportedly found, no graveyard was ever erected.
2. Chinese historians agree that the Southern Sung Fleet under the command of Grand General Zhang Shijie (張世傑) did survive the final Battle of Yamen (崖門戰役) and that they simply vanished from record.
3. Tondo (東都) was the capital of an empire recorded by the Ming Dynasty (大明國) as the Luzon Empire (呂宋國).
4. Luzon Empire (呂宋國) was conquered by the Spaniards in 1571 and the province of Pampanga was the first colonial province carved out of it. The whole northern island was named Luzon. Tondo (東都) still exist today as a mere suburb of Manila.

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"The Philippines then was made up of many little kingdoms with chieftains who were friendly or hostile to each other, but who recognized each other's independence. Trade and commerce was carried on among themselves and with foreigners. The Chinese, Japanese, Arabs, Siamese, Sumatrans and other neighboring traders had brought to the country their various customs and cultures, without attempting to bring the authority of their kings."


Certain tribes such as Tinggianes and Sambals have even the same hairstyles as the Chinese.

Even as Legaspi conquered the various kingdoms of Luzon, he noticed that there are already hundreds of thousands of Chinese concentrated in the central plains and western coasts of Luzon, either living in the city-states of the natives, OR LIVING IN THEIR OWN CITY-STATES. SO with regard to the last sentence, DO CHINESE have the right to the PHILIPPINES? THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES!

The Philippines belongs not only to the Taiwanese Aboriginal descendants or Malays but ALSO to the Chinese who settled here.

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Ming annals have reported kingdoms in Luzon and called their kings as "wang" / "ong" (in Hokkien). If not for their Chinese connection, they would be called and treated as "barbarian rulers".

The following selection talks about internal politics (and way of life including crimes) in Luzon and the large numbers and way of life of the Hokkien in Luzon. It also attests the closeness of Luzon to Zhangzhou (Fujian province).

The Ming Annals about Luzon in Chinese:
http://web.archive.org/web/20080618154044/...ztyz/ms323.html

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"Duck culture was also practiced by the natives, particularly those around Pateros and Taguig City. This resembled the Chinese methods of artificial incubation of eggs and the knowledge of every phase of a duck's life. This tradition is carried on until modern times."

"Some of them used compass similar to those used among maritime communities of Borneo and traders of China, although most had no need for such devices."

Even agricultural and farming methods in the Philippines were reportedly brought over from Mainland China, according to Prof. Arsenio Manuel and many archaeologists.

___________________________________________

The Haplotype O3 in many Filipinos (especially in Luzon) also attests to a migration from Mainland China.

The premier ruler of Luzon come from a long line of rulers (mixed Bruneian-Chinese) who settled in what is now Pampanga. They thus share bloodlinks with the present Brunei royalty, as well as with the royalties of Tang Dynasty and Song Dynasty of China. If you take a look at it, ALL the world's royalties are interrelated to one another, and this includes the original Chinese ruler of Luzon who intermarried with a Bruneian sultan and eventually gave rise to the Luzon Empire/Kingdom.

Kapampangans have oral traditions about the existence of a large "empire" that traded with other nations. Yes, this is the Lesser Song Dynasty of China, eventually localized into the Liu-sung-kuo, or Luzon Empire.

Manila north of Pasig River was still Kapampangan during the 1500s. Only around 1600s did the Tagalogs capitulated the Kapampangans and occupied Manila, Bulacan, Bataan, and Nueva Ecija. Otherwise, all these are Kapampangan territory. Kapampangans are largely descendants of AMI PEOPLE FROM TAIWAN, not Malay immigrants. On the other hand, Tagalogs and Visayans are partly Malays. Tagalogs were considered to be a Visayan people before (and up to now, pure linguists consider Tagalog to be a Visayan language). Tagalog region during the 1500s only consisted of Batangas up to the Pasig River in Manila, and a few plains in Laguna. Large swathes of Rizal and Quezon then were still largely Negrito/Proto-Ainuid/Australoid.

There were many city-states (city-kingdoms) in Luzon then. The city-states were not only made by natives - in fact, there were A LOT OF CITY-STATES FOUNDED BY JAPANESE, SIAMESE, and CHINESE MIGRANTS!

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So as you can see, the forced imposition of Malay ideals and supposed Malay connection to Luzon is stupid. Luzon is mostly Taiwanese Aboriginal with Chinese and of course, the usual Australoid suspects again. And the haplotypes attests to this.

The reason Luzon natives don't look Chinese for obvious reasons is that Luzonians, like other Filipino peoples, have heavy Australoid admixtures (6-35%, depending on the source), but still, that does not justify the willful erasure of the Chinese origins of the Luzon empire or the Chinese connection of Luzon's peoples.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 11 2012, 09:17 PM

[Leox]

I know these aren't directed at me and this isn't even the kind of topic I normally post on since I really don't care that much about ancient history, I'm more of a today and the future kind of poster, but I felt the need to comment on some things.

And honestly, I don't see why a Filipino would like to claim to be PURE Chinese. Only the ones who are Chinese would claim to be so.

I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...

DO CHINESE have the right to the PHILIPPINES? THE ANSWER IS A RESOUNDING YES!

It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Nothing against China at all. But I don't like it when people, even our own perpetuate ideas that certain groups are destined to be our leaders.

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 13 2012, 05:26 PM

[moppom]

I know these aren't directed at me and this isn't even the kind of topic I normally post on since I really don't care that much about ancient history, I'm more of a today and the future kind of poster, but I felt the need to comment on some things.


I'm pure ethnic Chinese myself and see no reason why that would make me less Filipino, my grandparents immigrated from China, but I was born and raised here as a Filipino citizen and never really learned how to speak Chinese even the Chinese school I went to didn't teach it well enough since everyone spoke english and tagalog anyway.

Sometimes it seems like you (Ocrap) are so "Pro-Chinese" that you're actually Anti-Chinese, I mean seriously with such statements as these...


It's almost as if you're purposely trying to piss people off at us ethnic Chinese instead of promoting something constructive, you appear to be trying to emphasize some kind of racial/cultural superiority like white supremacists "We started everything, we're so awesome". I get that your proud of your Chinese ancestry, so am I but geez tone it down and don't flaunt it. Post historical facts as you like, we shouldn't suppress information, but statements like that quote above are highly flammable.

Whatever empire historically held the Philippines anyway has come and gone, the only people who has a right to the Philippines today are Filipino citizens, and regardless of ethnicity if you make a livelihood here, pay your taxes to the Philippine government and have your Philippines' best interest at heart you are Filipino. One's race should be irrelevant, nationality is what counts, and what culture one practices is merely out of personal preference.

I don't know if I'm misunderstanding you or what, I'm just commenting on what it looks like and clearly other posters see it that way.

Just a question; if you really did go to chinese school, perhaps you could help us out with ocrap's odd situation

were there a lot of

filipinos

koreans

spanish mestizos [chinese spanish mestizos that is]

nordic looking anglo-americans?


ocraps chinese school apparently contained a healthy mix of the above in addition to the ethnic pure chinese.

[Leox]

Just a question; if you really did go to chinese school, perhaps you could help us out with ocrap's odd situation

were there a lot of

filipinos

koreans

spanish mestizos [chinese spanish mestizos that is]

nordic looking anglo-americans?


ocraps chinese school apparently contained a healthy mix of the above in addition to the ethnic pure chinese.

Depends on the school from my experience, generally Chinese schools here just mean they have a chinese class and practice things like Chinese new year and traditions, there are some smaller schools that emphasize more on Chinese I would assume the students there all speak Chinese probably more recent immigrants, not a lot of Filipinos speak Chinese so as you might expect those schools cater to a minority.

I studied in a bigger more recognized school and all general subjects were taught in english, Filipino and Philippine history were taught in tagalog and only one Chinese class. A lot of wealthy fil-chi tend to donate to these bigger schools so its heavily influenced by the fil-chi community. Students were mostly Filipino and Tsinoy, I personally find it hard to distinguish mestizos by appearance unless I know them by name, there were almost no Americans, some others like me pure ethnic Chinese but most of us didn't speak a lot of Chinese those few that did spoke Hokkien, Chinese (Mandarin) was the most annoying subject they pretty much just made us memorize words and sentences didn't learn much from that, I heard they revamped the teaching method after I left, pity would've been useful to learn mandarin.

My grandfather only spoke Hokkien no english or tagalog. My parents can speak Hokkien but having also been born and raised here they have difficulty reading and writing it. They didn't bother much to teach me and I regret not trying to learn earlier on.

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 13 2012, 11:15 PM

[ocrapdm]

Depends on the school from my experience, generally Chinese schools here just mean they have a chinese class and practice things like Chinese new year and traditions, there are some smaller schools that emphasize more on Chinese I would assume the students there all speak Chinese probably more recent immigrants, not a lot of Filipinos speak Chinese so as you might expect those schools cater to a minority.

I studied in a bigger more recognized school and all general subjects were taught in english, Filipino and Philippine history were taught in tagalog and only one Chinese class. A lot of wealthy fil-chi tend to donate to these bigger schools so its heavily influenced by the fil-chi community. Students were mostly Filipino and Tsinoy, I personally find it hard to distinguish mestizos by appearance unless I know them by name, there were almost no Americans, some others like me pure ethnic Chinese but most of us didn't speak a lot of Chinese those few that did spoke Hokkien, Chinese (Mandarin) was the most annoying subject they pretty much just made us memorize words and sentences didn't learn much from that, I heard they revamped the teaching method after I left, pity would've been useful to learn mandarin.

My grandfather only spoke Hokkien no english or tagalog. My parents can speak Hokkien but having also been born and raised here they have difficulty reading and writing it. They didn't bother much to teach me and I regret not trying to learn earlier on.

Well, the Chinese schools I know have at least three subjects: Hua-gi ("Chinese Language/Grammar"), Tiong-hap ("Chinese Communication"), and Suan-sut (Mathematics taught in a Chinese way). Some of the Christian Chinese schools have foreign students like one or two Americans or even Nigerians, but most are still Chinese, with some Filipino and now, Korean.

LOL. Pommop/moppom insists that ALL Chinese educated in Chinese schools CAN READ AND WRITE in fluent Chinese characters. Hahaha. Good thing you confirmed that Chinese-Filipinos can talk fluently in Hokkien, but do poorly in written Chinese. He doesn't wanna listen.

Most Chinese schools attempt to revamp the curriculum but almost all graduate without being able to speak fluent and read/write in Mandarin and Chinese characters, because rote memory is still the norm in teaching Chinese. On the other hand, for clans/families who speak Hokkien in a daily basis like mine, most family members are fluent in conversation but certainly not in reading and writing.

That seriously doesn't even make any sense... I have never had a person see things more my way by busting their balls. If anything they get more defensive, and I wouldn't characterize us Fil-Chinese in general as heroes anyway its just that we run a lot of businesses so we contribute a lot towards productivity and job creation, but we don't get into that out of philanthropy like anyone else we're motivated by capitalism.

Regarding racial crimes that problem does exist to an extent but I don't see how you help the issue by going about the superiority of Chinese history if anything it just enforces the belief that we're different and that the Chinese think they're better than Filipinos, which leads to further racial hatred. You're stirring up a hornets nest.

Maybe, but if that's the only way there is to raise their awareness, then so be it.

Not just Chinese-Filipinos, but even Mainland China. The "heroism" of China despite giving and lending billions of dollars to the Philippines and extending help in calamities has been consistently downplayed in favor of America. This is wrong. Most of modern Philippines has been built from Chinese-Filipino capital and money. There should be at least some recognition of that.

Actually that sounds crazy but giving you the benefit of the doubt, could you please clarify exactly what you mean, are you saying that we should have our own Chinese government in the Philippines just for Chinese? Maybe I just misunderstood you.

Out of curiosity where do you live now?

Yep, that's it.

Like Singaporean Chinese, Philippine Chinese do NOT want to separate from their host country.

But look at Singapore, the Malaysian government did not do anything to protect the Chinese community from the rampant race riots then and in fact went on a word-war with Chinese ministers. The result is an independent Singapore that does much better than Malaysia.

If the Philippines government fails in its responsibility to protect the lives and assets of the Philippine Chinese, WE MIGHT AS WELL START our own country and government. I'm sure it'll do much better than the rest of the Philippines, JUST LIKE SINGAPORE, because it has the capital and the necessary education and workforce. Just like Singapore, a large chunk of upper middle classes will move to that Chinese state in the Philippines.

As of now, that's still a hypothetical situation, but as the number of Chinese victims in the Philippines rises, that situation is not too farfetched. Almost everyday there's always Chinese-Filipinos getting robbed, mugged, harassed, or dissed in an online forum or radio/TV commentaries.

Maybe in the new generation, we can find some champions of Chinese-Filipino rights and if the hate crimes are not solved by the Philippine government, we can even have champions of Chinese-Filipino sovereignty.

The culture differences of the current Chinese-Filipinos with the rest of the Filipinos as well as the rest of the Chinese are already wide enough. We constitute our own nationality/ethnicity, with about 60% of the "pure Chinese" in the Philippines having at least one Spanish or Filipino great grandfather and practice mixed Chinese/Filipino/Hispano-American culture and traditions.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 14 2012, 02:27 AM

[Leox]

Maybe, but if that's the only way there is to raise their awareness, then so be it.

So... we should incite racial hatred to raise the awareness of racial hatred?... Wow.
While I have no doubt that would work, it doesn't sound like the smartest of plans.

Not just Chinese-Filipinos, but even Mainland China. The "heroism" of China despite giving and lending billions of dollars to the Philippines and extending help in calamities has been consistently downplayed in favor of America. This is wrong. Most of modern Philippines has been built from Chinese-Filipino capital and money. There should be at least some recognition of that.

Everyone gives help for calamities even we do when China or Japan gets hit (not as much of course), someone gets hit we all give a little to help them that way we can rest assured that when we get hit we'll get help too, I think its a U.N. thing sort of like a global socialist policy.

When did they give us billions of dollars? I missed that bit of news do you have a link?

I do think we should shift away from America in favor of China for our economic development, but you seem to be overstating China's "heroism". They're businessmen they give us opportunities but they also seek their own profit. There are no heroes and philanthropists only good trading partners.

Every country works with its own interest at heart. Neither America nor China would ever go out of its way to save the Philippines. I'm not about to trade American heroism propaganda for Chinese heroism propaganda. There's much to gain from dealing with China but if you walk into a trade deal with China with laid back attitude and naively expecting their saintly generosity they'll squeeze as much money from the deal as they can and you'll end up with the least to show for it.

If the Philippines government fails in its responsibility to protect the lives and assets of the Philippine Chinese, WE MIGHT AS WELL START our own country and government. I'm sure it'll do much better than the rest of the Philippines, JUST LIKE SINGAPORE, because it has the capital and the necessary education and workforce. Just like Singapore, a large chunk of upper middle classes will move to that Chinese state in the Philippines.

As of now, that's still a hypothetical situation, but as the number of Chinese victims in the Philippines rises, that situation is not too farfetched. Almost everyday there's always Chinese-Filipinos getting robbed, mugged, harassed, or dissed in an online forum or radio/TV commentaries.

Maybe in the new generation, we can find some champions of Chinese-Filipino rights and if the hate crimes are not solved by the Philippine government, we can even have champions of Chinese-Filipino sovereignty.

The culture differences of the current Chinese-Filipinos with the rest of the Filipinos as well as the rest of the Chinese are already wide enough. We constitute our own nationality/ethnicity, with about 60% of the "pure Chinese" in the Philippines having at least one Spanish or Filipino great grandfather and practice mixed Chinese/Filipino/Hispano-American culture and traditions.

Well sorry but I'd have to say that's crazy, we don't have the right to set up our own government on Philippine soil and take some land call it our own specifically just for us. That's the same thing Taiwan did and what Mindanao rebels currently want. I apply the same standards across the board, Mindanao rebels have no right to set up their own country Mindanao is a part of the Philippines, Taiwan didn't have the right to break away from China and then claim Chinese soil as their own if they left to some uninhabited island then fine, we Fil-Chinese also can't do the same thing. If you don't like the way a country is being run seek to reform it, if it won't change and you really don't like it then every person is free to leave and find a different country that suits them you can't just rebel and steal land. Unless you really are trying to be a rebel like the Abu Sayaff.

There are racial targeted crimes here but you appear to be exaggerating quite a bit, most of the victims of muggings, political and street shootings are Filipino. Kidnappings do seem to aim for Chinese for the obvious reason that a lot of business owners are Chinese, and the government fails at protecting pretty much everyone except the corrupt elite.

Also the Fil-Chinese community is tightly knit around here so arguably we're even more protected than the common Filipinos because of our combined influence.

You complain about us not being recognized as true Filipinos yet you propose that we actually segregate ourselves. Do you not see the irony?

Some extreme Filipinos may resent us out of envy but others have difficulty accepting us as true Filipinos because a lot of Chinese still consider themselves loyal to China, so they wonder if we're really one of them or actually aligned with China. Most of the things you post around these forums seem to enforce the idea that we Fil-Chinese favor China, which will only make accepting us more difficult.

I love China the home of my ancestral and cultural heritage but as a Filipino citizen I prioritize Philippine interests first and not China's. You shouldn't have divided loyalties unless you're a dual citizen and last I checked China doesn't allow dual citizenship.

So out of curiosity what is your nationality?

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 14 2012, 03:49 AM

[ocrapdm]

So... we should incite racial hatred to raise the awareness of racial hatred?... Wow.
While I have no doubt that would work, it doesn't sound like the smartest of plans.

Not really raising the level of racial hatred, but of racial awareness. Or rather, the awareness that some races have done things that benefited the Philippines (e.g. Chinese coming to the Philippines resulting to developmet of skyscrapers, malls, service sectors, et cetera), while others did stuff that harmed the Philippines (e.g., genocide of the Filipino people by the Americans during 1899).

Everyone gives help for calamities even we do when China or Japan gets hit (not as much of course), someone gets hit we all give a little to help them that way we can rest assured that when we get hit we'll get help too, I think its a U.N. thing sort of like a global socialist policy.

When did they give us billions of dollars? I missed that bit of news do you have a link?

I do think we should shift away from America in favor of China for our economic development, but you seem to be overstating China's "heroism". They're businessmen they give us opportunities but they also seek their own profit. There are no heroes and philanthropists only good trading partners.

Every country works with its own interest at heart. Neither America nor China would ever go out of its way to save the Philippines. I'm not about to trade American heroism propaganda for Chinese heroism propaganda. There's much to gain from dealing with China but if you walk into a trade deal with China with laid back attitude and naively expecting their saintly generosity they'll squeeze as much money from the deal as they can and you'll end up with the least to show for it.

Billions of dollars, if added altogether. Not to mention the Northrail and a lot of infrastructure projects that the Chinese from Mainland are doing. Mind you, the Americans haven't even left a FUNCTIONAL CAPITAL when they left the Philippines on 1946! If there's someone who is responsible to pull the Philippines back to its former glory through rebuilding of destroyed and damaged infrastructure, it would be the Americans. After all, the Philippines wouldn't be destroyed if we're not an American colony during the WWII.

True, neither America nor China would go out its way to save the Philippines just for the sake of it. But comparing the two, China is definitely the lesser of two evils. After all, there was NO history that the Chinese committed genocide against Filipinos (on the other hand, the Americans killed 1/3 of all Filipinos during the Fil-Am war of 1898-1902) or that Chinese colonized the Philippines (which is what the US did). Likewise, there's no cultural imperialism (Filipinos of today play basketball, speak English, and practice American traditions).

Well sorry but I'd have to say that's crazy, we don't have the right to set up our own government on Philippine soil and take some land call it our own specifically just for us. That's the same thing Taiwan did and what Mindanao rebels currently want. I apply the same standards across the board, Mindanao rebels have no right to set up their own country Mindanao is a part of the Philippines, Taiwan didn't have the right to break away from China and then claim Chinese soil as their own if they left to some uninhabited island then fine, we Fil-Chinese also can't do the same thing. If you don't like the way a country is being run seek to reform it, if it won't change and you really don't like it then every person is free to leave and find a different country that suits them you can't just rebel and steal land. Unless you really are trying to be a rebel like the Abu Sayaff.

Oh, but we do!! Remember, like I said, Chinese have every right to the Philippines? If you agree with that, then you'll surely agree as well that the Chinese, having roots in this country since the prehistoric times, can declare independence IF THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT DOES NOT DO ANYTHING TO PROTECT ITS CITIZENS who happen to have a different ancestry. And besides, most of modern Philippines is the product of Chinese capital and trade anyway. From the late 1700s onward, the only thing that keeps the Philippine economy alive would be the money coming from the Chinese-Filipinos.

And you might as well say that Singaporean Chinese don't have the right to set up their own government in what was formerly Pulau Singapura of Malaysia!! They seceded because they were forced to do so because they feel that they aren't protected. Later, Tunku Abdul Rahman, in a face saving gesture, "forced" Singapore to be independent. But in the outset, he already knows that S'Pore's gonna declare independence soon. He just hastened the process to save face.

It's not stealing land. It's just taking a bit or a parcel of what is ours through history (Chinese were present since the 9th century AD), bloodlines (60% of pure Chinese have minimal amount of Filipino and/or Spanish blood), and wealth (Chinese capital propped up Philippine economy until now).

Obviously, I belong to the "60% of pure Chinese with minimal Filipino AND Spanish blood. And that's the reason I am more vocal, because aside from my rights to the Philippines being a Chinese, I also have my rights to the Philippines since I have 1/8 Filipino and Spanish blood.

Actually, Mindanao people have the right to declare independence BECAUSE THEY AREN'T REPRESENTED WELL IN THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. THERE SHOULD BE AT LEAST ONE SEAT IN THE PHILIPPINE SENATE FOR THE MUSLIMS, AND ANOTHER ONE FOR THE CHINESE. After all, the Muslims and the Chinese are the TWO LARGEST minorities in the Philippines.

There are racial targeted crimes here but you appear to be exaggerating quite a bit, most of the victims of muggings, political and street shootings are Filipino. Kidnappings do seem to aim for Chinese for the obvious reason that a lot of business owners are Chinese, and the government fails at protecting pretty much everyone except the corrupt elite.

Maybe, but then, even Amy Chua noticed that there seems to be a double standard when handling crimes involving Chinese as victims.

Look at the botched Hostage Taking Crisis in Luneta. If the tourists were Americans, the government would've acted quickly. But seeing that they are Chinese (basta not Whites), they just dismissed the incident.

And yeah, precisely, most of the business owners are Chinese. And so the government must be extra keen to protect the Chinese community from such victimization and culture of impunity. After all, the Chinese capital is the lifeblood of the Philippine economy.

Also the Fil-Chinese community is tightly knit around here so arguably we're even more protected than the common Filipinos because of our combined influence.

Yep, especially for the Christian (Protestant) Chinese community in Metro Manila , which is extremely tightly-knit and most people know each other.

For the most part though, certain communities are more attached to each other. Chinese-Fils from Quezon City for example, get well with Chinese-Fils from Caloocan and San Juan. On the other hand, the Chinese-Fil community in Makati and Alabang keep to themselves and many of them are partially Spanish or American (e.g., Ongpin, Uytengsu, Cojuangco).

You complain about us not being recognized as true Filipinos yet you propose that we actually segregate ourselves. Do you not see the irony?

If the Philippine government does its best to protect its citizens of Chinese ancestry and promotes equal representation of the Chinese in the Philippine parliament, THEN, THERE IS NO NEED TO SEGREGATE OURSELVES or to even go as far as to create our "own" country.

Some extreme Filipinos may resent us out of envy but others have difficulty accepting us as true Filipinos because a lot of Chinese still consider themselves loyal to China, so they wonder if we're really one of them or actually aligned with China. Most of the things you post around these forums seem to enforce the idea that we Fil-Chinese favor China, which will only make accepting us more difficult.

I love China the home of my ancestral and cultural heritage but as a Filipino citizen I prioritize Philippine interests first and not China's. You shouldn't have divided loyalties unless you're a dual citizen and last I checked China doesn't allow dual citizenship.

So out of curiosity what is your nationality?

I don't see anything wrong with being loyal to China. We see an upsurge of interest in Chinese culture and heritage (and increase in Chinese pride) among young Chinese-Filipinos nowadays, partially because of China's rising, and also partially, because of the perception of the Chinese as being "faux Filipinos".
It's GOOD AND NICE to be loyal to BOTH CHINA and the PHILIPPINES. China, after all, is our ancestral home, while the Philippines, is our current home. Both should be equal.


Ummm, actually, ALL OVERSEAS CHINESE are DE FACTO CHINESE CITIZENS. Chinese citizens of Republic of China (Taiwan), that is.

In case you don't know, YOU (as well as any other Chinese-Filipino) have the right to carry a Republic of China (Taiwan) passport and to run as a member of the R.O.C. (Taiwan) parliament, which has allocated 8 seats for Overseas Chinese. Many of my relatives carry R.O.C. passports for convenience, because they grant visas a lot more quickly compared when using a Philippine passport. LOL. I myself plan to use an R.O.C. passport also to be avoid the hassles of using a Philippine passport.

Anyway, so IF YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, we're EVEN MORE REPRESENTED in the Chinese parliament than in the Philippine parliament, which has no allocated SENATE or CONGRESS seats specifically for minorities including the Chinese.

This post has been edited by ocrapdm: Jan 14 2012, 04:42 AM

[Leox]

Oh, but we do!! Remember, like I said, Chinese have every right to the Philippines? If you agree with that, then you'll surely agree as well that the Chinese, having roots in this country since the prehistoric times, can declare independence IF THE CURRENT GOVERNMENT DOES NOT DO ANYTHING TO PROTECT ITS CITIZENS who happen to have a different ancestry. And besides, most of modern Philippines is the product of Chinese capital and trade anyway. From the late 1700s onward, the only thing that keeps the Philippine economy alive would be the money coming from the Chinese-Filipinos.

And you might as well say that Singaporean Chinese don't have the right to set up their own government in what was formerly Pulau Singapura of Malaysia!! They seceded because they were forced to do so because they feel that they aren't protected. Later, Tunku Abdul Rahman, in a face saving gesture, "forced" Singapore to be independent. But in the outset, he already knows that S'Pore's gonna declare independence soon. He just hastened the process to save face.

Filipino citizens have a right to the Philippines that includes Fil-Chinese yes, but the Abu Sayaff are also Philippine citizens they don't get to keep Mindanao and break away, because no citizen has a right to break laws.

Regarding Singapore yes technically they didn't have that right, if they forced independence that's effectively a revolution like America declaring independence from Britain. They didn't have the rights they wanted so they fought the system and won, it may have been for the best but that's still a rebellion.

Also if you go by this standard then you should support the independence of Taiwan, because clearly they felt the CCP didn't protect their democratic rights which is of course true since China isn't democratic. If every unhappy minority claimed a parcel of land and broke away from their nation it would be chaos.

You can expect most governments to take action, and that's not going to end well for our minority, besides we're doing pretty well for ourselves in the Philippines, there's no reason to incite a fruitless conflict.

It's not stealing land. It's just taking a bit or a parcel of what is ours through history (Chinese were present since the 9th century AD), bloodlines (60% of pure Chinese have minimal amount of Filipino and/or Spanish blood), and wealth (Chinese capital propped up Philippine economy until now).

The Taiwanese were Chinese too, Taiwan is a part of their history so by your standard they didn't steal it either, yet I doubt China would see things the same way.

Actually, Mindanao people have the right to declare independence BECAUSE THEY AREN'T REPRESENTED WELL IN THE NATIONAL GOVERNMENT. THERE SHOULD BE AT LEAST ONE SEAT IN THE PHILIPPINE SENATE FOR THE MUSLIMS, AND ANOTHER ONE FOR THE CHINESE. After all, the Muslims and the Chinese are the TWO LARGEST minorities in the Philippines.

You support their rebel movement as justified?

Maybe, but then, even Amy Chua noticed that there seems to be a double standard when handling crimes involving Chinese as victims.

Look at the botched Hostage Taking Crisis in Luneta. If the tourists were Americans, the government would've acted quickly. But seeing that they are Chinese (basta not Whites), they just dismissed the incident.

Well that's somewhat speculation, there's no question it was botched and our government should have apologized for that incident, but we can't really say what would happen if it were an American tour bus, I'm pretty sure our government would have botched it either way.

And yeah, precisely, most of the business owners are Chinese. And so the government must be extra keen to protect the Chinese community from such victimization and culture of impunity. After all, the Chinese capital is the lifeblood of the Philippine economy.

Actually no they have no obligation to be extra keen with us, government protection shouldn't favor specific classes. It would of course be more beneficial for the economy to protect business owners but constitutionally we deserve no more than everyone else, and as far the the justice system goes in the Philippines we're ALL screwed except for those friends with select politicians.

I don't see anything wrong with being loyal to China. We see an upsurge of interest in Chinese culture and heritage (and increase in Chinese pride) among young Chinese-Filipinos nowadays, partially because of China's rising, and also partially, because of the perception of the Chinese as being "faux Filipinos".
It's GOOD AND NICE to be loyal to BOTH CHINA and the PHILIPPINES. China, after all, is our ancestral home, while the Philippines, is our current home. Both should be equal.

Oh there's nothing wrong with warming up to China and appreciating ones cultural heritage, but if hypothetically if there was conflict between China and the Philippines and the Fil-Chinese community whom are Filipino citizens just sat it out, you should be able to understand why that might rub Filipinos the wrong way. We're hand in hand with them until we're forced to choose then we stay neutral, gives them the impression that they can't always count on us as Filipino citizens for the Philippines. I wish China would allow dual citizenships so that we would have a valid reason to stay neutral in such matters.

Ummm, actually, ALL OVERSEAS CHINESE are DE FACTO CHINESE CITIZENS. Chinese citizens of Republic of China (Taiwan), that is.

In case you don't know, YOU (as well as any other Chinese-Filipino) have the right to carry a Republic of China (Taiwan) passport and to run as a member of the R.O.C. (Taiwan) parliament, which has allocated 8 seats for Overseas Chinese. Many of my relatives carry R.O.C. passports for convenience, because they grant visas a lot more quickly compared when using a Philippine passport. LOL. I myself plan to use an R.O.C. passport also to be avoid the hassles of using a Philippine passport.

That's only because Taiwan is trying to goad more chinese citizens over from China to join them.

the PRC sees it differently

Article 9: Any Chinese national who has settled abroad and who has been naturalized as a foreign national or has acquired foreign nationality of his own free will shall automatically lose Chinese nationality.

Besides the influential Fil-Chinese community of the Philippines bonding with Taiwan might add further tensions with China, and we all know the economic consequences of such a move.

[ocrapdm]

Filipino citizens have a right to the Philippines that includes Fil-Chinese yes, but the Abu Sayaff are also Philippine citizens they don't get to keep Mindanao and break away, because no citizen has a right to break laws.

Regarding Singapore yes technically they didn't have that right, if they forced independence that's effectively a revolution like America declaring independence from Britain. They didn't have the rights they wanted so they fought the system and won, it may have been for the best but that's still a rebellion.

Also if you go by this standard then you should support the independence of Taiwan, because clearly they felt the CCP didn't protect their democratic rights which is of course true since China isn't democratic. If every unhappy minority claimed a parcel of land and broke away from their nation it would be chaos.

You can expect most governments to take action, and that's not going to end well for our minority, besides we're doing pretty well for ourselves in the Philippines, there's no reason to incite a fruitless conflict.

The Taiwanese were Chinese too, Taiwan is a part of their history so by your standard they didn't steal it either, yet I doubt China would see things the same way.

Of course, no citizens have the right to break laws. But if you feel that you are a nation-group that should not be bound to the laws of the land made by the majority (who are ethnically different from you and may have different customs and traditions), then that's a different matter. For the Bangsamoro for example, their actions (e.g., hostaging, killing, raping) are wrong, but their ideology and aim is justifiable in their own point of view.

It may be a rebellion in the EYES of the Malays (well, actually, the Malays themselves forced the Chinese to declare Spore as independent), but it certainly did MUCH GOOD for the Chinese of the Malay Peninsula. They now HAVE their OWN government in which THEY have the say and THEY control. The MALAYS did NOTHING GOOD in Singapore, so what's the use of Singapore sticking with Malaysia?

I'm talking about minorities who are not part of the majority AND ARE SHORTCHANGED: Chinese in Malaya, for example, who made Singapore. Taiwan on the other hand, is of the same ethnic group as the other Han Chinese in Mainland and are not all shortchanged when it comes to democracy - because the PRC actually offers them a status similar to Hong Kong where they get to control their own affairs and remain democratic, but they refuse.

Doing pretty well in what? Economy? Yes, but what is doing good in economy if your children get kidnapped all of the time or your relative gets killed because of a robbery? It would not be a fruitless conflict. It would be the dawn of an era of a shortchanged ethnic minority who are well-off and well-educated.

Of course all these would NOT be necessary if the government really showed goodwill in extending their hand toward the Chinese-Filipinos, such as by reserving ONE seat in the Senate to represent the Chinese-Filipino group (they should also do the same to the Bangsamoro and Igorots) ,declaration of Chinese as a constitutional language (as what Spanish and Arabic are now), and beefing up the security of Chinese-Filipinos against almost daily crimes, however minor these are.

You support their rebel movement as justified?

Like I said above, if they are SHORTCHANGED, then why not.

Look at underdeveloped Mindanao versus overdeveloped environs of Central Luzon. Hmmmm. Now you still wonder why the Moros there are fuming?!?!?!

How about the profiling of Moros as bad people by the general public?

Well that's somewhat speculation, there's no question it was botched and our government should have apologized for that incident, but we can't really say what would happen if it were an American tour bus, I'm pretty sure our government would have botched it either way.

Uh no. I'm sure they would've killed the hostage taker if the bus was fullof American tourists. Obama would've instructed them to do so.
Filipinos' superior view of Americans would compel them to protect their white gods.

Actually no they have no obligation to be extra keen with us, government protection shouldn't favor specific classes. It would of course be more beneficial for the economy to protect business owners but constitutionally we deserve no more than everyone else, and as far the the justice system goes in the Philippines we're ALL screwed except for those friends with select politicians.

Oh, but government's protection falls short of protecting its citizens, especially those of Chinese heritage.

Oh there's nothing wrong with warming up to China and appreciating ones cultural heritage, but if hypothetically if there was conflict between China and the Philippines and the Fil-Chinese community whom are Filipino citizens just sat it out, you should be able to understand why that might rub Filipinos the wrong way. We're hand in hand with them until we're forced to choose then we stay neutral, gives them the impression that they can't always count on us as Filipino citizens for the Philippines. I wish China would allow dual citizenships so that we would have a valid reason to stay neutral in such matters.

Actually, in any conflict between China and the Philippines, you should SIDE with the CORRECT COUNTRY, and now just stay neutral.

For example, in the Spratlys conflict, China has occupied the islands since 110 AD and here comes newcomer Philippines, toting its flag over one of the islands on 1956 AD. Of course, China has the most correct view. Even American authors who analyzed the problem were in a way forced to admit that really, China is the only country who have the rights to own the Spratlys (Nanshas).

You yourself are already a de facto dual citizen, as are all Chinese-Filipinos. As I've said, all Chinese-Filipinos are technically Republic of China citizens and are entitled to a R.O.C. passport and residency rights should they choose to. (Right to Return Law)

Also, as a sidenote, Philippine citizens (like Latin Americans) need only two years of residency in Spain to gain Spanish-European citizenship. All other nationals need five years. This is on the premise that "all Filipinos are descendants of Spaniards and are blood brothers to the Spanish" (Right to Return Law).

That's only because Taiwan is trying to goad more chinese citizens over from China to join them.

the PRC sees it differently

Article 9: Any Chinese national who has settled abroad and who has been naturalized as a foreign national or has acquired foreign nationality of his own free will shall automatically lose Chinese nationality.

Besides the influential Fil-Chinese community of the Philippines bonding with Taiwan might add further tensions with China, and we all know the economic consequences of such a move.

Legally, that does NOT apply to most Chinese-Filipinos. Most were natural-born Philippine nationals are did not choose it out of their own free will. Hahaha. LOL.

Actually, the Chinese-Filipino community has traditionally always sided with the Kuomintang / Republic of China, since Taiwan people are also largely Hokkienese.

Most of the Chinese textbooks we use in Chinese schools are sponsored and published by the Overseas Compatriot Affairs Commission (OCAC) of the Ministry of Education of Republic of China (Taiwan) and printed in Taiwan (R.O.C.). It's only recently that many Chinese schools started using textbooks from China Mainland / Singapore to include Pinyin and Simplified Chinese. But before 2006, most textbooks were from Taiwan.

[Leox]

Of course, no citizens have the right to break laws. But if you feel that you are a nation-group that should not be bound to the laws of the land made by the majority (who are ethnically different from you and may have different customs and traditions), then that's a different matter. For the Bangsamoro for example, their actions (e.g., hostaging, killing, raping) are wrong, but their ideology and aim is justifiable in their own point of view.

I agree "in their point of view" however laws just don't change to cater to individual perspectives unless its done properly through reforms and the government still has the authority to put down rebellions to restore order.

Doing pretty well in what? Economy? Yes, but what is doing good in economy if your children get kidnapped all of the time or your relative gets killed because of a robbery? It would not be a fruitless conflict. It would be the dawn of an era of a shortchanged ethnic minority who are well-off and well-educated.

Again you make it as if we're the only ones suffering I'm starting to wonder if you even live here anymore. Granted usually the wealthy Fil-Chi get targeted by kidnappers but compared to everyone else we're not as often the target of street shootings, muggings, rape or other more common crimes that are even more rampant. We're not the only abused minority, if anything we are among the much larger abused majority us Fil-Chi along with a most of the Filipinos, the only ones really protected are the "special" minority friends and relatives of the corrupt and influential.

Of course all these would NOT be necessary if the government really showed goodwill in extending their hand toward the Chinese-Filipinos, such as by reserving ONE seat in the Senate to represent the Chinese-Filipino group (they should also do the same to the Bangsamoro and Igorots) ,declaration of Chinese as a constitutional language (as what Spanish and Arabic are now).

We're all supposed to be represented as Filipino citizens not segregated into groups, also you previously asked me to confirm that even among Fil-Chi there is difficulty with the Chinese language which I did confirm because it is true, so how can you now expect it to be declared a constitutional language when even the minority that speaks it can barely read and write it, of course that doesn't make sense. Here's the language most of us are fluent in English.

Look at underdeveloped Mindanao versus overdeveloped environs of Central Luzon. Hmmmm. Now you still wonder why the Moros there are fuming?!?!?!

They can fume, they can leave, they can seek reforms and rally but once they pick up a gun they're fair game to be shot. Only idiots think they can get more development by turning the area into a warzone, even us Fil-Chi don't even want to do business in Mindanao anymore because if it. I personally know of someone who just pulled out of there late last year because of the violence, they'll be setting up shop here in Luzon, no surprise why its more developed here.

Oh, but government's protection falls short of protecting its citizens, especially those of Chinese heritage.

Our government fails in protecting ALL of its citizens regardless of ethnicity and yet you focus excessively on the Fil-Chi as victims this is where your racial bias becomes evident.

Actually, in any conflict between China and the Philippines, you should SIDE with the CORRECT COUNTRY, and now just stay neutral.

For example, in the Spratlys conflict, China has occupied the islands since 110 AD and here comes newcomer Philippines, toting its flag over one of the islands on 1956 AD. Of course, China has the most correct view. Even American authors who analyzed the problem were in a way forced to admit that really, China is the only country who have the rights to own the Spratlys (Nanshas).

Ancient maps and long gone historic people called dibs? Oh please, but I believe we have already discussed this on the other thread, its off topic here we can continue this point back there if you want.

You yourself are already a de facto dual citizen, as are all Chinese-Filipinos. As I've said, all Chinese-Filipinos are technically Republic of China citizens and are entitled to a R.O.C. passport and residency rights should they choose to. (Right to Return Law)

Also, as a sidenote, Philippine citizens (like Latin Americans) need only two years of residency in Spain to gain Spanish-European citizenship. All other nationals need five years. This is on the premise that "all Filipinos are descendants of Spaniards and are blood brothers to the Spanish" (Right to Return Law).

Chinese citizenship ROC is not recognized by mainland China, and most UN nations support the one China policy. Also Taiwan citizenship is misleading, we may be able to get a passport but we can't vote on just that, so we aren't really represented in their parliament as you had previously claimed. In fact most of what you post regarding representation seems to be in the context of race rather than governance.

Legally, that does NOT apply to most Chinese-Filipinos. Most were natural-born Philippine nationals are did not choose it out of their own free will. Hahaha. LOL.

So I take it you either don't like being a Philippine citizen or had already opted to change your citizenship by now?

Actually, the Chinese-Filipino community has traditionally always sided with the Kuomintang / Republic of China, since Taiwan people are also largely Hokkienese.

Actually I still live here around the Hokkienese and most of the people I know support the one China policy and the reunification of Taiwan with China, I also know for a fact that a lot of the Fil-Chi community invest a lot in mainland China, others even supporting some schools over there with contributions.

This post has been edited by Leox: Jan 19 2012, 04:14 AM