What is real Islam? Options

[DEL]

What is real Islam?

a good question.

There are hundreds of different groups in Islam, which all believe different things. They believe the others are wrong and only their Islam is the right one and only their Islam will be rewarded by Allah.

Outsiders and some Muslims say Islam is intolerant and violent, out to kill all non-muslims. Other Outsiders and most Muslims say that Islam is peaceful and tolerant, that can live together with anyone and Alla will decide later on.

So is the real Islam intolerant and violent or is the real Islam peaceful and tolerant?

The Quran

Who can be sure? The Quran of today has verses that tells you to be tolerant and peaceful. But there are also verses in the hadiths that tell you to kill with the sword. Some people say that all peaceful verses are abbrogated by the verse of the sword, that annulates all peaceful verses and gives the right to Islam to dominate others by violence. Yet the Quran itself tells you to watch out for false fabrications, that will try to contradict god's words.

So, which verses should you listen too? The verse that abbrogates earlier peaceful verses and gives way to violent ones? Or the peaceful verses and the verses that warns you for false abbrogations?

Also, the bonus question for this one What is the use of a religion that strives for peace and tolerance for a nation back in the old days? Is it useful? And if not, could they perhaps change it?

The same god or not?

Muslims will tell you that Allah is the same god as the god of the bible and the torah. The abrahamic god. Some scientists will tell you that it is false and that Allah is actually the moon good, another god. Yet Muslims still believe they share the same god as the Jews and the Christians.

So, doesn't it make the fact that Muslims just simply ''believe'' it is the same god, the same god for them?. Christians, Jews, scientists can rationalize all they want and tell it isn't. But Muslims will allways believe that they share the same god with Christians and Jews.

jihad and martyrdom

What is Jihad? It is arabic for struggle.

definition from the dictionary:
~struggle, to proceed with difficulty or with great effort <struggled through the high grass> <struggling to make a living>

definition from todays Western media:
~jihad, holy war. Use violence for god

What is Martyrdom:
~martyrdom, the suffering of death on account of adherence to a cause and especially to one's religious faith. <Jesus and his apostles were martyrs, because they suffered and endured pain for their god/believes.

definition from todays Western media:
~Martyrdom, A suicidal terrorist, which will try to damage/kill everyone who opposes his believes. <that suicidal terrorist thought he was a martyr and that he will be rewarded by god, even though his own god told him not to use violence and leave everything to god himself>

Which definition is the right one? What the dictionary says or the meaning what todays media gave it?

ask yourself

Ask yourself, can you tell what real Islam is? Can you say this is what Islam teaches you, without ever been to a mosque? Without ever talking to a Muslim? Without the skill to read Arabic? Without ever experiencing and learning all the ways of the different groups in Islam itself? Can you speak for Islam, while you don't even follow it?

No, you can't! There are too many variations in Islam and there is no clear way. There are verses in one holy chapter of the Quran and pages later there are verses that contradict it. One Islamic nation hates the other Islamic nation. One Tribe hates the other tribe. Why do most Arabic countries hate Saudies?

Muslims are in a jihad. They struggle. They have to find out themselves what is real Islam. Is it tolerant or peaceful, like the Quran (the book of god) says? Or is it violent and intolerant, like the hadiths say (the books of people who say they repeat the words of the human prophet, muhammed)? Muslims have to choose and luckily mostly have chosen for the peaceful way. But all these verses, can be changed by meaning or can be taken out of context, to ignore the real meaning of it.

So how can someone say they know real Islam, while most muslims don't agree with them? How can someone simplify a religion which has diversity in it and say they all do '''blablabla''? How can you talk so simply about someone else religion, say they don't hate the followers, but attack their religon, their way of life? Ignorance and racism.

It is up to every individual to tell what is real Islam for themselves!



This post has been edited by DEL: Feb 8 2012, 04:36 PM

[avisitor]

Islam is made up of its people, its followers ... so one can't judge Islam by only looking at one small group
That would be narrow minded and provide a false idea of the religion as a whole.

DEL, thank you for your post.

[chutzpah]

Dear Readers,

What real is Islam? Shouldn't that be what is the true Islam? Or what is Islam?

Islam is Islam, and there is no anyother type, form or variation on this religion of 'peace'

What is Islam? : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyYoAoHVOFQ

Well, the Indon that started this thread obviously doesn't have the slightest clue judging from his infantile and very confused post. But we know this all along! Just read his pathetic exchanges with the venerable elleXO on Islam here: http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=269868

One thing is crystal clear though, he is an Islamist apologist but knows absolutely zilch about Islam. His post says that much! Another is that all Muslims regardless of race, culture and back ground only believe in the ultimate authority of the Quran, the Hadith and the Surah! They must not and can not believe otherwise or 'different things' as stated unless they crave to be beheaded!

The 2nd reply #2 is no better. Because no one here least of all elleXO and I ever look at one small group. In fact we look the basic teaching of Islam that is based solely on the Quran, Hadith and the Surah. There is no any other way! We also look at what is done in the name of Islam across cultures and races. Another word, we post factual events that take place in ALL Islamic countries.

Which brings me to the latest sorry, no, terrible terrible turn of event, that of Hamza Kashgari, a young Saudi, who tried to escape to New Zealand, only to be caught in Malaysia and had been deported back to Saudi Arabia by Islamic Malaysia. He will certainly faces execution. Thousands of Muslims including head of states, Mullahs and Imams have called for his death. All because he dared to tweet about his confusion on his religion of 'peace'. He stated in his tweet that sometimes he loved and also hated his 'holy' prophet, he admitted being confused. For this he will be sentenced to death, unless Allah works miracle to save him. Yes what is Islam? Really???

Malaysia deports Saudi journalist accused of insulting prophet

Hamza Kashgari fled to Malaysia after calls for death penalty in response to Twitter comment about Muhammad

Kate Hodal in Bangkok
The Guardian, Monday 13 February 2012 Article history

Malaysia has deported a Saudi journalist accused of insulting the prophet Muhammad on Twitter, despite claims by rights groups that he could face the death penalty in Saudi Arabia.

Hamza Kashgari, 23, a newspaper columnist, tweeted doubts about Muhammad on the prophet's birthday last weekend. After death threats, he fled to Malaysia on Tuesday and was detained at Kuala Lumpur airport while trying to leave on Thursday. Malaysian police said Kashgari was handed over to Saudi officials and flown back on Sunday morning, with flight arrangements handled by the Saudi authorities.

Malaysia and Saudi Arabia do not share a formal extradition treaty, but do have close ties as fellow Muslim countries. The Malaysian interior minister, Hishammuddin Hussein, said in a statement that Kashgari's deportation was due to a common agreement.

"Malaysia had a long-standing arrangement by which individuals wanted by one country are extradited when detained by the other, and [Kashgari] will be repatriated under this agreement," the statement read. "The nature of the charges against the individual in this case are a matter for the Saudi Arabian authorities."

Kashgari had tweeted about Muhammad last week: "I have loved things about you and I have hated things about you, and there is a lot I don't understand about you. I will not pray for you." He deleted the tweet and apologised, but it attracted more than 30,000 responses, including death threats that spread from Twitter to YouTube and Facebook. Saudi clerics called him an apostate, and a Facebook page demanded his execution. Apostasy, abandonment or renunciation of faith, is a crime punishable by death in Saudi Arabia.

"Saudi clerics have already made up their mind that Kashgari is an apostate who must face punishment," said Christoph Wilcke, senior Middle East researcher at Human Rights Watch. "The Malaysian government should not be complicit in sealing Kashgari's fate by sending him back."

A lawyer for Kashgari called the deportation unlawful and said his counsel had not been informed that he was to be sent back to Saudi Arabia.

Phil Robertson of Human Rights Watch said Malaysia's actions set an all new low. "If Kashgari faces execution back in Saudi Arabia, the Malaysian government will have blood on its hands. The Malaysian government engaged in the most crass form of bait and switch, secretly sending Kashgari back, claiming the return is based on a long-standing understanding between Malaysia and Saudi Arabia, despite the fact that there is no bilateral extradition treaty between the two. When seeking a seat on the UN human rights council, the Malaysian government pledged it would abide by international human rights treaties, but from the day they took their seat they have walked away from that pledge."

A lawyer for Kashgari said that he had obtained a court order preventing his client's deportation but had been stopped by authorities from serving it.

Fadiah Nadwa Fikri told the Malaysian Star: "When we tried to serve the order at the Kuala Lumpur international airport, an immigration officer there confirmed Kashgari had been deported. This is in contempt of court and a violation of human rights." He added that Kashgari had been denied access to his lawyers since his arrest on Thursday.

Kashgari said in an interview that he was a "scapegoat for a larger conflict" over his comments, Reuters reported. Amnesty International labelled Kashgari a prisoner of conscience and called for his release.

Two weeks ago Saudi Arabia's Grand Mufti Abdul Aziz al-Sheikh called on Muslims to avoid Twitter as it "invited [people] to throw charges between them, and to lie in a manner that brings fame to some", the Jerusalem Post reported.

Saudi Arabia has the third highest number of Twitter users in the Arab region, according to a social media report by the Dubai School of Government. However, those users comprise 0.5% of the nation's overall population of 27 million.

In January, California-based Twitter said it would censor tweets in certain countries, fuelling debate over freedom of speech on the internet. Thailand, where strict censorship rules already apply, was the first nation to publicly approve of Twitter's decision. In Malaysia, police have used Twitter and other social media to try to warn activists against rallying in support of the opposition leader Anwar Ibrahim. In Indonesia, a government minister announced last week that people tweeting in violation of local law – relating to pornography, gambling, threats, fraud and blasphemy – could face seven to 12 years in jail, the Jakarta Globe reported.

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/1...rnalist-prophet

What is Islam? View this and draw your own conclusion. This is televised by an Islamic TV no less!
http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3307.htm

[chutzpah]

Is this Islam? Or it is just a handful of fanatics counterfeiting the teaching of the religion of 'peace' ? You be the judge! Raymond Ibrahim has been documenting what everyone is trying to ignore each month. You can study his monthly report going as far back as July 2011 in the link provided below. You can click on the many links within the article that will take you to more detail descriptions and reports on certain issues. Most interestingly is the list of countries where non Muslims have been under constant threat and killed.

SOURCE: http://www.raymondibrahim.com/11152/muslim...ns-january-2012

Muslim Persecution of Christians: January 2012
'Good Muslims Cannot Convert to Christianity'

by Raymond Ibrahim
Stonegate Institute
February 9, 2012

- She was flogged -- given 40 lashes as hundreds of Muslim spectators jeered -- for embracing a "foreign religion."

- The happy cheers of Christian children singing carols "became terrified whimpers" when four Muslims, one of them with an axe, barged into the church, slapped the children, wrecked the furniture, and kicked the altar -- for "disturbing their prayers."

The beginning of the New Year saw only an increase in the oppression of Christians under Islam, from Nigeria, where an all-out jihad has been declared in an effort to eradicate the Muslim north of all Christians, to Europe, where Muslim converts to Christianity are still hounded and attacked as apostates. According to the Chairman of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, "The flight of Christians out of the region is unprecedented and it's increasing year by year"; in our life time alone, he predicts "Christians might disappear altogether from Iraq, Afghanistan, and Egypt."

An international report found that Muslim nations make up nine out of the top ten countries where Christians face the "most severe" persecution. In response to these findings, a Vatican spokesman said that "Among the most serious concerns, the increase in Islamic extremism merits special attention. Persons and organizations dedicated to extremist Islamic ideology perpetrate terrible acts of violence in many places throughout the world: the Boko Haram sect in Nigeria is but one example. Then there is the climate of insecurity that unfortunately in some countries accompanies the so-called "Arab spring"—a climate that drives many Christians to flee and even to emigrate."

Categorized by theme, January's batch of Muslim persecution of Christians around the world includes (but is not limited to) the following accounts, listed in alphabetical order by country, not severity of anecdote.

APOSTASY

Iran: A Christian convert who was arrested in her home has been sentenced to two years in prison. Previously she endured five months of uncertainty detained in the notorious Evin prison, where the government hoped she would come to her senses and renounce Christianity. She was convicted of "broad anti-Islamic propaganda, deceiving citizens by formation of what is called a house church, insulting sacred figures and action against national security." Likewise, Iranian Pastor Yousef Nadarkhani continues to suffer in prison. Most recently, he rejected an offer to be released if he publicly acknowledged Islam's prophet Muhammad as "a messenger sent by God," which would amount to rejecting Christianity, as Muhammad/Koran reject it.

Kenya: Muslim apostates seeking refuge in Kenya are being tracked and attacked by Muslims from their countries of origin: An Ethiopian who, upon converting to Christianity, was shot by his father, kidnapped and almost killed, is now receiving threatening text messages. Likewise, a Ugandan convert to Christianity is in hiding, his movements severely restricted since "the Muslims are looking to kill me. I need protection and help."

Kuwait: A royal prince who openly declared that he has converted to Christianity, confirmed the reality that he now might be targeted for killing as an apostate.

Norway: While out for a walk, two Iranian converts to Christianity were stabbed with knives by masked men shouting "infidels!" One of the men stabbed had converted in Iran, was threatened there, and immigrated to Norway, thinking he could escape persecution there.

Somalia: A female convert to Christianity was paraded before a cheering crowd and publicly flogged as punishment for embracing a "foreign religion." Imprisoned since November, "the public whipping was meant to mark her release." She received 40 lashes as hundreds of Muslim spectators jeered. An eyewitness said: "I saw her faint. I thought she had died, but soon she regained consciousness and her family took her away." Likewise, "Somali Islamists arrested a Muslim father after two of his children converted to Christianity" and fled. He is accused of "failing to raise his sons as good Muslims, because "good Muslims cannot convert to Christianity."

Zanzibar: After being robbed, a Muslim convert to Christianity called police to his house; they discovered a Bible during their inspection. The course of inquiry immediately changed from searching for the thieves to asking why he "was practicing a forbidden faith." He was imprisoned for eight months without trial, and, since being released, has been rejected by his family and is now homeless and diseased.

CHURCH ATTACKS

Azerbaijan: A pastor has been threatened with criminal proceedings following a raid on his church during Sunday service. Earlier, he was told that "a criminal case had been launched over religious literature arousing incitement over other faiths," and was pressured by authorities to leave the area, which he did, traveling great distances each week to lead church services.

Egypt: Before a bishop was going to inaugurate the incomplete Abu Makka church and celebrate the Epiphany mass, a large number of Salafis and Muslim Brotherhood members entered the building, asserting that the church had no license and so no one should pray in it. One Muslim remarked that the building would be suitable for a mosque and a hospital.

Indonesia: A sticker on the back of the car of a member of the beleaguered Yasmin church saying "We need a friendly Islam, not an angry Islam," distributed by the family of the late Muslim president, prompted another Islamic attack on the church: scores of Muslims "terrorized the congregation and attacked several church members." Since 2008, the congregation has been forced to hold Sunday services on the sidewalk outside the church and then later in the home of parishioners. Not satisfied, hundreds of Muslims later searched and found the private home where members were congregating and holding service and prevented them from worshiping there as well: "It crosses the line now. The protesters now come to the residential area, which is not a public place." A new report notes that anti-Christian attacks have nearly doubled in the last year.

Nigeria: Soon after jihadis issued an ultimatum giving Christians three days to evacuate the region or die, armed Muslims stormed a church and "opened fire on worshippers as their eyes were closed in prayer," killing six, including the pastor's wife. Then, as friends and relatives gathered to mourn the deaths of those slain, "Allahu Akbar" screaming Muslims appeared and opened fire again, killing another 20 Christians. Several other churches were bombed, and seven more killed.

Pakistan: Enraged by the voices of children singing carols at a nearby church, Muslims praying in a mosque decided to silence them—including with an axe: "The children were preparing for mass to be celebrated the next day which was a Sunday. The loud cheers became terrified whimpers when suddenly four men, one of them with an axe, barged into the church. The men slapped the children, wrecked the furniture, smashed the microphone on to the floor and kicked the altar. "You are disturbing our prayers. We can't pray properly. How dare you use the mike and speakers?" (Islam forbids Christians from celebrating loudly in church, banning bells, microphones, etc.) Also, a center owned by the Catholic church for 125 years, and used for "charitable purposes"—it housed a home for the elderly, a girls' school, a convent and chapel for prayer—was demolished, after it was discovered that its land is worth much money; in the process, demolition workers destroyed Bibles, crosses, and a statue of Our Lady.

Zanzibar: Muslims destroyed two churches: one was torched, while the other demolished—all to yells of "Allahu Akbar."

DHIMMITUDE

[General Abuse, Debasement, and Suppression of non-Muslim "Second-Class Citizens"]

Denmark: In Muslim majority Odense, an Iranian Christian family had two cars consecutively vandalized—windows smashed, seats cut up, and set ablaze—because the cars had crucifixes hanging in them; the family has since relocated to an undisclosed location. Likewise, "Church Ministry" will change its name to "Ministry of Philosophy of Life" to accommodate Muslims.

Egypt: In the latest round of collective punishment, a mob of over 3000 Muslims attacked Christians in a village because of a rumor that a Coptic man had intimate photos of a Muslim woman on his phone (denied by the man). Coptic homes and shops were looted before being set ablaze. Three were injured, while "terrorized" women and children who lost their homes stood in the streets with no place to go. As usual, it took the army an hour to drive 2 kilometers to the village and none of the perpetrators were arrested.

Nigeria: Boko Haram Muslims set ablaze a Christian missionary home. Occupants of the home, mostly orphans and the less-privileged, were rendered homeless as a result. Meanwhile, a top officer allowed the mastermind behind the Christmas Day church bombings to escape, evincing how well entrenched Islamists are in government.

Pakistan: A judge has denied bail to the latest Christian charged with desecrating the Koran, under Pakistan's blasphemy laws, despite the lack of evidence against him: according to Sharia, the word of a Christian is half that of his Muslim accuser (his landlord).

Saudi Arabia: Officials strip-searched 29 Christian women and assaulted six Christian men after arresting them for holding a prayer meeting at a private home. Imprisoned last month without trial, they have not been told when or if they will be released. Authorities conducted the strip searches of the women, who insisted they had committed no crime, in unsanitary conditions. As a result, some of the women have been injured and are suffering illnesses, but authorities have provided no medical treatment.

Sudan: Authorities threatened to arrest church leaders if they engage in "evangelistic activities" and fail to comply with an order for churches to provide names and identifications: "The order was aimed at oppressing Christians amid growing hostilities toward Christianity… Sudanese law prohibits missionaries from evangelizing, and converting from Islam to another religion is punishable by imprisonment or death in Sudan, though previously such laws were not strictly enforced." Accordingly, days and weeks later, two evangelists were arrested on spurious charges and beat by police.

Turkey: A Christian asylum seeker who fled from Iran because of his faith "was brutally assaulted by his Turkish employer with hot water and his body was severely burned," due to "the extreme religious views" of his Muslim employer, who "told him he had no rights and that he would not pay him any money," after the Christian asked for his agreed wages. He "is just one example of hundreds of Iranian Christian asylum seekers who are living in such situations in Turkey."

ABDUCTION, RANSOM, MURDER

Egypt: The abduction of a 16-year old Christian girl, who disappeared over a month ago, has become a "tug of war between the Christian family and Muslim lawyers." The court sided with the Islamists, ordering the girl to be held in a state-owned care home till she reaches 18—the legal age of conversion—instead of returning her to her family. Coptic activists argue that the decision "encourages Islamists to continue unabated the abduction of Christian minors for conversion to Islam."

Pakistan: A Christian girl who was abducted in 2001 when she was 15 and forced to marry a Muslim, returned to her Catholic family after 10 years. Her case is not an isolated case: "there are at least 700 cases a year of Christian girls kidnapped and forced to marry Muslims. Likewise, "within the past three months, nine women have been abducted and forcibly converted to Islam."

Sudan: After a large truck smashed through the gates of a Catholic Church compound, Muslims affiliated with Sudan's Islamic government kidnapped two Catholic priests and "severely beat" them and looted their living quarters, stealing two vehicles, two laptops and a safe. Later, the kidnappers forced the priests to call their bishop with a ransom demand of 500,000 Sudanese pounds (US$185,530).

Switzerland: A Muslim man hacked his daughter to death for dating a Christian: were they dating in a Muslim-dominated country, the Christian, as so often happens, would have likely received similar treatment.

Syria: The Christian community in Syria has been hit by a series of kidnappings and brutal murders; 100 Christians were killed since the anti-government unrest began; "children were being especially targeted by the kidnappers, who, if they do not receive the ransom demanded, kill the victim, including some who are "cut into pieces and thrown in a river." These latest reports are reminiscent of the anti-Christian attacks that have become commonplace in Iraq for a decade.

Tajikistan: A young man dressed as Father Frost—the Russian equivalent of Father Christmas—was stabbed to death while visiting relatives and bringing gifts. The Muslim mob beating and stabbing him screamed "you infidel!" leading police to cite "religious hatred" as motivation.

About this Series

Because the persecution of Christians in the Islamic world is on its way to reaching epidemic proportions, "Muslim Persecution of Christians" was developed to collate some—by no means all—of the instances of Muslim persecution of Christians that surface each month. It serves two purposes:

1. Intrinsically, to document that which the mainstream media does not: the habitual, if not chronic, Muslim persecution of Christians.
2. Instrumentally, to show that such persecution is not "random," but systematic and interrelated—that it is rooted in a worldview inspired by Sharia.

Accordingly, whatever the anecdote of persecution, it typically fits under a specific theme, including hatred for churches and other Christian symbols; sexual abuse of Christian women; forced conversions to Islam; apostasy and blasphemy laws; theft and plunder in lieu of jizya (tribute); overall expectations for Christians to behave like cowed "dhimmis" (second-class citizens); and simple violence and murder. Oftentimes it is a combination thereof.

Because these accounts of persecution span different ethnicities, languages, and locales—from Morocco in the west, to India in the east, and throughout the West, wherever there are Muslims—it should be clear that one thing alone binds them: Islam—whether the strict application of Islamic Sharia law, or the supremacist culture born of it.

[tangawizi]

If u feel strongly about the religious strife in these countries, why don't you look at how to get into inter-faith dialogue, instead of inter-faith diatribes, Chutzpah? Or you just wanna be trouble maker and stir up anti-islam feelings and leave it up to the reader to take whatever actions into their own hands?

Not hating on you here, just wanting a dialogue...

[chutzpah]

You are not capable of having a dialogue unless it is agreeable to your way of thinking. We gone through it ad nauseum. Why don't you stop pestering us and post something truthful for a change complete with evidence to back your claim?

[tangawizi]

I am more than capable of hearing you out on the conflicts in the muslim world except you don't know anything about inter-faith dialogue because of your constant rants against those of us who disagree with you.

You are only interested in smearing Islam and their Prophet. And those of us like Del and AV who disagrees with you.

Is there any change of direction in your agenda other than to smear Islam? Are you interested in inter-faith dialogue and reconciliation efforts?

What's your little contribution to peace around you? Or are you only capable of posting Christian victimization news and stirring up anger and hatred against Islam and its followers?

[avisitor]

If you noticed ... Chutzpah and elleXO have gone from professing their hatred for the Islamic religion to hatred for Muslims and back it up with their quotes from the Koran (All of which I believe that they believe with all their heart ... which makes it all the more sad) to insulting anyone who disagrees with them. Either they make themselves out to be ten times the men we are or they call us trolls or say stuff like you are not capable of a dialogue ... when in truth, they have only proved that they are the ones with closed minds.
While the Koran is filled with many words, they focus on the negative. Where is that Christian love???

This post has been edited by avisitor: Feb 17 2012, 12:25 AM