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What is Pangasinense?
nenabunena
post Feb 11 2012, 05:16 PM
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According to this, Pangasinense isn't related to any other Filipino languages directly, though it is close to Ibaloi? If Ibalois came from Pangasinan, shouldn't they both belong to the same branch?

Also, what's with all the spam here, where are the mods?

Inquirer
QUOTE
Why itís difficult to learn Pangasinan

By Gabriel Cardinoza
Philippine Daily Inquirer
First Posted 01:10:00 06/17/2009

Filed Under: Language, history, Culture (general), Education

EVER wondered why it's difficult to learn the Pangasinan language if you were not born in a Pangasinan-speaking community? It?s because in the family tree of Philippine languages, Pangasinan has no relative.

Pangasinan is one of the 13 indigenous languages in the country with at least a million native speakers. These include Tagalog, Cebuano, Ilokano, Hiligaynon, Waray-Waray, Kapampangan, Bikol, Albay Bikol, Maranao, Maguindanao, Kinaray-a and Tausug.

?Linguists don?t really know where to put the Pangasinan language, on which branch [in the family tree],? said Edgardo Quiros, a division chief at the National Library who has been doing research on the Pangasinan language for his doctoral dissertation at the University of the Philippines.

He said that even the Sentro ng Wikang Pambansa had aired this concern when he consulted the office.

Quiros, a Pangasinense, said the theory was that if two languages belong to the same family tree and a person was born with the first one, it will be easier for him or her to learn the language in the same branch.

?For example, Ilocano is your first language and you try to learn Pangasinan. It will take you longer to learn Pangasinan than if you were born in a Pangasinan-speaking environment,? he said.

?But if you were born an Ilocano and you try to learn Tagalog, it will be a lot easier for you to learn it than Pangasinan.?

Linguists baffled

Why the Pangasinan language is the way it is today continues to baffle linguists, Quiros said.

?Until now, there are no proofs or documents that could tell why the Pangasinan language is the way it is today although we have archeological evidence and some cultural distinctions that could point to something,? he said.

For example, he said, the Chinese have been trading in Pangasinan even before the Spaniards came. And there are families in Pangasinan, he said, that have in their possession artifacts proving that their families had been in Pangasinan when it was trading with China in the pre-Hispanic era.

?But there has been no formal studies on Pangasinan language,? he said.

Asked if he was aware that in the history of Dagupan City, the early settlers were believed to have come from the Flores Islands in Indonesia, where the language was said to be similar, Quiros said it was possible.

?But you can never tell. That community already existed like us then. So, maybe, we should confirm the similarity of our languages,? he said.

Quiros also said the closest language to Pangasinan was Ibaloi.

?During one of my field research activities in the barrios and sitios along the Agno River, in the upstream of the San Roque Dam, we validated the idea that the Ibaloi were actually from Pangasinan,? he said.

He said people he interviewed had told him that their ancestors were located in Pangasinan. ?So, Ibaloi and Pangasinan are the same because they came from Pangasinan. There?s no debate about it,? he said.

Five dialects

So far, Quiros said, the only definite about Pangasinan language was that it has five dialects.

?It?s easy to distinguish, for example, the Pangasinan that is spoken in the central part of the province. It?s very distinct,? he said.

?However, if you talk about Pangasinan spoken somewhere in the areas of Camiling [Tarlac] and Mangatarem towns, and compare it to the Pangasinan in the coastal areas, such as Dagupan, then compare it to those spoken in places like San Carlos City, you?ll easily spot the difference,? Quiros said.

He said Pangasinenses in central Pangasinan have more detailed words to describe specific phenomena.

?One good example is the rain. Rain is associated with adjectives, like maksil [strong] or makapuy [weak] in other places. But in central Pangasinan, there are many terms for rain. It can be maya-maya [drizzle], tayaketek [light rain] or ambusabos [heavy rain],? Quiros said.

Fully developed

This shows, he said, that in central Pangasinan, the language has been fully developed because these were also the oldest places in the province.

He said anthropologist and UP professor Jerome Bailen, a Pangasinense, had proposed to conduct diggings around Mangabul Lake in Bayambang town to find archaeological evidence to prove that Pangasinan already existed even before the Spanish period, but he was not able to get funding.

?Mangabul is a very good place to go. If there?s a big lake or there?s a big river, the communities during the pre-Hispanic period were there. So, it?s there where you can find a good study of the language,? Quiros said.

He said he pursued the study of Pangasinan language ?more on of interest rather than a necessity.?

?Language is an accumulation of experience of a society. Language, in itself, is history. And I find it as a sense of fulfillment to know more about a culture of a place where I am supposed to come from and yet I know little about,? he said.
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trismegistos
post Feb 12 2012, 09:09 PM
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QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 11 2012, 05:16 PM) *
According to this, Pangasinense isn't related to any other Filipino languages directly, though it is close to Ibaloi? If Ibalois came from Pangasinan, shouldn't they both belong to the same branch?

Also, what's with all the spam here, where are the mods?

Inquirer

I also noticed the big differences almost unintelligible among Ilocano, Pangasinense and Kapampangan. All three grouped as the Northern Philippine languages as to distinguish to the Southern Languages like the Tagalogs and Bisayans.

Kapampangan belongs to Sambalic languages and is transitional between Aeta language and the Sinaunang Tagalog, Remontados. Bolinao language is also Sambalic and is transitional between Botolan or Sambalic Aeta and Pangasinense. Sinaunang Tagalog or Remontados is transitional between Kapampangan and Tagalog.

It looks like the greatest bifurcation occurs in Central Luzon with Austronesian Aeta Sambalic as the most archaic and ancestral. Sambalic languages is also being spoken to as far as Puerto Princesa in Palawan.

Out of Taiwan? It looks like Out of Luzon.

The Northern Languages are so unintelligible among each other that you can group them as separatem major language gruoping and the languages as sole representatives of their respective separate language group. Philippine languages grouping can rival as the most diverse which are often designated to the Formosan language grouping by linguists like Bellwood and Blust. Diversity usually denotes the site of bifurcations and thus the Origin or the original Proto or mother language.

Just an amateurish observation since I have no linguistic studies background.
QUOTE
Sambal: Hiyay kay tanda mamanomtom ha pinag'ibatan, kay 'ya maka'lato ha ampako'tawan.”
Bolinao: “Si [tawon] kai magtanda’ lumingap sa ibwatan [na], kai ya mirate’ sa keen [na].”
Botolan: “Hay ahe nin nanlek ha pinag-ibatan, ay ahe makarateng ha lalakwen.”
Tagalog: “Ang hindi marunong lumingon sa pinanggalingan ay hindi makararating sa paroroonan.”

See that even among Sambalic languages, they are almost unintelligible among each other. While I noticed the similarities and mutual intelligibility between Visayan languages.

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Feb 12 2012, 09:41 PM
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nenabunena
post Feb 14 2012, 11:59 AM
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QUOTE (trismegistos @ Feb 13 2012, 10:09 AM) *
I also noticed the big differences almost unintelligible among Ilocano, Pangasinense and Kapampangan. All three grouped as the Northern Philippine languages as to distinguish to the Southern Languages like the Tagalogs and Bisayans.

Kapampangan belongs to Sambalic languages and is transitional between Aeta language and the Sinaunang Tagalog, Remontados. Bolinao language is also Sambalic and is transitional between Botolan or Sambalic Aeta and Pangasinense. Sinaunang Tagalog or Remontados is transitional between Kapampangan and Tagalog.

It looks like the greatest bifurcation occurs in Central Luzon with Austronesian Aeta Sambalic as the most archaic and ancestral. Sambalic languages is also being spoken to as far as Puerto Princesa in Palawan.

Out of Taiwan? It looks like Out of Luzon.

The Northern Languages are so unintelligible among each other that you can group them as separatem major language gruoping and the languages as sole representatives of their respective separate language group. Philippine languages grouping can rival as the most diverse which are often designated to the Formosan language grouping by linguists like Bellwood and Blust. Diversity usually denotes the site of bifurcations and thus the Origin or the original Proto or mother language.

Just an amateurish observation since I have no linguistic studies background.

See that even among Sambalic languages, they are almost unintelligible among each other. While I noticed the similarities and mutual intelligibility between Visayan languages.


It's unintelligible because they are languages, not dialects. Dialects refers to an accent/diction differences & a few differences in words perhaps, akin to english spoken in the U.S. compared to english spoken in the UK or in Australia. But Philippine languages are very close to each other, & even in your examples, I see many words I recognize in Tagalog. Not one of us here are linguists, more so Austronesian linguists, so it seems folly for me for us to conjecture & make up theories based on our own flawed assumptions on the diversity of languages. As much as there is criticism or dissension of the Out of Taiwan theory, linguistically, I believe Austronesian linguists are better equipped to determine which languages are older. Besides, as much as diversification indicates an ancient strata, it is not the only one. It would be prudent to take up all the factors involved & to remember to be humble (we Filipino value humility no?) because none of us here can boast to be experts over those professionals who are undoubtedly experts.

As for Sinaunang Tagalog, from what I have read, it's still up in the air if sinaunang tagalog really exists or are even Tagalogs. Also that the researcher merely called the language sinaunang tagalog for simplicity's sake I believe.

Tagarugs
QUOTE
The research area of Dar and Llamzon is home to three indigenous people groups- the Remontados (half-breeds) who speak Tagalog, and two Dumagat groups speaking their respective languages. The Dumagats call these languages Dumagat Kaliwa and Dumagat Kanan. Your Sinauna Tagarug is actually Dumagat Kaliwa. Linguists do not classify Kaliwa as Dumagat. But I have to respect local knowledge and indigenous label. I strongly suspect that Dumagat Kaliwa is a dying language. I often visit the area. Help me save the language and ethnicity of Kaliwa Dumagats.

By the way, it is not surprising to hear that there were people or language in the Remontado-Dumagat area called Sinaunang Tagalog, Taga-ilog, Tagaelog or Tagarug. The area is Kaliwa Watershed. It has many rivers and streams. River is "ilog" in Tagalog/Filipino. Stream is oftentimes called "ilog" also by native speakers of the national language. ("Sapa" is the correct term though.) Tagalog, Taga-ilog, Tagaelog or Tagarug simply means "people by the river".

Generally, Remontados are indigenous people who consider "Dumagat" as a deregatory term. So, they refuse to be called as such. Most of them descended from Dumagat-settler union. Remontados speak a Tagalog dialect not a distinct language.

Below are some Dumagat Kaliwa statements translated to Dumagat Kanan and English.

Kaliwa- Kanna ka pupure?
Kanan- Dino ka paago?
English- Where are you going?

Kaliwa- Baana ingaran mo?
Kanan- Ano ingalan mo?
English- What is your name?

Kaliwa- Rangbon e aram ko pambuhayed katutubo.
Kanan- Makmok nakaengtingasan ko buhay ne katutubo.
English- I know much of the ways of the native.

Kaliwa- Ladap ka eda kayime?
Kanan- Naketingaes ka man nunsurot me?
English- Do you understand our language?


QUOTE
willy agrimano said...

remontado agtas or people are mixture of ancient tagalog and dumaghet. the term tagarug is actually new term because the tendency of the tribe people there is to create new terminologies out of new words from outside their community.i talked to dumagat people and i learnrd that their language exist in many forms. the general are in two categories- the "mangnih or mangnah" and the "baybay"(sa baybay dagat na salita).other form is the newer one which is more tagalog/kapangpangan forms.(maybe due to the influence of the migrating people from pampangga and tagalog areas) .The real dumaghet has their own terminology for tagalog and according to them they called the tagalogs as " abyang"!i believe the dumagats are the early groups of pilipino in the areas of the sierra madre regions in the provinces of Rizal,Bulakan and Quezon.This are the samples of dumagat words or "e sorot pa dumaghet" 1. papalanu magpakaluto di ni bigyes de buloh?(papaano magluto/magsaing ng bigas sa buho? 2.) mapion kapen e agta ni dumaghet dehil te pakundeangan ide eyen tolad ni agta de kasidungan a lewet lewet de pagyedi ni kalekoan.( mabuti pa ang taong dumaghat dahil may pakundangan hindi tulad ng mga tao sa kapatagan na pauli ulit sa paggawa ng kalikoan.3. Mahalage e pakekepagkapuwe agta kesa pakekekoloy. (mahalaga ang pakikipagkapuwa tao kaysa pakikisama) 4.) inomeral e kamatoden ta katoweden ni makedepaT de ketam a bensa ngane masopel e makmuk a ore ni kamalotan ta kalekoan ni inuman a agta. (umiral ang katotohanan at katuwiran ng Panginoon upang masupil a maraming uri ng kasamaan at kalikuan ng sinumang tao.)5.) on tuneh a pelipeno de ketam a bensa ey on agta ni dumaghet de kabukodien ni Bukod ni ena(sierra madre). (Ang tunay na Pilipino sa ating bansa ay ang taong dumagat sa kabundukan ng sierra madre)


One thing is clear, they are not Sinaunang Tagalogs.

As for transitional languages from Aeta, it is my understanding that the Aetas speak an austronesian language because they abandoned their language for the sake of our's. This is similar to Melanesians abandoning their own native tongue for the sake of the Polynesian Austronesian languages I believe. So it's really quite impossible for a Philippine Austronesian language to be transitional from Aeta since an Aeta language is not Austronesian to begin with.

I hope you didn't find my post too harsh, I just hope that we can all be more logical in our assessments & own capabilities. I value the humility of Filipino culture because it encourages us to not speak out of turn unless we are aware of the subject at hand. Maybe because this is how I was raised & I sometimes get irked with Westerners when they speak of what they do not know too willingly. I hope I did not offend you Trismegistos.

BTW, I found this post on Pangasinense: Pangasinense Literary Works and Linguistics

QUOTE
The Pangasinan language is very closely related to the Ibaloi language spoken in the neighboring province of Benguet and Baguio City, located north of Pangasinan. The Pangasinan language is classified under the Pangasinic group of languages. The Pangasinic languages are:

Pangasinan
Ibaloi
Karao
I-wak
Kalanguya
Keley-I
Kallahan
Kayapa
Tinoc
The Pangasinic languages are spoken primarily in the provinces of Pangasinan and Benguet, and in some areas of the neighboring provinces of Zambales, Tarlac, Nueva Ecija, Nueva Vizcaya, and Ifugao.

Pangasinan is an agglutinative language.


It seems according to this there is a sub-branch of Pangasinic languages.

This post has been edited by nenabunena: Feb 14 2012, 01:56 PM
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trismegistos
post Feb 15 2012, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 14 2012, 11:59 AM) *
It's unintelligible because they are languages, not dialects. Dialects refers to an accent/diction differences & a few differences in words perhaps, akin to english spoken in the U.S. compared to english spoken in the UK or in Australia. But Philippine languages are very close to each other, & even in your examples, I see many words I recognize in Tagalog. Not one of us here are linguists, more so Austronesian linguists, so it seems folly for me for us to conjecture & make up theories based on our own flawed assumptions on the diversity of languages. As much as there is criticism or dissension of the Out of Taiwan theory, linguistically, I believe Austronesian linguists are better equipped to determine which languages are older. Besides, as much as diversification indicates an ancient strata, it is not the only one. It would be prudent to take up all the factors involved & to remember to be humble (we Filipino value humility no?) because none of us here can boast to be experts over those professionals who are undoubtedly experts.

There are various points of view and nobody carries the monopoly of truth. There are indivual truths and points of view as there are people. Everybody is free to form their own opinion, intelligent or not. Just like there are Orthodox and Mainstream sciences and there are alternatives. For eg there is the Orthodox Allopathic medicine that drugged people having chronic diseases into toxicity without any cure in sight. And there are Alternative Natural Medicine like Homeopathy, Naturopathy. Other offer chelation. American Medical Association funded by the Illuminati elites, oil barons and banksters like the Rothschilds and The Rockefellers is exactly organized to fight these much effective alternative choices in favor of Synthetic drugs coming from their Petrochemical products.

What is ORTHODOX, MAINSTREAM OR POPULAR doesn't necessarily mean it is right?

Theories are theories. Linguistics is not actually an exact science. And among liguists there are varrying opinions and differences. Exactly, there are other factors to determine which is which the more plausible theory to pinpoint the actual origin of Austronesians. I tend to go more with archaeological and genetic evidence.

Theories get debunked. And theories get rewritten. And many linguists are questioning the validity of the Out of Taiwan theory too. Solheim even proposed the area in Wallacea as the origin of Austronesian language, as the languages there are more older.

I created two threads, exactly debunking OUT of Taiwan theory...
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=223334
and
http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=257140


QUOTE
As for Sinaunang Tagalog, from what I have read, it's still up in the air if sinaunang tagalog really exists or are even Tagalogs. Also that the researcher merely called the language sinaunang tagalog for simplicity's sake I believe.

Tagarugs

One thing is clear, they are not Sinaunang Tagalogs.

As for transitional languages from Aeta, it is my understanding that the Aetas speak an austronesian language because they abandoned their language for the sake of our's. This is similar to Melanesians abandoning their own native tongue for the sake of the Polynesian Austronesian languages I believe. So it's really quite impossible for a Philippine Austronesian language to be transitional from Aeta since an Aeta language is not Austronesian to begin with.

I hope you didn't find my post too harsh, I just hope that we can all be more logical in our assessments & own capabilities. I value the humility of Filipino culture because it encourages us to not speak out of turn unless we are aware of the subject at hand. Maybe because this is how I was raised & I sometimes get irked with Westerners when they speak of what they do not know too willingly. I hope I did not offend you Trismegistos.

Aeta language is Austronesian belonging to Sambalic. Who to say the Aetas abandon their languages. These are just suppositions and assumptions. Maybe Aeta language got influences and modified through time from neighboring Austronesian languages which shared common ancestry linguistically from the Austric mother language. Their Austronesian neighbors shared with them a common genetic K* ancestry. And the Aetas have the K* in their genetic material. What is their evidence the Aetas abandoned their language. Do they have a time machine and went during the time of the Paleolithic Ice age.

Languages are born as diverging tribes separate, the TOWER OF BABEL paradigm. So there is no such thing as an admixture language such as Dumagat or Remontados only TRANSITIONAL LANGUAGES. Admixtures occur only as the world gets smaller unlike before the population where sparse with wide open spaces.

Remontados or Sinaunang Tagalog is transitional between the Aeta Sambalic languages(Northern) and Tagalog(Southern languages).

Genetically, the K*MNOPS Aetas carry the genetic material of our ancestors. Ancestral K being granddaddy haplotype of the majority of Eurasians and Americans, such as the Mongoloids, Caucasoids, Melanesians and Amerindians. Sundaland theory anyone?

And my point of view is borne out of collating other evidence, from the scientific to the metaphysical. Paul Kekai Manansala, an intuitive and a scholar, spoke of the Sambalic areas as THE AXIS MUNDI. Archaeoanthropolinguistgeneticists intuitives like Oppenheimer, Solheim believe in the Eden in the East and have lots of scientific evidence proving that and are not exactly in favor of OUT OF TAIWAN theory. Whether you believe my opinion or don't is your opinion that I have to respect. Again, nobody can claim the monopoly of truth and the absolute Truth is the domain of the perfected ascended beings and Divine Providence Herself/Himself.

Edit: Paul Kekai Manansala more than qualifies as a linguist with his scholarly linguistic and scientific works like these...

http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/lang.htm

Austronesian Navigation and Migration
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/austro.htm

Austric Influence in India
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/austric.htm

Austric relationship of Sumerian Language
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/sumer.htm

This post has been edited by trismegistos: Feb 16 2012, 10:31 PM
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nenabunena
post Feb 17 2012, 02:07 PM
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QUOTE (trismegistos @ Feb 16 2012, 08:53 AM) *
There are various points of view and nobody carries the monopoly of truth. There are indivual truths and points of view as there are people. Everybody is free to form their own opinion, intelligent or not. Just like there are Orthodox and Mainstream sciences and there are alternatives. For eg there is the Orthodox Allopathic medicine that drugged people having chronic diseases into toxicity without any cure in sight. And there are Alternative Natural Medicine like Homeopathy, Naturopathy. Other offer chelation. American Medical Association funded by the Illuminati elites, oil barons and banksters like the Rothschilds and The Rockefellers is exactly organized to fight these much effective alternative choices in favor of Synthetic drugs coming from their Petrochemical products.

What is ORTHODOX, MAINSTREAM OR POPULAR doesn't necessarily mean it is right?

Theories are theories. Linguistics is not actually an exact science. And among liguists there are varrying opinions and differences. Exactly, there are other factors to determine which is which the more plausible theory to pinpoint the actual origin of Austronesians. I tend to go more with archaeological and genetic evidence.

Theories get debunked. And theories get rewritten. And many linguists are questioning the validity of the Out of Taiwan theory too. Solheim even proposed the area in Wallacea as the origin of Austronesian language, as the languages there are more older.


That is true but that is not the point, the point is you have no standing or credibility in the scientific community to question or tackle the theories brought forward. The ones who are in such a position to do so have merit because they have earned it through serious study, in other words they have degrees. I think you may think too little of both archaeology & linguistics that you assume any person off the street with no college education, masteral degree, phd are equipped to challenge such theories. If you are serious with challenging these scholars who have studied for years on the subject at hand, then take your hypothesis off internet frums, get a degree in archaeology & linguistics & challenge them.

Everyone is free to make their own opinions, fabricated or not, but as people we need to be rational & take responsibility with intentional misinformation or misrepresentation of self & data.

Linguistics & archarology both belong to social sciences, they are not exact, therefore one should be all the more prudent, careful, exact & strict with their research & proclamations. That is the very point I am trying to make. We cannot afford to be careless in such a subject. Also, your presentations are not theories but mere hypothesis. A theory is dependent & subjected to scientific scrutiny & method. None of us is capable of subjecting such hypothesis to tests, these hypothesis are all interesting. But be logical & rationale, you need to test such ideas & see where & if they stand for them to hold any water or weight. I can make any proclamations like we are all aliens from the planet Marduk, but without a serious study & test imposed upon it, it is all empty conjecture out of people's imagination.

Now, you bring the topic back to Out of Taiwan theory which has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. Almost every thread here is devoted to posters/trolls/haters dedication to Filipino genes, yet no one cares to talk about Filipino culture, history, sociology, politics, etc. I have avoided every troll baited thread here, please don't relegate this thread into another Aeta/Korean/NE Asian thread. & this will be my last response to any post of yours unrelated to the discussion at hand.

QUOTE


Fine. SO you have to threads & many more here dedicated to your interest, why try to steer this thread into another one of those? We don't need every thread to be about genes of Filipinos. Let's have a few threads about our culture & history shall we?



QUOTE
Aeta language is Austronesian belonging to Sambalic. Who to say the Aetas abandon their languages. These are just suppositions and assumptions. Maybe Aeta language got influences and modified through time from neighboring Austronesian languages which shared common ancestry linguistically from the Austric mother language. Their Austronesian neighbors shared with them a common genetic K* ancestry. And the Aetas have the K* in their genetic material. What is their evidence the Aetas abandoned their language. Do they have a time machine and went during the time of the Paleolithic Ice age.


Maybe maybe maybe? Maybe all Filipino languages are in fact Romance languages or Sinitic? Come on. I think I will rely more on experts/professionals with years of serious study under their belts than some poster on an internet site. Please don't be offended, but remember 'humility is not only a virtue, it is rationale.' Please be rationale, why should one listen to a person just learning to count over a mathematician?

QUOTE
Languages are born as diverging tribes separate, the TOWER OF BABEL paradigm. So there is no such thing as an admixture language such as Dumagat or Remontados only TRANSITIONAL LANGUAGES. Admixtures occur only as the world gets smaller unlike before the population where sparse with wide open spaces.

Remontados or Sinaunang Tagalog is transitional between the Aeta Sambalic languages(Northern) and Tagalog(Southern languages).

Genetically, the K*MNOPS Aetas carry the genetic material of our ancestors. Ancestral K being granddaddy haplotype of the majority of Eurasians and Americans, such as the Mongoloids, Caucasoids, Melanesians and Amerindians. Sundaland theory anyone?

And my point of view is borne out of collating other evidence, from the scientific to the metaphysical. Paul Kekai Manansala, an intuitive and a scholar, spoke of the Sambalic areas as THE AXIS MUNDI. Archaeoanthropolinguistgeneticists intuitives like Oppenheimer, Solheim believe in the Eden in the East and have lots of scientific evidence proving that and are not exactly in favor of OUT OF TAIWAN theory. Whether you believe my opinion or don't is your opinion that I have to respect. Again, nobody can claim the monopoly of truth and the absolute Truth is the domain of the perfected ascended beings and Divine Providence Herself/Himself.

Edit: Paul Kekai Manansala more than qualifies as a linguist with his scholarly linguistic and scientific works like these...

http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/lang.htm

Austronesian Navigation and Migration
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/austro.htm

Austric Influence in India
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/austric.htm

Austric relationship of Sumerian Language
http://asiapacificuniverse.com/pkm/sumer.htm


Paul Manansala himself is open to the study & expert opinions of others. Read the quote I posted above. He has since reanalysed these points. & you are putting words into his mouth. Again, please don't make this thread into another Aeta thread or Out of Taiwan vs Sunda thread. Like you said, you have many threads here already dedicated to that subject.

Be reasonable, apply some humility in yourself please.

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AnybodyKiller
post Feb 17 2012, 02:27 PM
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QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 17 2012, 01:07 PM) *
That is true but that is not the point, the point is you have no standing or credibility in the scientific community to question or tackle the theories brought forward. The ones who are in such a position to do so have merit because they have earned it through serious study, in other words they have degrees. I think you may think too little of both archaeology & linguistics that you assume any person off the street with no college education, masteral degree, phd are equipped to challenge such theories. If you are serious with challenging these scholars who have studied for years on the subject at hand, then take your hypothesis off internet frums, get a degree in archaeology & linguistics & challenge them.

Everyone is free to make their own opinions, fabricated or not, but as people we need to be rational & take responsibility with intentional misinformation or misrepresentation of self & data.

Linguistics & archarology both belong to social sciences, they are not exact, therefore one should be all the more prudent, careful, exact & strict with their research & proclamations. That is the very point I am trying to make. We cannot afford to be careless in such a subject. Also, your presentations are not theories but mere hypothesis. A theory is dependent & subjected to scientific scrutiny & method. None of us is capable of subjecting such hypothesis to tests, these hypothesis are all interesting. But be logical & rationale, you need to test such ideas & see where & if they stand for them to hold any water or weight. I can make any proclamations like we are all aliens from the planet Marduk, but without a serious study & test imposed upon it, it is all empty conjecture out of people's imagination.

Now, you bring the topic back to Out of Taiwan theory which has nothing to do with the subject of the thread. Almost every thread here is devoted to posters/trolls/haters dedication to Filipino genes, yet no one cares to talk about Filipino culture, history, sociology, politics, etc. I have avoided every troll baited thread here, please don't relegate this thread into another Aeta/Korean/NE Asian thread. & this will be my last response to any post of yours unrelated to the discussion at hand.



Fine. SO you have to threads & many more here dedicated to your interest, why try to steer this thread into another one of those? We don't need every thread to be about genes of Filipinos. Let's have a few threads about our culture & history shall we?





Maybe maybe maybe? Maybe all Filipino languages are in fact Romance languages or Sinitic? Come on. I think I will rely more on experts/professionals with years of serious study under their belts than some poster on an internet site. Please don't be offended, but remember 'humility is not only a virtue, it is rationale.' Please be rationale, why should one listen to a person just learning to count over a mathematician?



Paul Manansala himself is open to the study & expert opinions of others. Read the quote I posted above. He has since reanalysed these points. & you are putting words into his mouth. Again, please don't make this thread into another Aeta thread or Out of Taiwan vs Sunda thread. Like you said, you have many threads here already dedicated to that subject.

Be reasonable, apply some humility in yourself please.


The reason I started independently studying genetics is because that's where the 'attacks' seem to be coming from nowadays. People claim Filipinos are 70% East Asian wtih 30% Papuan, Australian Aboriginal etc. (which isn't even true in the first place) as if these people are somehow "obviously less evolved" . Biological caste system etc. I like being able to refute people like this.

Even mainstream linguistics and archeology I take as currently accepted theories because it's soft science and are subjective to interpretation. Agreed.

Also the thread has derailed as you pointed out. Sorry. beerchug.gif
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post Feb 17 2012, 02:57 PM
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QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 18 2012, 03:27 AM) *
The reason I started independently studying genetics is because that's where the 'attacks' seem to be coming from nowadays. People claim Filipinos are 70% East Asian wtih 30% Papuan, Australian Aboriginal etc. (which isn't even true in the first place) as if these people are somehow "obviously less evolved" . Biological caste system etc. I like being able to refute people like this.

Even mainstream linguistics and archeology I take as currently accepted theories because it's soft science and are subjective to interpretation. Agreed.

Also the thread has derailed as you pointed out. Sorry. beerchug.gif



It's the same for me AK & believe me, I feel you. Tris probably feels it strongly too as well as many posters here. The thing is most threads here are dedicated to that, I wish Filipinos would take interest in their culture, society, history & politics as well. There is more to being Filipino.

At ittatagalog ko ito dahil ayaw kong maintindihan tayo ng mga dayuhan ha? Maraming mga dayuhan dito na mababa ang tingin sa mga Pinoy, hindi tumutulong na lalo natin ito pinapalaganap kapag binubuhos natin ang buong pagka-pinoy sa ating dugo at ang pagkakaiba natin sa isa't isa. Ito ang dahilan kung bakit hindi tayo umuunlad. Nung dumating ang mga Kastila, hiwa hiwalay tayo bate sa tribo o pangkat natin. Napansin ito ng mga Kastila at ginamit para lalo tayong mag-away away sa isa't isa at hindi magkaisa para mag-rebolusyon. Hanggang ngayon, pagkatapos ng 100 taon, ganun parin tayo. Iba't iba ang pinanggalingan natin, halo halo ang dugo natin pero ang pagiging Pilipino hindi lamang sa laman ng dugo, nasa pag-iisip at sa kultura nating lahat. Sana man lang, hindi lang ang pagkadugo ang nasa tutok ng mga isipan natin, mayaman ang kulturang pilipino. Sana maipakita natin sa mundo kung gaano tayo kayaman.
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post Feb 17 2012, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 17 2012, 01:57 PM) *
It's the same for me AK & believe me, I feel you. Tris probably feels it strongly too as well as many posters here. The thing is most threads here are dedicated to that, I wish Filipinos would take interest in their culture, society, history & politics as well. There is more to being Filipino.

At ittatagalog ko ito dahil ayaw kong maintindihan tayo ng mga dayuhan ha? Maraming mga dayuhan dito na mababa ang tingin sa mga Pinoy, hindi tumutulong na lalo natin ito pinapalaganap kapag binubuhos natin ang buong pagka-pinoy sa ating dugo at ang pagkakaiba natin sa isa't isa. Ito ang dahilan kung bakit hindi tayo umuunlad. Nung dumating ang mga Kastila, hiwa hiwalay tayo bate sa tribo o pangkat natin. Napansin ito ng mga Kastila at ginamit para lalo tayong mag-away away sa isa't isa at hindi magkaisa para mag-rebolusyon. Hanggang ngayon, pagkatapos ng 100 taon, ganun parin tayo. Iba't iba ang pinanggalingan natin, halo halo ang dugo natin pero ang pagiging Pilipino hindi lamang sa laman ng dugo, nasa pag-iisip at sa kultura nating lahat. Sana man lang, hindi lang ang pagkadugo ang nasa tutok ng mga isipan natin, mayaman ang kulturang pilipino. Sana maipakita natin sa mundo kung gaano tayo kayaman.


There is definitely more to a people than genetics. In fact I'd say that culture is the most important factor in defining a people. Even genetically similar people can be considered a different ethnicity. For instance Finnish people are further from German/English people than Greek people, yet are considered more white than them.

We have a rich and diverse culture that we should be celebrating and not forgetting. Divide and conquer is part of the Imperialist MO. Get the people to fight each other, then when all sides are nursing their injuries, strike hardest. Being colonized for such a long period of time, people start to dislike themselves as remnants of this colonial mentality. Even in the movie 'Lumpia' I posted in the other thread there is evidence of this. These new 'biological determinists' don't help our situation either. I think you're right that enough has been said about genetics because of the people who would make us seem biologically inferior. We should now focus on history, culture and even politics/current events in our discussions.

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post Feb 17 2012, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 18 2012, 04:35 AM) *
There is definitely more to a people than genetics. In fact I'd say that culture is the most important factor in defining a people. Even genetically similar people can be considered a different ethnicity. For instance Finnish people are further from German/English people than Greek people, yet are considered more white than them.

We have a rich and diverse culture that we should be celebrating and not forgetting. Divide and conquer is part of the Imperialist MO. Get the people to fight each other, then when all sides are nursing their injuries, strike hardest. Being colonized for such a long period of time, people start to dislike themselves as remnants of this colonial mentality. Even in the movie 'Lumpia' I posted in the other thread there is evidence of this. These new 'biological determinists' don't help our situation either. I think you're right that enough has been said about genetics because of the people who would make us seem biologically inferior. We should now focus on history, culture and even politics/current events in our discussions.



Yes, I did read that. It was very surprising!

The Philippines offers so much potential in the arts & humanities in terms of films & literature. The fact that we have so many diverse & rich cultures is a source of insurmountable wealth! There is so much that could be done in exploring, exposing & utilizing such cultures! Imagine the potential if only we can tap into that & use it! But we should have unity foremost in our minds, because none of us can do it alone without the other, we need each other. Therefore we should all be more sensitive to the differences & similarities between us. I am against anything that divides & breeds hostility amongst Filipinos, we should not fall for that bait. Besides, the study of Filipino genes is IMO very limited, there have been no extensive studies to truly make any conclusions. & IMO, I will leave it up to the experts & for those who troll & hates Filipinos, don't fall for their bait. Many people troll others for whatever reason, never feed the troll, ignore it. Because feeding it only fans the flames, & in the end, they win.

My concern is more on Filipino culture, we need to preserve & remember to instill pride & unity amongst us. I wish we had more varied literature, Filipinos are amongst the best writers out there since time immemorial. We have a reputation for being linguistically adept (except me, lol!), so I don't know what's stopping us from writing masterpieces! IMO, it is only ourselves that's stopping us from reaching our own potential as a people.

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post Feb 17 2012, 10:43 PM
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QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 17 2012, 03:14 PM) *
Yes, I did read that. It was very surprising!

The Philippines offers so much potential in the arts & humanities in terms of films & literature. The fact that we have so many diverse & rich cultures is a source of insurmountable wealth! There is so much that could be done in exploring, exposing & utilizing such cultures! Imagine the potential if only we can tap into that & use it! But we should have unity foremost in our minds, because none of us can do it alone without the other, we need each other. Therefore we should all be more sensitive to the differences & similarities between us. I am against anything that divides & breeds hostility amongst Filipinos, we should not fall for that bait. Besides, the study of Filipino genes is IMO very limited, there have been no extensive studies to truly make any conclusions. & IMO, I will leave it up to the experts & for those who troll & hates Filipinos, don't fall for their bait. Many people troll others for whatever reason, never feed the troll, ignore it. Because feeding it only fans the flames, & in the end, they win.

My concern is more on Filipino culture, we need to preserve & remember to instill pride & unity amongst us. I wish we had more varied literature, Filipinos are amongst the best writers out there since time immemorial. We have a reputation for being linguistically adept (except me, lol!), so I don't know what's stopping us from writing masterpieces! IMO, it is only ourselves that's stopping us from reaching our own potential as a people.


I agree, that there is much to be gained through tapping into our culture. Right now many don't know much about their culture and what they do know is only part of the story. For example, many of my friends for the longest time thought our culture was only "head hunters" before the Spanish came. This is truly unacceptable. It's fine with me that many choose to identify with this aspect, but to not know anything else is terrible. A problem I see is that there isn't a lot of Filipino representation in Anthropology, that's why I tip my hat to people like Tris for his informative posts. The amount of data on genetics of the Philippines is limited compared to a lot of other populations, but there has been a lot more available recently. If we viewed people according to genetics we are all the same species with no sub-species. However, visible characteristics, religion, culture and political agendas are more important to defining ethnicity ten fold. By any means genetic makeup is not as important as history and culture, genetics is merely supplementary and can act as a hard scientific proof for the naysayers.

You're right, it is only ourselves stopping us from succeeding. There definitely should be more writers, we just need to spark the interest in the first place. In addition to relearning our history and reaffirming our culture, I think it would be helpful for more people to be knowledgeable of world events, local issues and politics.

This post has been edited by AnybodyKiller: Feb 17 2012, 10:44 PM
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nenabunena
post Feb 21 2012, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 18 2012, 11:43 AM) *
I agree, that there is much to be gained through tapping into our culture. Right now many don't know much about their culture and what they do know is only part of the story. For example, many of my friends for the longest time thought our culture was only "head hunters" before the Spanish came. This is truly unacceptable. It's fine with me that many choose to identify with this aspect, but to not know anything else is terrible. A problem I see is that there isn't a lot of Filipino representation in Anthropology, that's why I tip my hat to people like Tris for his informative posts. The amount of data on genetics of the Philippines is limited compared to a lot of other populations, but there has been a lot more available recently. If we viewed people according to genetics we are all the same species with no sub-species. However, visible characteristics, religion, culture and political agendas are more important to defining ethnicity ten fold. By any means genetic makeup is not as important as history and culture, genetics is merely supplementary and can act as a hard scientific proof for the naysayers.

You're right, it is only ourselves stopping us from succeeding. There definitely should be more writers, we just need to spark the interest in the first place. In addition to relearning our history and reaffirming our culture, I think it would be helpful for more people to be knowledgeable of world events, local issues and politics.



It is sad the limited knowledge some Filipinos have about Filipino culture. 1, head hunting from my understanding is limited to the mountain groups in Luzon. 2nd, it's nothing to be embarrassed about. Do you watch movies about Native Americans? I love watching these types of movies, they are presented as very noble & brave people. Even films like Apocalypto present them as a very fierce survival type of people (there is a lot of positivity even in such films), in fact many have crushes on the Halcones due to that movie alone. Imagine that! LOL! Filipinos should take note how America depicts its own native population, we can learn from them & extract what can be used in a Filipino mindset (basta wag gaya gaya ha?) our indigenous culture.

I agree with most of what you say, except one. I have been researching for a long time, misinformation & ignorance can be even more dangerous IMO.

Those naysayers are mostly intentional haters/trolls, they say what they say to get under your skin. They want us to be affected & say something stupid to make ourselves look bad. We shouldn't fall for it. Kung lahat ba tayo nagfifilipino nalang or nagsusulat ng baybayin, ok sana. Para ang mga problema at away away natin, hindi lumalabas at nabibisto ng mga dayuhan. Honestly, you go to a ghetto neighborhood, do you expect those types of people to act with manners & breeding? no. Same with posters here who malign Filipinos, it reflects their background, mga ghetto mga yan, so ba't natin sila papatulan?

I do agree it is vital to be knowledgeable but it's even more vital that you understand & are knowledgeable with true facts/science, not false ones.
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post Feb 21 2012, 10:18 PM
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QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 21 2012, 08:42 PM) *
It is sad the limited knowledge some Filipinos have about Filipino culture. 1, head hunting from my understanding is limited to the mountain groups in Luzon. 2nd, it's nothing to be embarrassed about. Do you watch movies about Native Americans? I love watching these types of movies, they are presented as very noble & brave people. Even films like Apocalypto present them as a very fierce survival type of people (there is a lot of positivity even in such films), in fact many have crushes on the Halcones due to that movie alone. Imagine that! LOL! Filipinos should take note how America depicts its own native population, we can learn from them & extract what can be used in a Filipino mindset (basta wag gaya gaya ha?) our indigenous culture.

I agree with most of what you say, except one. I have been researching for a long time, misinformation & ignorance can be even more dangerous IMO.

Those naysayers are mostly intentional haters/trolls, they say what they say to get under your skin. They want us to be affected & say something stupid to make ourselves look bad. We shouldn't fall for it. Kung lahat ba tayo nagfifilipino nalang or nagsusulat ng baybayin, ok sana. Para ang mga problema at away away natin, hindi lumalabas at nabibisto ng mga dayuhan. Honestly, you go to a ghetto neighborhood, do you expect those types of people to act with manners & breeding? no. Same with posters here who malign Filipinos, it reflects their background, mga ghetto mga yan, so ba't natin sila papatulan?

I do agree it is vital to be knowledgeable but it's even more vital that you understand & are knowledgeable with true facts/science, not false ones.

Oh definitely! Nothing wrong with it at all, that's just not all there is. Many Fil-Ams relish and are in love with this type of culture and identity.Example

Good point we shouldn't give those kinds of people the time of day. Yeah, AF is full of trolls who just like to go around 'prank posting' people to laugh at emotional responses. Not only Filipinos but all Southeast Asians are seen as having inferiority complexes.

Yeah, It's important to only state facts and not get carried away. If you state something as fact that people later discover is blatantly false, you will lose credibility. I am also guilty of sometimes portraying my theories in too much of a 'matter of fact' light.
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post Feb 21 2012, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 22 2012, 11:18 AM) *
Oh definitely! Nothing wrong with it at all, that's just not all there is. Many Fil-Ams relish and are in love with this type of culture and identity.Example


I think a lot of Filipinos are feeling this too. But I'm a bit concerned with how these tattoos are earned. In the past, it was a matter of prestige & privilege to gain these tattoos. You have to earn them to wear them proudly. If they lose the integrity & prestige behind the earning of the tattoos, doesn't it lessen the inherent value of said tattoo? Perhaps they could be incorporated in certain events/feats, ie. in our military perhaps or in our own FMA, you earn them when a level is reached. Wouldn't that make these tattooing tradition more prestigious?

I had read somewhere that there was a group that promoted Filipino tattoos but what they were doing was hijacking Polynesian tattoos, do you remember the name of the group? Nakakahiya naman.
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post Feb 22 2012, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 21 2012, 09:32 PM) *
I think a lot of Filipinos are feeling this too. But I'm a bit concerned with how these tattoos are earned. In the past, it was a matter of prestige & privilege to gain these tattoos. You have to earn them to wear them proudly. If they lose the integrity & prestige behind the earning of the tattoos, doesn't it lessen the inherent value of said tattoo? Perhaps they could be incorporated in certain events/feats, ie. in our military perhaps or in our own FMA, you earn them when a level is reached. Wouldn't that make these tattooing tradition more prestigious?

I had read somewhere that there was a group that promoted Filipino tattoos but what they were doing was hijacking Polynesian tattoos, do you remember the name of the group? Nakakahiya naman.


People just get them because they look cool most of the time. It's very expensive to get a more authentic one that tells your story and accomplishments. I think it would be great if we could incorporate more cultural meaning behind the tattoos rather than just get whatever looks good etc. Reminds me of this one time a Nicoraguan friend of mine asked a friend of ours who is Filipino with a tribal tattoo "what tribe are you from?" in a kind of condescending way. My friend answered "I'm Visayan, what tribe is your family from?" My Hispanic friend couldn't answer. Some people take the true meaning of these tattoos to heart, while most wear them as a fashion statement or accessory.

Ridiculous. How can Filipinos hijack Polynesian tattoos when they got the tattooing aspect of their culture from Austronesians in the first place? embarassedlaugh.gif
I guess I could see their point though in that Filipinos who don't know the true meaning of say Samoan tattoos get them on a whim.
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post Feb 22 2012, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 22 2012, 03:44 PM) *
People just get them because they look cool most of the time. It's very expensive to get a more authentic one that tells your story and accomplishments. I think it would be great if we could incorporate more cultural meaning behind the tattoos rather than just get whatever looks good etc. Reminds me of this one time a Nicoraguan friend of mine asked a friend of ours who is Filipino with a tribal tattoo "what tribe are you from?" in a kind of condescending way. My friend answered "I'm Visayan, what tribe is your family from?" My Hispanic friend couldn't answer. Some people take the true meaning of these tattoos to heart, while most wear them as a fashion statement or accessory.

Ridiculous. How can Filipinos hijack Polynesian tattoos when they got the tattooing aspect of their culture from Austronesians in the first place? embarassedlaugh.gif
I guess I could see their point though in that Filipinos who don't know the true meaning of say Samoan tattoos get them on a whim.



Yeah, I guess that's the way modernity is, I just wish we can preserve the value & precedents behind it you know? I mean, wouldn't it be beyond cool for our FMA practitioners to get a tattoo for the recognition of their achievements & based on their level? Instead of a belt, you get a particular tribal tattoo? lol!

I had a professor who was very offended when asked what tribe he was from. But your friend gave a good answer, sometimes people don't mean to be offensive though When they say tribe, sometimes they mean ethnic group.

Well Polynesians are Austronesians & they did get it from the Austronesians in Asia but there are differences in their tattooing to ours. despite a commonality of being Austronesians & some shared culture, we are still different culturally as our histories, so when you present a Filipino tattoo using tattoos of other ethnic groups/nations, then it's not genuine in being Filipino is it? Similar to how Chinese are different from Koreans & Japanese, there is a shared link but they are still different. A Chinese wearing a kimono saying it's Chinese would not be honest. Polynesians I read are very proud of who they are, they don't like other cultures hijacking what is uniquely their's. Besides, I don't think there is a need for us to hijack some else's culture, our's is rich & interesting enough to be proud of I think.

But sometimes I also go to stalls here where they supposedly sell Filipino products. 1 which I bought being sold as Filipino was a red Native American dreamcatcher earings! YIKES! So I guess it's not just a problem with tattooing. But I wonder how those dreamcatchers can be misassumed by Filipinos to be native? Weren't there 2 Native American tribes brought to the Philippines? Maybe those dreamcatchers came from them? I see dreamcatchers everywhere here being sold as Native.

I found a good book on Amazon about Filipino tattooing & native medicines. I wish we had our own Amazon here in the Philippines!

This post has been edited by nenabunena: Feb 22 2012, 07:07 PM
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Posts in this topic
- nenabunena   What is Pangasinense?   Feb 11 2012, 05:16 PM
- - AnybodyKiller   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 11 2012, 05:16 PM...   Feb 12 2012, 03:19 PM
- - Jc2   Pangasinan is a Cordilleran language that is spoke...   Feb 12 2012, 04:01 PM
|- - nenabunena   QUOTE (Jc2 @ Feb 13 2012, 05:01 AM) Panga...   Feb 12 2012, 05:52 PM
|- - martin_nuke   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 12 2012, 06:52 PM...   Feb 12 2012, 09:15 PM
- - trismegistos   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 11 2012, 05:16 PM...   Feb 12 2012, 09:09 PM
|- - silangan   QUOTE (trismegistos @ Feb 12 2012, 09:09 ...   Feb 14 2012, 01:53 AM
||- - nenabunena   QUOTE (silangan @ Feb 14 2012, 02:53 PM) ...   Feb 14 2012, 12:03 PM
|- - nenabunena   QUOTE (trismegistos @ Feb 13 2012, 10:09 ...   Feb 14 2012, 11:59 AM
|- - trismegistos   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 14 2012, 11:59 AM...   Feb 15 2012, 07:53 PM
|- - AnybodyKiller   QUOTE (trismegistos @ Feb 15 2012, 07:53 ...   Feb 15 2012, 08:09 PM
||- - trismegistos   QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 15 2012, 08:09...   Feb 15 2012, 08:18 PM
||- - AnybodyKiller   QUOTE (trismegistos @ Feb 15 2012, 08:18 ...   Feb 15 2012, 08:28 PM
||- - trismegistos   K* MNOPS and Paragroup K is the nearest to the ori...   Feb 16 2012, 07:36 PM
||- - filipinai   QUOTE (trismegistos @ Feb 16 2012, 08:36 ...   Feb 17 2012, 12:08 AM
|||- - trismegistos   QUOTE (filipinai @ Feb 17 2012, 12:08 AM)...   Feb 17 2012, 02:33 AM
||- - AnybodyKiller   QUOTE (trismegistos @ Feb 16 2012, 06:36 ...   Feb 17 2012, 01:52 PM
|- - nenabunena   QUOTE (trismegistos @ Feb 16 2012, 08:53 ...   Feb 17 2012, 02:07 PM
|- - AnybodyKiller   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 17 2012, 01:07 PM...   Feb 17 2012, 02:27 PM
||- - nenabunena   QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 18 2012, 03:27...   Feb 17 2012, 02:57 PM
||- - AnybodyKiller   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 17 2012, 01:57 PM...   Feb 17 2012, 03:35 PM
||- - nenabunena   QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 18 2012, 04:35...   Feb 17 2012, 04:14 PM
||- - AnybodyKiller   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 17 2012, 03:14 PM...   Feb 17 2012, 10:43 PM
||- - nenabunena   QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 18 2012, 11:43...   Feb 21 2012, 08:42 PM
||- - AnybodyKiller   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 21 2012, 08:42 PM...   Feb 21 2012, 10:18 PM
||- - nenabunena   QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 22 2012, 11:18...   Feb 21 2012, 10:32 PM
||- - AnybodyKiller   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 21 2012, 09:32 PM...   Feb 22 2012, 02:44 AM
||- - nenabunena   QUOTE (AnybodyKiller @ Feb 22 2012, 03:44...   Feb 22 2012, 07:03 PM
|- - trismegistos   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 17 2012, 02:07 PM...   Feb 22 2012, 07:42 PM
- - filipinai   I am pangasinense and a lot of our fellow kababaya...   Feb 15 2012, 06:02 AM
- - nenabunena   Great, this thread has been face lifted into anoth...   Feb 17 2012, 02:15 PM
- - nenabunena   Tris, you can't even follow a simple discourse...   Feb 24 2012, 06:29 AM
- - trismegistos   QUOTE (nenabunena @ Feb 24 2012, 06:29 AM...   Jun 7 2012, 07:18 PM


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