I'm sick of all this whining Options

[CTM2000]

From the damn PRC. I know I sound a bit anti-China lately but I just can't help it. I'm sick and tired of the Chinese getting so hypersensitive about issues like historical revisionism. Yes the Japanese committed horrible atrocities in the past and yes they are unapologetic but seriously the whole textbook issue is just plain fvckin stupid. China has committed it's fair share of atrocities over her long imperial history and has she ever apologized for any of them? Has she ever apologized to Tibet or Xinjiang? No in fact they're genocidal plans of sinification are taking place right here and now as I talk! That whole sinification method that so many Chinese are proud of are nothing but Chinese expansionist policies and cultural genocide. I find it amazing that people to this day still see China as a victim of imperial aggression during the 19th and 20th centuries. China was not a victim in fact the Qing dynasty was the greatest extent of Chinese imperialism ever. China was not a victim at all, just a weaker bully being bullied by stronger ones aka Europeans and Japanese. China to this day are behaving as an imperialist nation, annexing non China proper territories and soon Taiwan. The imperial Japanese government failed in the end and their empire died along with their militaristic ambition, the problem is to this day the Chinese government still behaves as an imperialist power. The PRC is also the greatest historical revisionists of all time, what the Japanese write in their textbooks don't even compare to the amount of revisionism that is done by the PRC. When the PRC decides to rightly apologize for their atrocities, ones they are currently committing as I speak right now, then maybe they'll deserve one from Japan.

[freefallz]

Why don't you join a proper organisation in real life and voice your opinion on that basis. In here people are going to continue to raise 'seemingly ignorant' views on certain issues whether you like it or not. Additionally there are no decisive ways to determine other's ignorance except by one's own perspective. I am getting tired of the whinings too (that also includes this thread and other similar ones). Look at it this way. PRC is a communist government, there will always be unlimited inadequacies about the system. If you really want to make a change so you can enforce how people post in this section, try taking your case to the politicians in China.

This post has been edited by freefallz: Apr 25 2005, 05:21 AM

[khu91x]

If I was in the prc government i'd probably try to brainwash everyone too.

[barkerintokyo]

You are absolutely right, except Japan has been VERY VERY apologetic. Japan was very apologetic to the Chinese and it is reflected in the numerous apologies our PM has given.

However, no country should be apologetic for imperialism during the early 20th century, whether it be Japan, America, China, or any European power. That was the accepted idea at the time. People did not know that they were doing something wrong. That was the standard of morals back then. We cannot look back at the people of the past and say that they are bad people with the standard of judgement we have today. What if one day, the feminists decide that pornography is a violation of female rights and pornography is outlawed. Do you think it would be right if little kids were taught in their textbooks about "forcible transit of video sex slaves." Or that the men of the world were aiding the enslavement of helpless female victims? Would you want middle school students telling their grandfathers that they were cruel accomplices to the "Rape of Adult Video?" Standards of judgement and morals change over time. You cannot blame people of the past for something that they did not know would eventually become socially unacceptable. Imperialism was something that all countries viewed as good at the time. In the survival of the fittest world of the early 20th century, it was colonize or be colonized.

However, now, when we have socially established the idea that imperialism is wrong, China should be punished for its actions today. The rest, I agree with CTM2000

This post has been edited by barkerintokyo: Apr 25 2005, 05:25 AM

[freefallz]

Personally, they do not have to necessarily apologise but they must recognise their mistakes and place a contemporary value of judgement on the formal issues. There is no point in telling "their" perspective of things when it is not evaluated under today's modern ethnics. Otherwise history loses its significance.

Furthermore, the poor state of democracy in PRC should not be an excuse for the Japanese people (not talking about the governments on both sides) to negate the mistakes of their own former government if such mentality ever becomes predominant (textbooks). Two wrong do not make a right. It's unfortunate that so many people in mainland are not aware of their own situations but this is no time for Japan to soften its discipline and respect for history.

This post has been edited by freefallz: Apr 25 2005, 05:51 AM

[Jaimu-Jaimu]

However, no country should be apologetic for imperialism during the early 20th century, whether it be Japan, America, China, or any European power. That was the accepted idea at the time. People did not know that they were doing something wrong. That was the standard of morals back then. We cannot look back at the people of the past and say that they are bad people with the standard of judgement we have today.

Smartest thing that I've seen you write. 100% agreement.

On the otherhand, is it really so hard to apologise when one country makes such a big deal over it? Does it really hurt a country nowadays to apologise for what was clearly wrong in the past? If India got worked up over anything that happened there during English occupation for example, would it be so difficult to apologise for that?

I think we all agree that nowadays, imperialism is wrong and the act of taking over other countries wrong. But the whole Japan-China thing got ridiculous. An apology is a simple awknowledgement of past mistakes and instead of being perceived as an act of weakness should be seen as a strong move to try and compensate for the hurt caused in the past.

So while we shouldn't expect imperialist nations to apologise for what happened, if one country does make it a serious issue that threatens future relations, does it really hurt to apologise?

However, now, when we have socially established the idea that imperialism is wrong, China should be punished for its actions today.

I disagree here though. Even if Japan was found to be completely guilty in all that it did in the past, should this generation be punished for it? In the same way, I would think the same of China. Apologising for what someone else has done is ok, but punishing someone for what others have done is wrong and unjust.

EDIT: You wrote this whilst I was posting (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Furthermore, the poor state of democracy in PRC should not be an excuse for the Japanese people (not talking about the governments on both sides) to negate the mistakes of their own former government if such mentality ever becomes predominant (textbooks)

The difference is that Japan revises history under the guise of a democracy where every person should be free to receive the truth and not have it controlled by a government. The PRC makes no such promise. So though there may appear to be a double-standard, Japan in fact, has a different obligation.

This post has been edited by Jaimu-Jaimu: Apr 25 2005, 05:57 AM

[freefallz]

Which by principle renders unfairness between the PRC and the democratic Japanese government. Another reason why communism is becoming obselete and inappropriate in the postmodern era.

[Jaimu-Jaimu]

Which by principle renders unfairness between the PRC and the democratic Japanese government. Another reason why communism is becoming obselete and inappropriate in the postmodern era.

Agreed.

But disposing of a communist regime normally only occurs after an economic meltdown or similar problems. In the state of modern China, I don't see this happening and as such, the problems of the rest of the world trying to relate to China are still going to be there.

[freefallz]

If China can make a 'peaceful' transition from communism to democracy, then a new frontier in history will be established.

This post has been edited by freefallz: Apr 25 2005, 06:22 AM

[Jaimu-Jaimu]

If China can make a 'peaceful' transition  from communism to democracy, then a new frontier in history will be established.

Would be nice but I don't see it happening.

Then there's the American way of going into countries and forcing them to change their governments. Don't see that as the way forward either.

[freefallz]

No I don't think America will 'democratise' China anytime in the next 10 years at least.

[barkerintokyo]

When I said that China is wrong for what its doing now and Japan was not wrong for what it did in the early 20th century, it was not out of simple racism. China is being an imperialist in the 21st century, when imperialism is recognized as wrong and China knows this as it is doing it. However, when Japan was imperializing, it was at a time when Western countries were all imperializing and imperialism had a positive connotation. 20th century Japan had no idea that imperialism would one day be conceived as negative. Japan, working in its own best interests (to survive), did something we perceive TODAY as wrong: imperialize. However, back then it was not wrong and Japan did not take wrong actions. We cannot admonish the people of the past for doing something that was socially acceptable.

I brought up an example of pornography. Right now, pornography is not considered an evil and many men of the world look at it freely. However, what if one day, in the democracies of the world, a movement led by feminists makes pornography illegal? This is not entirely an unrealistic story. Textbooks 100 years in the future may state that women were forcibly made to do things in front of the camera against their will. Textbooks may teach this as a dark era of human history where women's rights were violated and the gender degraded. Wouldn't it be wrong if the people of a century in the future admonished the men of today for looking at pornography? How would you like it if you, a healthy male who periodically peruses through a magazine, grows old and eventually gets yelled at by your own grandchild for being a sex fiend and a violator of women's rights? You would try to tell your grandchild that people of the early 21st century didn't have serious moral qualms at looking at pornography. You woul try to explain that it was considered healthy and was socially accepted in moderate doses. Your grandchild will then yell at you and label you a whitewasher of history.

You see, you cannot judge the actions and the people of the past with the standards and sentiments that exist today. It's just not fair to these people. Imperialism is not something to be ashamed of. However, it is shameful to have committed atrocities and that must be apologized for. That's where the question of whether Japan really committed atrocities comes into center stage. It is really important that we critically analyze whether the Chinese claims of Japanese atrocities have really occurred. Usually, when two countries differ in their account of history, the countries would set up their own research committees and research history together. However, in Japan and CHina's case, only China has set up a research committee to examine the atrocities. Naturally, the CHinese came to the conclusion that Japan was guilty on all counts and the official number of the Nanking Massacre came out to be 300,000. What Japan needs to do, as a modern nation, is establish a committee to research Nanking Massacre, Unit 731, conditions in Manchuria, Korea, and Taiwan, and comfort women, and check their validity. Japan's government needs to examine history. Why Japan has not done this before is beyond me. Japan continues to accept wholly the research of the Chinese government and their propaganda bureau and apologize repeatedly without questioning whether their research holds any credibility or not.

One way of ameliorating the situation is to establish a co-committee on reexamination of history. If the countries can work together and establish a history that both can agree upon, these "whitewashing" issues would be resolved.

[freefallz]

Yes a wholehearted apology may not be fair but those issues still have to be judged under contemporary values. For pornography, if it is outlawed in the future, then upon reflection we would/should see pornography to be 'morally degrading' from the ethical stance at THAT time. If somebody in the past generation is being blamed for viewing pornography, this simply stresses the individual to recognise his mistake (ie in doing what he did). Similarly if drug users weren't aware of the dangers associated with drugs before becoming addicted, then after rehabilitation they should remember their mistakes and see to it that:

1) they were wrong under their current background, in gaining greater knowledge about drugs.

2) they are to make the effort of preventing such misguided course of action in the future.

BT, no one is really disagreeing with your point. But as Jaimu said, Japan has an obligation to demonstrate its stance towards the events of history. It includes its evaluation on the matter regardless of what the Chinese government did at the time and what they are doing now. China is in the wrong but Japan is also not realising the seriousness of the issue at hand, which is a concern to all Asian nations, not just China. I emphaise again that two wrong do not make a right. To do something about PRC, you need to first of all undermine the validity of the communist government on the international scene. And if you want to delve more into it then it'll ultimately point to the Tiananmen square massacre and other simliar incidents. You are trying to equate China and Japan under a same political background.

This post has been edited by freefallz: Apr 25 2005, 07:59 AM

[barkerintokyo]

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with what you say. The people must look at the difference in standards in the past with the present and think things like, "Man, were times bad back then" or "I'm sure glad I live in this day and age." You shouldn't be thinking that these people need to be incriminated. Just like you can't arrest someone for commiting a crime before the law is enacted.

Your two points are correct. However, in the study of history, the people of that time are most likely not alive anymore. Those that are still alive most likely have already changed their view on imperialism. But what Japanese people and Chinese people and Koreans are doing today, is to criticize the actions of these survivors for not acting in correlation to today's standards of morality. This is not fair to this person. This person shouldn't be criticized for what he did.

Your example of drug addict is not exactly the correct analogy because most people in the world are not drug addicts and drug addicts can see that the majority of society frown upon drug taking. At the age of imperialism, the majority of the world viewed imperialism as a proper foreign policy stance.

Japan must look back at its militarism and imperialism and NOT think, "How terrible we were because we were militaristic and imperialistic." If we thought that, we're just not being fair to the people who made those decisions. We SHOULD think, "Wow, I can't believe that was the commonly held thing to do back then. I'm glad we've learned and established these new morals that we abide by. Let's hope militarism and imperialism don't rise again."

Another example that just came into my mind is eating whales. In Japan, about fifty years ago, whale meat was much more common than beef. Whale meat was served in regular households and eating beef was a luxury that no one enjoyed. Eventually, Japanese people, realizing that excessive whaling can cause the whales to die out, phased out whaling over the course of half a century. Eating whales or whaling is definitely frowned upon by people around the world today. But wouldn't it be very unfair if I went to my grandfather and said that he was a barbarian for eating whales when it's so obvious that eating whales is cruel? My grandfather had grown up eating whales and never knew that it was wrong. It would be very unfair to treat him as a criminal. I think the situation is the same with imperialism in the early 20th century.

[younghee]

Being mixed of heritage, Korean-Japanese, I think much of what has happened in the past was crazy.

But looking at what has happened in Vietnam (the longest war in American history) where something like 2 million Vietnamese and 50,000 American soldiers lost their lives, and recently the "ethnic cleansing" that went on in Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia, where 20,000 were brutally murdered due to minor differences in ethnicity and religion, I think this kind of craziness continues in other places in modern times.

I don't think it's fair just to incriminate Japan as the only country that has ever done wrong during times of war and aggression. Something could be said about the Iraq war and the deaths and casualties on "both sides" that have occured.

What could be called a white man's hypocrisy is as follows. Even countries like Australia and New Zeland in colonizing, killed off much of the aboriginal population to what is now less than 5% of their population. The same could be said about the US and South America. Much of the territory that belonged to the the native American Indians were taken away from them by the western Europeans, and the Indians were killed off or made to move to what we now call reservations. African slavery in the US involved bringing black slaves to American beyond their will to work on plantations. We read about the lynchings and tar and feathering that went on. There is still a town in Virginia, which was a slave state, that is called Lynchburg.

This is just a part of the entire picture of the fall and failings of man historically and in modern times. Being religious myself, I think it is wrong to kill another human being. And I think it is also wrong to torture another. I think war in itself represents a distancing of mankind away from God and his commandments. War in itself is irreligious and anti-Christian in my opinion.

I think that Prime Minister Koizumi has made an important move in apologizing about Japan's wartime aggression. It represents a change in attitude that the Japanese government is taking about its past. I think the Japanese Government should consider making concessions about revising Japanese textbooks, make an apology to Korea about historical wrongs because its refusal to do so is increasing negative talk on the Korea media about Japan, and diffuse tensions regarding Dokdo Island.

But then again, I think it would be wrong to single out Japan as the only country that has done wrong.

This post has been edited by younghee: Apr 26 2005, 09:41 PM

[Placidity]

I think you guys need to stop this anit Chinese/Japanese $hit.
Only hate people from North Korea. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Jokes (only apply the Jokes part when your reading it and if you're gonna ban me)

[n4ce12]

It is neither China nor Japan's fault. I blame the Americans, theywon't let the Japanese surrender because they want a divided asia.

I bet you WW2 was backed by USA as well, they bombed their own pearl harbour. I know this because Chinese and Japanese are both incredibly sexy and therefore always right.

[fraggo]

The biggest threat to the western world is a united asia.

[chilli21]

From the damn PRC. I know I sound a bit anti-China lately but I just can't help it. I'm sick and tired of the Chinese getting so hypersensitive about issues like historical revisionism. Yes the Japanese committed horrible atrocities in the past and yes they are unapologetic but seriously the whole textbook issue is just plain fvckin stupid. China has committed it's fair share of atrocities over her long imperial history and has she ever apologized for any of them? Has she ever apologized to Tibet or Xinjiang? No in fact they're genocidal plans of sinification are taking place right here and now as I talk! That whole sinification method that so many Chinese are proud of are nothing but Chinese expansionist policies and cultural genocide. I find it amazing that people to this day still see China as a victim of imperial aggression during the 19th and 20th centuries. China was not a victim in fact the Qing dynasty was the greatest extent of Chinese imperialism ever. China was not a victim at all, just a weaker bully being bullied by stronger ones aka Europeans and Japanese. China to this day are behaving as an imperialist nation, annexing non China proper territories and soon Taiwan. The imperial Japanese government failed in the end and their empire died along with their militaristic ambition, the problem is to this day the Chinese government still behaves as an imperialist power. The PRC is also the greatest historical revisionists of all time, what the Japanese write in their textbooks don't even compare to the amount of revisionism that is done by the PRC. When the PRC decides to rightly apologize for their atrocities, ones they are currently committing as I speak right now, then maybe they'll deserve one from Japan.

so maybe you should call on all countries in the world to apologise to each other even though the conflicts have gone back to thousands of years. but this is not the main point however, it's koizumi who started all those shrine visits and textbooks issues which have led the chinese talking about it. we're not talking about whether japan has apologised before but what is koizumi doing to his country.

[chynagongju]

United Asia would be so cool. We could pwn everyone!