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The Lao, who are they, and where they came from?, Pre-Lan Xang kingdom
Savan
post Dec 11 2007, 06:46 PM
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This post has been edited by Savan: Aug 23 2012, 04:28 AM
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aithong
post Dec 11 2007, 07:15 PM
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QUOTE(Savan @ Dec 11 2007, 07:46 PM) [snapback]3362279[/snapback]
Yes, we would love to learn more about Zhuang culture. In Lao dialect, "bao" = unmarried man, and "sao"= unmarried woman.

i'm wondering if alot of our tai cousins in China still share the same names as us in Lao and Thailand. I know some of you younger lao folks that spend most of your life here or were born here in states probably dont have Lao first names but in Lao and pretty much Thailand too, most of us have two names. Our official names, are normally pretty long, are not tai names and our play names are our tai names. I think Nungtinbao mentioned the name of his older brother was Hyeeng, that is also a lao name too. there was a Nang Hyeeng, in my old neighborhhood in Lao, that committed suicide.
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babyshanker
post Dec 12 2007, 09:06 AM
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Lao/Thai real name are our nickname. usually 1 or 2 syllable. Tui, Noi, Nang, Lae...you get the idea. some lao people never had last names until recently.
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aithong
post Dec 14 2007, 06:54 PM
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Dont forget Gai and Humlae.
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hawnying
post Dec 14 2007, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE(babyshanker @ Dec 12 2007, 10:06 PM) [snapback]3363512[/snapback]
Lao/Thai real name are our nickname. usually 1 or 2 syllable. Tui, Noi, Nang, Lae...you get the idea. some lao people never had last names until recently.

I have to say Zhuang names are the same. In history, zhuang people have no family names, and existing last names have been borrowed from Han. I think it has many things to do with Zhuang people's life style, the so-called "na" culture. na means rice field.

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hawnying
post Dec 14 2007, 09:11 PM
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QUOTE(aithong @ Dec 12 2007, 08:15 AM) [snapback]3362353[/snapback]
i'm wondering if alot of our tai cousins in China still share the same names as us in Lao and Thailand. I know some of you younger lao folks that spend most of your life here or were born here in states probably dont have Lao first names but in Lao and pretty much Thailand too, most of us have two names. Our official names, are normally pretty long, are not tai names and our play names are our tai names. I think Nungtinbao mentioned the name of his older brother was Hyeeng, that is also a lao name too. there was a Nang Hyeeng, in my old neighborhhood in Lao, that committed suicide.

I am sorry to hear the things happened to Hyeeng.
As for Zhuang names, I think most zhuang people still have two names.
When I was very young, I was called "di-mbong", "di" is usually put before a girl's name, while "i" a boy's name.mbong means (a baby) fat and , chubby, or (a plant) flourishing,lush. I think it was a typical Zhuang name.
Our official names are Han Characters. It is a pity also that some young generation born and grow up in the city without a Zhuang language environment may never be given a real Zhuang name.
Very nice to talk to Lao people here. I am so happy.
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aithong
post Dec 15 2007, 02:19 AM
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QUOTE(hawnying @ Dec 14 2007, 10:11 PM) [snapback]3368124[/snapback]
I am sorry to hear the things happened to Hyeeng.
As for Zhuang names, I think most zhuang people still have two names.
When I was very young, I was called "di-mbong", "di" is usually put before a girl's name, while "i" a boy's name.mbong means (a baby) fat and , chubby, or (a plant) flourishing,lush. I think it was a typical Zhuang name.
Our official names are Han Characters. It is a pity also that some young generation born and grow up in the city without a Zhuang language environment may never be given a real Zhuang name.
Very nice to talk to Lao people here. I am so happy.


I'm just kind of curious because there's alot tai dum people that i know that have the same names as us and was wondering since the tai dum people are from Northern Vietnam and are closer to the Nung people of northern Vietnam and China. To be honest, i think Tai dum people have the same accent as the Nung/southern zhuang people.
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aithong
post Dec 15 2007, 02:24 AM
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Gai=chicken is a pretty common name for Lao/Thai/taidum people, do tai people of China have names like that?
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NungTinbao
post Dec 17 2007, 02:00 AM
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QUOTE(hawnying @ Dec 14 2007, 06:11 PM) [snapback]3368124[/snapback]
I am sorry to hear the things happened to Hyeeng.
As for Zhuang names, I think most zhuang people still have two names.
When I was very young, I was called "di-mbong", "di" is usually put before a girl's name, while "i" a boy's name.mbong means (a baby) fat and , chubby, or (a plant) flourishing,lush. I think it was a typical Zhuang name.
Our official names are Han Characters. It is a pity also that some young generation born and grow up in the city without a Zhuang language environment may never be given a real Zhuang name.
Very nice to talk to Lao people here. I am so happy.


Yes, most of southern Zhuang people still have two names too, one is official name which written by Han Characters, one is Native name which called by families and villagers.

So glad to see a Zhuang girl here, my NONG-SAO. laugh.gif
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aithong
post Dec 17 2007, 06:26 AM
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Younger sister is called nongsao in lao/thai also.

My official 1st name in Lao was Sangahnon, it's not that long compares to my fellow lao/thai cousins names. My family and friends just call me Thong. I'm not much of a history buff but i believe our long official names are of khmer and Indian influences.
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Wardrum80
post Dec 31 2007, 08:02 AM
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Holy cow, I'm really enjoying reading all yo replies. biggthumpup.gif

This post has been edited by Wardrum80: Dec 31 2007, 08:03 AM
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Savan
post Jan 2 2008, 02:24 AM
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This post has been edited by Savan: Aug 23 2012, 04:29 AM
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transtic
post Jan 2 2008, 11:09 AM
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QUOTE(aithong @ Dec 17 2007, 10:26 PM) [snapback]3372489[/snapback]
Younger sister is called nongsao in lao/thai also.

My official 1st name in Lao was Sangahnon, it's not that long compares to my fellow lao/thai cousins names. My family and friends just call me Thong. I'm not much of a history buff but i believe our long official names are of khmer and Indian influences.

Although Khmer people don't have long surnames.

Chea, Pen, Sim, Sin, In, Rath, San, Ung, Ong, Ngo, Phan, Chim, Khoeun, Van, Nath, Muy, Meng, Mut, Thong... off the top of my head.
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vietman
post Jan 2 2008, 11:48 AM
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QUOTE(NungTinbao @ Dec 9 2007, 05:39 AM) [snapback]3356872[/snapback]
I have seen that there are so less people who knows about opinions regarding the linguistic, genetic, and cultural relationship to the Yue(越)/Baiyue(百越) and Vietnamese.

I will tell something about Baiyue(百越) to our pi-nong gradually but pls forgive me if my respond is too involved or abstruse, because to learn daic history people will need to learn chinese history to better understand daic populations, and I am not good at English, it is a hard work for me. I can speak so many languages and dialects(6 idioms of Southern Zhuang and 2 idioms of Northern Zhuang, Mandarin, Gui-liu-hua which is a mandarin diaclect in Guangxi, Cantonese and Japanese and a little English) but English is worst to me because I learned it in Chinese middle school and high school only, and I stoped learning English after entering University and changed to learn Japanese as major. I give up using English more than 10 years and started to use it again from several days ago after joining this forum, how can I explain so difficult history questions to you in English, pi-nong? But I will try my best, 55555.

Linguistic researches in recent years has shown that, with general agreement among the field, that Vietnamese (or Kinh) belongs to the Mon-Khmer branch. It is also a common agreement that the "Yue" or “Bai-Yue” belongs to Tai-Kai languages. Bai(百)is hundred, Bai-Yue does not mean hundred Yue Tribes but means Very large Number of Yue Tribes. They are so many braches but their languages culture are all related and similar, they all belong to one language family---Yue.

Why so many western scholars and viet scholars say Vietnamese was from Baiyue or Yue? It was because Vietnamese were under the reign of the Yue people in northern Vietman especially Red River Delta at that time. Also when the ancient Han people from the north reached the Ling-Nan(岭南) region(Guangxi, Guangdong , Hainan and northern Viet at that time) it was impossible for them to have the knowledge what is a Tai langauge and what is a Mon-Khmer language. So it is very possible that they recorded a few words from a Mon-Khmer language in the reign of Yue people and regarded it as the language of Yue people themselves in mistake. Some scholars recommended those record and made many fairy tales that Vietnamese were from Yue. But in fact Baiyue people are all of Tai-Kaidai Languages and were distributed over all areas of south to Yangtze River(From present Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Jiangx, Fujian, Guangdong, Guangxi provinces to Red River Delta of Northern Vietnam). The ancestors of Viet(Kinh) never lived in the area near Yangtze River but they lived in the south part of Yue Region at that time.

In the official record of the Qing Dynasty, there was one mentioning that the King of Annan asked for the title of "Nan Yue King"(南越国王) from the Central Empire. While the official reply from the Central Empire is that "You are not the people of the Yue people, but the people at the south of the Yue people, so it is unsuitable to grant you the name "Nan Yue". Instead "Yue Nan" will be more suitable". So Yue-Nan(Vietnam) became the official name of the country of Kinh from that day. The Chinese have not always been calling the Kinh people Viet. As the frontier of the Sinitic culture pushed farther south and assimilated Daic populations , the word yue was applied to the territory we now consider Vietnam. NamViet is expressed by the two same ideographs used for 南越(Nan-Yue or Nam-Viet), but in reverse order. When translated Vietnam means "SOUTH TO YUE."

The Chinese have not always call Vietnamese as Viet. For a long time, Chinese people used "Jiaozhi" or “Jiao”. Zhuang people still call Vietnamese Geu(Giau), same as Lao, Thai, etc. All Daic populations call Vietnamese GIAO. It's Kinh that is stealing Daic history and claiming the wrong ancestors. The evidence is so clear. It was only since Vietnam was chosen as the country name that some people started to use Viet. Therefore, the name Viet is from the country name Kinh chose, it has nothing to do with ethnic origin. What's more, Viet is the Chinese pronounciation of Yue in Tang Dynasty, Yue population will not call them self as Viet, but Daic of the Han Dynasty pronounciation.

Today Vietnamese still think their ancestor was from the Yue state built from 1913 BC to 334 BC in present Zhejiang Province, or other Baiyue tribes near Yangtze River because they still do not understand the logic of linguistics,anthropology and Genetics. In SEAsia it is quite well-known that Vietnam doesn't have REAL scientific historical linguistic research. You can ask everyone in the annual SE Asia Linguistic Conference. They all know that, although not many of them willing to mention it due to a sense of politness. Vietnam has done many fieldwork researches, which most of them are very good jobs. But it is rather rare to hear Vietnamese linguists to work on historical linguistics which involves a lot of theoritical training.

Every Chinese linguist knows that Southern Chinese dialects have a Daic Substratum, why we do not see the same with Kinh? And every Chinese Linguist says Yue=Daic, its not even a question. In ancient China, the Chinese recorded the languages of Yang Yue, Min Yue, Yu Yue, Nan Yue. All of those languages are Daic. It would be ridiculous to say Yue is not Daic. Daic populations are numbering 25-30 million in southern China, why no Kinh besides the recent about 20 thousand Jing(京族Kinh) people migrants in only one county called Dongxing(东兴) in southern Guangxi border on Vietnam? Can we implying that all Kinh were assimilated but so many Daic still keep their language and culture? The Kinh people were never across North to Vietnam, those stories are myths and folktales.

"越人歌YUE-REN-GE(song of the Yue)" written in a very famous Chinese ancient book“Shuo-Yuan. Feng-Shi-Pian” 《说苑•奉使篇》which telling the story in 528 BC, it was singed by a Yue boatman from Yue state but at the border of Chu State, it is ancient Daic language and can be understood by all Daic scholars till today. Excavation from Liangzhu, and the many other neolithic cultures of China have proven they are also Daic.

The Bai-Yue are Daic people and no one can take that from Daic. That is our ancestors, that is from where we are from and birthed. Our relatives Zhuang, Bouyei, Dong(Kam), Shui(Sui), Mulao, Maonan and Li(Hlai) are still in present Lingnan Region(Guangxi, Guangdong, Hainan) where they have been over thousands of years.


So this is what aithong was talking about Lao being from Luo Yue.

I found some anti-Vietnam sentiment here as in "It's Kinh that is stealing Daic history ... "
I am not very well-versed in China History so I can't speak much here. But I know that there are vietnamese words of Tai origin. From what I learned about Vietnam history is that the country was formed from various tribes in North Vietnam. The Tay/Nung/Thai have been in Vietnam for a very longtime and we always call them brothers.
You claim relationship with Thai/lao but strongly reject Vietnamese. That's OK, we never claim to be that Daic anyway. But let me tell you this. Language and culture practice does not mean blood relation. Look at blacks in America. People learn and adopt other languages throughout history. People have intermarried forever. A lot of Lao and Thai have mixed with Mon-Khmer people. Even the Zhuang people have mixed with the Han a lot. Anyway Geu/Keo is a deragatory term. I hope you avoid using that to address us. As a minority you should know better than using such a word.
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Buddhalove
post Jan 2 2008, 11:55 AM
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NungTinbao is a minority in China, but not Vietnam
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aithong
post Jan 2 2008, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE(vietman @ Jan 2 2008, 12:48 PM) [snapback]3398179[/snapback]
So this is what aithong was talking about Lao being from Luo Yue.

I found some anti-Vietnam sentiment here as in "It's Kinh that is stealing Daic history ... "
I am not very well-versed in China History so I can't speak much here. But I know that there are vietnamese words of Tai origin. From what I learned about Vietnam history is that the country was formed from various tribes in North Vietnam. The Tay/Nung/Thai have been in Vietnam for a very longtime and we always call them brothers.
You claim relationship with Thai/lao but strongly reject Vietnamese. That's OK, we never claim to be that Daic anyway. But let me tell you this. Language and culture practice does not mean blood relation. Look at blacks in America. People learn and adopt other languages throughout history. People have intermarried forever. A lot of Lao and Thai have mixed with Mon-Khmer people. Even the Zhuang people have mixed with the Han a lot. Anyway Geu/Keo is a deragatory term. I hope you avoid using that to address us. As a minority you should know better than using such a word.


I think that originally the Tais have settlements from Lignan all the way north of Hanoi. Possibly alot of them have already mixed and assimilated with the Kihn people over the years. The advancement of the Hans southward into Northern Vietnam may have pushed most of Tais westward into Thailand, Burma and Lao. lao and Thailand are the only countries that Tais can call their own where the Tai language and culture are still the dominant culture even after so many centuries away from their original homeland. . Maybe that's why Zhuangs can claim stronger relationship us more.
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Savan
post Jan 2 2008, 07:56 PM
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This post has been edited by Savan: Aug 23 2012, 04:29 AM
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vietpower
post Jan 2 2008, 10:35 PM
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This post has been edited by vietpower: Jan 4 2008, 03:49 AM
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vietman
post Jan 4 2008, 11:07 AM
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QUOTE(Savan @ Jan 2 2008, 08:56 PM) [snapback]3398835[/snapback]
"Keo" (Vietnamese) is a derogatory term? Are you sure?


We never refer to ourselves as Keo/Geu. We always call ourselves Viet. We have a nickname for Lao too. We used to call you guys Le`o. It sounds more like "broth" in vietnamese. Keo/Geu came from the name Giao-Chi longtime ago. North Vietnam was comprised of Giao-Chi, Cuu-Chan, and Nhat-Nam regions. You don't have to go by the old outdated terms that the ancient Chinese gave other peoples they came in contact with. We don't want to be called Keo, Yuan, Youn, etc. We are Viet and have been Viet forever. I don't care what old chinese text used to call us. They called other people barbarians, except them Han. Zhuang used to be called barbaric in old Chinese characters. Recently China recognized them and call then Zhuang as in Xiong zhuang.
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aithong
post Jan 4 2008, 01:20 PM
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Leo doesnt sound like an offensive name to us, just dont call us Thai, ok. icon_smile.gif
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