How old is Chinese civilization?, and what are your criteria? Options

[DaMo]

This will depend on how you define "civilization". Needless to say, clothing, tools and fire are fundamental. Some strict definitions call for the development of a formal system of written language. Some call for a consistent symbology. Domestication and agriculture is usually a requirement. Settled or semi-settled living is definitely a requirement. Cities especially are a plus. Political organization beyond the extended family is also considered a necessity, and to some extent, so is sense of nationhood, and a legal system. Sometimes, reasonably advanced arts and sciences are considered.

Symbologies have been found as far back as 6600 BC (Peiligang, Jiahu), 6000 BC (Dadiwan, Gansu), 4000 BC (Banpo, Xian) and 2800 BC (Dawenkou, Shandong), many symbols of which resemble characters of the later formalized writing system of China.

Settled village dwellings have been around since early Neolithic times, around 7000 BC (Peiligang, and later, Cishan and Dadiwan) or so, and so has agriculture and animal domestication (Pengtoushan 6400 BC - first rice culture; Peiligang 5800 BC - first millet culture; Zengpiyan 8300 BC - earliest animal husbandry). A city complex was excavated in the eastern province of Anhui dating back to 3500 BC, making it the oldest known Chinese city, after the 3000 BC Dadiwan city structures.

We do not know much about political organization and legal systems before the advent of writing, but one can assume that it ought to date back to at least the time of the first city, 3500 BC. Nationhood was probably around then, or at least around the time of the Xia, although that isn't really too important.

The Chinese have plenty of artistic records, though. A painting dug up in Dadiwan, dating back to around 2000 BC, is the oldest discovered Chinese painting. Also, pottery has been painted artistically in China since the Banpo and Dawenkou cultures (about 4200 BC). Examples of fine sculpture in jade, clay and stone have been uncovered dating to Hongshan and Liangzhu cultures (about 3500 BC), preceded by relatively more primitive specimens. Flutes from Jiahu dating back to around 7000 BC had 5 to 8 holes and were made taking into account scale and temperament. Xun, whistles, flutes, qing and drums have been dated to Neolithic times. Technology was also on par with the more advanced portions of the rest of the world during the Neolithic and for a long time after.

So, depending on how strictly you define civilization, you could say that China was civilized as far back as 3700, 4200, 5500, 6200, or 8600 years ago.

This seems to be a matter of much importance to the Chinese people. I've noticed many diverse opinions on this subject, both popular and academic, and I want to see what the most common opinion is among AF members. So how old do you think is Chinese civilization, and what are your criteria for making that choice?

[Kulong]

Another thing to take into account is whether the relations between the ancient cultures such as Dadiwan, Cishan, Peiligang, and Hemudu and later Chinese dynasties are relevant.

For example, I'm under the impression that the older dynasties like Xia and Shang are somewhat different from Zhou, Warring States, and Qin. Then there is Han and all the other dynasties that follows it until Yuan, Ming, and Qing.

However, all of these dynasties are similar enough to be combined into one group when compared to the ancient cultures mentioned above.

I personally would say the Chinese civilization started in Xia/Shang/Zhou. However, I accidentlly voted for the ancient cultures for I misinterpreted the question at first and I can't seem to change my vote (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_confused.gif)

This post has been edited by Kulong: Feb 13 2004, 04:53 PM

[Cevilgenius]

All I know is that it's old.


-Norm

[SakuraSkater]

let's hope we don't get a vietnamese supremist in here.. they'd probably say something like "haha china is old enough to grow mold and chinese people are the fungi"

but anyways..i chose the second option..it seems the most logical to me

[tongbao_vince]

I voted Banpo.

To me, a civilization must have a permanent settlement (no more nomadic neolithic lifestyle), the appearance of a government, laws, an economy for the society, birth of skille dtrades people and artists, agriculture (which is tied to permanent settlement), a form a defence for the entire society and trade routes to various other societies.

In my opinion, Banpo's time fits the era when 'Civilization' began because all of the criteria I mentioned was met.

:genius:

[DaMo]

I voted Banpo.

To me, a civilization must have a permanent settlement (no more nomadic neolithic lifestyle), the appearance of a government, laws, an economy for the society, birth of skille dtrades people and artists, agriculture (which is tied to permanent settlement), a form a defence for the entire society and trade routes to various other societies.

In my opinion, Banpo's time fits the era when 'Civilization' began because all of the criteria I mentioned was met.

:genius:

Hmm, I wasn't aware that Yangshao/Banpo/Dawenkou cultures had formal laws or a central government.

[Kambolizhuz]

What I learn is that a civilizatio must have cities and surplus of foods for ppl to have specialization of labor, instead of everyone farming. I don't know much but it one of the great civilization in world but there a few that older than the Chinese one. But I also know that the Indus Valley and the Chinese civilization is the oldest ASIAN civilization.

[tongbao_vince]

Hmm, I wasn't aware that Yangshao/Banpo/Dawenkou cultures had formal laws or a central government.

The appearance of a government and laws.. I didn't really mean a centralized government with written laws but more of a group of peole that preform the duties of a government and there are laws in the society.. not neccessarily written down.

[Ek-ek]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) In history books they put it at around 5,000 years

But if you will analyze carefully
Civilization of China could be at around 9,000-10,000 years from the early people that was excavated.

Summerians, Egyptians and Isrealites might be much older .

[KaeSaeKee]

>.>

This post has been edited by Jaimu-Jaimu: Sep 1 2007, 03:24 AM