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1421, The Year China Discovered America
chynagongju
post Feb 20 2004, 11:06 PM
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Thoughts? I COULD provide evidence, but I'm tired....I'll do it later...it's also a book. Anyone read it? Besides me and Kulong?
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DaMo
post Feb 28 2004, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 25 2004, 10:31 AM)
It is a fact that Admiral Zheng He recruited mostly Moslem pilots and navigators in China for the trips, those who had already known the way to the West since they were part of the Arab trade network spreading from the Middle East to Southeast Asia.  The Arabs were purveyors of Chinese porcelain, silk and most importantly spices-nutmegs, cinnamon and pepper- to the Europeans and were growing rich rapidly.  They had an economic interest to protect.  It is very likely that they tried to keep the sources secret, preventing both Chinese suppliers and European consumers from meeting up.

Muslims are not all Arabs. And don't forget that there were also non-Muslim Chinese admirals and officers leading the fleet. China made direct contact with many other nations through the Treasure Fleet. Emissaries and even heads of state were brought to China. There is nothing to suggest that the fleet was holding back from exploration in any way. All the opposition to further exploration came from the partisan officials back in the Imperial capital, not the admiralty. You are painting plain facts of history as circumstantial evidence of some kind of shadowy Arab control over the Treasure Fleet.

QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 25 2004, 10:31 AM)
With regards to blaming conservative elements within the Chinese Court at the time for the close door policy, I would have to dispute that as well.  There are a lot of evidences that the Emperor was running out of money.  The construction cost of Yang jing, the rebellion in Annam, the reemerging threat of the Mongols and other pursuits all contributed to the draining of the Imperial coffer. Something just gotta give and long term investments and big-ticket items like the Admiral's navy naturally had to be on the chopping block.

I have no doubt that money played some role in the cancellation of the Treasure Fleet. When you have money to burn, a lot of things can be justified.

But considering how building a trade network around the expeditions (one backed by the might of the Chinese navy, who had already intervened militarily during the expeditions) could have made China wealthier, money should have been a motivation to keep the voyages going. Why didn't the Chinese take advantage of the knowledge they had gained through the expeditions to create new and more accessible markets for Chinese goods? If not through imperially funded expeditions, then at least through the initiative of private traders and entreprenuers?

Do dwindling funds explain why the Ming not only scrapped the voyages, but banned virtually all blue water sailing and even private foreign trade? Or the methodical and near-complete destruction of the records of the Treasure Fleet voyages? I think not.

There were clearly much bigger motivations at work here than simply financial considerations. It is widely accepted that it was mainly the conservative lobby in China who made very concerted and deliberate efforts to end the voyages and wipe out their memory from the pages of history. And since I have not come across any satisfactory answers to the above questions, I have to agree in concluding that this and not dwindling coffers was by far mainly responsible for China's sudden drive towards isolation.
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- chynagongju   1421   Feb 20 2004, 11:06 PM
- - CTangCG5   Never read it. Do you recommend it? And why?   Feb 20 2004, 11:10 PM
- - Ogumo   Why doesnt china get credit for finding america? E...   Feb 20 2004, 11:50 PM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (Ogumo @ Feb 20 2004, 11:50 PM)Why does...   Feb 20 2004, 11:51 PM
- - chynagongju   I definitely recommend it. It gives all the eviden...   Feb 21 2004, 12:01 AM
- - supernovasp   no hardcore evidences... most of them are just gu...   Feb 21 2004, 12:05 AM
- - karl kani   china discovered america in 1421????????????lol I...   Feb 21 2004, 12:06 AM
- - tongbao_vince   http://www.1421.tv The author uses reference to a...   Feb 21 2004, 02:32 AM
- - Byron   Is there any written documents by the Chinese abou...   Feb 21 2004, 09:19 AM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (Byron @ Feb 21 2004, 09:19 AM)Is there...   Feb 21 2004, 10:15 AM
- - chynagongju   The Chinese also discovered Australia first. Ther...   Feb 21 2004, 11:18 AM
- - tongbao_vince   Still.. It will be a long time before countries st...   Feb 21 2004, 12:14 PM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (tongbao_vince @ Feb 21 2004, 12:14 PM)...   Feb 21 2004, 12:22 PM
- - DAI_VIET   Seen it, and read some of it. Check out Barnes and...   Feb 21 2004, 02:39 PM
- - SiLvErStArDuSt   Hm. Ima go buy this book. Seems interesting, but...   Feb 21 2004, 03:08 PM
- - chynagongju   Hmmm...lemme see...without the postscript or the a...   Feb 21 2004, 03:20 PM
- - SiLvErStArDuSt   Oh yeah, and another thing. It's in English, ...   Feb 21 2004, 03:24 PM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (chynagongju @ Feb 21 2004, 03:20 PM)Th...   Feb 21 2004, 03:30 PM
- - chynagongju   Damn those White supremacists... Let's change...   Feb 21 2004, 03:38 PM
- - xAzN_KiDx   cool china found america??? lol i never knew that....   Feb 21 2004, 03:48 PM
- - Cevilgenius   Never heard of it. And if China did discover Amer...   Feb 21 2004, 03:51 PM
- - chynagongju   Because all the documents of Chinese exploration w...   Feb 21 2004, 03:55 PM
- - SiLvErStArDuSt   Dargggh. Nobody gets the credit they desearve. N...   Feb 21 2004, 03:59 PM
- - DaMo   I'm going to file this in my 'special fold...   Feb 21 2004, 04:13 PM
- - Cevilgenius   QUOTE (SiLvErStArDuSt @ Feb 21 2004, 04:59 PM...   Feb 21 2004, 05:04 PM
- - xAzN_KiDx   hey jess can you tell me about the 3 indian tribes...   Feb 21 2004, 08:11 PM
- - chynagongju   Well...I'm not too sure on the three Indian tr...   Feb 22 2004, 12:13 PM
- - xAzN_KiDx   oooo k thnx jess   Feb 22 2004, 12:26 PM
- - tongbao_vince   Yeah the definition of 'discovery' is very...   Feb 22 2004, 01:50 PM
- - xiong   No one should be credited for decovering america e...   Feb 22 2004, 07:48 PM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (xiong @ Feb 22 2004, 07:48 PM)No one s...   Feb 22 2004, 07:51 PM
- - SiLvErStArDuSt   Sure, but when have the Natives of anywhere gotten...   Feb 22 2004, 08:13 PM
- - tongbao_vince   QUOTE No one should be credited for decovering ame...   Feb 22 2004, 08:24 PM
- - Doan Du   Would it change anything at all if Admiral Zheng H...   Feb 23 2004, 09:05 AM
- - tongbao_vince   He wasn't a Han. I think he was a muslim eunic...   Feb 23 2004, 09:16 AM
- - Doan Du   I know that, Vince. That's why I asked the qu...   Feb 23 2004, 09:22 AM
- - Kulong   So why would it change anything?   Feb 23 2004, 10:11 AM
- - DaMo   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 10:22 AM)He was...   Feb 23 2004, 10:12 AM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (DaMo @ Feb 23 2004, 11:12 AM)QUOTE (Do...   Feb 23 2004, 10:32 AM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 23 2004, 11:11 AM)So why ...   Feb 23 2004, 10:44 AM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 10:32 AM)QUOTE ...   Feb 23 2004, 10:46 AM
- - DaMo   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 11:32 AM)QUOTE ...   Feb 23 2004, 10:59 AM
- - DaMo   QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 23 2004, 11:46 AM)Oh lord...   Feb 23 2004, 11:15 AM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (DaMo @ Feb 23 2004, 11:15 AM)QUOTE (Ku...   Feb 23 2004, 11:22 AM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 23 2004, 11:46 AM)QUOTE (...   Feb 23 2004, 11:40 AM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 11:40 AM)During...   Feb 23 2004, 11:44 AM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (DaMo @ Feb 23 2004, 12:15 PM)Don't...   Feb 23 2004, 11:48 AM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 23 2004, 12:44 PM)If you ...   Feb 23 2004, 12:02 PM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 12:02 PM)Who is...   Feb 23 2004, 12:05 PM
- - DaMo   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 12:40 PM)Young ...   Feb 23 2004, 12:08 PM
- - DaMo   QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 23 2004, 01:05 PM)I suppo...   Feb 23 2004, 12:12 PM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (DaMo @ Feb 23 2004, 11:59 AM)You don...   Feb 23 2004, 12:36 PM
- - DaMo   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 12:48 PM)Furthe...   Feb 23 2004, 12:40 PM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 23 2004, 01:05 PM)You are...   Feb 23 2004, 12:58 PM
- - DaMo   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 01:36 PM)My und...   Feb 23 2004, 01:03 PM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (DaMo @ Feb 23 2004, 01:40 PM)QUOTE (Do...   Feb 23 2004, 01:20 PM
- - Kulong   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 12:58 PM)QUOTE ...   Feb 23 2004, 01:51 PM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (Kulong @ Feb 23 2004, 02:51 PM)Whether...   Feb 23 2004, 02:26 PM
- - chynagongju   Hmm okay. Interesting discussion, but just for you...   Feb 23 2004, 05:42 PM
- - DaMo   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 23 2004, 02:20 PM)We kno...   Feb 24 2004, 04:08 PM
- - Doan Du   QUOTE (DaMo @ Feb 24 2004, 05:08 PM)QUOTE (Do...   Feb 25 2004, 10:31 AM
- - DaMo   QUOTE (Doan Du @ Feb 25 2004, 10:31 AM)It is ...   Feb 28 2004, 05:25 PM


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