WHO IS A MALAY ETHNICITY?, DEFINTION Options

[malay_ako]

HTTP://MEMBERS.ASIANAVENUE.COM/PNOI_LYK_HOI

THERE IS ONLY ONE MALAY ETHNICITY WHO ULTIMATELY ORIGINATE ON THE ISLAND OF TAIWAN, THE BIRTH PLACE OF THE MALAY ETHNCIITY AND OUR NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE/LANGUAGE. OUR MALAY ANCESTORS EVENTUALLY SPREAD OUT, WE ORIGINALLY HAD ONE NATIVE CULTURE AND LANGUAGE CALLED AUSTRONESIAN, BUT AS A RESULT OF SPREADING OUT OVER THE VAST PACIFIC AND INDIAN OCEANS WE BECAME INFLUENCED BY FOREIGN CULTURES SUCH AS INDIAN, BUDDHIST, ISLAM, AND CHRISTIANITY.

THE MALAYS INFLUENCED BY HINDU WERE THE GREAT CHAMPA OF PRESENT DAY VIETNAM, THE EARLY JAVANESE KINGDOMS, (AND SOME OTHERS) BUT NOW, PRESENT DAY BALI IS THE ONLY SURVIVING HINDU CULTURE OF THE MALAY.

THE MALAYS INFLUENCED BY BUDDHISM WAS THE MALAYS OF THE SAILENDRA KINGDOM OF JAVA (AND SOME OTHERS) AND THE SRIVIJAYA KINGDOM WHICH WAS IN SUMATRA ISLAND. BUT THEY EVENTUALLY COLLASPED AND THE CITIZENS FLED TO THE CENTRAL ISLANDS OF THE PHILIPPINES WHICH TODAY IS KNOWN AS THE "VISAYAN" REGION.

ISLAMIC MALAYS CONSTITUTE THE MAJOIRTY OF MALAYS TODAY. BUT THE CONVERSION TO ISLAM HAPPENED ONLY RECENTLY AROUND THE LATE 15TH CENTURY AS A RESULT OF MUSLIM INDIAN TRADERS WHO PUERSUADED US TO BECOME MUSLIM AND EVENTUALLY MOST MALAY DID BECAUSE IT BECAME SO "POPULAR." UNFORTUNATELY ALL THE PAST KINGDOMS OF THE MALAY ARCHIPELAGO HAVE BEEN FORGOTTEN. BUT OUR EARLY TEMPLES STILL STAND SUCH AS THOSE OF CHAMPA, BOROBUDUR, PRAMBANAN, AND OTHERS AND REMIND US OF OUR GREAT PAST EMPIRES THAT RIVALED EVEN THOSE OF CAMBODIA.

THE MALAYS INFLUENCED BY CHRSITIANITY ARE MAINLY THOSE OF THE PHILIPIPNE ISLANDS. THIS IS BECAUSE THE SPANIARDS SAILED TO OUR ISLANDS AROUND 1521 AND BEGAN TO CONQUER US AND FORCE US TO PRACTICE SPANISH CULTURE AND WESTERN RELIGION. AND SO TODAY THE MAJOIRTY OF THE MALAYS OF THE PHILIPPINES ARE CHRISTIAN. BUT THERE ARE SOME UNCONQUERABLE TRIBES SUCH AS THE IGOROT OF LUZON ISLAND, AND THE LUMAD OF MINDANAO ISLAND, AND EVEN THE MUSLIM MORO OF THE SULU ARCHIPELAGO. THEY HAVE SURVIVED THE ATTEMPTED SPANISH COLONIZATION OF THE SPANIARDS, AND EVEN THE ATTEMPTS OF AMERICAN COLONISTS. THEY HAVE FOUGHT FOR 500+ YEARS AND HAVE NEVER LOST THEIR ANCESTRAL LANDS OR PRE-COLONIAL CULTURES. BUT UNFORTUNATELY, TODAY THEY CONSTITUTE ONLY THE MINORITY OF THE PHILIPPINE ISLANDS AS ONLY A SMALL FEW OF MALAYS OF THE PHILIPPINES WERE SUCCESSFUL IN BEING UNCONQUERED, WHEREAS THE MAJOIRTY OF MALAY OF THE PHILIPPINES WERE CONQUERED AND EVENTUALLY ADOPTED SPANISH CULTURE AND CHRISTIAN RELIGION WHICH IS MERELY MIXED WITH PRE-COLONIAL AUSTRONESIAN ROOT CULTRUE AND AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGE.

BUT THE UNCONQUERED MALAY OF THE PHILIPPINES REMIND US TO OUR GREAT LINK TO OTHER MALAYS ON OTHER ISLANDS OUTSIDE THE PHILIPPINES. AND THEY REMIND US THAT WE ARE ALL LINKED AS 1 MALAY ETHNCIITY, AND OUR LANGUAGES, NO MATTER WHAT ISLAND YOUR ON, FROM MADAGASCAR TO EASTER ISLAND IS RELATED AND THE SAME, AND OUR NATIVE* CULTURE CALLED AUSTRONESIAN IS THE SAME, AND THESE THINGS STILL EXIST TO THIS DAY ONLY FOREIGN THINGS HAVE INFLUENCED THEM.


BUT THERE WERE ALSO OTHER MALAYS WHO WERE SPARED FOREIGN INFLUENCE AND THEY WERE THE ONES WHO LEFT FROM THE PHILIPPINES AND THE HOMELAND OF THE MALAY ARCHIPELAGO. AND THEY WERE THE MALAYS WHO SAILED FAR INTO THE EAST OF THE PACIFIC OCEAN AND EVENTUALLY BECAME THE "POLYNESIAN" AFTER THEY MIXED WITH THE PAPUAN PEOPLE THEY FOUND ALREADY INHABITING THE REGIOIN. BUT STILL THE MALAY PEOPLE PRESERVERED AND CONTINUE TO PRACTICE A NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE, AND SPEAK THE NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGE TO THIS DAY. AND THEY WERE ABLE TO FORM GREAT ISLAND KINGDOMS SUCH AS THE KINGDOM OF TONGA AND THE KINGDOM OF HAWAII.. THEY ARE WHAT WE USED TO BE. BECAUSE THEY COME FROM US. AND THEY WERE NOT INFLUENCED FOR SO LONG.

AND SOME MALAY SAILED WEST FROM THE SULU OF THE PHILIPINES, AND BORNEO IN ANCIENT TIMES, AND THEY LANDED ON THE ISLAND OF MADAGASCAR AND THEY, TOO, WERE UNINFLUENCED FOR SO LONG AND SPEAK THE NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGE AND PRACTICE THE NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE. THEY TOO FORMED GREAT KINGDOMS, SUCH AS THE KINGDOM OF IMERINA WHICH UNIFIED THE WHOLE ISLAND UNDER ONE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE AND ONE AUSTRONESIAN LANGUAGE CALLED "MALAGASY." SO EVEN IF THE ISLAND IS FOUND IN THE AFRICAN REGION, THE PEOPLE AND THE CULTURE IS OF ASIAN DESCENT. ONLY HAS THE IMMIGRATION OF AFRICAN PEOPLE DIVERSIFED IT.

ONE OF THE GREATEST NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTUREL PRACTICES THAT SURVIED TO THIS DAY IS OUR MATRIARCHIAL SOCIETIES AND OUR RESPECT TO WOMEN AS WE LOOK AT WOMEN AS CLOSE TO GODLINESS AND GIVE THEM FREEDOM IN OUR MALAY SOCIETY, EQUAL STATUS, AND SOMETIMES EVEN GREATER THAN THE MAN'S. YOU CAN SEE THIS TODAY AS THERE HAVE BEEN MANY WOMEN PRESIDENTS IN THE PHILIPPINES. AND THE PHILIPPINE'S HAS HAD THE GREATEST WOMEN'S SUFFERAGE THAN MOST COUNTRIES OUTSIDE THE MALAY WORLD.

ALSO, THE MATRIARCHIAL CUSTOMS OF THE NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE SURVIVE TO THIS DAY FOUND IN THE MINANGKABAU TRIBE OF INDONESIA. THEY ARE THE LARGEST MATRIARCHIAL TRIBE OF THE WORLD, WHERE WOMEN RULE, OWN PROPERTY, MAKE LAWS, AND HAVE THE POWER IN MARRIAGE. BUT THEY ARE ALSO MUSLIM PEOPLE. SO IT SHOWS THAT THE MALAY HAS REDEFINED WHAT ISLAM SHOULD BE. THE ISLAM OF THE MALAY IS NOT THE SAME AS THE ISLAM OF THE ARAB IN THE MIDLEEAST. AND IT IS BEAUTIFUL. BECAUSE OUR NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN CULTURE, PRE-ISLAMIC BUDDHIST, AND HINDU CULTURE HAS MADE IT BEAUTIFUL. AND TO MUSLIM FUNDALMENTALISTS AND RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS... IT IS NOT WRONG, IT IS PRESERVATION OF OUR MALAY HERITAGE!!!!!! AND WE DO NOT DESIRE TO TURN OUR BACK ON OUR NATIVE AUSTRONESIAN AND PRE-ISLAMIC HINDU/BUDDHIST CULTURES AND TRADITIONS!!!!

[Menikani]

I think you meant to post this in the Malaysian or Indonesian forum. I think you got the wrong forum, because this is a Cambodian/Khmer Chat and they are not Malays.

[Doan Du]

Would you say that Vietnamese were Malays who were sinicized to a certain degree?

[malay_ako]

Would you say that Vietnamese were Malays who were sinicized to a certain degree?

no, the Vietnamese ethnicity originated in the Northern Vietnam area, they were a vassal state of China who gained their own independence, and formed their own kingdom and eventually they migrated into the Southeast Asian region to expand their kingdom and acquire new territory. The land of present day central Vietnamese coast had always been ancestral territory of the Kingdom of Champa (land of the Chams who are of the Malay Ethnicity).

Vietnamese eventually conquered the Champa kingdom (Khmer attacks also helped destroy Champa, but they would pay for that in the end because the Vietnamese would eventually get possession of Khmer Krom without Champa as a buffer state between Vietnam and Cambodia to limit Vietnamese mass migration and displacement of the khmer in Khmer Krom, this is their “bad karma.”)

But anyway, the Vietnamese took over the land of the Champa and displaced the Cham people. Vietnamese are NOT Malay people, they are merely the conquerors of the Cham Malays. The Vietnamese are invaders who speak a totally different language, Cham Malays speak an Austronesian language. And the Vietnamese have a different culture which is heavily influenced by China. The Cham Malays have a Native Austronesian culture mixed with Hinduism & Islam.

The only link the Vietnamese Ethnicity has to the Cham Malays is the Central Coast which the Vietnamese have the legal “deed” to. The Vietnamese have legal procession of Ancestral Cham Malay territory and the other link the Vietnamese have to Malay is the presence of the Cham Malay Minority of Vietnam who still choose to live in their ancestral lands. I believe some Chams are currently fighting to retake their land in a freedom movement.

http://flagspot.net/flags/vn-aspir.html#chams

some khmer are also fighting for khmer krom freedom movement.

Vietnamese did not “sinicize,” the Cham Malays were the ones who had to accommodate to Vietnamese dominance,.

ps: are you vietnamese?

[tqt]

The Malaysian and the Cham are relatives of the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese language shares about 150 basic words with the Cham and the Malaysian language. Remember, basic words can't be borrowed.

The Khmer are also relative of the Vietnamese. The Khmer and the Vietnamese languages share a lot of common basic words but the closest relative of the Vietnamese is the Muong people. The Muong and the Vietnamese languages share about 75% of the basic vocabs.

This post has been edited by tqt: Feb 26 2004, 06:15 PM

[Kambolizhuz]

The Malaysian and the Cham are relatives of the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese language shares about 150 basic words with the Cham and the Malaysian language. Remember, basic words can't be borrowed.

I agree with malay_ako, I don't think they are related because Vietnam is in southeast Asia in the 14th century and language can change like the Vietnamese alphabets were more like the CHinese before it wasn't always romanized. An Cham don't really look like Vietnamese, I read that they are more likely to taller, darker, and with shaper features, like straight nose, and etc.

[angkorwat19]

I got a feeling this malay_ako guy really hates khmer people...

Vietnamese eventually conquered the Champa kingdom (Khmer attacks also helped destroy Champa, but they would pay for that in the end because the Vietnamese would eventually get possession of Khmer Krom without Champa as a buffer state between Vietnam and Cambodia to limit Vietnamese mass migration and displacement of the khmer in Khmer Krom, this is their “bad karma.”)

dude, listen to what you're saying... bad karma?, who gave asylum to the chams when vietnamese military were taking over? throughout the 14th to 17th century, the chams were given refuge by the khmer kings. now, the khmer and cham people live side by side peacefully, cambodians even gave chams their own province call Kompong Cham. rethink your statement and stop being so damn hypocritical... you idiot, "your people" filipino malays had nothing to do with the chams. during the time of war with vietnamese,khmers and chams, the filipinos were being assimilated into spanish culture so stop putting up non sense of how "your people" when "your people" had nothing to do with the chams in MAINLAND SEASIA. kampuchea krom was given to the vietnamese without a written consent, so in othe words they were given to them illegally. i'm pissed to hear you say about that karma thing when these khmers had nothing to do with the fall of CHAMPA. YOU NEED A REALITY CHECK!!

This post has been edited by angkorwat19: Feb 26 2004, 07:22 PM

[Doan Du]

Would you say that Vietnamese were Malays who were sinicized to a certain degree?

no, the Vietnamese ethnicity originated in the Northern Vietnam area, they were a vassal state of China who gained their own independence, and formed their own kingdom and eventually they migrated into the Southeast Asian region to expand their kingdom and acquire new territory. The land of present day central Vietnamese coast had always been ancestral territory of the Kingdom of Champa (land of the Chams who are of the Malay Ethnicity).

Vietnamese eventually conquered the Champa kingdom (Khmer attacks also helped destroy Champa, but they would pay for that in the end because the Vietnamese would eventually get possession of Khmer Krom without Champa as a buffer state between Vietnam and Cambodia to limit Vietnamese mass migration and displacement of the khmer in Khmer Krom, this is their “bad karma.”)

But anyway, the Vietnamese took over the land of the Champa and displaced the Cham people. Vietnamese are NOT Malay people, they are merely the conquerors of the Cham Malays. The Vietnamese are invaders who speak a totally different language, Cham Malays speak an Austronesian language. And the Vietnamese have a different culture which is heavily influenced by China. The Cham Malays have a Native Austronesian culture mixed with Hinduism & Islam.

The only link the Vietnamese Ethnicity has to the Cham Malays is the Central Coast which the Vietnamese have the legal “deed” to. The Vietnamese have legal procession of Ancestral Cham Malay territory and the other link the Vietnamese have to Malay is the presence of the Cham Malay Minority of Vietnam who still choose to live in their ancestral lands. I believe some Chams are currently fighting to retake their land in a freedom movement.

http://flagspot.net/flags/vn-aspir.html#chams

some khmer are also fighting for khmer krom freedom movement.

Vietnamese did not “sinicize,” the Cham Malays were the ones who had to accommodate to Vietnamese dominance,.

ps: are you vietnamese?

Yes, I am a Viet.

I was referring to the Malay race who migrated out of the Tibetan Plateau and populated what is now Southern China and Indochina. The Han came much later to colonize the area.

The Vietnamese together with the Koreans and Japanese share many Malay characteristics such as wearing wooden sabots, sitting on the floor and growing wet rice.

Vietnamese vocabulary contains many Malay words (tanga or thang, songa or song, bonga or bong), Vietnamese folklores contain many old Malay tales (the bull and the calf), and old Vietnamese society was matrilineal (our women were the first to rise up against Han colonists).

Many people from Central Vietnam as well as those in nearby Laos even have the bamboo dance similar to the one in the Philippines.

This post has been edited by Doan Du: Feb 28 2004, 11:24 AM

[malay_ako]

I got a feeling this malay_ako guy really hates khmer people...

dude, listen to what you're saying... bad karma?, who gave asylum to the chams when vietnamese military were taking over? throughout the 14th to 17th century, the chams were given refuge by the khmer kings. now, the khmer and cham people live side by side peacefully, cambodians even gave chams their own province call Kompong Cham. rethink your statement and stop being so damn hypocritical...

you know what angkorwat19? half the things i written on here are direct quote or rewritten statements of what other people have said. Im guessing your on khmerconnection forums right? well do you remember in the "History of Nokore Phnom (Funan ) Kampuchea" disscussion where KhmerCasanova said:

"There is a lot of problems with Funan. From a historical view there is as lot problems to prove that they were Khmer because the first inscription found in Khmer is dated to 611. Many historian view Funan as pre Khmer kingdom."

"Khmer fought many wars with Champa and our ancestor help the Viets destroy that country. Khmer attack one side and the Vietnamese from the other. So I guess it`s our Karma because if Champa was still here it will serve as a buffer state between Srok Khmer and Vietnam."

so dont be angry with me, it is not even origianlly my statement, it was the words of your own khmer brother who is not baised and think too good of himself to acknowledge his own people's wrongdoings, do you honestly beleive your khmer ethnicity is perfect and never made any atrocities?

[Kambolizhuz]

Would you say that Vietnamese were Malays who were sinicized to a certain degree?

no, the Vietnamese ethnicity originated in the Northern Vietnam area, they were a vassal state of China who gained their own independence, and formed their own kingdom and eventually they migrated into the Southeast Asian region to expand their kingdom and acquire new territory. The land of present day central Vietnamese coast had always been ancestral territory of the Kingdom of Champa (land of the Chams who are of the Malay Ethnicity).

Vietnamese eventually conquered the Champa kingdom (Khmer attacks also helped destroy Champa, but they would pay for that in the end because the Vietnamese would eventually get possession of Khmer Krom without Champa as a buffer state between Vietnam and Cambodia to limit Vietnamese mass migration and displacement of the khmer in Khmer Krom, this is their “bad karma.”)

But anyway, the Vietnamese took over the land of the Champa and displaced the Cham people. Vietnamese are NOT Malay people, they are merely the conquerors of the Cham Malays. The Vietnamese are invaders who speak a totally different language, Cham Malays speak an Austronesian language. And the Vietnamese have a different culture which is heavily influenced by China. The Cham Malays have a Native Austronesian culture mixed with Hinduism & Islam.

The only link the Vietnamese Ethnicity has to the Cham Malays is the Central Coast which the Vietnamese have the legal “deed” to. The Vietnamese have legal procession of Ancestral Cham Malay territory and the other link the Vietnamese have to Malay is the presence of the Cham Malay Minority of Vietnam who still choose to live in their ancestral lands. I believe some Chams are currently fighting to retake their land in a freedom movement.

http://flagspot.net/flags/vn-aspir.html#chams

some khmer are also fighting for khmer krom freedom movement.

Vietnamese did not “sinicize,” the Cham Malays were the ones who had to accommodate to Vietnamese dominance,.

ps: are you vietnamese?

Yes, I am a Viet.

I was referring to the Malay race who migrated out of the Tibetan Plateau and populated what is now Southern China and Indochina. The Han came much later to colonize the area.

The Vietnamese together with the Koreans and Japanese share many Malay characteristics such as wearing wooden sabots, sitting on the floor and growing wet rice.

Vietnamese vocabulary contains many Malay words (tanga or thang, songa or song, bonga or bong), Vietnamese folklores contain many old Malay tales (the bull and the calf), and old Vietnamese society are matrilineal (our women were the first to rise up against Han colonists).

Many people from Central Vietnam as well as those in nearby Laos even have the bamboo dance similar to the one in the Philippines.

I am not saying this as a fact but those ppl you are describing esp. in central Asia, sound like the Cham to me. Do they follow the religion Islam?

[Kambolizhuz]

I didn't mean Central Asia, I meant central Vietnam. You know north Vietnam used to belong to Champa? So that might explain why the Cham are in central Vietnam, probably the communist drove them down there.

[malay_ako]

Yes, I am a Viet.

I was referring to the Malay race who migrated out of the Tibetan Plateau and populated what is now Southern China and Indochina.  The Han came much later to colonize the area.

The Vietnamese together with the Koreans and Japanese share many Malay characteristics such as wearing wooden sabots, sitting on the floor and growing wet rice.

Vietnamese vocabulary contains many Malay words (tanga or thang, songa or song, bonga or bong), Vietnamese folklores contain many old Malay tales (the bull and the calf), and old Vietnamese society are matrilineal (our women were the first to rise up against Han colonists).

Many people from Central Vietnam as well as those in nearby Laos even have the bamboo dance similar to the one in the Philippines.

What malay was that who came to southern china from tibet? Are you refering to the Nagas of Nagaland?

i didnt know much about the relationship of the Vietnamese with the Malays. I guess you claim brotherhood with us malay if you wish. but there is more to being a Malay then having a few similiarities with our Native Austronesian culture. Besides Vietnamese have their own history that i think most viets rather claim then say they are distant descendants of Malay. but there is nothing wrong with showing relationship and how we influence each other in the past, because we will learn that we are friends and not enemies (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

i will jsut tell you an intersting fact:


Some linguists believe the Tai languages probably deserve a place within an expanded version of [the Austronesian languge family], though others favor the Sino-Tibetan family to include them.

The languages of the Tai family are found in Southeast Asia. Britannica claims this language family was formerly considered to be part of the Sino-Tibetan languages, but that most of the similarities are incidental and that the relationship appears to be false. It also mentions suggestions that the Tai are closer to the Austronesian languages.


south-western group
Thai or Siamese (Thailand)
Lao or Laotian (Laos, Thailand)
Shan language (Burma)
Yuan language (Thailand)

central and northern groups (China)
Nung
Tho
Kam-Sui group
Kadai group (China, Yunnan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_languages

This post has been edited by malay_ako: Feb 26 2004, 10:38 PM

[malay_ako]

want to learn another intersting factiod? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

"The Mongols, Koreans, and Japanese speak languages that belongs to the Altaic language group."

There is speculation whether the Japanese Language should be cateogrized as part of the Altaic language family:

Japanese vocabulary seems to contain many elements of Malayo-Polynesian or Austronesian (a proto-language for which we have no records). Research began in this area with the important paper by Matsumoto Nobuhiro in 1928 on "Le Japonais et les langues austro-asiatiques" and following this the work of Otto Dempwolff (1934-38) and lzui Hisanosuke (1952). Murayama (1974) pointed out the large number of similarities between the morphology of Japanese and Oceanic languages and in a seminal study (1975) succeeded in explaining the etymologies of the entire Japanese numeral system (1-1,000) by means of Proto-Austronesian morphemes.

Kawamoto Takao (1985) is currently the leading proponent of the Austronesian connection. Based upon fieldwork in the Pacific, Kawamoto (1976) reconstructed the proto-system of all the Japanese verb combinations based on the incomplete reconstructions of Susumu Ono (1953) and indicated the following shared features: presence of phonemic accent, tendency to disyllabism and canonical morphemic shapes in Old Japanese and Proto-Austronesian, syllables closed with special phonemes only, vowel harmony, agglutination, SVO and adjective-noun order, question forms made by adding a particle to a statement, derivation by vowel mutation, vocalization or nasalization, plurality expressed by affixation and reduplication and other shared features.

In the vocabulary stock, particularly those items dealing with marine life, many convincing comparisons have been made suggesting lexical contact between Japanese (J) and proto-Austronesian (PAN): J ika `cuttlefish` and PAN ikan `fish`; J hana `flower` and PAN buna `flower`. Additionally, many of the so-called `vulgarisms` of the Fudoki texts have been linked with Austronesian, in particular: OJ (Old Japanese) isa `whale` from PAN i`ti ; OJ fisi `sandbar` from PAN pat`iy.

http://202.39.225.133/e2001fes/taitung/E12_02.html

Now... since the Austronesian people traveled and settled almost all islands between madagascar and easter island in ancient times, i doubt the malay would disregard the Japanese islands

[Doan Du]

I didn't mean Central Asia, I meant central Vietnam. You know north Vietnam used to belong to Champa? So that might explain why the Cham are in central Vietnam, probably the communist drove them down there.

No, Kambo.

This happens a long time ago. Champa ceased to exist in the 13th Century, a victim of Vietnamese King Le thanh Tong.

To be fair, Vietnam and Champa were locked in a deadly fight for survival with Vietnam losing badly. The powerful Cham warrior Che Bong Nga launched 10 invasions, sacked Hanoi 3 times and drove the Vietnamese Court into hiding. This was considered to be one of the major crises in the history of Dai Viet. As he fled, the Viet King Ho quy Ly wept and uttered these words "The enemy is stronger than we are, and resistance is impossible."

At this crucial moment, it was due to a stroke of luck that the Vietnamese discovered Che Bong Nga's warship among hundreds. They concentrated cannon fire on it, killing him and thus stopping the victorious Cham march. The Chams weren't some helpless victims that some Cambodians made them out to be just to denounce Vietnamese aggression.

This post has been edited by Doan Du: Feb 28 2004, 11:26 AM

[tqt]

This happens a long time ago. Champa ceased to exist in the 13th Century, a victim of Vietnamese King Le thanh Tong.

The Cham were weaken after 1473 when the Vietnamese launched a massive invasion of Champa with an army of 260,000 men. One Cham king alone already had 10 invasions against us Vietnamese. If we didn't fight the Cham, we Vietnames would cease to exist already.

btw, I believe the Cham once conquered Khmer Krom for a while right?

This post has been edited by tqt: Feb 26 2004, 11:17 PM

[Doan Du]

[quote=malay_ako,Feb 26 2004, 11:35 PM] [QUOTE=Doan Du,Feb 26 2004, 11:15 PM] Yes, I am a Viet.


What malay was that who came to southern china from tibet? Are you refering to the Nagas of Nagaland?

i didnt know much about the relationship of the Vietnamese with the Malays. I guess you claim brotherhood with us malay if you wish. but there is more to being a Malay then having a few similiarities with our Native Austronesian culture. Besides Vietnamese have their own history that i think most viets rather claim then say they are distant descendants of Malay. but there is nothing wrong with showing relationship and how we influence each other in the past, because we will learn that we are friends and not enemies (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

i will jsut tell you an intersting fact:


Some linguists believe the Tai languages probably deserve a place within an expanded version of [the Austronesian languge family], though others favor the Sino-Tibetan family to include them.

The languages of the Tai family are found in Southeast Asia. Britannica claims this language family was formerly considered to be part of the Sino-Tibetan languages, but that most of the similarities are incidental and that the relationship appears to be false. It also mentions suggestions that the Tai are closer to the Austronesian languages.


south-western group
Thai or Siamese (Thailand)
Lao or Laotian (Laos, Thailand)
Shan language (Burma)
Yuan language (Thailand)

central and northern groups (China)
Nung
Tho
Kam-Sui group
Kadai group (China, Yunnan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austronesian_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tai_languages [/quote]
Yes. I understand that there were many waves of migration, not just one.

I am not trying to claim anything. I was a bit skeptical until a conversation with my sister-in-law (who is Indonesian) about Malay language and culture. Unlike other Viets, I am not against the idea that modern Vietnamese are distant descendants of Malays who once populated South of the Yang Tze river.

Interesting discovery about the Tai language.

[tqt]

Doan Du,

Could you talk a little bit about some of the "characteristics" that the Vietnamese share with other non-Vietnamese? You seem to know about it.

[Doan Du]

Doan Du,

Could you talk a little bit about some of the "characteristics" that the Vietnamese share with other non-Vietnamese? You seem to know about it.

We use betel nuts in wedding ceremony. That's a Malay tradition. We chew betel nuts, that's a Malay culture.

Hon Vong Phu (a lady who turned to stone waiting for her husband) is a Malay tale. The hungry calf that pursued a bull trying to nurse (Trang Trinh) is a Malay tale.

[angkorwat19]

"There is a lot of problems with Funan. From a historical view there is as lot problems to prove that they were Khmer because the first inscription found in Khmer is dated to 611. Many historian view Funan as pre Khmer kingdom."

"Khmer fought many wars with Champa and our ancestor help the Viets destroy that country. Khmer attack one side and the Vietnamese from the other. So I guess it`s our Karma because if Champa was still here it will serve as a buffer state between Srok Khmer and Vietnam."

so dont be angry with me, it is not even origianlly my statement, it was the words of your own khmer brother who is not baised and think too good of himself to acknowledge his own people's wrongdoings, do you honestly beleive your khmer ethnicity is perfect and never made any atrocities?

i'm probably one of the few khmers who isn't certain that Funan is a khmer kingdom because malays did settle in SEAsia before the khmers and thats a fact. also, you shouldn't take one quote from a person and present it to other khmers who have different views on the issue. that's ridiculous to get one or a few quotes from other people and have that taken into consideration. i know for sure other khmers don't share the same views as him. he's not even a scholar or an expert in khmer history. who is he to say that khmers deserve karma? it's also irrevelant to bring kampuchea krom into this because that territory has never been fought over, it was illegally given to the vietnamese by the french. no blood was spilled for that piece of land.

[angkorwat19]

At this crucial moment, it was due to a stroke of luck that the Vietnamese discovered Che Bong Nga's warship among hundreds, concentrated cannon fire on it, killing him and stopping the victorious Cham march. The Chams weren't some
helpless victims that some Cambodians made them out to be just to denounce Vietnamese aggression.

not to stir up anymore hatred between khmers and vietnamese but if the vietnamese weren't the aggressors then why did the majority of the cham population migrated to cambodia throughout the 14th to 17th century? most chams rather live under khmer rule than vietnamese rule because they knew that vietnamese would force them to assimilate. khmer kings also allow several cham elites to hold powerful positions in the royal court. khmers also gave chams their own province call Kompong Cham and khmers never forced them to assimilate. they were free to practice their own religion and preserve their own culture.

i tell you this, after the fall of angkor, khmers tried to live in peace since they converted from hindus to theravada buddhists. they were no longer warriors and it was time for others to have the spotlight. that's when the thais, laos, and vietnamese people came in. khmers helped their neighbors and trusted their neighbors but what did we get in return? our land was stolen.. a khmer king gave a Lao warrior named Fa Ngum 5,000 army men to help him defeat the thais. khmer buddhists missionaries went to laos and preached to the lao people about buddha's philosophy and laos became another theravada buddhist country. Lao and Cham people have given us khmers respect in return.