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DaMo
post Mar 12 2004, 07:03 PM
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QUOTE (Doan Du @ Mar 12 2004, 06:21 PM )
The whole paragraph talks only about philosophy and its adoption by different nations.

Then the statement should have been "The more the Europeans investigated Chinese Buddhist philosophy the more they found India to be at its roots"
Chinese philosophy is not limited to Buddhism, you know.

QUOTE (Kulong @ Mar 12 2004, 06:23 PM)
DaMo, as far as I know, the only contribution from India in China is Buddhism.† How did India influence China in terms of art and cuisine?† confused.gif

It's mentioned in the article. The part about music and such. Then there's the Buddhist art styles. And curry, although rice was most likely introduced to India from China.

QUOTE (Menikani @ Mar 12 2004, 06:26 PM)
I don't know if it's true, but I read that martial arts originated in India

No, it isn't true. The Greeks had their own martial arts. So did the Egyptians, I believe. And, of course, the Chinese too. India developed its own style of martial arts, but it certainly did not "invent martial arts" altogether.

This post has been edited by DaMo: Mar 12 2004, 07:07 PM
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Doan Du
post Mar 12 2004, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (DaMo @ Mar 12 2004, 08:03 PM)
Then the statement should have been "The more the Europeans investigated Chinese Buddhist philosophy the more they found India to be at its roots"
Chinese philosophy is not limited to Buddhism, you know.

Then how do you account for other non-Buddhist influence such as Yoga, Zen, Vegetarian diet, Qigong, "empty state" ?

This post has been edited by Doan Du: Mar 12 2004, 08:54 PM
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drunk_on_tea
post Mar 12 2004, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (Menikani @ Mar 12 2004, 07:26 PM)
I don't know if it's true, but I read that martial arts originated in India.

How can India be the source of martial arts when Bhuddism, Jainism and Hinduism highlighted peaceful resistance?
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mikey700
post Mar 12 2004, 08:41 PM
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As far as the cuisine idea is concerned, I doubt it's true. I went to have lunch at Paru's Restaurant in Hollywood, CA and trust me, Chinese food is no where close to Indian food. Although some curry dishes might bare a slight resemblence, on the whole, traditional Chinese cuisine (if that's what's being referred to here) has developed on its own w/o any help from India.
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DaMo
post Mar 13 2004, 04:47 AM
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QUOTE (Doan Du @ Mar 12 2004, 07:59 PM)
Then how do you account for other non-Buddhist influence such as Yoga, Zen, Vegetarian diet, Qigong, "empty state" ?

These came to China as a part of the Buddhist influence (vegetarianism, however, was also prescribed by Taoist philosophers, and Qigong did not come from India). Indian Buddhism itself was influenced by pre-existing Hindu cultures, but these borrowings were transmitted to China in the Buddhist package. Zen, by the way, was first created by an Indian Buddhist monk in China, and is often called Zen Buddhism.

The point is that the statement "The more the Europeans investigated China, the more they found India to be at its roots" gives the out-of-context impression that Chinese civilization owes its greatness to India, and the in-context impression (barely) that Indian philosophy is at the root of Chinese philosophy, both of which are false.

This post has been edited by DaMo: Mar 13 2004, 08:58 AM
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GuanYu
post Mar 13 2004, 01:53 PM
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I've done research on both histories but personally I think China at her apex was far greater as an empire/civilization than India. But that's just my two cents of course.
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Doan Du
post Mar 13 2004, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (DaMo @ Mar 13 2004, 05:47 AM)
These came to China as a part of the Buddhist influence (vegetarianism, however, was also prescribed by Taoist philosophers, and Qigong did not come from India). Indian Buddhism itself was influenced by pre-existing Hindu cultures, but these borrowings were transmitted to China in the Buddhist package. Zen, by the way, was first created by an Indian Buddhist monk in China, and is often called Zen Buddhism.

The point is that the statement "The more the Europeans investigated China, the more they found India to be at its roots" gives the out-of-context impression that Chinese civilization owes its greatness to India, and the in-context impression (barely) that Indian philosophy is at the root of Chinese philosophy, both of which are false.

Qigong was a derivative of Y Jin Jing, a series of exercises invented by Damo at Shao Lin.

Many say Zen was brought to China by Damo himself. He was a school of thought all by himself.

I don't get any of those impressions at all but then I don't equate influence with dominance nor do I look beyond the spin of such claims. To me, it is not a tolerance issue at all. Tolerance is used in relation to evil or negatives. For instance, you may tolerate pain but you never tolerate a great dinner Ė you relish it. You donít tolerate great weather, only terrible weather. You donít tolerate a beautiful car, a work of art, fine clothing or a dream vacation Ė you like or love those things. You don't tolerate Deepak Chopra, you enjoy him.
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GuanYu
post Mar 13 2004, 01:58 PM
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QUOTE (Doan Du @ Mar 12 2004, 07:01 PM)
QUOTE (GuanYu @ Mar 12 2004, 06:59 PM)
Also another consideration must be taken....That Buddhism itself is not strictly an Indian philosophy. If anything Buddhism is considered unorthodox in Indian culture and more reminiscent of Chinese culture which is exactly why Buddhism disappeared in the place that it started whereas it prospered in a place like China.

But Buddha was an Indian prince.

So was Damo who established Shao Lin Temple.

Yes I believe I've clarified that Buddhism can trace it's origins to India. Yes Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha himself) was an Indian prince but that still doesn't change the fact that Buddhism itself is NOT strictly an Indian philosophy and that Buddhism never prospered in the place that it originated whereas it did in foreign lands like China, my original argument.
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GuanYu
post Mar 13 2004, 02:03 PM
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<SNIP>

The point is that the Chinese DO NOT owe their civilization/culture to India at all. Did India make a few great contributions to Chinese culture? Yes, that is a historical and undeniable fact but there is so much more to Chinese culture than the stuff she picked up from India. I guess I was a just a bit offended when I read that statement that the more the Europeans investigated China, the more she found India to be it's roots. I guess I was a being a bit sensitive but I was under the impression that the author is basically saying "If India never existed, then neither would China" which is totally false. If India never existed, then China would be without Buddhism. No biggie considering that Buddhism is hardly definitive of Chinese culture.
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huaren
post Mar 13 2004, 02:28 PM
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Now now now...

Who care about the culture is obtained from india? The most important is that we are stronger than them! keep talking about history, so? Even if you win in the argument, the truth is the truth.

For example Japan, most of its culture are copied from chinese so? What's so special? No one care about it! Nothing. They are still Japanese.

People who argue about, China is a root of India is a fool. The most important is NOW our nation is more modern and stronger than them. Who care? History has past!
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chynagongju
post Mar 13 2004, 03:04 PM
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QUOTE (huaren @ Mar 13 2004, 03:28 PM)
Now now now...

Who care about the culture is obtained from india? The most important is that we are stronger than them! keep talking about history, so? Even if you win in the argument, the truth is the truth.

For example Japan, most of its culture are copied from chinese so? What's so special? No one care about it! Nothing. They are still Japanese.

People who argue about, China is a root of India is a fool. The most important is NOW our nation is more modern and stronger than them. Who care? History has past!

The point is not that we're "stronger" than them now. That's a horrible point. The real point is that China developed our own culture and history unique to that of India, and as many have pointed out, India is not the root of China at all. In all countries, the culture, food, arts, etc is contributed to from many other nations. We all influence each other. And especially since China and India are neighbors, I would expect that the two would have had some kind of impact upon one another. That would be only natural.
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GuanYu
post Mar 14 2004, 02:25 PM
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http://www.atributetohinduism.com/India_an...f%20China"

Here is perhaps an even more offensive article. This one is just one to the extreme. According to this hardcore Indian nationalist, the words "China" and "Mandarin" itself have their origins in India and that Buddhism completely Indianized China nevermind the fact that Buddhism was never strictly an Indian philosophy to begin with. Oh the lengths some people will go to.
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DaMo
post Mar 15 2004, 09:13 AM
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QUOTE (GuanYu @ Mar 14 2004, 02:25 PM)
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/India_an...f%20China"

Here is perhaps an even more offensive article. This one is just one to the extreme. According to this hardcore Indian nationalist, the words "China" and "Mandarin" itself have their origins in India and that Buddhism completely Indianized China nevermind the fact that Buddhism was never strictly an Indian philosophy to begin with. Oh the lengths some people will go to.

The word Mandarin comes from a Malay word menteri, (originally an Indian Sanskrit word mantri), as a translation of a Chinese word for "minister". It was picked up by the Portugese as mandarim. Why this is offensive, I can't imagine. It does not mean that Indians were ministers in Chinese courts, or that Indian brought the concept for "minster" to China, or that Indians invented the Chinese word for "minister". Likewise with the word "China". How many "discovered" countries in the age of European colonization got to choose their names? The Chinese have their own word for "minister" and "China". Why worry over the sources where Westerners got their terms for these words?

As for the rest of the article, I have no time to pick the whole thing apart. Why don't you just quote the parts you think are wrong, and I will try to verify them.
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Doan Du
post Mar 15 2004, 12:57 PM
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QUOTE (DaMo @ Mar 15 2004, 10:13 AM)
QUOTE (GuanYu @ Mar 14 2004, 02:25 PM)
http://www.atributetohinduism.com/India_an...f%20China"

Here is perhaps an even more offensive article. This one is just one to the extreme. According to this hardcore Indian nationalist, the words "China" and "Mandarin" itself have their origins in India and that Buddhism completely Indianized China nevermind the fact that Buddhism was never strictly an Indian philosophy to begin with. Oh the lengths some people will go to.

The word Mandarin comes from a Malay word menteri, (originally an Indian Sanskrit word mantri), as a translation of a Chinese word for "minister". It was picked up by the Portugese as mandarim. Why this is offensive, I can't imagine. It does not mean that Indians were ministers in Chinese courts, or that Indian brought the concept for "minster" to China, or that Indians invented the Chinese word for "minister". Likewise with the word "China". How many "discovered" countries in the age of European colonization got to choose their names? The Chinese have their own word for "minister" and "China". Why worry over the sources where Westerners got their terms for these words?

As for the rest of the article, I have no time to pick the whole thing apart. Why don't you just quote the parts you think are wrong, and I will try to verify them.

People influence each other all the times...The Chinese also influence the English language with words like typhoon, tycoon and others. When the Portuguese first came to China, they heard rumor of a country named Ribenguo in the East from Chinese fishermen. The name Cipango for Japan stuck with the Portuguese dictionary until 19th Century.
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GuanYu
post Mar 15 2004, 03:59 PM
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<SNIP>

That whole article was nothing more than some hardcore nationalistic drivel perpetrated by some Indian who is trying to prove his culture is superior to everyone else. He's probably mad because he took a history course and his teacher didn't mention anything of India but instead focused on China, Greece, Egypt, etc. While no one can deny that there is a certain degree of truth to his little article, it is nationalism and ethnocentroism gone to the extreme. According to this site, everyone owes everything to the Indians. The Chinese, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Japanese, etc. Some of the crap he posted was just downright racist. One of his sources actually stems from a book called "Hindu Superiority". WTF? Claiming that Chinese literature is boring, bland, and umimaginative, India's cultural superiority over China is undeniable, the Chinese culture is a like a poor beggar to that of the rich Indians. LOL it's funny how the Indians exerted influence over their northern neighbor yet still never amassed an empire as powerful as China did technologically or economically. Also what was the point of the whole Rome bashing article? I mean I guess it's not good enough for him to simply promote the idea that his culture is superior to everyone else but he now has to bash others too for the sake of it. Jesus Christ lived in India? Christianity has it's roots in Hindu thought? Next thing you know, God himself is Indian. Seriously I might as well read Mein Kampf. Hell even Hitler had a few educated points here and there.
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DaMo
post Mar 15 2004, 04:32 PM
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QUOTE (GuanYu @ Mar 15 2004, 03:59 PM)
<SNIP>

That whole article was nothing more than some hardcore nationalistic drivel perpetrated by some Indian who is trying to prove his culture is superior to everyone else. He's probably mad because he took a history course and his teacher didn't mention anything of India but instead focused on China, Greece, Egypt, etc. While no one can deny that there is a certain degree of truth to his little article, it is nationalism and ethnocentroism gone to the extreme. According to this site, everyone owes everything to the Indians. The Chinese, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Japanese, etc. Some of the crap he posted was just downright racist. One of his sources actually stems from a book called "Hindu Superiority". WTF? Claiming that Chinese literature is boring, bland, and umimaginative, India's cultural superiority over China is undeniable, the Chinese culture is a like a poor beggar to that of the rich Indians. LOL it's funny how the Indians exerted influence over their northern neighbor yet still never amassed an empire as powerful as China did technologically or economically. Also what was the point of the whole Rome bashing article? I mean I guess it's not good enough for him to simply promote the idea that his culture is superior to everyone else but he now has to bash others too for the sake of it. Jesus Christ lived in India? Christianity has it's roots in Hindu thought? Next thing you know, God himself is Indian. Seriously I might as well read Mein Kampf. Hell even Hitler had a few educated points here and there.

He is right on many counts, and wrong on just as many. Also, he makes great leaps of logic to form very questionable opinions eg claiming that China was part of a "Vedic empire". In the section about war, he claims India invented gunpowder. Frankly, anyone who speaks of the "Hindu roots of Christmas" is irredeemably insane by my standards. That's not to say everything he writes is BS, just a significant portion of it. But a half-correct encyclopedia is about as useless as a fully-incorrect encyclopedia, because you need to do the full research on every point in order to tell what's true and what's false. In fact, in that respect, a fully-incorrect encyclopedia is better, because at least you know for a fact that everything in it is false.

Again, if you need, you can call me on any quote from the site for verification.
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GuanYu
post Mar 15 2004, 06:05 PM
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LOL gunpowder invented by the Indians? Okay now that's just going too far. I think every well known historian should know that the first gunpowder was invented by the Chinese. I guess paper, block printing, silk, porcelain, umbrella, seismograph, stirrup and the compass were also invented by the Indians too. Next thing you know Confucius and Lao Tzu were actually Indian. Oh and here's a good article that truly gives an objective account on India's contribution to China through Buddhism rather than reading the BS perpetrated in that Indo-Nazi article.

http://qi-journal.com/culture.asp?-token.S...ia%20to%20China
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GuanYu
post Mar 16 2004, 02:58 PM
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Another couple of funny things I found about their little article, aside from the fact that 70% of it was propaganda, was their attack on Islamic culture and their rules of war (Basically stating that while everyone else in the world is barbarous in terms of war, the perfect Hindus are not). This article is basically just that Indo-Nazi author's way of saying that Indian culture is perfect and no one else is. This is what I've learned from the article: Throughout history India did everything right and everyone wronged her. Islam is evil, China owes everything about their civilization/culture to India, India is also superior to Egypt, and the Greeks learned everything from India. Oh and also Rome is bad, India is better. Jesus Christ himself founded his own religion based on Hindu/Buddhist doctrine. People who admire India are greater than people who admire inferior cultures like China, Rome, Japan, etc. Sorry for my rambling but yeah I guess you all can tell I'm a bit offended by what I read.
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dtl88
post Mar 16 2004, 10:25 PM
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Well, (as DaMo will confirm) there are lots of revisionist theories on how even BLACKS and WHITES 'created' Chinese civilization, or how Chinese civilization was the product of these influences. This however, is my first experience with Indians making such claims.

I hope this won't ruin your impression of Indian people. Many Indian people I know are much too intelligent to make up this kind of drivel, because they have enough confidence in their own heritage that they don't have to 'prove' their 'superiority' by trying to claim China as theirs (as some white/black racists do).
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GuanYu
post Mar 17 2004, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE (dtl88 @ Mar 16 2004, 11:25 PM)
Well, (as DaMo will confirm) there are lots of revisionist theories on how even BLACKS and WHITES 'created' Chinese civilization, or how Chinese civilization was the product of these influences. This however, is my first experience with Indians making such claims.

I hope this won't ruin your impression of Indian people. Many Indian people I know are much too intelligent to make up this kind of drivel, because they have enough confidence in their own heritage that they don't have to 'prove' their 'superiority' by trying to claim China as theirs (as some white/black racists do).

Oh no, not at all. Some of my best friends are Indian. My offense is not specifically against the Indian people in general because I know not all Indians are like this. The Indians, like the Chinese, have an ancient history/culture with list of things to be proud of but in no way should their pride be used as a way to promote the absurd delusional idea of their cultural superiority over others and this does not just go to the Indians but to the Chinese, Japanese, Germans, Americans, etc.
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