Your opinion on Kelentan state goverment?, No flaming please Options

[AEROFORCE1]

As you know the problem between Thai and Malaysia border is so tense now.
Many of the media claim that separatist always escape crose Malaysia border and hide in Kelantan state.I am just curious that the PAS party may behind this problem?
The reson why I start this thread is that I want to learn about the border problem from Malay view. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)
Every opinion are welcome ,but no flaming please.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kelantan

Politics
A part of the deeply conservative Malay heartlands, Kelantan has been ruled by the opposition Islamic Party of Malaysia (PAS) since 1990, with re-elections in 1995, 1999 and 2004. It is currently the only Malaysian state not ruled by the Barisan Nasional coalition.

For years, PAS has attempted to impose a strict interpretation of Islamic Law on Kelantan. It has succeeded in imposing certain social strictures such as single-sex queues in supermarkets; separate public benches for men and women; and limiting entertainment centres to prohibit "salacious behaviour". Proposals to institute punishments such as amputation of limbs for thievery and execution for blasphemy (collectively known as Hudud Law), however, have been blocked by the national government on constitutional grounds.

One of the most controversial steps PAS has taken in Kelantan is to place tough restrictions or outright bans on the traditional performance of syncretic Malay theatrical forms, such as Wayang Kulit, Makyong, Dikir Barat, and Main Puteri. Newfangled versions without the traditional references to Hindu dewa–dewi and traditional Malay hantu and otherwise in keeping with orthodox Islam are, however, tolerated in certain cases. Also restricted are public performances by women: Aside from Quran recitals, such performances are completely banned if any men are in the audience. While PAS has maintained that these steps were essential to promote Islam and put an end to immoral behavior among the Muslim population, many consider them simply an act of defiance against Barisan Nasional's laws — which are more tolerant or laxer, depending on your viewpoint — and also a major loss to Malay traditional arts.

History
The name Kelantan is said to be a corruption of gelam hutan, i.e. the Malay name for the cajuput, or swamp tea tree (Melaleuca leucadendron). Other theories claim the name comes from the Malay word kilatan, 'shiny/glittery' or kolam tanah, 'clay pool'.

The early history of Kelantan is rather obscure, but archaelogial finds indicate traces of human settlement dating to prehistoric times. Early Kelantan had links to the Funan Kingdom, the Khmer Empire, Srivijaya and Siam. Around 1411, Raja Kumar, the ruler of Kelantan, became independent of Siam and Kelantan became an important centre of trade by the end of the 15th century. In 1499, Kelantan became a vassal state of the Malacca Sultanate. With the fall of Malacca in 1511, Kelantan was divided up and ruled by petty chieftains. With the conquest by Siam in 1603, most of these petty Kelantan chiefs became subject to Patani. Around 1760, a petty chieftain of Kubang Labu in Kelantan succeeded in unifying the territory of the present Kelantan. Shortly thereafter, in 1764, Long Yunos seized the throne and proclaimed himself Raja of Kelantan. However, with his death, Kelantan came under the influence of neighboring Terengganu.

In 1800, Raja Muhammad declared himself as the first Sultan of Kelantan. In 1812, he broke from Terengganu's influence and became a separate tributary of Siam. In the 1820s, Kelantan was one of the most populous and prosperous states in the Malay Peninsula, having avoided the wars and disputes which plagued the southern and western states. Siam continued to play an important role in Kelantan throughout the 19th century.

Under the terms of the Anglo-Siamese Treaty of 1909, Siam surrendered its claims over Kelantan, Terengganu, Kedah and Perlis to Great Britain, and Kelantan thus became one of the Unfederated Malay States with a British Resident.

Economy
Kelanattan is the second poorest ste in Malaysia, with a chiefly agrarian economy dominated by padi, rubber and tobacco.

Those people in Thai's south border are also poor and it is easy for the separatism to try to make them think that Thai goverment is not taking care of them well.This would be the reason for them to join the separatist.

Malay
Kelantan Malays consider themselves a rather unique breed. Many have some Thai blood, as intermarriages between the Thais and Malays have been and remain common. Kelantan Malays also note differences between themselves and the Malays of other states. The Patani Malays of southern Thailand are very similar in ethnicity and culture to the Malays of Kelantan.
Kelantanese Malay dialect, heavily influenced by the Thai language, is distinguished from standard Malay as well as other Malay dialects by its unique grammar, pronunciation and figures of speech.
The ethnic Thai inhabitants of Kelantan are mostly centered in an area around the coastal town of Tumpat, site of most of the state's twenty or so Buddhist temples, and noteworthy for its number of confident and relatively well-off Siamese villages.
Thai
The ethnic Thai inhabitants of Kelantan are mostly centered in an area around the coastal town of Tumpat, site of most of the state's twenty or so Buddhist temples, and noteworthy for its number of confident and relatively well-off Siamese villages.

The dialect of the Thai language spoken in Kelantan is called "Tak Bai", after the southernmost coastal town in Narathiwat, just across the Kolok River from Malaysia. Tak Bai dialect differs substantially from standard southern Thai and other regional Thai dialects, and it seems certain that the Kelantan Thais are the descendants of an original enclave of Narathiwat settlers established in sparsely-populated Malay territory as long as four centuries ago.

Buddhism is also visible, in that hundreds of Thai wats can be found throughout the state. The local Muslims are strangely ambivalent in their attitude towards Thai Buddhism, which is seen as a relatively prestigious religion, certainly preferable to atheism, and more obviously an organised community faith than that of the Kelantan Chinese. The Malays definitely approve of the Thais as a religious people, and are generally impressed by the architecture and style of the Buddhist temples, which are recognised as a cultural asset of the region.


The dialect of the Thai language spoken in Kelantan is called "Tak Bai", after the southernmost coastal town in Narathiwat, just across the Kolok River from Malaysia. Tak Bai dialect differs substantially from standard southern Thai and other regional Thai dialects, and it seems certain that the Kelantan Thais are the descendants of an original enclave of Narathiwat settlers established in sparsely-populated Malay territory as long as four centuries ago.
Chinese
Chinese assimilation in Kelantan is manifested as: "Malay behaviour as frontstage and Chinese behaviour as backstage". "Frontstage" or public behaviour includes speaking Kelantanese Malay even when among themselves, adopting Malay-style clothing, not eating pork, and observing certain Malay customs and holidays. "Backstage" or private behaviour includes maintaining certain traditional Chinese beliefs and customs confined only to the home. Kelantanese Chinese feel a sense of separateness from other Malaysian Chinese due to their illiteracy and inadequacy in their own Chinese language.

Similar to Thai in Pattani ,Malay in Kelantan consider them self as the different ethnic.

Malaysia too has problems with the northern state of Kelantan, bordering Pattani. It's the only state in Malaysia to be ruled by the orthodox opposition, and they have close ties with Pattani esp same dialect, which is completely different from standard Malay (southern region). Kota Bahru, the capital of Kelantan, is like another country from KL. A Malay from Singapore will not understand the Malay/Yawi as you call it from Pattani. It's not just Thailand that is having problems with the border folks, so too does Malaysia. You guys do know that there are many loyal Thai Muslims in Thailand right. I have met many in Bangkok. They are proud to be of Malay heritage, but similarly feel patriotic to be Thai citizens. They resent being called khon kaek though.

Ooopps, just read moderator's warning, sorry Nung1! I was in Bangkok during Mother's Day earier this month, and went to Sanam Luang (I think ) with some friends from Chula Uni to see the lights. Again I was made to show how Thai's loyalty to the king is second to none in southeast Asia. Long may he live!

I have learn from malacan on this issue.Beside, I am worry this would be harm to both Thai and Malaysia ,if Patani can separate from Thai and Kelantan may join them and become other country. I think that this is not good for Thai ,Malaysia ,and the separatist.
The example from east timor show that ,after they separate from indonisia they are poor and find a hard time to survive by them selve.

This post has been edited by AEROFORCE1: Nov 5 2005, 07:37 PM

[forrestcat]

Kerlantan never wanted to be separated from Malaysia. No such thing.

PAS is not that radical as an Islamic party. When it was formed , its main objective was to uplift the rights of the rural areas and many of its leaders were religious teachers,that is why PAS attains an Islamic identity . The only reason PAS still maintain its presence there is because of its spiritual leader , Nik Aziz, a down to earth and soft spoken man who is very revered and respected by the Kelantanese and he's different from the corrupted leaders of UMNO. However, the man is very old and once he passes away, its very likely that BN will take back the state.

It depends how you define poor when referring Kelantan as a poor state. Its people are industrious and hardworking and many Kelantanese are educated and working in many parts of Malaysia and many of these affluent Kelantanese return to Kelantan when they retire and open businesses in Kelantan. It is not poor, only that it does not generate much wealth as the other states and the Federal government sort of squeeze the PAS-led government of any federal funds, preventing PAS from making much significant development. Moreover, Kelantan has virtually no debt (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif) , unlike its neighbouring states which owe the Federal gov millions and no one knows the circumstances of those money.Kelantan also has low poverty level, the people may not earn much money but the cost of living in Kelantan is helluva cheaper, so Kelantanes there are not starving and live well. Separation from Malaysia and its federation is way out of their minds, there is no reason to.

[yana19384]

cant say much...afraid that most bad stuff i heard or know abut kelantan are just plain old gossip and back biting (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_neutral.gif)

[forrestcat]

Yep.it is all goosip....buruk khabar daripada rupa.

Kelantan is a beautiful state, all of our not so smart politicians and leaders who live in villas in Klang Valley only bad mouth Kelantan in their politicking without going to Kelantan first .

[brucewayne]

kawe maleh nak ghoyak panje deh....tapi hok ye nak pisah denge mesia...ngarut jo...

[yana19384]

and of course kelantan wont make a decision to be on its own without malaysia...that is plain stupid...whoever started that news (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/thumbsdown.gif)

[forrestcat]

long live the Federation!!!!

AEROFORCE was just being curious and was probably just misinformed about the situation in Kelantan. Its good he consulted us first rather like the others who just hijack our threads without a reason.

[AEROFORCE1]

Development of Terrorist movement in the three southern Thai provinces
 
                Early period              Middle period             Present period

PlaceFounder in Kalantan  Mountain at the border     Towns, villages,
               , Malaysia                of Thailand-Malaysia        private religious schools



Person     High level governor   Head persons, middle        Ustas
               and followers            level politicians                 (religious teacher),
                                         students, politicians
 

Source: http://www.2bangkok.com/2bangkok/thaimedia...randpeace.shtml

PAS is not that radical as an Islamic party. When it was formed , its main objective was to uplift the rights of the rural areas and many of its leaders were religious teachers,that is why PAS attains an Islamic identity .

I am just wonder that these Ustas (religious teacher) in the southern Thailand may relate with those in Kelantan.

I am just curious about the history ,Kelantan and Pattani was the Pattani kingdom ,and in the past Kelantan was support the Pattani revolution ,but it was not success.

Any way in my view as Thai people, it is not fair for us that we has to spent our tax to solve this stupid problem on the south province. Some of my friend said that just let them go and be starving as East timor. These day it quite hard to build a new country.

This post has been edited by AEROFORCE1: Nov 5 2005, 06:33 PM

[forrestcat]

table width="99%" border="1" cellpadding="3">
                              <tr>
                                <td>&nbsp;</td>
                                <td class="tr2">Early period</td>
                                <td class="tr2">Middle period</td>
                                <td class="tr2">Present period</td>
                              </tr>
                              <tr>
                                <td class="tr2">Place</td>
                                <td class="tr2">Founder in Kalantan, Malaysia</td>
                                <td class="tr2">Mountain at the border of Thailand-Malaysia</td>
                                <td class="tr2">Towns, villages, private religious
                                  schools</td>
                              </tr>
                              <tr>
                                <td class="tr2">Person</td>
                                <td class="tr2">High level governor and followers</td>
                                <td class="tr2">Head persons, middle level politicians</td>
                                <td class="tr2">Ustas (religious teacher), students,
                                  politicians</td>
                              </tr>
                            </table>

What is this?

[AEROFORCE1]

Ignor it just a my mistake on html code
,I've edit it already

This post has been edited by AEROFORCE1: Nov 5 2005, 01:00 AM

[AEROFORCE1]

Seem like you guys got some things on your mind about Kelantan state that you don't want to say.

Any way Thanks for all your idea ,actually I like the idea of the federal goverment in Malaysia that each state has to manage his own money. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif)

This post has been edited by AEROFORCE1: Nov 5 2005, 05:11 AM

[caramel]

I'm sorry I can't contribute to this topic. I do not know anything about Kelantan.

[Iron Malayan]

Pas only holds 23 out of 44 seats in the Kelantan state assembly.

Its very easy for UMNO to take over this state. All they have to do is offer two of the PAS state assemblymen millions of Ringgit to switch sides

but the federal govt appear to be allowing PAS to hold on to Kelantan state for some reason.

[caramel]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_confused.gif) Fishy.

Do you think it is because they want to scare the M'sians esp. Chinese to vote for Barisan instead? I think the Chinese at the moment are the ones who are vote swingers. So I think if they let Kelantan to be held by PAS, they can make a comparison for example how under developed M'sia will be under their ruling? Also, they always use the tactic that M'sia will be 100% Islamic country when they are ruled by PAS. Then, they will use DAP and say that how it will be 100% Chinese and the Bumis will lose their equal rights and stuff? Same old story from Barisan.

This post has been edited by caramel: Nov 5 2005, 04:44 PM

[malaccan]

Oh, you've learnt something from me Aeroforce1? (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_redface.gif) (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) I just gave my observations really. Kelantan secceding from the federation is as likely as Malacca doing the same. The point I wanted to voice was that many Kelantanese people see themselves almost as a distinct froup within the Malay brotherhood. If you go to any local Malaysian universities, you'll find very active Kelantan student societies that are very vociferous in a way that no other state-based organisations are. It is very interesting to compare Kelantan with Negeri Sembilan state which borders Selangor and Malacca in the south. Negeri Sembilan is historically linked with the Minangkabau/Padang people and their dialect is as unique and soothing as the Kelantan dialect and yet it is very much in the mainstream. Kelantan gave the Malay world a lot by way of culture and traditions which is distinct from the one imparted by Malacca. It has been argued that Islam arrived in the Malay peninsula first from the east coast, ie via Kelantan and Terengganu, with the finding of 'batu bersurat' or stone inscriptions as well as local Muslim graves. Kelantan had strong links with the Champa state which itself received aspects of Islam centuries before it reached the Malay peninsula. The southern Malay states always were more closely linked with the empires of maritime southeast Asia ie ancient Indonesia like Majapahit, Srivijaya and Sailendra and it didn't pay much tribute or homage to the Siamese kings, unlike the some of the northern states. So for many of us, there is no historical overlord-tributary baggage with Thailand that would impede on bilateral relations.

Bringing things more up-to-date, one of the PAS state councillors passed away very recently, and by-elections are gonna be held soon. With PAS holding 23 state seats and BN 21 seats, it is imperative for PAS to hold onto its slim majority. It's gonna a tough one, but I believe that PAS will retain the seat.

[AEROFORCE1]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) 2 Yeah I learn from you Malaccan. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Thanks "Malaccan" I can't also said that which side history is right. And the history is one of the main cause of pattani problem. It is also hard to make many of Thai people in Bangkok and Pattani accept that past is past. We should not bother about it.
If we stick to the part ,Mongole or British would be very big country right?
Thanks ,for all you guys for your contribute.

PS. If you guys want to know about the issues on Thai and Malay ,you can ask me on this topic as well. But ,the answer is from my view only ,I can not speak for all Thai guys. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_smile.gif)

This post has been edited by AEROFORCE1: Nov 5 2005, 07:47 PM

[malaccan]

^Gee, cheers Aeroforce1! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
I'm not gonna name names, but I really do have really close Thai friends from Bangkok and Phuket, both Buddhists and Muslims, more of the former in fact. When I go to Bangkok I stay with them and I host them when they come to KL.
Me signing off, Malaccan, proud to be a Malaysian, and proud to have Thailand as a neighbour.

[AEROFORCE1]

Thanks again. And frankly about Thai view on Malaysia many of people try to generalize on all malay are like those who live in Kelantan. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif) Because it closest to Thai ,and She always been discussed in Thai history book. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

Any way ,I believe what I see more. I am also have many of Malay and Singaporean friends around.And all of them are OK lah ^_~
But the most poor guy who is the victim of the conflict is my cousin boy friend. -Poor guy lah. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/Talktohand.gif) -
He is Chinese Malay from Penang and now he live in Bangkok. He find a slightly hard time to mix up with our family ,but now he is OK.Any way, he is a nice guy (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by AEROFORCE1: Nov 5 2005, 08:42 PM

[malaccan]

Thanks again. And frankly about Thai view on Malaysia many of people try to generalize on all malay are like those who live in Kelantan. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif) Because it closest to Thai ,and She always been discussed in Thai history book. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/sure.gif)

Yeah, I also suspect this. There are in fact many many succesful and rich Kelantanese, but many have migrated to other states.

Any way ,I believe what I see more. I am also have many of Malay and Singaporean friends around.And all of them are OK lah ^_~
But the most poor guy who is the victim of the conflict is my cousin boy friend. -Poor guy lah.Talktohand
He is Chinese Malay from Penang and now he live in Bangkok. He find a slightly hard time to mix up with our family ,but now he is OK.Any way, he is a nice guy  (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Wah! You say 'lah' like a Malaysian krab! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) 2 Khor thot na aeroforce1, but just to correct you a little. I think you meant that your cousin's boyfriend is a Chinese Malaysian. Just like how khun caramel is a Chinese Malaysian, I am a Malay Malaysian. Malaysian referring to our nationality, Chinese or Malay our ethnicity. Malaysians and Singporeans still have to write our ethnicities in government official forms (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_sad.gif) , something which is welcomingly absent in Thailand.

Even if this thread gets hijacked or flamed later on, we're cool. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/cool30.gif)

[AEROFORCE1]

Malaysians and Singporeans still have to write our ethnicities in government official forms  (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_sad.gif) , something which is welcomingly absent in Thailand. 

I not quite sure it is a good idea or not for not consider about Ethnic. We Think Thai is Thai. And about the south part conflict ,I believe that those who in Bangkok think that why Chinese in BKK can become Thai ,but why those who in the border not be the same. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/confused.gif)

Even if this thread gets hijacked or flamed later on, we're cool. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/cool30.gif)

Sure dude (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif) I am not Siam gila (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) 2