Why the non-Malay does not join the government, or uniformed services. No flaming please Options

[tengkuafif]

I prefer an all Muslim armed forces. Instead of trying to get more non-Muslims to join the army and police, our top leaders should leave things the way it is. We Muslims must NEVER EVER trust non-believers with our national security. We must learn from history or we will be condemned to repeat the mistake Malacca made in 1511.

(IMG:http://forum.cari.com.my/images/smilies/sepanduk2.gif)

[johnleemk]

Like I said

Non-Muslims can never be trusted with national security. We have the history of Malacca's defeat to prove it.

Okay, let me take one isolated incident and extrapolate from it. No, let's take more than that. There were many uprisings by the Malays against the British in Peninsular Malaysia in the last 19th and early 20th centuries. Not one of those succeeded. Conclusion? Malays cannot be trusted in guerilla warfare. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) 2 If everyone decided to discriminate so blatantly based on one single incident (or, as in my example, several different incidents), where would we be?

[kimyee73]

I prefer an all Muslim armed forces. Instead of trying to get more non-Muslims to join the army and police, our top leaders should leave things the way it is. We Muslims must NEVER EVER trust non-believers with our national security. We must learn from history or we will be condemned to repeat the mistake Malacca made in 1511.

Yes, I agree with you to leave things the way it is than agree to your other preference. The non-muslim can join any regiments in the Army other than RAMD and KAGAT since these are for Malays only. They can also join RMAF, RMN, PDRM, MMEA etc since the way it is today, they are open to all races and religions. I still remember PPH (now PGA) recruits Chinese during 2nd emergency so that they can understand what the commies are talking about while in the jungle. My relative join PPH back then and the last I heard he is now a sargeant in PGA.

[guanodemo]

I prefer an all Muslim armed forces. Instead of trying to get more non-Muslims to join the army and police, our top leaders should leave things the way it is. We Muslims must NEVER EVER trust non-believers with our national security. We must learn from history or we will be condemned to repeat the mistake Malacca made in 1511.

Like I said

Non-Muslims can never be trusted with national security. We have the history of Malacca's defeat to prove it.

(IMG:http://forum.cari.com.my/images/smilies/sepanduk2.gif)

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif) me too....

[Protoculture]

I prefer an all Muslim armed forces. Instead of trying to get more non-Muslims to join the army and police, our top leaders should leave things the way it is. We Muslims must NEVER EVER trust non-believers with our national security. We must learn from history or we will be condemned to repeat the mistake Malacca made in 1511.

Well, I've to disagree about this. Our most elite troops, especially from Royal Rangers are made up by non-Muslim Borneoan tribes (Iban, Bidayuh, Murut & Kadazandusun) plus Senoi Praaq's unit are made up by non-Muslim Org Asli.

Given that most Royal Rangers units battling commies insurgencies at Peninsular Malaysia, they've shown their own loyalties not limited to Sabah & Sarawak only.

What happen in Malacca is that the Sultanate depends too much on mercenaries from Java. Mercenaries will fight only for those who've more money to offer. Cash-rich Portugese take advantage of that.

[Protoculture]

Yes, I agree with you to leave things the way it is than agree to your other preference. The non-muslim can join any regiments in the Army other than RAMD and KAGAT since these are for Malays only. They can also join RMAF, RMN, PDRM, MMEA etc since the way it is today, they are open to all races and religions. I still remember PPH (now PGA) recruits Chinese during 2nd emergency so that they can understand what the commies are talking about while in the jungle. My relative join PPH back then and the last I heard he is now a sargeant in PGA.

Well, non-muslims will definitely joined Army through Royal Rangers while others will choosing the glamourus outfits like Royal Airforce & Royal Navy.

[Aranadhel]

macam ni baik civil war je...

[Protoculture]

macam ni baik civil war je...

Do you really WANT it that much?

Be careful of what you wish ... are you ready to pay the ultimate price?

[Aranadhel]

Do you really WANT it that much?

Be careful of what you wish ... are you ready to pay the ultimate price?

look here... you read thru all the post as I did & clearly you see 2 point of views.. those who want a full 100% Muslim army & another a mix of both... so? pretty much there is no unity from what they are posting in here.. so dont go making me the scapegoat by talking like tht...

This post has been edited by Aranadhel: Jan 15 2006, 10:37 PM

[Protoculture]

look here... you read thru all the post as I did & clearly you see 2 point of views.. those who want a full 100% Muslim army & another a mix of both... so? pretty much there is no unity from what they are posting in here.. so dont go making me the scapegoat by talking like tht...

I clearly sees 'em. But in reality, all-Muslim MAF are against the gist of Malaysia's own soul, in which is multi-ethnic & multi-religion in nature.

The backbone of MAF is clearly derived from Bumiputra majority. But within Bumiputra mix, there are undeniably supported by non-Muslim indigenious Borneoan tribes.

My Navy Reservist Commander is an Iban-Christian. His 2nd in command is an Bidayuh-Christian woman. While Malays made the majority of officers (there even a Chinese too) & other ranks. We've no trouble accepting & following commands from non-Muslim Commander.

At the end, one's loyalty to the nation that counts.

I'm sorry for upsetting you, but be careful in saying things like civil war or something.

We cannot afford another Bosnia-Herzegovina or Cambodia's Khmer Rouge type of civil massacre, do we?

[kimyee73]

Looks like the government and MAF do not agree with those holding 100% Muslim view. Thanks god these people are not running the gov & MAF. Come to think about it, they will never make it to the top anyway.

[Aranadhel]

I clearly sees 'em. But in reality, all-Muslim MAF are against the gist of Malaysia's own soul, in which is multi-ethnic & multi-religion in nature.

The backbone of MAF is clearly derived from Bumiputra majority. But within Bumiputra mix, there are undeniably supported by non-Muslim indigenious Borneoan tribes.

My Navy Reservist Commander is an Iban-Christian. His 2nd in command is an Bidayuh-Christian woman. While Malays made the majority of officers (there even a Chinese too) & other ranks. We've no trouble accepting & following commands from non-Muslim Commander.

At the end, one's loyalty to the nation that counts.

I'm sorry for upsetting you, but be careful in saying things like civil war or something.

We cannot afford another Bosnia-Herzegovina or Cambodia's Khmer Rouge type of civil massacre, do we?

none taken.. its just the posts in here are bothersome.. thts all.

[kimyee73]

Can we go back on discussing why non-Malays do not want to join the gov instead of arguing over religion?

Well, at the end of it all, I still think they still go for $$ and promotion opportunities and none of it can be found in government sector.

[johnleemk]

Ditto kimyee. As a Chinese I have no qualms admitting that few of us would ever seriously consider joining the civil service, police, firefighters or army. I think the wages need to be raised, which really isn't that big an issue, IMO. Our teachers are overworked and underpaid -- that much I know for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if it's the same elsewhere in the bureaucracy, although admittedly there are a lot of slackers who are underworked *and* underpaid. I still think a pay raise is justified, as long as the government makes it clear it won't tolerate crap from its employees. Civil servants who don't do their job properly need to be sacked on the spot, not reprimanded or transferred out -- all that does is pass the buck.

[Protoculture]

Can we go back on discussing why non-Malays do not want to join the gov instead of arguing over religion?

Well, at the end of it all, I still think they still go for $$ and promotion opportunities and none of it can be found in government sector.

That is true. Even the Bumiputra communities starts looking for non-Govt. jobs as that pays well compared to Govt. salaries, especially the Armed Forces.

While MY Govt. currently trimming down the personnels to make for room for smaller, more effective modern & hitech fighting force that currently fit the doctrine of 21st century warfare, the financial rewards to the personnels must be increased so that cases like 'pay peanuts, get a bunch of monkeys' won't be occuring anymore. Increase the life standards of the Armed Forces personnels, & vigorous promotion of healthier lifestyle in the military & career opportunities in military must be made more attractive to the public.

[kimyee73]

I think promotion opportunity is also a big factor especially the non-Malays were not preferred for promotion. More than 30 year ago I can still see many head of dept were Chinese. As they got phased out and retired, there are hardly new one. My grandpa was the head of survey dept back in the 70s. In the 80s, my uncle was the 1st assistant to the headmaster in a national school. When the headmaster retired, the 2nd assistant was promoted over him to be the new hm. He vowed never to teach in a national school again and immediately transferred to chinese school. He retired as hm. In the armed forces, there were quite a number of non-Malay Majors and Lt Col but only a couple made it to become Brig Gen. The same thing in the Navy. We can see quite a number of Commanders commanding patrol boats but have not seen anyone made it to commanding a frigate yet.

Also you tend not to work hard in gov service since it won't affect your chance for promotion anyway.

[Iron Malayan]

Ya, Malaysia has a very fair and politically correct arrangement. Setting up separate army units for Muslims and non-Muslims like the RAMD will alllow the 100% Muslim units to be deployed in highly critical combat and non-combat duties
as well as to disarm the non-Muslim units at the first sign of disloyalty.

[johnleemk]

Good for you. Let's segregate the army units. Boy, that will do wonders for national unity! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[johnleemk]

Good for you. Let's segregate the army units. Boy, that will do wonders for national unity! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[kimyee73]

Ya, Malaysia has a very fair and politically correct arrangement. Setting up separate army units for Muslims and non-Muslims like the RAMD will alllow the 100% Muslim units to be deployed in highly critical combat and non-combat duties
as well as to disarm the non-Muslim units at the first sign of disloyalty.

What do you mean by highly critical combat duties? RAMD and KAGAT are the only 2 regiments for Malays and Muslims respectively and RAMD do not even allow non-Malay Muslims to join due to the traditional regimental setup for Malays only. Our PAC (RDF) composed of 2x RAMD and 1x RRD battalions. Also any non-Muslims can join combat support units like KAD, RAD, RAJD, RSD, KRD etc. Do you mean PAC is not critical combat duties? They are our Rapid Deployment Force and shown prominently during 2005 National Day with their now famous War Dance. See how well RAMD will perform in conventional war if no support from multi-racial combat support units I mentioned above. Maybe you mean GGK (SOF) as critical duties? I've not heard of any rules saying GGK is for Muslims only. Unless you can come-up with very specific duties that is off-limit to non-Muslims, I suggest you keep your religious fanatism to yourself.

This post has been edited by kimyee73: Jan 18 2006, 04:42 AM