tensions in malaysia Options

[Iron Malayan]

I totally agree with nusantara.
We've been too kind but what have they given us?

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Don't you know tengkuafif, they give lots of RM to the Malay minister/gov, don't they...LOL

cheers....

Huh ?

FYI Malaysia's main revenue generators are the oil,gas, palm oil, manufacture of automobiles, chemicals, machineries, electronics and semiconductors. All the big investors in these sectors are either govt or foreign owned.

[1+1]

Tolerance is not enough. It can never be enough. Until all Malaysians can think of themselves as Malaysians, forget about national unity. Look at Yugoslavia. The Slavs, Gypsies, etc. all tolerated one another as long as the government was strong and could keep them in check. When the government collapsed, everyone slaughtered one another, neighbours killing neighbours. In Rwanda, intermarriage wasn't enough. Even the fact that it was difficult to distinguish between Hutu and Tutsi wasn't enough. Fathers killed wives and children for being of Tutsi blood.

One day, Lee Kuan Yew joked with an Eurasian colleague of his that he would be the last Eurasian in Singapore. The Eurasian said, "No, not the last. We don't have Eurasians now. Only Singaporeans." Eurasians were the Bumiputra-equivalent when the Whites ruled Malaysia - the Whites only gave the plum postings to the Eurasians. But as far as this man was concerned, he was Singaporean. I don't think many non-Bumiputra (or even non-Malay0 Malaysians can say the same about Malaysia. Tolerance is not enough. Joyful acceptance of one another as brothers in the same nation is what will build a nation and not tear it down.

Malaysia is a democratic country. Don't like the government, vote opposition. The Malay is less than half of the population. You guys will definitely stand a chance. Don't like the country, go somewhere else. Nobody gonna stop you.

I just wonder, how many people like you out there. In the last general election, the Chinese and Indian voted BN overwhelmingly. So, where are your supporters? Why DAP still can't even capture Penang? Well, if DAP failed you, maybe it's time for you to create your own political party. Just don't talk BS here.

This post has been edited by 1+1: Jan 8 2006, 07:39 PM

[johnleemk]

I think the problem is that both sides have given each other too much leeway. I mean, really, I see no point in race-based parties. Lee Kuan Yew noted forty years ago: "How does telling a Malay bus driver that he should support the party of his Malay director (UMNO) and the Chinese bus conductor to join another party of his Chinese director (MCA) - how does that improve the standards of the Malay bus driver and the Chinese bus conductor who are both workers in the same company?" And I see no point in race-based schools either. Restore the English stream and slowly phase out the Chinese and Indian vernacular schools. Open up UiTM and the Malay junior colleges to non-Bumiputras. And of course, ketuanan Melayu has to go. The NEP can stay, but the premise that Malays/Bumiputras have certain birthrights that other Malaysians can never hope to attain is simply unjust.

[anakjakarta84]

I agree with you guys, that racial tension exists everywhere. What makes it more obvious in Malaysia is because the minorities are quite huge in number that the tension becomes even more evident.

[Iron Malayan]

Restore the English stream and slowly phase out the Chinese and Indian vernacular schools.

Good idea.

[109]

Yet again Rusty Malayan has contradicted himself. Very tolerant reply above.

[johnleemk]

Yet again Rusty Malayan has contradicted himself. Very tolerant reply above.

Were it not for the fact that he also advocated English-language education, I would disagree. It is "standard" for Malays/Bumiputras to grouch about vernacular education. Also note the conspicuous ommission of support for opening up the Malay vernacular schools like the Malay junior colleges and Bumi-only universities like UiTM.

[Protoculture]

Tolerance is not enough. It can never be enough. Until all Malaysians can think of themselves as Malaysians, forget about national unity. Look at Yugoslavia. The Slavs, Gypsies, etc. all tolerated one another as long as the government was strong and could keep them in check. When the government collapsed, everyone slaughtered one another, neighbours killing neighbours. In Rwanda, intermarriage wasn't enough. Even the fact that it was difficult to distinguish between Hutu and Tutsi wasn't enough. Fathers killed wives and children for being of Tutsi blood.

One day, Lee Kuan Yew joked with an Eurasian colleague of his that he would be the last Eurasian in Singapore. The Eurasian said, "No, not the last. We don't have Eurasians now. Only Singaporeans." Eurasians were the Bumiputra-equivalent when the Whites ruled Malaysia - the Whites only gave the plum postings to the Eurasians. But as far as this man was concerned, he was Singaporean. I don't think many non-Bumiputra (or even non-Malay0 Malaysians can say the same about Malaysia. Tolerance is not enough. Joyful acceptance of one another as brothers in the same nation is what will build a nation and not tear it down.

Let's see here .... the current system works. The majority of Msian Chinese & Indians have no problem with it. So keep continuing barking to the entrenched mountain ain't do jack a'tall, bud!

Now, given MY history of 13th May 69, ain't nobody ever thinking stepping onto racial lines or barriers. Thats where ISA comes in handy.

Besides, during Commies 2nd waves of insurgencies in 1970s-1980s, we don't slaughter or imprison or killing Malaysian Chinese (eventhough most local Commies were Chinese). The MAF & Govt. didn't make any propagandas painting MY Chinese as commies or even comrade at arms. Nope, we don't, cause ideology is as different to racial identity.

Tolerance the way it should have been. We don't crammed the Chinese & Indians to be assimilated to Malaysian society strata which has been done by Philippines, Indonesia & Thailand which later caused ethnic Chinese to lose their racial identities, cultures & familial names. We chose integration, where toleration becomes the mantra.

Deal with it, bunny boy!

[Protoculture]

I think the problem is that both sides have given each other too much leeway. I mean, really, I see no point in race-based parties. Lee Kuan Yew noted forty years ago: "How does telling a Malay bus driver that he should support the party of his Malay director (UMNO) and the Chinese bus conductor to join another party of his Chinese director (MCA) - how does that improve the standards of the Malay bus driver and the Chinese bus conductor who are both workers in the same company?" And I see no point in race-based schools either. Restore the English stream and slowly phase out the Chinese and Indian vernacular schools. Open up UiTM and the Malay junior colleges to non-Bumiputras. And of course, ketuanan Melayu has to go. The NEP can stay, but the premise that Malays/Bumiputras have certain birthrights that other Malaysians can never hope to attain is simply unjust.

You may see no point in racial-based political parties, but you sure as hell in somewhat 0.01 % whose opinion ain't do nothing to change the current system, supported by the overwhelmingly more than TWO-THIRDS of Malaysians, irregardless of race.

UiTM & MARA Junior Science Colleges are the bastion of Bumiputra strongholds. Given that Bumiputra rights being slowly but surely taken away by the Govt., the Bumis hopes & dreams are reserved to MARA, a 100% Bumi institution. MARA is the lifeblood of Bumis, dedicated to protect Bumis rights economically & academically. The non-bumis crowds wasting away opportunities when MARA Junior Science Colleges opened up their doors last time. This time around, the door is shut for good.

Ketuanan Melayu is DEFINITELY TO STAY. Accept the fact. Live with it. Ohh, I have no trouble accepting a non-Malay or non-Bumi PM .... But he gotta be a MUSLIM. Because in Malaysia, a Muslim is almost undeniably linked to Malay, & Malay culture.

Besides, remember Mahathir? His late father ain't a Malay, but of Indian ancestry of Malabari ethnicity. Only Mahathir claim Malay blood from his mother's side.

[johnleemk]

I'll remember you guys if I ever become PM. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/biggthumpup.gif) (J/k just to defuse tension a bit.)

Anyway, that's precisely my point - I am currently in the minority, which is why I am attempting to raise awareness and turn this minority into a majority. I reject much of the opposition because I think they are corrupt, nepotic, staid, or all of those. (You won't believe how much $hit I've gotten from both sides of the political spectrum because I refuse to support either BN or the opposition.)

This thinking of Bumi "bastions" and "strongholds" is exactly what I am talking about. Until we start thinking of "Malaysian" bastions and strongholds, forget about Malaysian national unity. The worry that Bumi rights are being eroded is absurdly laughable. Just five years ago, Ketuanan Melayu wasn't even in any of our textbooks. Now it's a term with a definition in the Form 3 Sejarah text. Today, even the richest Bumi tycoon can buy a mansion and a limousine and get discounts on them. He/she can receive shares in publicly listed companies for a substantial discount, and then sell those shares immediately for the full price. And so on. What erosion of Bumiputra rights? There isn't any. I wouldn't be surprised if those rights even began to expand, what with UMNO's talk of the New National Agenda (forthrightly admitted to be the revived NEP).

Of course, the worry is that the Bumiputra cannot compete if their rights are taken away. Fully understandable. That is why we have Article 153 and the NEP in the first place. However, there is no point in awarding places in MARA schools or UiTM to rich Bumis who can afford to pay their way. My proposal is to make the NNA either based on economic standing (with the race factor ignored), or limited only to Bumiputras of a certain economic standing. Thomas Sowell's famous study of affirmative action around the world has shown a major problem with these policies is that they tend to help the rich as well as the poor of a certain race. Eliminate the rich from this equation, and everyone wins. The rich can afford to pay their way into any good school. The poor can't, and since the Bumis still make up most of the disadvantaged, nobody can begrudge the poor Bumis a chance at a better education.

[Protoculture]

This thinking of Bumi "bastions" and "strongholds" is exactly what I am talking about. Until we start thinking of "Malaysian" bastions and strongholds, forget about Malaysian national unity. The worry that Bumi rights are being eroded is absurdly laughable. Just five years ago, Ketuanan Melayu wasn't even in any of our textbooks. Now it's a term with a definition in the Form 3 Sejarah text.

The term 'Ketuanan Melayu' exist well beyond recently. It started from Malacca Maritime Empire, lived on through fable Sejarah Melayu & within the close confine of Malays royal palaces.

Later, the Malays elites of the UMNO movement back in late 1940s & the likes of Tunku spouted the words during independence rallies.

Ketuanan Melayu continued to be lauded in every UMNO Assembly every year. Regardless what terms it mey deferred to depending on UMNO politician whims, it still alluded to KETUANAN MELAYU.

Yes, Bumiputra needs bastions. That bastion in political terms would be UMNO, indigenous Borneo BN parties, & even PAS. The bastion for economical & educational rights would be MARA.

However, there is no point in awarding places in MARA schools or UiTM to rich Bumis who can afford to pay their way. My proposal is to make the NNA either based on economic standing (with the race factor ignored), or limited only to Bumiputras of a certain economic standing

This assumption is WRONG. UiTM & affliated Mara Colleges (Mara Polytech Colleges, University of Kuala Lumpur, Institut Kemahiran Mara, Pusat Giat Mara) has long being the place for academically inferior Bumiputra students whose application to Govt. sponsored local universities & Polytechic institutes were rejected. In short, they're 2nd rate students. But the effective & relevant syllabus inspired from German technical schools, Japanese industrial curriculum & Britain & Australia system of education led MARA education institutes to churn out these 2nd class or 3rd class students into world-class graduates whose job employements are higher than local rubbish grads other local Govt. Universities seems fond to produce.

Besides, majority of MARA students were made up from lower & medium income Bumi families. Rich Malay kids would be shipped off to overseas studies, mostly Australia.

[johnleemk]

The term 'Ketuanan Melayu' exist well beyond recently. It started from Malacca Maritime Empire, lived on through fable Sejarah Melayu & within the close confine of Malays royal palaces.

Later, the Malays elites of the UMNO movement back in late 1940s & the likes of Tunku spouted the words during independence rallies.

Ketuanan Melayu continued to be lauded in every UMNO Assembly every year. Regardless what terms it mey deferred to depending on UMNO politician whims, it still alluded to KETUANAN MELAYU.

Yes, Bumiputra needs bastions. That bastion in political terms would be UMNO, indigenous Borneo BN parties, & even PAS. The bastion for economical & educational rights would be MARA.
This assumption is WRONG. UiTM & affliated Mara Colleges (Mara Polytech Colleges, University of Kuala Lumpur, Institut Kemahiran Mara, Pusat Giat Mara) has long being the place for academically inferior Bumiputra students whose application to Govt. sponsored local universities & Polytechic institutes were rejected. In short, they're 2nd rate students. But the effective & relevant syllabus inspired from German technical schools, Japanese industrial curriculum & Britain & Australia system of education led MARA education institutes to churn out these 2nd class or 3rd class students into world-class graduates whose job employements are higher than local rubbish grads other local Govt. Universities seems fond to produce.

Besides, majority of MARA students were made up from lower & medium income Bumi families. Rich Malay kids would be shipped off to overseas studies, mostly Australia.

"Ketuanan Melayu" the term did not exist until recently. Don't twist my words. And does this sound like "Ketuanan Melayu" to you? "...those who love and feel they owe undivided loyalty to this country, we will welcome them as Malayans. They must truly be Malayans, and they will have the same rights and privileges as the Malays." - Tunku Abdul Rahman in his speech accepting the leadership of UMNO after Dato' Onn's resignation. From page 31, Political Awakening by Tunku Abdul Rahman (1986), published by Pelanduk Publications.

Why do Bumiputra need bastions? Why? That is the question. You have not justified it. I know you think they need bastions. I do not know why you think so, except for that piss-poor excuse of "Ketuanan Melayu". And although we were talking about education in general, I mean applying the "poor Bumis only" thing to all levels of affirmative action. I see no reason why a Bumi tycoon should be getting discounts on his allocations of publicly-listed shares or subsidies for his new limousine.

[Protoculture]

"Ketuanan Melayu" the term did not exist until recently. Don't twist my words. And does this sound like "Ketuanan Melayu" to you? "...those who love and feel they owe undivided loyalty to this country, we will welcome them as Malayans. They must truly be Malayans, and they will have the same rights and privileges as the Malays." - Tunku Abdul Rahman in his speech accepting the leadership of UMNO after Dato' Onn's resignation. From page 31, Political Awakening by Tunku Abdul Rahman (1986), published by Pelanduk Publications.

I do not twist your words ... Ketuanan Melayu may become recent in today's text books, but widen your research, learn some Malay's Jawi writings, pour through evry darn Malay newspapers or nationalist mags from 1920s, 1930s up to late 1950s ... hell, you'll stumble the phrase 'Ketuanan Melayu'.

Ketuanan Melayu or Malay Hegemony has been understood well by MCA & MIC leaders. The phrase itself is the mantra of UMNO leadership.

Why do Bumiputra need bastions? Why? That is the question. You have not justified it. I know you think they need bastions. I do not know why you think so, except for that piss-poor excuse of "Ketuanan Melayu". And although we were talking about education in general, I mean applying the "poor Bumis only" thing to all levels of affirmative action. I see no reason why a Bumi tycoon should be getting discounts on his allocations of publicly-listed shares or subsidies for his new limousine.

Why we need bastion like MARA? The answer is very simple .... the Bumiputra leadership knows that in the long run, special rights for Bumiputras will be taken away bit by bit as Malaysian public becomes more mature politically. It has taken pains for UMNO leaders in 1960s to conceive the idea of MARA as the last bastion for defending Bumiputra's rights when in the future, all state & federal legislation may ditch & dismantle their rights. It'd be the days when meritocracy rule. As uneasy Bumiputra leaders may be, they realised that fateful day will come. Thus MARA is born.

Regarding 'affirmative action' that mostly covers NEP ideology. We see only favored Bumi towkays get richer. Other potential Bumi entrepreneurs gets shoved under the carpets. When favored Bumi towkays messed up, all Msian taxpayers money (irregardless of race) are being used to bail 'em out. In short, our political leaders fail us, the Msians, & misused the trust of Bumiputra majority.

[johnleemk]

I do not twist your words ... Ketuanan Melayu may become recent in today's text books, but widen your research, learn some Malay's Jawi writings, pour through evry darn Malay newspapers or nationalist mags from 1920s, 1930s up to late 1950s ... hell, you'll stumble the phrase 'Ketuanan Melayu'.

Ketuanan Melayu or Malay Hegemony has been understood well by MCA & MIC leaders. The phrase itself is the mantra of UMNO leadership.
Why we need bastion like MARA? The answer is very simple .... the Bumiputra leadership knows that in the long run, special rights for Bumiputras will be taken away bit by bit as Malaysian public becomes more mature politically. It has taken pains for UMNO leaders in 1960s to conceive the idea of MARA as the last bastion for defending Bumiputra's rights when in the future, all state & federal legislation may ditch & dismantle their rights. It'd be the days when meritocracy rule. As uneasy Bumiputra leaders may be, they realised that fateful day will come. Thus MARA is born.

Regarding 'affirmative action' that mostly covers NEP ideology. We see only favored Bumi towkays get richer. Other potential Bumi entrepreneurs gets shoved under the carpets. When favored Bumi towkays messed up, all Msian taxpayers money (irregardless of race) are being used to bail 'em out. In short, our political leaders fail us, the Msians, & misused the trust of Bumiputra majority.

If so, then it's funny how the Tunku's statements appear to support Ketuanan Melayu only insofar as the non-Malays remained loyal to their home countries (i.e. India, China). For instance, in the same speech I cited, he blasted the non-Malay Malayans who avoided fighting the Malayan Union because they still had ties to their home countries. However, he also said that those who decided to join Malaya would be treated equally with the Malays, which jives with the Reid Commission's original statement that Malay privileges should remain as the"Malays would be at a serious and unfair disadvantage compared with other communities if they were suddenly withdrawn," and that once they could stand on their own two feet, the preferences would "be reduced and should ultimately cease." If there are any non-Malay Malaysians at all whose loyalties lie with China/India, they are a very small minority. I think it's time that Ketuanan Melayu proponents accept this and retire their belief as outmoded - it worked when the non-Malays refused to join Malaysia, but it's no longer applicable to the new generation of non-Malays.

And as for MARA, I think it should be privately funded in such a case. The government has no business endorsing race-based criteria for affirmative action. And I definitely agree with you that most Bumis have been left out by the privileges, which is why I wouldn't mind if they were extended to only the poor Bumis (with the understanding that as the Bumis learn to help themselves, the privileges would be slowly reduced, as you said).

[Aranadhel]

*Grabbed myself a bag of popcorn & enjoying the debate that is preceeding.* (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/icon_wink.gif)

[Iron Malayan]

I see no reason why a Bumi tycoon should be getting discounts on his allocations of publicly-listed shares or subsidies for his new limousine.

Umm, which Bumi tycoon are you referring to ?

[johnleemk]

Umm, which Bumi tycoon are you referring to ?

Which planet have you been living on? Everywhere in the Klang Valley there are billboards and newspaper ads flaunting Bumi discounts on prime real estate and luxury cars. And it's well documented that the government doles out 30% of all new publicly-listed companies (except for certain exchanges) at a subsidised price to selected Bumis. It doesn't matter *which* tycoon. The point is that the Malays in the kampung aren't benefiting, and hell, even the lower-class urban Bumis don't benefit much from all these crap. They're more likely to rent a house, not buy it. The automobile discount may be worth it for these people, but I highly doubt any of them are receiving shares of publicly-listed companies.

[Iron Malayan]

And it's well documented that the government doles out 30% of all new publicly-listed companies (except for certain exchanges) at a subsidised price to selected Bumis

If its so well documented I would like to see some of those documents. How much discount are they getting ??????

[johnleemk]

If its so well documented I would like to see some of those documents. How much discount are they getting ??????

M. Bakri Musa (1999). The Malay Dilemma Revisited, pp. 187, 188. Merantau Publishers. ISBN 1-58348-367-5.

[pancaindera]

Hi all,

I'm not from Malaysia but have been there exactly seven times during the last 2 years for 2 - 4 weeks each time because I have a Indian-Malaysian fiancee. I love the country, the diversity...and of course the food lah.

Anyway. Always when I'm there I notice how seperate each ethnic group in Malaysia is living. They may work together in the same workplace though in private life there's not much mingling going on.

For an outsider it especially feels a bit tense between malays and chinese while the indians are a bit more open for mixing with other races. indians eat in chinese shops as well as in malay places though malays would never eat at a chinese restoran due to the pork but they are also never seen in indian places. 

I have to say that I didnt have much contact to malays when I'm in Malaysia, mainly with indians but also with chinese. Nevertheless it's really amazing how people talk bad about other races quite often. My future mother in law is especially invidious when she talks about malays.

I dont understand that cuz I think the malays are decent people though quite reserved. I never had any problems with malays or chinese though quite a lot of indian guys are really primitive in their behaviour - no matter if old or young. They like to stare like idiots when they see a whitey with an indian woman or make unsensitive comments. Perhaps some of them are just a bit limited in their brain capacity. Dunno know.

Anyway. on the surface Malaysia promotes harmony but I think under the surface not everything is alright in Malaysia. What do you think?

i guess by now you should have a clear picture of whats happening under the surface in malaysia. the gist of racial tensions exposed in this forum.
though i also must agree that this happens worldwide. the fact that we always publicise the fact that all is harmonious might put us in a worse position actually, cos then ppl will start judging and scrutinizing.