Where Did Nadene And Kets Came From, Where did Nadene and kets came from Options

[BishoujoHunter]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/confused.gif)
Where did kets(a siberian people closely related to sino-tibetan people)
Na-dene amerinds(inc. navajo) and kets came from since their language and features resemble tibetans

[Agent Smith]

Have you seen a documentary on PBS titled "The Journey of Man: A Genetic Odyssey"?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20...ofman.html#main

[whitewatcher]

The Ket and Other Yeniseian Peoples
©Edward J. Vajda

Introduction

The Ket are the sole survivors of an ancient group
believed to have originally lived throughout central
southern Siberia. Today there are about 1100 Ket
living mostly to the east of the middle reaches of the
Yenisei River. Their extinct relatives included the
Kotts, Assans, Arins, Baikots, and Pumpokols, all of
whom lived further upriver (that is, further to the
south) than the modern Ket before being assimilated to
the Russians or their Native Siberian neighbors during
the 17-19th centuries. (The Assans merged with the
Ewenki to the East; the Arins and Baikots merged with
the Turkic Khakas to the south; the Kotts became
Russified by the 1840's.) Only the most northerly
group has retained their language and ethnic identity
into the 20th century. Formerly called Ostyak, or
Yenisei-Ostyak (from a Turkic word meaning
"stranger"), the group is now known as the Ket, from
the tribe's word for "person." At one time the
northern group of Ket were also known by their tribal
name Imbak, while one of the southern groups was known
as Yugh (pronounced "yook"; often written "Yug").
During the 1960's it was discovered that the Yugh were
a separate ethnos with their own distinct, though
related language. The Yughs, along with their
language, dissappeared as a distinct ethnic entity by
the late 1980's, leaving the Imbaks as the sole
remaining Yeniseian people. The Ket, as well as the
Yughs and their extinct relatives are called
Yeniseians by linguists and ethnographers.

Linguistically and anthropologically, the Ket are one
of the most enigmatic people of Asia. The Yeniseian
peoples are thought to be descendents of some of the
earliest inhabitants of Central Southern Siberia,
while all of their neighbors seem to be relative
newcomers. DNA studies show affinities to the peoples
of Southeast Asia (Tibetans, Burmese, and others) not
shared by other Siberian peoples. The linguistic
evidence is even more striking. The Ket language,
still spoken by about 600 of the Ket, is entirely
different than any other language in Siberia. (The
extinct Yeniseian languages, which were recorded in
the 18th and 19th centuries by European exploreres,
were all fairly similar to modern Ket.) Linguists
believe that a proto-Yeniseian language existed 2000
or more years ago. This language, in turn, may have
been related to such far-flung languages as Basque in
Spain, Burushaski in northern India, the native
languages of the Caucusus, as well as Tibetan and
Chinese. Some linguists see an affinity between
proto-Yeniseian and such Native American languages as
Tlingit and Navajo, as well. Recently, linguists have
posited a superfamily called Dene-Causasian which
includes Yeniseian as one of its branches. If all of
these languages do stem from some common ancestor,
this ancient proto-language might have existed 20,000
or more years ago. Studying modern Ket is essential
for piecing together these ancient relationships.

The modern Ket are thought to have migrated to their
present location on the middle Yenisei from some point
closer to the Altai and Sayan mountains during the
past 2000 years (where they were probably neighbors to
the proto-Samoyeds. Ket legends tell of ancient
migrations north into the taiga to escape fierce
invaders. The legends tell of the tribe crossing a
huge mountain range to escape the Tystad, or stone
people. While we do not know who these stone people
were (perhaps ancient Indo-Europeans), it is fairly
certain that the mountain range in question was the
Sayan mountains on the Russo-Chinese border. These
Tystad may well have been some of the peoples who
forged the early steppe confederations of the Huns
(3rd century AD). Although the bulk of the peoples in
these confederations are thought to have been Turkic
speaking, there is some evidence that Ketic speakers
were also represented--perhaps those who did not flee
northward into the taiga were absorbed by the Huns.
Once in Central Siberia, the Ketic tribes moved north
again due to attacks by another fierce group, the
Kiliki. These Kiliki may well have been the fierce
Turkic Kirghiz (later called the Kazakhs) who rampaged
through southern Siberia in the 9th century AD. By
this time the Kets were far enough into the taiga to
avoid trouble from the steppe nomads. In the Yeniseian
river valley taiga, the Kets mixed with and probably
displaced peoples related to the Eskimo. The term Yugh
is the Eskimo word for "human being," which suggests
that the Yughs are Keticized Siberian aborigines
originally related to the Eskimo. There is additional
evidence for this connection in a number of other Ket
words, which seem borrowed from a language related to
Eskimo.

Studying pre-Russian place names confirms the Ket
belief in their southern origin, as do various Ket
ethnographic details. Most of the river names in
southern Siberia are of Ketic origin. Also, the
clothing of the taiga Ket seems to have originally
been developed for a more southern climate and later
adapted to more extreme northern conditions. The Ket
wore a type of loose-fitting robe or caftan unlike any
found elsewhere in the northern taiga. Later,
additions were made to the clothing which insulated it
and better safeguarded against the extreme cold of the
northern taiga. Ket men wore a type of scarf. There is
also evidence that the southernmost Yeniseian
peoples--the Arins and others-- had knowledge of iron
smelting, and participated in livestock raising,
features which the northermost Ket either lost during
their migrations into the forest zone or never
developed.

Culture of the Ket prior to Russification

The Ket, as the most northerly representatives of the
ancient Yeniseian tribes, lived in the taiga and were
nomadic hunters and gatherers. They began to come
under Russian influence in the early 1600's.

The basic occupation of the Ket was hunting in the
taiga. Squirrel pelts provided the most important
trade item. Hunting was originally done with sharp
wooden arrows tipped with a type of poison made from
decomposed fish oil. The northernmost Ket also
borrowed reindeer breeding from their Samoyedic
neighbors, but this occupation always remained
secondary to hunting and foraging. The Ket allowed
their reindeer to wander during summer and kept them
close to camp during winter. The northernmost Ket also
hunted wild reindeer. During spring and fall great
quantities of waterfowl were hunted. During summer the
Ket gathered fish from the river and dug a type of
wild lily bulb (sarana) from its banks. Dugout canoes
were used for fishing. The Ket also kept dogs to help
on the hunt. In the north, reindeer were used to carry
loads when the group moved from place to place; the
Ket also used their hunting dogs to carry small loads
during the winter hunt (which the Ket performed on
skis). Hunting and fishing were carried out on a
collective basis, with a clan moving together from
winter to summer lodgings; hunting and fishing
equipment were owned by the group not the individual.
The catch was likewise shared, with special renown
going to the successful hunter.

The Ket, particularly those in the south, summered on
a type of large, flatbottomed houseboat called ilimka.
This item was borrowed via Russian contact after the
18th century and was not a part of prehistoric
Yeniseian culture. In the warmer months, the Ket also
built tipis called qus with conical pole frames and
felt or bark covering. In winter the Ket lived in a
sort of dugout made of earth and logs called banggus.
During part of the winter the men were out hunting
while the women and children stayed home.

The Ket were a patriarchal society, with women in a
secondary role. The Imbat Ket were originally divided
into two exogamous phratries which exchanged marriage
partners. Marriages were arranged with a bride price
being paid to compensate for the loss of the woman,
who went to live with her husband's family.

Like other Native Siberians, the Ket were shamanists,
with the shaman serving as priest and healer. The Ket
believed that the whole world was populated by a
multitude of good and evil spirits. The sky spirit,
the male Es', was the embodiment of good, while his
wife, the earth spirit Hosedam (or Qosedam), was the
embodiment of evil who caused all sorts of sickness
and misfortune. The shamans (sening) interceded
between the human and spirit worlds. Reverence for the
bear also played an important role in Ket belief.
Also, each group had a totem animal which it was
forbidden to kill. Ket shamanism is in most details
very similar to that of their southern Samoyedic
neighbors, the Selkups.

Ket buried their dead in the earth, along with
personal possessions, which were broken up before
being put in the tomb; sometimes dogs were also killed
and placed with the deceased.

The Ket folk hero is Balna (a name which means "cherry
stick") who is believed to have been an actual person
of great strength who fought successfully against
hostile neighbors. (Ket-Selkup relations were good and
most of the fighting occured with the Nenets to the
north and the Ewenki to the east.) The native folk
instrument is a type of mouth harp called the pymel.

The Ket today. Today the Ket live in small, riverside
villages and are no longer nomadic. They are nominally
Christians, but shamanistic beliefs persist. Fewer
than half of the 1100 Ket speak their native language
with any fluency, while nearly all speak Russian.
During perestroika (1988) an alphabet based on
Cyrillic (which is the name of the Russian style of
alphabet) was devised for Ket, and today the language
is taught in the first three grades of the local
schools, but it is losing ground to Russian in
everyday life. There is increased intermarriage with
Russians, and the survival of the unique Ket language
as a medium of everyday communication beyond the next
two generations is in doubt.

A.P.Dulson is a coeval of the century, for he was born
on the 9th of February 1900 in a peasant’s family and
spent his childhood in the village of Krasnopolje
(formerly Preis) of the Samara region. His father,
Peter Egorovich, having reached the status of a clerk
(a village scribe in the Soviet village
council), was striving to give a better
education for his children. Andreas Dulson fulfilled
his father’s will and all through his life he studied
and worked thoroughly in educational field. He
displayed a great interest in languages and their
diversity, even being a secondary school student.
Not only European languages in which he made a
considerable progress (Latin, Greek, French and
English) but such as Chinese drew his attention as
well.

He proceeded his further education in Saratov
University (1924) where he began to study first
at the faculty of mathematics and then at the
philological faculty. It was under the influence of
the famous philologists N.N.Durnovo and
G.Dinges whose lectures A.Dulson happened to
listen several times that he decided to study at the
philological faculty and the rest of his life was
connected with philological problems.

His first investigations concerned the Low German
dialects in the Saratov region. Those years were
difficult enough therefore young Dulson combined his
practical work in the field of education (a rural
teacher, an inspector of education) with collecting
dialectal material. From time to time he took part in
archaeological work which interested him greatly. He
acquired some skill in these undertakings still being
a schoolboy. Later on all this experience was of
great help to the scientist in organising and
fulfilling broad-scaled work on the problem of the
origin of indigenous peoples and their languages in
Siberia.

Then comes his work in Saratov University (1930) and
his post graduate courses in Moscow (1931)
where he had possibilities to be in contact with
such well-known philologists as R.I.Shor,
M.N.Peterson, A.M.Selischev, R.I.Avanesov, N.J.Marr
and then the defence of his candidate’s thesis in
1938 "Old Urbakh dialect" and the doctor’s one in
1939 "The problem of mixing dialects".

At the beginning of the Second World War in the autumn
of 1941 A.P.Dulson was exiled to Siberia, to Tomsk.
Since that time he headed the German Department in the
Pedagogical Institute and delivered lectures in
general linguistics at the University.

A.P.Dulson brought up the whole generation of
linguists in the field of Germanic languages (it
refers to his first period in Tomsk) and aboriginal
languages of Siberia. 48 scientists carried out
their research work under his supervision, 7 of them
later on became doctors of philology, professors.
Dulson's love to languages brought him into contact
with indigenous peoples of Siberia. In 1947 A.Dulson
worked out a plan of investigation of indigenous
peoples and their languages.

His idea was to investigate and describe not only
languages of these peoples but their history, culture,
ethnography and archaeology. As the result of
A.Dulson`s archaeological work there appeared a number
of his papers such as "Archaeological monuments of the
Tomsk region", "Archaeological map of the Tomsk
region" (1954), which included 600 monuments and
others.

Only using the data of all the aspects it was possible
to penetrate into the depth of the origin of Siberian
peoples and their languages and explain many
mysterious phenomena and similarities which were found
between languages spoken far away from each other,
e.g. Khanty and Hungarian, Ket and Iberian-Caucausian
etc. The territory of Siberia is very important for
linguistic studies: various nationalities settle
there. At least 4 groups lived there for certain:
Turkic, Selkup, Ugric and Ket. Their ties and
interrelations during a considerable period of time,
the mixture of dialects, the place names left by them
represent an exceptionally great interest for science.

First A.Dulson started to collect the materials in
history, ethnography, archaeology and languages alone
setting off on expeditions along the rivers of the
Tomsk region. Soon he carried away with this idea
many scientists of the University and Pedagogical
Institute. Gradually he drew more and more people
into the problem of the origin of indigenous peoples
and their languages. For the sake of a better
exchange of information and opinions he organised
all Union scientific conferences with the support
of the Tomsk University and Novosibirsk
Department of Siberian languages of the Academy of
Science . These conferences were held in Tomsk in
1958, 1969 during his lifetime and in 1973, 1976 after
his death. To collect the material A.Dulson alone or
with his desciples made 35 expeditions to the North of
the Tomsk and Krasnojarsk regions. The expeditions
were thoroughly prepared and consisted of 3 stages: 1)
the preliminary work (training in transcription
symbols); 2) field work (collecting material, work
with the speakers); 3) detailed study of the collected
material. As to the toponimic material the
investigations were directed at analysing all the
components of the place names beginning with the last
layer, which was often connected with one of modern
languages, then the next layer - substratum and the
inner one (if it existed) - subsubstratum. But to
check the results one had to follow the opposite
order: subsubstratum - substratum and a modern
language. In collecting linguistic materials A.Dulson
considered very important to observe the following
points of speech situations: a) communication among
the members of the family; b) communication among the
village community; c) communication at meetings and
gatherings; d) communication with neighbours; e)
communication with strangers.

A.Dulson investigated and described Chulym-Turkic
people and their language, the place names left by the
Kets, Selkups, Khanty, Altaic and other peoples of
Siberia, the Selkup language of the Tomsk region, the
structure of Ket, certain features of the languages of
Khanty, Mansy, Nganasans, Shohrs, Evenki. All these
languages have no writing and they refer to the
so-called disappearing languages therefore everything
that is fixed and collected is and will be of great
value.

The collection of word-stock of Siberian languages was
especially important for the problem of the origin of
different people. Thus for example the fact that the
Selkups have many words of Iranian origin testifies
that this people who are living in the far North, were
living earlier somewhere in the South close to
Iranians. A.Dulson worked out special program for
investigating languages of indigenous peoples. It
included 91 groups of words with their forms and 917
sentences, which permitted to define the place of a
certain dialect or a language among the rest of the
dialects of this group of languages and their main
grammatical forms. The collection of such materials
was aimed at creating dictionaries of these languages
and further comparison of all Siberian languages.

During his life time A.Dulson himself and his
disciples gathered word materials for compiling
dictionaries predominantly of Ket (120000 cards),
Selkup (80000 cards), less of Chulym-Turkic, Nganasan,
Dolgan (334000 word-cards all in all) and a very rich
collection of geographical names (242000 cards) of
Siberia, Far East and Central Asia. All linguistic
materials were collected in 155 volumes. Each
volume contains 800-1000 pages of school exercise
books.

A.Dulson dedicated a great part of his work to the
investigation and description of the Ket language
whose importance is paramount. As it is became known
later the Kets were the most ancient inhabitants of
the Southern and Middle part of West Siberia and the
Krasnojarsk region. They lived there earlier than
Turkic and samoyedic peoples did, for the Kets had
left the trace in place names on the above-mentioned
territory. Ket refers to such a type of languages in
which the building up of verbal forms was not clear up
till recent time.

A.Dulson managed not only to make full description of
the language but also to decipher its verbal system.
His book "The Ket Language" was generally recognised
and highly estimated among linguists and A.Dulson got
a State Prize for it. He proved that formerly the Ket
population extended to the vast territories of West
and Middle Siberia and typologically their language
had many common features with other languages of
Siberia. Judging by the Ket place names they were the
earliest inhabitants of Siberia. But more striking
typological and even sometimes material similarities
were discovered between Yenisseian and the languages,
which nowadays are spoken far away from that place:
Caucausian, Burushaski, Burmese and American Indian
languages.

The similarities among these languages led A.Dulson to
hypothesis about a durable prehistoric contact of the
remote forefathers of these peoples in Central Asia
and it was possible to reconstruct the language of a
pure noun-class structure. It was a very ancient
linguistic community in Central Asia, which existed 5
thousand years ago.

The linguistic data showed that the contacts of
Yenisseian languages with Caucausian languages were
later than with Basque and Burushaski not to speak
about the Indian languages of America. This fact
permitted to assume that Indians diverged first from
that Union, then the Basques and Burushaski and later
on the Caucausian people. Taking into consideration
the Indian settlements in America to be 15 thousand
years ago, A.Dulson approximately defined the
Caucasian-Yenisseian language contact at 6-7 thousand
years ago.

He devoted his last period of life to Yenisseian
languages and their comparison with other language
families. Ket having preserved the most ancient
structure in the conjugation system gave the key to
the explanation of the conjugation system in such
languages as Finno-Ugric, Uralo-Altaic, and
Indoeuropean, which was based on pronouns. A.Dulson
also noticed typological similarities in the structure
of case-markers in Yeniseian and Indo-European. In
his opinion the contacts between Yeniseian and
Indo-European peoples could have existed even earlier
than the Hun community in the North of Central Asia,
that is not during the contacts of Indo-Europeans with
the Huns on the territory of Europe.

A.Dulson proved that investigation of Siberian
languages was not only important for revealing their
contacts and origin but for solving a number of
theoretical problems of general linguistics.
Dulson`s linguistic school proceeds his undertakings
in Siberian languages working in close contacts with
specialists in archaeology, ethnography and history
organising almost every year scientific conferences in
Tomsk at which further data on the problem are
discussed. The scientists from different cities of
Russia and even from Hungary, Germany and Japan often
take part in them. Some joined expeditions with the
participants from these countries were undertaken to
the North of the Tomsk region where the indigenous
population resides.

[BishoujoHunter]

I think may be that theory is true that is maybe why hmongs are pushed south

[whitewatcher]

There would be no need for pushing as the Hmong-Mien (Miao-Yao) groups were already tucked "safe" in SE Asia not in North Asia where the Na-Dene and Yeniseian groups were.