Ancestors Of Native Americans, Ancestors of Native Americans Options

[BishoujoHunter]

I think amerindians are very different from each other since they come from different migrations
1.Yangtze Valley Culture-Group B deletion and lingustic similarities
2.Jomon-Jomon potery in peru
3.North China-Similarities in tools
4.Siberia-some similarities
5.Europe-x marker
6.South Asia(there were negrito-like people in america)
they do not belong to one race but many races that migrated to america

This post has been edited by BishoujoHunter: Apr 21 2004, 12:43 AM

[abdulrahim]

Theres also alot of evidence of north africans migrating to the americas!

[whitewatcher]

like?....

[Kulong]

Theres also alot of evidence of north africans migrating to the americas!

Not to mention penguins from Antarctica! (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

[Agent Smith]

I think amerindians are not different they come from different migrations

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) This sentence is an oxymoron.

[BishoujoHunter]

I think amerindians are not different they come from different migrations

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) This sentence is an oxymoron.

I corrected it!

[whitewatcher]

in response to dalawapo's request,
no problem man! here:

Based on my sources (and understanding), American Indian and Amerind seem to denote roughly the same groups. Although both terms can be misleading at some times... So in addition, we use the terms Native American, Aboriginal American, Indigenous American, Paleo-American, Pre-Columbian American etc. However again, the latter terms are used only generally and loosely as a "lumping" of all Native American peoples, whatever languages they speak; while Amerind refers loosely to non-NaDene and non-EskAleut speaking groups.

[quote]/John Olsen/
Notes on Genes Chapter 6: America (7/30/02)
....
6.2. Occupation of America

The peopling of America took place with the passage of nomadic Siberian hunters from Northeast Asia to Alaska. However, the oldest sites are not in Alaska, but rather in South America. Some archaeologists believe that the earliest entry into North American was 30-35,000 BP, while others hold to a later date of 15,000 BP. The last glaciation occurred 30-13,000 BP with a peak at 18,000 BP. In late glacial times glaciers occupied almost all of Canada and part of the north-central United States. An ice-free corridor is thought to have existed between the eastern edge of the Rockies and the Canadian glaciers. Due to the water being sequestered as polar ice, a wide and flat land bridge (Beringia) connected Asia and America from 25 to 15,000 BP.

Several Siberian sites (Fig. 6.2.2) might have served as home bases for the migrants to America: Mezirich on the Dnieper (18-14,000 BP), Dyukhthai on the Aldan (14-12,000 BP), and Ushki Lake in Kamchatka (12-10,000 BP).

The earliest archaeological sites in central Alaska (Fig. 6.2.2) give no robust evidence of human occupation before 15,000 BP. In the central United States there are several sites dated between 16 and 11,000 BP. In South America there are four major sites with dates ranging from 32 to 14,000 BP, but there is considerable disagreement about the reliablility of the older dates

A second migration (15-10,000 BP) is named after the Na-Dene family of languages spoken by these people. They settled in southern Alaska and on the northwestern coast of North America. About 1000 C.E. some Na-Dene groups (e.g. Navajo) migrated further south.

The third migration was that of the Eskimo-Aleut (ca. 10,000 BP), with the Aleuts occupying the Aleutian islands and the Eskimos occupying Alaska and the northern coast of North America and Greenland. The three migration theory (Greenberg et al. 1986, Greenberg and Ruhlen 1992) is based on linguistic, dental, and genetic information.

Linguistics :
Greenberg (1987) claims that there are only three families of (Native American) languages: Eskimo-Aleut, Na-Dene, and Amerind (see Map 7, Ruhlen). The Amerind family includes most North American languages and all Central and South American languages.

The Eskimo-Aleut family comprises 10 languages and 85,000 speakers; Aleut is spoken by 700 people in the Aleutian islands. Three Eskimo languages are spoken by 600 inhabitants of Siberia. The Asian Eskimo languages belong to the Yupik subgroup, found primarily in southwestern Alaska. The Eskimo living on the Arctic coast of North America and Greenland speak Alaskan Inuit, Canadian Inuit, and Greenland Inuit, which are often considered to be three segments of a continuous dialect chain stretching from northern Alaska to Greenland.

The Na-Dene family is spoken in northwestern North America and consists of two languages, Haida (300 speakers) and Tlingit (2000 speakers), as well as the Athabaskan subfamily made up of 30 languages spoken by some 70,000 speakers in eastern Alaska and western Canada and a southern group of about 130,000 Apache and Navajo in Arizona and New Mexico.

The Amerind family contains 583 languages spoken by 18 million speakers. This family may be subdivided into Northern Amerind, Central Amerind, Chibchan-Paezan, the 20 Andean languages, Equatorial-Tucanoan, and Ge-Pano-Carib.

Phylogenetic analysis (Fig. 6.9.1)
This genetic tree of 23 American tribes grouped according to linguistic criteria is interesting for several reasons. The tree is divided into two main branches. The upper branch consists mainly of Eskimo groups with North Na-Dene and Canadian Na-Dene included as well. The lower branch consists mostly of Amerind groups with South Na-Dene slipped in. The principal component map (Fig. 6.9.2) based on the same data as the genetic tree, shows the South Na-Dene squarely located with the North Amerind tribes and the North Na-Dene grouped with Arctic peoples. Clearly the Na-Dene groups have experienced considerably genetic exchange with their neighbors.

Summary of genetic history
The genetic patterns in the Americas fully confirm the three waves of migration suggested by dental and linguistic evidence. Eskimos, the last wave, fairly rapidly settled the Arctic coastal line and rarely occupied the interior. In Greenland they may have mixed with Caucasoids ((Scandinavians)). The linguistic and geographic split between northern and southern Na-Dene also appears in the genetic picture. Amerinds show a more complex picture. In North America there is a band of Caucasoid admixture across the continent. In South America there are three major genetic regions: the Andes, the Amazon basin, and the southern plateau. The genetic picture within the regions is so variable that an enormous amount of genetic drift must have occurred. The extreme fragmentation of the linguistic map, especially in South America, can be attributed to the high mobility of the Amerind tribes. This may explain the poor correlation between genetics, geography, and linguistics in this region.
unquote/John Olsen/

My colleague Glen however, objects to "lumping all non-Nostratic and non-NaDene groups into one Amerind group. It's a bit more complicated" he thinks. And he's right, as the article above also suggests of the varied "Amerind" groups.

I quote from him:
For example, I can think of one problem, namely the Olmec. They pop into existence and seem to carry with them a lot of style elements far too reminiscent of what we find in China. Some people think that they are Chinese. I take a more moderateview that they brought with them, Chinese-influenced motifs across the Pacific and that they may in fact have been Austronesian speakers or speakers of some related language group.

So... if there's potential for influence between Old and New Worlds like this, as I think there was, one would have to hesitate on simply lumping all non-SinoDene and non-EskAleut languages together as "Amerind" like Greenberg did. There are many languages that still need to be classified in South America. Who knows whether some are related to Asian or Pacific language groups for all we know!
/Glen Gordon/


Regards,
/whitewatcher/

This post has been edited by whitewatcher: Apr 21 2004, 09:44 PM

[BishoujoHunter]

[QUOTE=whitewatcher,Apr 21 2004, 10:43 PM] in response to dalawapo's request,
no problem man! here:

Based on my sources (and understanding), American Indian and Amerind seem to denote roughly the same groups. Although both terms can be misleading at some times... So in addition, we use the terms Native American, Aboriginal American, Indigenous American, Paleo-American, Pre-Columbian American etc. However again, the latter terms are used only generally and loosely as a "lumping" of all Native American peoples, whatever languages they speak; while Amerind refers loosely to non-NaDene and non-EskAleut speaking groups.

[quote]/John Olsen/
Notes on Genes Chapter 6: America (7/30/02)
....
6.2. Occupation of America

The peopling of America took place with the passage of nomadic Siberian hunters from Northeast Asia to Alaska. However, the oldest sites are not in Alaska, but rather in South America. Some archaeologists believe that the earliest entry into North American was 30-35,000 BP, while others hold to a later date of 15,000 BP. The last glaciation occurred 30-13,000 BP with a peak at 18,000 BP. In late glacial times glaciers occupied almost all of Canada and part of the north-central United States. An ice-free corridor is thought to have existed between the eastern edge of the Rockies and the Canadian glaciers. Due to the water being sequestered as polar ice, a wide and flat land bridge (Beringia) connected Asia and America from 25 to 15,000 BP.

Several Siberian sites (Fig. 6.2.2) might have served as home bases for the migrants to America: Mezirich on the Dnieper (18-14,000 BP), Dyukhthai on the Aldan (14-12,000 BP), and Ushki Lake in Kamchatka (12-10,000 BP).

The earliest archaeological sites in central Alaska (Fig. 6.2.2) give no robust evidence of human occupation before 15,000 BP. In the central United States there are several sites dated between 16 and 11,000 BP. In South America there are four major sites with dates ranging from 32 to 14,000 BP, but there is considerable disagreement about the reliablility of the older dates

A second migration (15-10,000 BP) is named after the Na-Dene family of languages spoken by these people. They settled in southern Alaska and on the northwestern coast of North America. About 1000 C.E. some Na-Dene groups (e.g. Navajo) migrated further south.

The third migration was that of the Eskimo-Aleut (ca. 10,000 BP), with the Aleuts occupying the Aleutian islands and the Eskimos occupying Alaska and the northern coast of North America and Greenland. The three migration theory (Greenberg et al. 1986, Greenberg and Ruhlen 1992) is based on linguistic, dental, and genetic information.

Linguistics :
Greenberg (1987) claims that there are only three families of (Native American) languages: Eskimo-Aleut, Na-Dene, and Amerind (see Map 7, Ruhlen). The Amerind family includes most North American languages and all Central and South American languages.

The Eskimo-Aleut family comprises 10 languages and 85,000 speakers; Aleut is spoken by 700 people in the Aleutian islands. Three Eskimo languages are spoken by 600 inhabitants of Siberia. The Asian Eskimo languages belong to the Yupik subgroup, found primarily in southwestern Alaska. The Eskimo living on the Arctic coast of North America and Greenland speak Alaskan Inuit, Canadian Inuit, and Greenland Inuit, which are often considered to be three segments of a continuous dialect chain stretching from northern Alaska to Greenland.

The Na-Dene family is spoken in northwestern North America and consists of two languages, Haida (300 speakers) and Tlingit (2000 speakers), as well as the Athabaskan subfamily made up of 30 languages spoken by some 70,000 speakers in eastern Alaska and western Canada and a southern group of about 130,000 Apache and Navajo in Arizona and New Mexico.

The Amerind family contains 583 languages spoken by 18 million speakers. This family may be subdivided into Northern Amerind, Central Amerind, Chibchan-Paezan, the 20 Andean languages, Equatorial-Tucanoan, and Ge-Pano-Carib.

Phylogenetic analysis (Fig. 6.9.1)
This genetic tree of 23 American tribes grouped according to linguistic criteria is interesting for several reasons. The tree is divided into two main branches. The upper branch consists mainly of Eskimo groups with North Na-Dene and Canadian Na-Dene included as well. The lower branch consists mostly of Amerind groups with South Na-Dene slipped in. The principal component map (Fig. 6.9.2) based on the same data as the genetic tree, shows the South Na-Dene squarely located with the North Amerind tribes and the North Na-Dene grouped with Arctic peoples. Clearly the Na-Dene groups have experienced considerably genetic exchange with their neighbors.

Summary of genetic history
The genetic patterns in the Americas fully confirm the three waves of migration suggested by dental and linguistic evidence. Eskimos, the last wave, fairly rapidly settled the Arctic coastal line and rarely occupied the interior. In Greenland they may have mixed with Caucasoids ((Scandinavians)). The linguistic and geographic split between northern and southern Na-Dene also appears in the genetic picture. Amerinds show a more complex picture. In North America there is a band of Caucasoid admixture across the continent. In South America there are three major genetic regions: the Andes, the Amazon basin, and the southern plateau. The genetic picture within the regions is so variable that an enormous amount of genetic drift must have occurred. The extreme fragmentation of the linguistic map, especially in South America, can be attributed to the high mobility of the Amerind tribes. This may explain the poor correlation between genetics, geography, and linguistics in this region.
unquote/John Olsen/

My colleague Glen however, objects to "lumping all non-Nostratic and non-NaDene groups into one Amerind group. It's a bit more complicated" he thinks. And he's right, as the article above also suggests of the varied "Amerind" groups.

I quote from him:
For example, I can think of one problem, namely the Olmec. They pop into existence and seem to carry with them a lot of style elements far too reminiscent of what we find in China. Some people think that they are Chinese. I take a more moderateview that they brought with them, Chinese-influenced motifs across the Pacific and that they may in fact have been Austronesian speakers or speakers of some related language group.

So... if there's potential for influence between Old and New Worlds like this, as I think there was, one would have to hesitate on simply lumping all non-SinoDene and non-EskAleut languages together as "Amerind" like Greenberg did. There are many languages that still need to be classified in South America. Who knows whether some are related to Asian or Pacific language groups for all we know!
/Glen Gordon/


Regards,
/whitewatcher/ [/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]Mother Tongues Trace Steps of Earliest Americans


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ann Gibbons


From 12 to 17 February, some 5400 people descended on Philadelphia for the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS, which publishes Science), celebrating its 150th anniversary this year. President Bill Clinton addressed a packed hall, unveiling Neil Lane as his next science adviser and Rita Colwell as the next NSF director (Science, 20 February, p. 1122). But there were more reasons to celebrate: symposia on everything from the earliest Americans to martian life-forms, two of the topics featured in this special news section.

When several prominent archaeologists reached a consensus last year that humans lived in South America at least 12,500 years ago, their announcement struck a lethal blow to what had been a neat picture of the peopling of the Americas--that the first settlers were big-game hunters who had swept over the Bering land bridge connecting Asia and North America about 11,000 years ago. But this revised view of prehistory, based on 2 decades of study of the South American site called Monte Verde in Chile, has spawned a new mystery: When did the ancestors of Monte Verde's inhabitants first set foot in North America? Archaeologists trying to address that question have come up empty-handed, as there are few reliably dated digs in America older than the Chilean site.

At the AAAS meeting, however, a possible answer emerged from another field--linguistics. Using known rates of the spread of languages and people, Johanna Nichols, a linguist at the University of California, Berkeley, estimates that it would have taken about 7000 years for a population to travel from Alaska to Chile.
Because that would put the first Americans' arrival squarely in the middle of the last major glacial advance, Nichols proposes that "the first settlers began to enter the
New World well before the height of glaciation"--earlier than 22,000 years ago.

That date is early but is in accord with recent genetic studies suggesting that the diversity of DNA across American Indian populations must have taken at least
30,000 years to develop (Science, 4 October 1996, p. 31). In addition, Nichols's extensive analysis of Northern Hemisphere languages also suggests that several
groups of Asians entered the New World, where they adapted rapidly to a range of habitats and adopted diverse ways of hunting and gathering.

This picture is winning favor with linguists. "I believe that her general analysis of the linguistic situation in the Americas is essentially right," says linguist Victor Golla of
Humboldt State University in Arcata, California. "We need a much longer period of diversification among American linguistic stocks than the 11,500 years" allowed
by the old view, he says. And although not totally embracing the linguistic findings, archaeologists acknowledge that, combined with other recent findings, Nichols's
results indicate that the old, simple view of the peopling of the Americas is dead. "The bottom line," says University of Kentucky, Lexington, archaeologist Tom
Dillehay, who excavated Monte Verde, is that "the picture is a lot more complex than it was."

To try to get a better fix on how long it would have taken people entering the New World to get to Monte Verde, Nichols surveyed 24 language families that had spread over vast distances, such as Eskimoan languages that traveled from Alaska to Greenland and Turkic tongues that migrated from Siberia to central Europe. She found that the fast-moving languages that spread on foot--the only way the first American settlers could travel--moved 200 kilometers per century on average.
With this yardstick, Nichols calculated that even if early Americans made a beeline, taking the shortest routes over the 16,000 kilometers of varied terrain from Alaska to southern Chile, the trek would have taken at least 7000 years. This would have put the Monte Verdeans' ancestors in Alaska when glaciers made it "probably impossible" to enter the continent, she says. Instead, Nichols argues, the evidence "strongly suggests" a migration before a major glacial advance began 22,000 years ago.

Nichols checked her result against those obtained by other methods. For example, the New World has 140 language families--almost half of the world's total--and she estimated how long it would have taken this rich diversity of tongues to develop. Nichols began by surveying nearly all the language families of the Northern Hemisphere, from Basque to Indo-European, to see how often new language families have split off from an ancestral stock. She found that, on average, 1.5 new language families arose in each ancestral stock over the last 6000 years. Plugging that rate into computer models--which included an allowance for new migrations that carried in new languages after the glaciers retreated--yielded 40,000 years as the minimum time required to produce so many language families.

Nichols also found that languages along the coasts of the Pacific Rim, from Papua New Guinea north to Alaska and then down the west coast of the Americas, share
a remarkable set of grammatical and phonological features, such as the sound "m" in the second-person pronoun (the singular "you" in English), verb order, and -numerical classifiers--words used in some languages when a number modifies a noun. These features set apart the coastal language families from those farther inland, indicating that coastal tongues were probably imported by later settlers.

These kinds of features prompted Nichols to propose the following scenario: The first immigrants from Asia crossed the Bering land bridge "well before" 22,000 years ago and made it to South America. After the glaciers retreated, some people spread north, where they gave rise to the Southwest's Clovis culture, perhaps, and to other peoples. Meanwhile, human beings were again on the move along the Pacific Coast in Asia, with some language families heading south to Papua New Guinea and others north over the land bridge into Alaska--where they could have crossed once the ice sheets melted 12,000 years ago. Yet another group arrived at least 5000 years ago, she argues, giving rise to the Eskimo-Aleut family of languages.

These early dates from linguistics and genetics are prompting archaeologists to reexamine and take more seriously their earliest sites of human occupation, including possible signs of a human presence at Monte Verde as early as 33,000 years ago, says Dillehay. "These findings of great antiquity from linguistics and genetics help us out, but in the end, we have to get the actual time dimension from the archaeological record." To linguists, however, a thousand words are worth a fossil.[/QUOTE]




Actually the ryukyuan submerged platforms can be a clue to the distributions of those languages actually those languages like miao-yao,andean,some other Amerind languages,austronesian,tai,japanese-ryukyuan,some sinicized languages and korean i actually group those in the language group Americo-Austro-Tai/Yangtze valley civilization languages i have a website about that but unfinished i call the Sino-Dene speakers hua

This post has been edited by BishoujoHunter: Apr 22 2004, 05:20 AM

[BishoujoHunter]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/20..._bajaskull.html
negritos are first americans

[whitewatcher]

present evidence "beyond reasonable doubt" before saying ACTUALLY, or IN FACT.

the term Negrito applies loosely to those in SE Asia, whether or not any related peoples ever reached the Americas.

[BishoujoHunter]

present evidence "beyond reasonable doubt" before saying ACTUALLY, or IN FACT.

the term Negrito applies loosely to those in SE Asia, whether or not any related peoples ever reached the Americas.

here is the proof Andaman
http://www.andaman.org/book/chapter53/text53.htm

This post has been edited by BishoujoHunter: Apr 23 2004, 12:47 AM

[whitewatcher]

it's called a theory/hypothesis Bhunter..... we can't be 110% sure about things like that... not yet.

[Shroom Man 777]

Don't bother correcting him. He always does things like this. Grabbing links, copying and pasting entire articles and so forth while adding five word phrases to add a distinct flavor of irritation, something like a bad rash.

[Agent Smith]

(IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif)

Well I wouldn't put it so harsh ...... but yeah, he does has the tendency to put up bizzare links to fringe anthropology theories and call them facts.

[BishoujoHunter]

Don't bother correcting him. He always does things like this. Grabbing links, copying and pasting entire articles and so forth while adding five word phrases to add a distinct flavor of irritation, something like a bad rash.

Wag ka'ng mananabat usapang seryoso ito

This post has been edited by BishoujoHunter: Apr 23 2004, 08:00 PM

[BishoujoHunter]

it's called a theory/hypothesis Bhunter..... we can't be 110% sure about things like that... not yet.

I have proofs

1.Yangtze Valley Culture-Haplogroup B and lingustic similarities
Haplogroup B is the mtdna Haplogroup w/ 9-bp deletion that is found in japan,southern china,korea,southeast asia and also found in America and there are similarities between the asian carriers and the american carriers-Their languages have similarities like numeral classifiers
2.Jomon-Jomon potery in peru
(IMG:http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/024/english/kataru/hanne/peruu/images/p2.jpg)
3.North China-Similarities in tools ,those 16,000 yr old tools in Meadow croft resemble ones found in north china made 28-29,000 yrs ago
4.Siberia-some similarities
5.Europe-x marker
6.South Asia(there were negrito-like people in america)-Luzia's skull is negroid and resembles negritos

they do not belong to one race but many races that migrated to America
However about the Negritos in South America I have pictures of them I will post them I call them a fact because I have proofs
(IMG:http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/430000/images/_430944_face300.jpg)
:genius:

This post has been edited by BishoujoHunter: Apr 23 2004, 08:56 PM

[whitewatcher]

bhunter, whether you DO have proofs or not, their still considered hypotheses.. theories... that's how our science works... not to mention, they're not anythin' new...

they do not belong to one race but many races that migrated to America

Yes, we (I) know, we agree.... we don't have objections on that one.... I already quoted a similar theory I agreed with, didn't I?...

Note: that picture of you've linked is called a reconstruction... REEEEconstruction... it is not "110% Cosmic Truth".... unless, that pic is really a real photograph of a decapitated 20thousand-year-old South American Negrito huh?!

However, I must repeat, we can not be 110% sure of anything this controversial YET in our mainstream fields.... though we're beginning to rise above the controversy behind macro-linguistics et al, but still, we can't be totally sure of anything YET.
to be recognised a fact, the hypothesis/theory should be presented with substantial evidence beyond reasonable doubt (walang-kaduda-duda)... there.
It's one thing to believe "our theories" are proven by evidence we personally see as reasonable and fit to be acknowledged... but it's another thing for it to be acknowleged by the greater whole.... that's how our science works... it's not just you.

:peace:

[BishoujoHunter]

Actually there were negrito-like people in america they are now extinct after european contact
last living Guaycura
(IMG:http://www.andaman.org/book/chapter53/pericu/melina.jpg)