Korean and Manchu, What's the relationship? Options

[gangi788]

Some Mongolian members have asked what is the blood relationship between Manchu and Korean? I would like to know myself. Below is a bit of background information.

Nurhaci

Also known as Emperor Tai Zu, Nurhaci or Nurgaci (Chinese: 努爾哈赤; Manchu: ) (1559-September 30, 1626; r. 1616-September 30, 1626) was the chieftain of a Jurchen tribe in northeastern Manchuria. He is considered to be the founding father of the Manchu state and is also credited with ordering the creation of a written script for the Manchu language. Nurhaci's organisation of the Manchu people, his attacks on the Ming Dynasty and Joseon Dynasty Korea, and his conquest of China's northeastern Liaodong province, laid the groundwork for the conquest of China by the Qing Dynasty.

Being a member of the Gioro (clan) of the Suksuhu River tribe, Nurhaci also claimed descent from Mönke Timur, a Jurchen headman who lived some two centuries earlier. He named his clan Aisin Gioro around 1612, when he formally ascended the throne. In 1582 his father Taksi and grandfather Giocangga led by the Ming Dynasty General Li Chengliang, were killed in an attack on Gure (see Jianzhou Jurchens) by a rival Jurchen cheiftain Nikan Wailan. The Aisin Gioro family originated in present day North Korea. According to Chinese sources, the young man grew up as a hostage in the household of Li Chengliang in Fushun, where he became literate in Chinese.


___________

No flaming please

[qlittlemon]

[quote=gangi788,Feb 18 2006, 10:26 AM]
Some Mongolian members have asked what is the blood relationship between Manchu and Korean? I would like to know myself. Below is a bit of background information.

Nurhaci

Also known as Emperor Tai Zu, Nurhaci or Nurgaci (Chinese: 努爾哈赤; Manchu: ) (1559-September 30, 1626; r. 1616-September 30, 1626) was the chieftain of a Jurchen tribe in northeastern Manchuria. He is considered to be the founding father of the Manchu state and is also credited with ordering the creation of a written script for the Manchu language. Nurhaci's organisation of the Manchu people, his attacks on the Ming Dynasty and Joseon Dynasty Korea, and his conquest of China's northeastern Liaodong province, laid the groundwork for the conquest of China by the Qing Dynasty.

Being a member of the Gioro (clan) of the Suksuhu River tribe, Nurhaci also claimed descent from Mönke Timur, a Jurchen headman who lived some two centuries earlier. He named his clan Aisin Gioro around 1612, when he formally ascended the throne. In 1582 his father Taksi and grandfather Giocangga led by the Ming Dynasty General Li Chengliang, were killed in an attack on Gure (see Jianzhou Jurchens) by a rival Jurchen cheiftain Nikan Wailan. The Aisin Gioro family originated in present day North Korea. According to Chinese sources, the young man grew up as a hostage in the household of Li Chengliang in Fushun, where he became literate in Chinese.
___________


Nurhaci accurately named his family clan Aisin Giori.

AISIN means ..... GOLD
GIORO means ..... CLAN/TRIBE
= in his native Manchu dialect

Korea's Kim clans ( they might deny though ) share the same tribal heritage with several ancient nomadic tribes populated Jilin and Liaoning provinces.Kingdom of GOLD replaced N Soong dynasty is one example,founded by Wen-Yen Ah Gu Ta

Ancient Korean kingdom Paekche was created by Puyo tribes driven out of northern part of Jilin.Ancient records indicated native given first names began with " Ah ".Ancient nomadic people didn't have surnames,later adopted many Han Chinese family names during the long process of Sinicization of Korea Peninsula.

My half-sister is married to somewhat Korean-looking Taiwan born Manchu origin ( though not pure blood ) with last name " WEN ",his dad explained to him WEN-YEN is their family full compound surname.

[Anda]

(IMG:http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/anda_mn/nm_manchu2.gif)
I wish to discuss about Manchu Cultures more than its physical attribute

Origin of Manchu alphabet
The Manchu alphabet was commissioned in 1599 by the Manchu leader Nurhaci (1559-1626), the founder of the Manchu state. The letters are based on the Classical Mongolian alphabet while the phonetics are based on Jurchen, an earlier Manchu script. The alphabet was modified slightly in 1632.

In 1644 the Manchus conquered China and established the Ch'ing (Qing) dynasty, which lasted until 1911. For the first 200 years or so of the Ch'ing dynasty, Manchu was the main language of government in China and served as a lingua franca. By the mid 19th century many of the Manchus had adopted Chinese as their first language, however they continued to produce Manchu version of Chinese documents until the end of the dynasty and for sometime afterwards.
Manchu, a member of the Tungusic group of Altaic languages. There are currently about 9 million Manchus living in north-eastern China, of whom between 70 and 1,000 speak Manchu. Most speak only Mandarin.

In Xinjiang in the west of China there are about 27,000 people known as Sibe, Xibo or Sibo who speak a language closely related to Manchu, though they consider themselves a separte ethnic group. The Sibe were moved to the region in 1764 by the Ch'ing emperor Qianlong.
(IMG:http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/anda_mn/mongol7.gif) (IMG:http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/anda_mn/manchu3.gif) (IMG:http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/anda_mn/manchu.gif)

[SARAN]

Some Mongolian members have asked what is the blood relationship between Manchu and Korean? I would like to know myself. Below is a bit of background information.

gangi788, thank you for remembering my question (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) Hope you guys will give us sufficient information about it.

[SARAN]

Ancient Korean kingdom Paekche was created by Puyo tribes driven out of northern part of Jilin.

So who were the people of Puyo tribes in Jilin at that time? manchurians or ancient koreans? Where is Jilin now? in China?

[Kultigin]

Isnt the mongolian script the loaned script from Uygurs?

This post has been edited by Kultigin: Feb 18 2006, 04:38 PM

[gangi788]

I hope Santa starts posting. He's actually the expert here. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Anda]

Isnt the mongolian script the loaned script from Uygurs?

In 1208 Chinggis Khan defeated the Naiman, and captured their Uygur scribe Tatatunga, who apparently adapted the Uygur alphabet to write Mongolian.

The Uighur alphabet was a derivative of the Sogdian alphabet, which ultimately came from Aramaic.

And Manchu letters are based on the Classical Mongolian alphabet while the phonetics are based on Jurchen, an earlier Manchu script. The alphabet was modified slightly in 1632.

What a long way, it originated in present day Israel.
From Aramaic (the language Jesus Christ spoke ) to Sogdian, from Sogdian to Uigur, from Uigur to Mongolian, then Manchu....


note about Aramaic
Aramaic was once the main language of the Jews and appears in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is still used as a liturgical language by Christian communities in Syria, Lebanon and Iraq, and is still spoken by small numbers of people in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, Armenia, Georgia and Syria.

[Kultigin]

Anda thanks for clearing it up bro.

[Your_Overlord]

Ethnically, Manchu's are not Koreans. But I think that the founder of the Jin Dyansty (during the Mongol hordes era) was originally from Shilla or something. His clan name is Wen-Yan. However, the Jurchens that followed him were distinct from Koreans, that is why the Jin forced Korea into vassalage rather than incorporating them into the empire. Outside of that, I don't think Koreans, at least since Shilla's reunification of the peninsula, was much like the Manchus at all.

Also keep in mind that Manchus and Xibes are SOUTHWEST Tungustic tribes, which is actually quite far away from the Korean Peninsula.

This post has been edited by Your_Overlord: Feb 18 2006, 07:14 PM

[Darkblade]

I hope Santa starts posting. He's actually the expert here.  (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

I hope he wont bring han chinese inside his argument, he knows china better than a chinese (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/embarassedlaugh.gif) tsk tsk tsk

[qlittlemon]

So who were the people of Puyo tribes in Jilin at that time? manchurians or ancient koreans? Where is Jilin now? in China?

According to ancient Chinese history records ( Modern day Korean historians also rely on these sources to write some of their ancient Chosun history ),Puyo tribes came down from north meaning today's Siberia not Central Asia as nationalistic Koreans claim the land of origin roots for ALL Koreans.Jilin is today's China's NORTHEAST province locates right above N Korea,it was southern part of old Manchuria.Puyo were ancestors of modern day Manchus and Koreans who can trace their family roots to this particular region.Kim families have heritage ties ( though they might deny ) to Puyo later day Manchurians.

[qlittlemon]

Ethnically, Manchu's are not Koreans.  But I think that the founder of the Jin Dyansty (during the Mongol hordes era) was originally from Shilla or something.  His clan name is Wen-Yan.  However, the Jurchens that followed him were distinct from Koreans, that is why the Jin forced Korea into vassalage rather than incorporating them into the empire.  Outside of that, I don't think Koreans, at least since Shilla's reunification of the peninsula, was much like the Manchus at all. 

Also keep in mind that Manchus and Xibes are SOUTHWEST Tungustic tribes, which is actually quite far away from the Korean Peninsula.

Corrections .... WEN-YEN,a Jurchen tribe founded Kingdom of Jin ( meaning = GOLD ) which brought down Soong Dynasty originated in today's Jilin province NOT from Kingdom of Silla located southeast Korea peninsula.My brother-in-law has this compound surname is of Manchu origin,his family didn't come from Korea peninsula.

Xibes ( Xian Bei ) are Mongol tribes populated Northern old Manchuria ( today's Heilongjiang province ) and Inner Mongolia.Those semi-Tungusic Jurchens were very much situated for many centeries in today's China's Jilin province above N Korea.

[Anda]

Anda thanks for clearing it up bro.

YOU ARE VERY WELCOME. (IMG:http://www.asiafinest.com/forum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[出家人]

Ethnically, Manchu's are not Koreans.  But I think that the founder of the Jin Dyansty (during the Mongol hordes era) was originally from Shilla or something.  His clan name is Wen-Yan.  However, the Jurchens that followed him were distinct from Koreans, that is why the Jin forced Korea into vassalage rather than incorporating them into the empire.  Outside of that, I don't think Koreans, at least since Shilla's reunification of the peninsula, was much like the Manchus at all. 

Also keep in mind that Manchus and Xibes are SOUTHWEST Tungustic tribes, which is actually quite far away from the Korean Peninsula.

Wanyan Aguda was from Shilla? You sure? First time I heard of that...

[lostn]

The Jurchen were probably from the Malgal tribes listed in Korean records. You see when Tang invaders destroyed Gogoryeo, some of the remnant of Gogoryeo fled into Manchuria and founded Palhae state. But, later in Sung Dynasty it was destroyed by Khitans. The Malgal probably later become Jurchen. And about Puyo- (Gogoryeo, Baekjae), they were probably only the invading and founding elite class of Koreans. But, most peasant Koreans still descend from the older Go-Chosun natives.

[MING-LOYALIST]

The founder of the Wan Yan tribe of the Golden Empire could have been from Koryo not Shilla.

[lostn]

There are Siberian tribes in Russia who have name meaning "GOLD" too. Like for example, the Nenet and Nanai tribes. They are similar to the old Jurchen too.

[MING-LOYALIST]

There are Siberian tribes in Russia who have name meaning "GOLD" too.  Like for example, the Nenet and Nanai tribes.  They are similar to the old Jurchen too.

The Jurchens living north of the Amur river were known as wild Jurchens, they formed the main attack force, probrably very close cousins of Nenets and Nanai.

[SARAN]

Puyo were ancestors of modern day Manchus and Koreans who can trace their family roots to this particular region.Kim families have heritage ties ( though they might deny ) to Puyo later day Manchurians.

So Koreans and Manchurians do share some same heritage? at least some of them?